Michael Clark
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Posts posted by Michael Clark
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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:
I like what you have done there Michael, kudos.
Quick question, are you meaning that the Baker/Truly encounter with Oswald (as Prayer Man) happened on the stairs?
I am saying this happened on the front steps. Holmes doesn't identify an officer, so who knows which one it is. Baker could be around the side or back of the building.
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Holmes:
"And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."--------------------------
I'm going to pick this apart a bit.... and then I'll rebuild it, taking some latitude.
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And he didn't say what he was doing. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete
There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on.
He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete
He didn't say whether he took the elevator down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. he had a coke, by all accountsBut a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
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Upon reconstruction... with some commentary .....
"There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. The commotion is that the motorcade is arriving. The word "later"' looks to be an insertion, interpolation or forced assertion.
He had a coke with him.
"But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his supervisor came up and said, "He is one of our men." "Just as he started to identify himself" looks awkward, forced. We can't have LHO identify himself to a cop this early in the game. "He is one of our men" sounds like cop talk. I would expect to hear "he works here", or "he works for me".
The policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." and Prayer Man is born.
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And now for the reconstruction and interpolation.
LHO was in the first floor lunchroom, the motorcade was late. He went up to get a coke. He could hear that the motorcade was coming, due to the commotion. He came back downstairs, and went out front, with the Coke. The assassination took place. Chaos ensues. Truly and an officer head up the steps, asking some quick questions. LHO identifies himself and steps aside, for a little bit.
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17 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:
I think there are a few posters here who could tell you whether anything like missing parts of WC testimony is likely to be released later this year.
I have no expectations. My intention is to just isolate holes or obfuscation as I detect it. I have thought that I have seen many instances, and I just lose track of them. I have no idea what is expected this year, or at future release dates. I have no idea if deleted, omitted ect. testimony was ever expected, planned of intended for release. Anything you can add, Paul, would be appreciated.
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Alistair, I understand that disjointed testimony is to be expected. I just looks like there is a missing chunk of the narrative.
Thanks for your input.
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10 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Michael, yep, that's what Fritz's WC testimony says.
Can you find where Fritz says that Oswald said he was on the steps at the time of the shooting? When I search Fritz's testimony for the words "entrance",'"front" and "steps" I come up with nothing to indicate that.
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At the two dashes it sounds to me like something has been deleted from Fritz's testimony.
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
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And how much excitement would LHO notice from the second floor room with the coke machine?
"Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement"
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Alistair asked:
"Paul can you please point to where that comes from? As far as I am aware, Fritz never claimed that Oswald said that."
Frits says that the "investigation shows that he (Baker) actually saw him in the lunchroom". It is Mr. Ball who insinuates that it is the second floor by slipping in the words "up there".
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle. -
I don't see any evidence of his book having been published....
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Re: forum member Mitchell Warriner
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/profile/4008-mitchell-warriner/
I am wondering how you made out with your book, your law carreer etc.?
I find myself wondering what became of old forum members.
This guy, apparently, gave Gerald Ford a faceful as a 10 year old!
His mother wrote:
"Ten years ago, I wrote about his telephone chats with former President
Gerald Ford.They spoke on the phone twice, after Warriner sent Ford a letter about
Ford’s work on the Warren Commission that investigated the 1963
assassination.“I was the person who answered the phone,” said Kelley Hansen,
Warriner’s mother. “I asked if he realized that he was asking for a
child. He stated that yes, he was aware of Mitchell’s age. He went on
to say that he was so impressed that a youngster would have such an
interest in politics, that he felt it was his duty to continue to
inspire young Mitchell.”The pair had rather heated conversations, Warriner said. Warriner
didn’t believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter in Dallas,
Texas. While researching the case, he requested top secret documents
through the Freedom of Information Act. Word spread about his intense
interest. The CIA, FBI and Office of Naval Intelligence called his
Everett home."https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/i-YUV7Ypk3U/nOHQGK0Q_JEJ
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William Henry Harrison served 31 days. Trump has 18 to go to avoid setting a new record. But, alas he may like the idea of setting a new record, and he'll get lifetime Sectret Service protection to-boot! He knows a good deal when he sees one.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/media/kfile-stern-on-trump/index.html
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This is a recent example that prompted me to open this thread. It is not one of the more blatant examples I have found. Here is a place to post and share such examples going foreword.
