Joe Bauer

My God!

In the second photo we see the uniformed DPD white cap wearing Croy looking "directly at Ruby!"

Just seconds before Ruby leaps past another DPD officer friend of his - big William "Blackie" Harrison who is right in front ( just inches in front! ) of both Croy and Ruby!

The boldly brazen aggression face of the new Republican party.

Tribalism, personified.

Maga Maj ... 

You go girl!

Just a thought about DPD Chief Curry.

It seemed that later on in his life after the weekend of 11/22/1963 thru 11/24/1963 he became more remorsefully reflective and perhaps even doubt expressing regards what may have been the truth regarding the JFK event.

Here we go again with "speculation" but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Curry knew he had been wrongly pressured by other higher forces to handle Oswald the way he did with a publicly announced daytime transfer move with a franticly yelling, shoving, easily breached press circus all around.

And especially the 11/24/1963 transfer of Oswald with general time frame public notice, in broad daylight with that crazy DPD basement tightly cramped, press crunch scene which made it possible for Jack Ruby to breach and kill the most important criminal suspect in American history. 

Curry had to at least entertain the thought he had been used by these other higher ups in allowing Oswald's transfer to be a setup for killing him.

Now, in this thread some keep dwelling on the motive of Billy Grammer waiting so many years to publicly state he felt the 11/24/1963 Oswald threat call-in caller was Jack Ruby, whom he knew. That because he waited so long to proclaim his Ruby caller ID, it invalidates his statement integrity and believability.

I countered with a previously stated speculation that Grammer may very well have waited until his 32 year built up pension was locked in to share his story.

With my lifetime experience common sense I know that pensions are as important to their earners, perhaps over everything else in their later life.

More important than sharing truths that may rock the world yet may threaten those pensions. So, I feel the pension protecting motive is a very logical one to consider.

Back to Curry.

Imagine that Curry knew he had been set up with pressuring by higher ups regards Oswald's security handling in his custody.

That Oswald's famous "I AM JUST A PATSY" shout out to the world press may have been just as applicable to Curry!

However, where could Curry go with such world shocking knowledge?

If he shared his honest feelings about this mind blowing scenario...what would it mean for him ... and his family...forever?

Even if he wrote it all down in a secret diary only to be released upon his death.

His future generation offspring would be afflicted the rest of their lives with a Curry blame legacy burden that Curry himself probably could not bear to even imagine.

This type of Curry thought and action motive speculation for never admitting what he truly knew about the killing of Oswald in his departments custody makes as much common sense to me as any other.

And I feel certain that many others in high positions in this country back then, withheld similarly earth rocking JFK event truths ( until and past their dying days ) for this same exact reason.

Could Curry have too?

Very possibly imo.

5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

There are several reasons for this threat to be taken more seriously, and elevated to Chief Curry ... the caller:

1. first asked for Grammer (by name)
2. described details surrounding Oswald's transfer later that day (i.e., had inside knowledge of police plans)
3. expressed concern for the safety of the officers and personnel in the basement of City Hall
4. didn't want Oswald murdered and (unlike other crank calls) was interested in his safe transfer to the county jail.

As David Josephs and John Armstrong write, "the purpose of Ruby’s phone calls was to provide the police with a reason to transfer Oswald quietly and secretly to the county jail, thereby making it impossible to complete his assignment to kill Oswald during the transfer".  From Hurt's book:

There were numerous crank calls from people threatening Oswald, as well as from people who wanted to offer information. Late in the evening, one of the women on the switchboard received a call from a man who asked her to look around the room and to name the police officers who were there. He explained to her that he wanted to talk to someone that he knew. The woman began telling the caller the names of different men in the communications room. When she named Billy Grammer, the caller stated that he knew Grammer and that he wanted to speak to him.

The caller began speaking of details of the transfer plans that were not known even to Grammer. He motioned for one of his superiors to listen in on the call. Lieutenant Henry Putnam came in on the line and listened. The caller described precise details of the transfer plans. As the man spoke, Grammer did not know whether or not the details were correct. The caller described the decoy vehicle that would be sent out with red lights and sirens and police escorts, only to be followed a little later with the real car containing Oswald.

