Michael Clark

Info on rifle research

7 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Joe,

Of course -- there are loud detractors out there who deny that LHO ever owned a rifle at all -- or that the Oswalds ever lived at Neeley Street in the first place. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, I have had way too much time to spend on this forum in the last 3 months. Until yesterday I have not seen a single claim the LHO did not own a rifle. Until today I have not seen a single claim that the Oswalds never lived on Neely.

Cheers,

Mike

3 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

We have too many witnesses who saw the Oswald's at the Neeley Street address.  Besides the DM's, there were others in the Dallas Russian community.   Gary Taylor is another.   Michael Paine.  Ruth Paine.  Why would they lie?  What would they possible have to hide or gain?  

Marina Oswald said she took one (and only one) of the BYP photographs.  Why in the world would she lie about it?   No reason.

One would have to coordinate a dozen people to tell the same like under oath -- why would they cooperate?   No reason.

Isn't it simply paranoid to claim that all these people were lying in concert?   I can't think of another word for it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

That should follow a quote from a member who disputes the Neely street residency.

Cheers,

Michael

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Yes -- Ron Lewis, who knew LHO in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 wrote in 1993 that he saw LHO with his rifle in New Orleans.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, with all due respect, and thanks, for your responses and information that you have so graciously offered, 

that is a slice of cheese for a sandwich that has long-since been eaten.

Cheers,

Michael

15 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

David, 

You keep jumping to conclusions.  

Harry Dean, for example, wrote in his manuscript, Crossroads (1990), that he helped Loran Hall and Larry Howard load up their trailer in Southern California in mid-September 1963, with paramilitary supplies bound for New Orleans.  Harry also says that Gabby Gabaldon gave Loran Hall a wad of cash to pick up Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans and drive him to Mexico City.

So -- LHO was a passenger in a car to Mexico City, and Loran Hall was also a paramilitary mercenary who was very comfortable hauling guns around.  

It is well-known that LHO lied continually to Marina Oswald, but sometimes he couldn't hide the truth.  Marina knew LHO had a rifle and a pistol -- but she never told anybody, ever, until after the JFK murder.  Marina also knew that LHO was going to Mexico City, but she didn't dare tell Ruth Paine.

Ruth Paine and Michael Paine testified honestly that they saw no rifle or package like a rifle when they unloaded Marina Oswald's belongings that she brought from New Orleans.

That means that the way that LHO's rifle came into Ruth Paine's garage was that it was driven to Texas by Loran Hall and Larry Howard.  

Makes perfect sense to me.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, You admit the backyard pics were forgeries (by LHO).

You admit that the only witnesses to LHO being in posession of a rifle are Marina, and the unsubstantiated (by Marina) testimony of Jeanne having been shown the rifle, by Marina.

Do you have anything else?

Cheers,

Michael

"Just beneath the

Surface of the mud.

There's more mud, here...,

Surprise!"

1 minute ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Marina Oswald would not have been able to testify in any trial had Oswald lived under the spousal immunity rule. 

There was no admissible evidence linking Oswald to the Walker shooting. Marina was the key to the alleged attempt but as we see, she would not have been able to testify. The bullet was too damaged to be traced back to the alleged Oswald rifle to the exclusion of any other rifle. The best that could be said was that it could be traced to a class of guns like the MC but not the specific rifle.  

Bingo! Thank you Lawrence. To be sure.... She would not have been able to, or she could not have been compelled to..... testify?

Thanks again David!

4 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

If Hoover wasn't part of the "frame Oswald as a Red Agent" operation why did he claim Oswald had gone to Cuba "on several occasions"?

I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years; came back to the United States in June, 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for.  I stated he a very mean-minded individual; that it is entirely possible he may have some communist sympathies but, so far as we know, is not a member of the Communist Party...

Why push the lie that Oswald went to Cuba unless Hoover wanted to frame him as a Fidelista?

You're splitting hairs making a distinction between having "communist leanbings" and being a CP member.

It's YOU who make up stuff about Bundy speaking to Hoover before calling AF1, which is the major point here.

 

 

The LBJ JEH phone recording, agreeing that a congressional committee "would be very bad" and then deciding on a Presidential Comission is the nail in the coffin. They knew and decided that there could not be sworn testimony under the threat of perjury charges.

Thanks guys. I always thought the pics looked fake, but I was never one to repeat that claim based on my, more or less, casual assessment; or just because a book made that claim, or I heard somebody say it. I still am only interested in saying that they are fake based on the consensus of a set of people's opinions which I respect. I would need to spend a lot of time measuring, thinking and reading before I would be willing to make the claim and argue for that claim. I am just not interested in studying the pictures in the absence of another live person or persons to debate with and analyze with, face to face.