Just as they are discussing where Oswald was, and what he was doing around the time of the assassination, Ball diverts to the tasty communist connection.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.
(something, I believe, is missing here)........
Mr. BALL. That same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, didn't you ask him if he belonged to the Communist Party?
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{insert WC claim of the right to delete, omit, alter, blah, blah blah, (once I find it again) here}
I have found quite a few places where I became startled by a feeling that something was missing in WC testimony. I am starting this thread to identify those points as I/we come across them. This is a kind of a tool for predicting what we feel might show-up once/if all or some of the deleted testimony has been released.
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Thanks Sandy, I spent about 2 weeks in my new Jeep in 2001, cruising and camping in Utah. Out of all the Rocky Mountain states, Utah impressed me the most.
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Winston Churchill said.... "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."
I'll offer that the inverse is also true for the conspirators of the plot to kill JFK and their efforts to hide their trail.
Cheers,
Mike
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i am looking for some good examples of time-line base presentations. I am collect some data that I find interesting. It surrounds several events of multiple characters and includes conflicts, in terms of times and location. I can read and make sense of it all because I am collecting it all. Just putting out concurrent timelines won't be very interesting for others but I am interested in sharing it all. So, If you have or know of some good examples, please share.
Cheers,
Mike
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17 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Sorry Paul, missed that part.
Can you link to the whole 'spilled the beans about Mexico City trip' please. (just for clarity.
)
Regards
Paul may be referring to this.
WC testimony of Larry Holmes
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"
"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation. Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to? Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess. (Discussion off the record.)Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba. -
22 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Paul, to be fair, Michael didn't mention the 2nd floor encounter or a Coke in his comment, only about a lunch being brought in.
Consider this, if Frazier is correct that Oswald didn't take a lunch in; what reason would Fritz have to make it up? There remains the possibility that it was Oswald that was making it up.
I'm very open to the suggestion of Fritz making things up, it's just I have yet to be given anything that Fritz has Oswald saying that would incriminate him, and surely that would be the point if Fritz was making things up.
Regards
I am speculating that Fritz has to have LHO inside, somewhere, with a cover story that he was having lunch. That's tough to do if he doesn't have a lunch. Certainly, people were questioned and we never heard about it. So the lunch wagon guy, or caterer, as Frazier put it, probably said that he didn't see LHO.
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10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Ray,
Do you think Frazier was mistaken about the lunch bag? (He said LHO didn't have one that day, right?)
Speaking of Frazier... I've seen him say on more than one occasions that the long paper bag was too short for a rifle. But I could have sworn that one time I heard him go along with with the bag being able to hold the rifle. It seems like it was at that mock trial with Bugliosi and Spence, but I'm not sure.
Does this ring true to anybody?
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.
I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?"
He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch."
Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was?
Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long.
Mr. BALL. Approximately how long?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right. -
Cool, thanks Alistair
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59 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Random question for anyone... see the door at the TSBD, did it swing both ways?
Regards
Was wondering that myself. Then it looked to me like there is no real landing at the top, so I'm figuring it must open to the inside only. I am curious to hear the correct answer.
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And, just as they are discussing where Oswald was, and what he was doing around the time of the assassination, Ball diverts to the tasty communist connection.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.
Mr. BALL. That same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, didn't you ask him if he belonged to the Communist Party? -
15 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Ray, just a quickie (as I might have missed something), can you point me in the direction of who said he had a cheese sandwich and an apple?Kind regards.
EDIT: If memory serves, Marina said it in her WC testimony. Did Oswald say it too?
EDIT2: Nowhere in Marina's WC testimony can the word apple be found.Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report. -
I just located this from Will Fritz WC testimony.
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.
I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?"
He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch."And Fraser's testimony...
Mr. BALL - Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.Mr. BALL - He told you that that day, did he?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.
Can you find where Fritz says that Oswald said he was on the steps at the time of the shooting? 
Oswald Leaving TSBD?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Thanks. I am expecting to take some hits for taking the latitude that I have. I am not sure how welcome that is, even with a disclaimer.