Hurt goes on to describe how two inspectors from the Dallas Police Department later questioned Billy Grammer about the call ... probably the follow-up Task Force appointed by Chief Curry on November 29th (the same day that Lyndon Johnson appointed the Warren Commission). Initially, they were tasked with finding out how Ruby got into the basement, and whether Ruby and Oswald knew each other. The Task Force was abruptly disbanded six weeks later, when DPD turned over its investigative material to the Texas Attorney General, Waggoner Carr.  Billy Grammer explained to the Task Force the report submitted to Chief Curry, and that Lieutenant Putnam supported his version of events. However, the reported warnings that are in the record - the ones the police concede were ignored - did not include the caller's knowledge of the inside plans for the transfer - which Ruby uniquely had pursued and acquired throughout the weekend - likely because that aspect would've been very damaging to DPD's reputation.

If Ruby were under the control of powers that ordered him to murder Oswald—powerful enough to make him do so—then there was but one way for Ruby to escape his duty. He would have to be thwarted in his effort. A thwarted Ruby could tell his masters that he did the best he could, and surely that would be better for him than what was inevitable if he were successful, or if he refused to try. 

In an Education Forum thread from 2016-2020, "Who Was jack Ruby?", Andrej Stancak explained out how Curry was manipulated by the mayor and a Dallas city manager. Curry has initially intended to transfer Oswald secretly at 2am.  Sunday evening (after Oswald was murdered), Chief Curry told Sergeant Stavis Ellis that city manager Elgin Crull and Mayor Earle Cabell insisted on the transfer in front of cameras and newsmen. Sergeant Ellis later testified:

“Chief Curry told me that evening,” I want you and one jockey to come down here, and we’re going to move Oswald to the county jail at two o’clock and nobody know about it.”

But Elgin Crull and Earle Cabell overruled Chief Curry's orders:

“No, you will not do that! You will notify the news and media and the press so that they can be in the basement with their lights and cameras set up before you move him.” 

The Warren Commission attorneys suspected DPD complicity in Ruby's access to City Hall basement ... but Earl Warren put a stop to that inquiry, after DA Wade and none other than LBJ interceded. Here is what David Josephs and John Armstong wrote: 

Burt Griffin and Leon Hubert were convinced that Ruby had been stalking Oswald. They knew that Ruby’s presence at City Hall on Sunday morning was not coincidental, and they knew that Ruby somehow entered the basement for the purpose of killing Oswald. Griffin wrote a memo to J. L. Rankin, the WC chief counsel, explaining “I believe it likely Ruby came in by another entrance to a point where Dean could have stopped him and that Dean... is trying to conceal his dereliction of duty”. On May 15, 1964, both Griffin and Leon Hubert sent a memo to J. Lee Rankin with a list of areas that needed further investigation and a list of people they wanted to question. Sgt. Dean complained about Griffin’s accusation to D.A. Wade, who then called President Lyndon Johnson at his ranch in Texas and told him about the Dean/Griffin confrontation. Seth Kantor acknowledged that President Johnson began to exert pressure on Earl Warren. Griffin was not allowed to confront Dean at the Warren-Dean meeting. The WC soon recalled Griffin from Dallas and the investigation of the Dallas Police stopped.

It all fits together, once you assemble all the pieces of the puzzle.

Gene

GK, thank you for this excellent and thoroughly informing summary.

It answers so many questions and with multiple source citations.

Here are some Grammer call "factoids" ( a LP likes to cite ) that even B. Brown can't refute.

There was an Oswald threat call-in to the DPD around 2:am the early morning of 11,23,1963.

The caller first asked for the names of the officers present and when Grammer's name was mentioned, the caller asked to be connected to him.

The callers comments to Grammer were so specifically curious including Oswald transfer details, that Grammer motioned for his superior officer Putnam to listen in. Which Putman did.