So, I am satisfied. I can say that I believe they are faked, without feeling that I am just parroting sceptics.

What's more is I am confident that the only  evidence for LHO owning the rifle are:

-Marina's testimony

-Jeanne De M's testimony (that Marina showed her the rifle) that is uncorroborated by Marina.

Irionically, it is the dubious nature of Jeanne's testimony that makes me doubt Marina's. If they simply made Marina recount Jeanne's testimony I wouldn't reject the entire claim that Oswald owned a rifle. But, alas, that's where I am at.... LHO did not own or possess a rifle.

Thanks again!

Michael

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Michael,

Thanks for your heads up but, for my own purposes I want to take Mr. Dankaar literally.  I want to make at least 2 more posts on this topic of the BYP.  

Hopefully by doing so I can put out an idea that should end the discussion on the authenticity of the BYP.  Drive the last nails into the lid of that coffin.  I really don't know why people are still arguing about those frauds after 50+ years.

Somebody once said if you can prove The BYP are fraudulent then The LGT and Warren Commission conclusions are conspiracy frauds.

Excellent John, I am looking forward to your posts!

2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Andy, just wondering. If you believe the throat wound was caused by the EOP bullet, what caused JFK to reach for his throat as they came past the Freeway sign?

When I watch the Z film I see JFK's hands go up, then I see him tap at his chest a few times.

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's all about statistics, Ron. What percentage of women in 1963 looked like men? Very few. Most women in that era had the customary long hair.

If PM looks to you like a woman because of his height, I'd say it's more likely that he was a short man than a woman with short hair. There were a lot of short men back then.

BTW, I measure PM to be close to 5 ft. 6 in. in height. The assumptions for my measurement are 1) that PM is standing back near the glass entryway, and 2) that the height of the door is 86 inches. If the door is taller, then PM is taller. (Note that I had to determine on the photo precisely where the bottom of the door meets the concrete landing. I didn't spend a great deal of time doing that. If I ever find out what the true height of the door is, I'll spend more time trying to accurately determine PM's height.)

And, since the girth of PM has been mentioned several times, I'll note that there were far fewer portly people back then. Also, in the interest of alternate alliterations, we could say "far fewer fat folk".

In bumping this thread I was trying to get an idea of how many members regard the photos as fakes. After poking around a bit, it seems like most people think they are indeed fakes. 

This was in line with my post from earlier today where I was trying to gauge how much evidence there was that LHO did in fact own a rifle at all. The evidence is very surprisingly thin, in my estimation.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23480-witnesses-to-lho-posession-of-the-mc-rifle/

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Back to the original question, Jack White said there were conflicting shadows without explaining how the shadows conflicted.

I think Wim was talking figuratively about casting shadows upon reputations. I doubt we'll hear from Wim, I'll have to change my shorts if we hear from Jack..... and, to be sure, I was trying to draw-out Bill Miller, to no avail.

Cheers,

Mike

On 2/6/2017 at 6:52 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Why not just shoot Kennedy from the 6th floor window in the first place and then there is no need to alter the body? That is the question I keep coming back to and is the stumbling block on which I am unable to convince myself on... no biggy though.

I'll offer an answer Alistair, even though I might have missed that it has been answered.

Its pretty simple. The TSBD 6th floor window is NOT an optimal position to be firing from in that situation. ( If your a lone nut and just decided you were fed-up, and going to try to kill the President, from your work-place, it would do just fine; especially if you have already demonstrated your willingness to take a shot at an Army General through a window at his house.)

You would want to leave your optimal firing positions to your true assassins.

I am a hunter and would be glad to explain why The TSBD is a no-go position, but this thread is not the place for it. If your interested, I would be glad to search for, and bump an appropriate thread where I can explain. I don't think I want to start a new one and risk giving the impression that I am an expert, for I am not.

Cheers, Michael

------

On 11/2/2015 at 11:58 AM, Paul Trejo said:

I repeat again -- this isn't a joke to me -- if anybody has any real, solid evidence that Ruth Paine had a lesbian relationship with Marina Oswald, I invite you to share it in this thread, where I will give it careful consideration.

My project is to catalog all the accusations about Ruth Paine in JFK research -- I find this one only in insinuations by William Manchester and noplace else. Is there any more?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

I've been looking into a few things regarding the Paine's. It is apparently a very sensitive subject and this thread is way to bloated to read fully or even scan for what I am looking for. But I did find Paul's post and it seems genuine. He seems to want to be a clearinghouse for certain aspects of our overarching discussion, one of those aspect appears to be The Paine's.

What stuck me is two things. 