We then know that "two" officers overheard the caller's words.

We know this as fact because the report submitted to Curry was signed by both officers.

We know that this call was alarmingly important enough in the minds of Grammer and Putnam for them to go to the unusual length of presenting it to a super busy chief Curry at that chaotic highest tension time.

Two other very similar detail Oswald threat calls were received by the Sheriff's office and the local FBI "sequentially" within the next 15 to 30 minutes following the first DPD call.

We know that Curry was highly pressured by Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell and the city manager to transfer Oswald in broad daylight with press present.

Countermanding any suggestion of moving Oswald unannounced in the dark of night with no press notification.

No one, not even B. Brown or the late J. McAdams can offer anything but a "speculation" as to the reason Grammer waited so long to publicly state he felt he recognized the Oswald threat call-in caller as Jack Ruby.

Speculations of rational, honest minded reasons like protecting one's pension are as valid as any other...imo anyways.

6 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

 

And I would remind people, any supposed spacecraft able to travel thousands of light years to us would also have the tech to not get shot down by our meager earthly aircraft.

 

That's what I said.

I'm still curious.

Why would Grammer and Putnam take a report of this "one" Oswald threat call and take it to Curry?

Gene, as you mentioned, there must have been hundreds of Oswald threat calls received by the DPD.

So, why take one this more seriously over all others?

Was it because the caller stated details about the transfer only an insider would know?

It sounds as if Grammer and Putnam did not mention Jack Ruby in their 11/23/1963 report.

Also Hurt states Grammer's comments regards the caller saying Grammer would know him but he couldn't tell him his name?

If Grammer is telling the truth with that statement, it does add a least some weight to the possibility the caller was Jack Ruby...no?

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Grammer said that when he asked the caller who he was, he replied, "I can't tell you that, but you know me." The caller also said, "We are going to kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the basement tomorrow." and urged that DPD change their schedule. Grammer reported the call to the watch officer, Lieutenant Putnam, who told him to type up a report. He did so and the two of them brought it to Chief Curry's office." 

Gene

Gene, so there were even more detailed aspects of the callers message.

He said "in the basement tomorrow." ?  That's a bombshell.

So, again, was it the specific logistical details in the call-in message that prompted Grammer and Putman to make a report of the call and take it directly to their Chief? Details 99.999% of other threat makers wouldn't know?

Did Grammer also mention his belief that the caller was Jack Ruby to Chief Curry?

The caller says to Grammer ( after Grammer asks who he is ) "I can't tell you that but you know me." ???

Again, mind blowing.

Now, the FBI certainly taped their calls back then.

Just another tid-bit they withheld from the Warren Commission?

YEAH ROSIE O'DONNELL!

YOU GO GIRL!

At least three UFOs have been shot down from North American skies in recent days (in addition to that Chinese spy balloon) and nobody seem to give AF. Except for Rosie O’Donnell.

“OK, what’s the deal with the UFOs?” she said. “The first one was a ‘weather balloon.’ Do we still use weather balloons? We shot that down and then there was another one. And now there’s more. And everyone’s just acting like it’s a normal Monday.”

“Let’s put things into perspective here. We’re being contacted by extraterrestrials. Isn’t this bigger news? Shouldn’t everyone have off the day at school or something? Nobody go to work. Let’s figure out what to do.”

She continued, “I don’t get it. I mean, we’re shooting down what they say very well could be and is alien-related spacecraft. Hello?”

“It’s happening. It’s really happening. And no one seems to give a sh*t but me.”

So now we have "two" Oswald threat call-ins to both the Sheriff's office and the FBI?

Was Grammer a Sheriff or a Dallas PD officer?

But let me get some clarification here.

As Gene notes there were probably dozens if not hundreds of calls coming into the authorities threatening Oswald.

Maybe even many others blaming Dallas for JFK's death?

So, what made Grammer feel that this one Oswald threat call-in was different or more worthy of taking it all the way to Curry's office?

Surely, there were many other Oswald death threats coming in?

Was the reason for pushing this one Oswald threat call all the way up to the Chief's office because Grammer recognized the voice as Jack Ruby?

Or was it that the threat making person knew details about Oswald's transfer that the average nut threat person just could not know?

8 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

I've come to a pretty solid conclusion it wasn't a "security failure". Too much weighs against it. Protecting him should have been easy.

Was the alleged Ruby call-in to DPD dispatcher Grammer tape recorded?

Or didn't they do that back in 1963?

The car horn honks?

Everything involved with that overly crowded basement circus was illogically suspicious so maybe the honks were too.

However, I could understand the driver of the backing up car honking a couple of times to give all the busy and occupied personnel behind him on the ramp some type of physical warning to get out of the way?

17 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

It was Sergeant Deans job to have secured the area, not Will Fritz. 

Will Fritz assumed Sergeant Dean had already secured the area when he walked out ahead of LHO. 

Then Sergeant Dean was responsible for Ruby breaching the press crowd and not being noticed and removed. And Fritz and especially Chief Curry were over-all responsible for Dean and everyone else assigned with Oswald's security. 

100 million+ American's watched the "ultimate" Oswald security failure happen right in front of their eyes.

Including every member of our government and military like Nicholas Katzenbach. I am sure most of them reacted with disturbed gut-wrenching shock, suspicion and fist pounding on tables anger.

Weren't there immediate demands by our highest rank and position leaders for firings of those responsible for this impossibly improbable JFK truth destroying failure? And for a massive "independent" investigation of the DPD?

You would rationally expect every government agency and every major news media including TV and Newspaper corporations to have gone all out in that regards.

NBC television went bananas on Jim Garrison. Oswald's killing while inside the Dallas PD building should have garnered at least as much investigation attention and effort, no?

56 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Bill

I don't want to try to change your mind or convince you, as you seem fixed on the idea that Grammer waited too long to share his story.  All you assert is that his story only publicly surfaced with the 1988 documentary ... but we don't know whether he had shared that story prior with others (I suspect he did).  He was a long-time DPD officer (32 years) and retired in 1986 ... if I were in his shoes, I would've concluded that I did my job, informed my superiors, and therefore let the chips fall where they may. Why would he want to publicly embarrass the DPD, or go against the grain of the "official" story?  He wasn't the only person/group to have been warned early that morning ... which is a documented fact. Two years after his retirement, his story became more widely known ... so what?  There are a number of plausible reasons for that, but it would be pure speculation at this point - yours seem to be that he fabricated his story - why do you think he "kept quiet"? 

You appear to be cut/pasting dated John McAdams' arguments from 20 years ago ... perhaps you could present a more cogent or original rationale for why we should reject this Grammer story. 

Gene

PS.  No need to reply ..."sea-lioning" with relentless requests for evidence doesn't accomplish anything. 

Exactly.

Grammer told Curry about the call and his suspicion that it was Jack Ruby who made it before the transfer, right?

What else could Grammer do if Curry tossed the report in the trash?

I love the suggestion that Grammer may have waited until his pension was fixed to tell his tale.

Let me tell you...in my lifetime experience of 71 years in America a person's pension is one of the top priorities of their life. Seriously, it is.

I could easily believe Grammer not wanting to endanger his pension as a main reason for not sharing his story publicly until after 1986.

If Grammer did inform Curry of the Oswald transfer threat call and mentioned Jack Ruby as the caller, Curry kept this fact from everyone the rest of his life.

Obviously because if it became known he ignored his internal staff Ruby threat warning...he looks even more negligent and responsible for his department's complete Oswald security failure.

AND, it would throw any trial of Jack Ruby into indefensible chaos as well.

Gene, Michael...

I thought all calls in to the police by the public were tape recorded, even back then...no?

Maybe "non-emergency" calls weren't?

But the call to Grammer was a direct call to the main police station hot line.