1. They seem to have a Brother and Sister aire about them.

2. Does anyone else see the "Hapsburg Jaw" aka "Mandibular prognathism" in the both of them. I think I see it in the youtube video interview in their home after the assassination.

???

Thank very much David!

19 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Marina Oswald was called back TWICE to testify about this.  George and Jeanne DM had testified that George made his joke when he was inside the apartment.  Marina's first testimony said that George made his joke before he walked in the door.

-------------------------

Lots of grist for melodramatic fiction -- but only the truth will set us free.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul, we largely agree. And we do agree on what was said, and when.

To me, however, Marina's initial testimony was too concise to be in error, and can't be misunderstood. It was said with such awkward placement, however, that I believe that she was made to say it.

George and Jeanne's testimony was, however, in response to a problem that Marina's scripted testimony created. Their testimony served two purposes. First, it absolved George of prior knowledge of LHO's ownership of the rifle. Second, it is corroboration of the otherwise very thin evidence that Lee did own a rifle at all.

Cheers,

Mike

5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Joe,

Marina didn't write "Hunter of fascists, ha ha!" on the back of any BYP.  

She never said she did.  Also, it wasn't her handwriting.

The handwriting, IMHO, was that of George De Mohrenschildt himself.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, not to be picky, but is it your thought that George wrote it, or is it your thought that the handwriting looks like George's and so you think he wrote it? Have you seen and compared the handwriting, or has that comparison, analysis and conclusion been made by someone else and you happen to agree with it? Again, not to split hairs but it would be an interesting distinction that would be valuable. 

It has been my thinking that some spook planted it in his stuff while he was away.

Cheers, Mike

6 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Is burried not quite a common word in the US to mean 'hidden' - I'm sure I've heard it quite often on US shows. Anyway.

Paul just wanted to say the rest of your post is awesome, kudos.

Alistair, to use buried for hidden in the US, you would almost have to be having an in-person conversation to use it, along with a nod or wink, or body motion. On the other hand, if you are talking about information, or a secret, buried works fine. 

Thanks David, After browsing the forum it seems that most people believe they are faked, by a heathy margin. The pictures are quite valuable in adding evidence to the very thin claim that LHO even owned a rifle. It's hard to believe that Marina would lie so much and maintain the fiction for so long; but it just appears, more and more, that that is indeed the case.

Thanks again David, for your reply,

Cheers,

Mike

7 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I am sure that most every person ( me included ) who has read Marina Oswald's testimony felt "stopped in their tracks" and "dumbfounded"  many times as you say you did.

I often couldn't help but stop and re-frame in my mind a normal thinking reality of what Marina recounted about things she heard from her husband in regards to his shooting Walker, burying the rifle as he made his get-a-way and her reaction to this as well as GDM and his wife's reactions.

GDM lightheartedly "joking" about the rifle discovery and his inferred guess  ( hunter of fascists) that it was Oswald who took a shot at Walker, as if it is some teen age mischievous action like discovering a stolen funny name street sign in that closet, is also gobsmacking.

In my 65 year life experience mind, I can't help but think that a normal reaction to a husband telling his wife about such things including hijacking planes and maybe targeting Nixon would be for that wife to be so appalled and revolted and concerned for her baby's welfare in the company of such an openly violent father, that she would have run as fast and as far away as she could the first opportunity she could.

And for so-called intelligent and worldly friends who stated many times they were very concerned about the welfare of Marina and her baby to not feel the same upon hearing of such things, is to me, simply unbelievable in a normal thinking world.

Knowing your husband is out taking evening pot-shots at anyone, should make any young mother terrified and traumatized she'd be looking for the first escape she could find.

But according to Marina's and the DeMohrenschild's recounting of such discoveries, it warrants no more action on their part than joking and leaving it be?

The DeM's should have been running from a dangerous gun shooting rogue like Oswald themselves.

In all the months after Marina says what saw and heard from her husband in regards to his suggested violent gun using thoughts and actions, did she exhibit and maybe even share to anyone appalled anxiety from such "husband as political hit man" revelations?

I know Marina stated she would admonish Lee with responses such as "that's crazy talk" and tell herself he wouldn't really do such things when he spoke of his violent thoughts and schemes , but after the Walker incident when she knew that he was actually carrying these out, I just can't make sense of her not taking more action to free herself and her baby from such a dangerous person. 

I know this has all been covered 10,000 times, but it still carry's huge suspicion upon Marina's part and that of the DeMohrenschilds imo.

 

Thanks for your thoughts Joe, I just apply it the unbelievability of the testimony. I can't believe that these things actually occurred. How people were compelled to make such testimony is difficult to understand but it's easier than believing that the events actually happened.

I can never seem to find the Hester's where I think they should be.