You would also assume that this contact by Grammer and his immediate higher rank officer, brought directly to Curry's attention and being so out of the ordinary, that Curry and whoever else was responsible for the Oswald transfer security would have at least had it checked out by someone, even a lower level PD member.

And didn't Grammer state to Curry his suspicion that he recognized the caller as Jack Ruby?

Imagine Curry having to acknowledge officer Grammer's "Jack Ruby" ID call in warning after Ruby killed Oswald as the greatest warning ignoring blunder in his life?

And Grammer wasn't called to testify to any of the JFK assassination investigative hearings?

Niether the WC, HSCA and ARRP one?

Gil, I just watched this clip 10X.

Every time I do I feel just as sick with angry suspicion and outrage as the morning I saw this live on national TV myself at the age of 12 on 11,24,1963.

So many absurdly blatant and obvious security lapses a rational observer is "forced" to consider Oswald's killing by Ruby as a set up more than just ignorant incompetence negligence.

Just off the top of my head I can immediately see at least a dozen major lapses!

One's an idle thought teenager could have recognized.

In no order:

That runway from the elevator door entrance to the waiting transport car and press crowd is very tight and short and with 15 or more men lined side by side there already very crowded.

With the hallway/walkway already packed with police and you have another dozen ( or two?) frantic newsmen pressing forward like they were it looked like Oswald's security march goal was mostly just to keep a clear path for them to get Oswald into any vehicle at all.

Also, the parked car at the bottom of the tightly filled ramp was just another blocking-in impediment that made everything even more closed in.

There was really hardly any room for Oswald's security to pull Oswald back into a secure safe area in case something occurred there.

And no one even thought about putting up a simple theater event rope or police tape barrier to keep the expectedly aggressive press from surging so close to Oswald?

Or how about Sergeant Patrick Dean and a couple of his men physically positioning themselves between Oswald and the surging press crowd? 

Were was Dean when Ruby jumped out?

A crowd barrier of any kind might have provided just enough of a physical impediment to slow Ruby's leap and run towards Oswald. Maybe enough time for Oswald's two side escorts Leavelle and Graves and other personnel to block Ruby's frontal charge?

Even I as a 12 year old, immediately noticed Oswald seeming to be too wide open "in front" during that perp walk. 

And his side guards also seemed much more visually looking not at the press crowd to their left, but more straight ahead at the parked car.

Leavelle only turned his attention to his left after Ruby had already made it to within inches of Oswald. 

I knew even then Oswald was perhaps the most threatened criminal suspect in American history. Yet, Oswald seemed less tightly guarded than Buffalo Bob and Howdy Doody whom I had seen once at an appearance.

I thought Oswald would have been ( should have been ) tightly surrounded all around by physical human body protection. Not just at his sides.

Seeing this clip again, we also clearly see how close Ruby was to his long time close DPD police officer friend big William "Blackie" Harrison.

Ruby was just inches next to Harrison as he began his charge out to Oswald.

Another "lucky" circumstance for Ruby? He had the huge bulky body of his friend Harrison to hide behind right up until his charge.

And didn't officer Harrison look at anywhere else but straight ahead toward Oswald as Oswald was coming toward him?

What was Harrison's reason for being in the front of the press crowd in the first place anyway?  Security...right?

One rationally must assume he was placed there to keep the crowd back and maybe even look back at the crowd occasionally especially when Oswald was feet away?

Was "anybody" watching the press crowd while Oswald was being led right to it?

Captain Will Fritz seemed strangely out of it in his drifting ahead walk away from Oswald during Oswald's march down the hallway. He gazes almost emptily at the car ahead instead of the crowd and Oswald and waves his hands about at imaginary figures as if to clear them away from the car?

And when Ruby's gun fired with the loudness of a cannon shot, everyone in the pics of the scene jumped with startled shock.

Everyone but the "out-of-it" Fritz. It took Fritz a second or two to even show "any" reaction to the BOOM shot!

There should have been a line of press crowd blocking officer's, especially when Oswald was just feet away from them.

Where were they? Officer Patrick Dean ( the uniform police squad leader ) was up the ramp?

I noticed also in this viewing that there was more time between Ruby first bursting out from the press line and his getting as close to Oswald as he did than I had noticed before.

Ruby had a few feet of distance to cover, and he had to circle out a little to come in towards Oswald's front. He had come from Oswald's left side. His foot steps shuffling was more than just one or two steps only.

I think officers Levealle and L.C. Graves didn't react as quickly as they have claimed they did.

What a crazily cramped physical scene situation that was. Tight hallway, too many people for the space provided, cars blocking the exit ramp in case of an emergency, bad lighting inside that garage.

And throw in a "publicly announced" general time frame of the Oswald transfer move to boot.

Great security job protecting the most threatened ( and most important ) criminal suspect in America's history there DPD Chief Curry.

And for dismissing many warnings from others regards the risk of such a broad daylight transfer plan instead of an unannounced one in the natural cover of nighttime darkness.

The greatest criminal suspect security lapse failure in American history...and no one got fired for it  !!! ???

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"Democrat California Sen. Dianne Feinstein appeared unaware of her own retirement announcement Tuesday, telling a group of reporters at the Capitol that she hadn't made a decision on her future despite announcing just hours before that she would not be seeking reelection in 2024.

According to multiple reports, a Feinstein staffer quickly notified the senator that a statement had already been made on her retirement, prompting her to say she was unaware the information had been released.

Reporters present for the interaction quickly took to Twitter to report on Feinstein's apparent confusion."

---30---

Sad. Can happen to any of us. 

Tom Brady to make yet another comeback? 

If true...it is so important for her to step down "now."

She's been showing significant mental decline for years now.

Our nation needs senators to be sharp for a million important reasons.

For her to keep herself in her seat for the next almost 2 years is extremely selfish and not in the best interests of us Californians.

1 minute ago, Bill Brown said:

 

You don't really believe any of that, do you?

 

I'm familiar with the Grammer claim and none of that answered my question.

 

Grammer and his supervisor prepared a sworn affidavit in which Grammer identified Ruby as the caller that very night?  I call bullsh*t on that one.

 

During Ruby's trial, Bill Alexander (and in effect, Henry Wade) were trying to prove that Ruby murdered Oswald with malice and forethought.  They wanted the death penalty.  If Ruby really did make that phone call and Grammer really did recognize that it was Ruby, then Grammer would have been their star witness during Ruby's trial since he (Grammer) would have been the perfect witness to prove malice and forethought on Ruby's part.  Despite this, we do not hear from Grammer until 1988 in The Men Who Killed Kennedy.

 

BB...

Without an actual tape recording of the Ruby call to Grammar, Henry Wade could not present Grammer in trial without such.

Otherwise Grammer's claim would just be passed off as subjective hearsay.

58 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!

Marjorie Taylor Greene, George Santos, Donald Trump reality show tops them all!

Grammer made his story up?

He didn't know Jack Ruby well enough to confidently claim it was Ruby on the other end of that call?

Sometimes one has to weigh certain facts against others and simply use their life time experience common sense to decide who and what to believe in situations of truth determination.

Grammer was a Lieutenant on the police force? Finished a full career in police work.

Didn't have any history of odd or bad behavior or disciplinary actions?

Grammer certainly didn't make a dime off of his public recounting Ruby call.

At some point a rational person just has to decide whether someone like Grammer is telling the truth or mistaken and why a person like him would go out on a limb and publicly say what he did.

The man was in the work station he claimed he was and at the time he said he was.

Did he ever go back on public record later in his life and express that he may have been mistaken regards his Ruby call claim?

There are many JFK/Oswald/Ruby connected characters in the whole affair whom we all must decide whether they told the truth in their claims.

I don't like to be duped like a fool into believing just any claims regarding such a massively important event in our lives. My personal sense of intelligent integrity is at stake and I care about it.

With that said here are "some" of the actors and their claims I "have" decided to believe regards the JFK event. Many from humble working class people who never gained by coming forward and in many cases were burdened by doing so.

Sylvia and Annie Odio.

Virgina Murchison housekeeper Mae Newman.

Louisiana state policeman Francis Fruge.

Dallas County Sheriff Al Maddox.

Guy Banister part time investigator Jack Martin.

New Orlean's Habana bar owner Orest Pena.

New Orleans booking police officer Aloysius Habighorst to whom Clay Shaw admitted one of his aliases was "Clay Bertrand."

Dallas police dispatcher Lieutenant Billy Grammer.

Billy Sol Estes regards the true massive level of corruption of LBJ, including LBJ's involvement with the murder of Henry Marshall and probably others.

Army Special Forces Lt. Colonel Dan Marvin.

Miami police informant Willie Somersett. etc. etc.

William "Blackie" Harrison.

One of Ruby's closest and longest known DPD friends on the force.

Ruby is inches from and behind Harrison when Ruby bounds out of the press crowd to whack Oswald.

Didn't Harrison ever once look behind himself at the press crowd instead of straight ahead at Oswald as Oswald was being led toward the press crowd?

Wasn't Harrison's job imbedded into the press crowd to make sure no one in this crowd did what Jack Ruby did? Security?

42 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

42 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Factoid time!  Ruby said he got up at 9:30, took a double dose of the diet pills that made him mean and agitated ...

and then " he patiently waited in line" at Western Union while another customer did his business.   ???

 

Took two pills that made him "mean and agitated"

And then waited "patiently" while another customer did his business?

The two "factoid" accounts contradict each other.

James Humes testimony to the ARRB in 1996 regards JFK's brain not being weighed during the 11,22/23/1963 Bethesda autopsy.

Page 74

Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about this. First, was this document, Exhibit 1, in your possession at any point during which you were writing the autopsy protocol?
A. Probably. Probably was. Over the weekend, yeah.
Q. I'd like to draw your attention to a few items on the first page of this document. Right next to the marking for brain, there's no entry of a weight there. Do you see that on the document?
A. Yes, I see that it's blank, yeah.
Q. Why is there no weight for the brain there?
A. I don't know. I don't really--can't really recall why.
Q. Was the fresh brain weighed?
A. I don't recall. I don't recall. It's as simple as that.
Q. Would it be standard practice for a gunshot wound in the head to have the brain weighed?
A. Yeah, we weigh it with gunshot wound or

Page 75

no. Normally we weigh the brain when we remove it. I can't recall why--I don't know, one, whether it was weighed or not, or, two, why it doesn't show here. I have no explanation for that.

Page 74

Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about this. First, was this document, Exhibit 1, in your possession at any point during which you were writing the autopsy protocol?
A. Probably. Probably was. Over the weekend, yeah.
Q. I'd like to draw your attention to a few items on the first page of this document. Right next to the marking for brain, there's no entry of a weight there. Do you see that on the document?
A. Yes, I see that it's blank, yeah.
Q. Why is there no weight for the brain there?
A. I don't know. I don't really--can't really recall why.
Q. Was the fresh brain weighed?
A. I don't recall. I don't recall. It's as simple as that.
Q. Would it be standard practice for a gunshot wound in the head to have the brain weighed?
A. Yeah, we weigh it with gunshot wound or

Page 75

no. Normally we weigh the brain when we remove it. I can't recall why--I don't know, one, whether it was weighed or not, or, two, why it doesn't show here. I have no explanation for that.

3 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 

NORAD Doesn't Rule Out Aliens, NYT Changes Story On It (mediaite.com)

It always puzzled me to read that any human weapon ever took down an ET craft.

The technological superiority any alien space travel civilization would have to have to traverse space like that would logically include defense systems way beyond our own offensive weapons technology.

I've viewed a You Tube video interview recently where the "inside knowledge" interviewee stated that two ET spacecrafts came down during the Roswell incident.

That they were brought down because "they crashed into each other."

Nothing we humans did brought them down.

I would assume any ET crafts or even their unoccupied automated probes would not be susceptible to human weapons damage risks.