Jake Hammond

In fact I strongly disagree with your website I hate to say ! However, at least you have a website and have logical arguments . ..

This is in response to my stepping in his feet and speaking about his baby, the single bullet / shirt / jacket damage. His evidence is superb as you may imagine, could you compile it all here for us Cliff ? Also ... I’m not a lone nutter at all . Far from it, I just want the truth. In a way I think Lance is just as off target as you are. The difference is he writes politely in sentences and tries to utilise logic and reasoning.

When you start to put together a timeline or logic diagram of some sort for the movements of key individuals after the assassination this incident always sticks out, it never seems to fit and at the same time seems superfluous in the wider scheme. Much like a few other issues on that day. From my relatively little experience it seems like these incidents, the ones that don't fit with anything need to go into one of two categories . 1) Misunderstanding / mistakenly identified / lied 2) Very important and we need to nail down what happened. The incident doesn't seem to make sense, They wait until he's inside, which would have had to be a feat of timing in itself and then toot the horn, then leave. That doesn't make any sense. So... maybe ... he then got in the car round the corner where no one could see him in a pre arranged meeting place or just near by and he knew that the toot meant to meet near by. maybe .... they saw him and followed him, waited for him to go in then rolled up and signalled, but that just seems strange behaviour...unless the idea was to not be seen talking to him , and you were part of a small cabal of dodgy DPD cops. ( this seems most logical) maybe .....she was making a story up as Johnson suggested I'm not sure. Does anyone know how long the car waited and how long he was in the rooming house ? I've never seen a quantitative value.

Known facts - Jfk Throat wound - JC armpit , wrist and leg wounds. - There was no reaction to the shot, i.e it was not loud enough to hear over the ambient noise. - The wounds line up with each other and a shot from high up in the TSBD or Daltex - Unless the Z film has been CGI'd then the two men react at the same time. ( With the stabilized and HD film we have now this is simply not debatable like it used to be) - Unless the Shirt and jacket have been faked and the originals disposed with then we have a hole in each which line up with each other but , at first glance, seem slightly anomalous to the throat wound position. - There was a vertical fracture to the T1 vertebrae ( Cliff likes to place this vertebrae up near the skull but please see the x ray image attached for the real position, its a crop of the official JFK X ray annotated with positions of vertebrae) Null / mainstream / WC Explanation The first loud shot came from the snipers nest with a Carcano rifle and went through the soft tissue of kennedy's neck, straight out in to JC and ended up in his leg. Strengths - the men react at the same time, the wounds all line up, assuming bunching to the shirt and jacket ( I have just realised,Sandy, that you don't need to prove shirt bunching because you have a jacket hole and shirt hole that line up and we can see the jacket) the holes and wounds all line up. Weaknesses - The Carcano rifle obviously wasn't used, assuming that all the witnesses who described three loud shots 1.......2.3 weren't lying then the first loud shot is at 285, the shot that hit the men was not heard, or at least reacted to by the limo passengers, crowd or Zapruda, the back wounds, at first glance, don't line up with the neck wound, Some felt that the neck wound, at Parkland, was an entry wound. So what would make the Null work ? A suppressed high power rifle using FMJ rounds, military specification would have caused the exact damage we see. A clean through and out shot leaving a neat exit wound indistinguishable from the entry wound and easily powerful enough to rip through both men. Bunching to the shirt and jacket ( which all images of JFK en route show, bar the one or two where he is turning to his left and waving across with his right hand, the ones Cliff uses as evidence) explain the apparent discrepancy in heigh, along with the incline of Elm street and the slouching of JFK , as seen in almost all images. Ok, an alternative hypothesis... JFK was shot twice and JC once - Ok, to make this work is tricky but I'll try. The shot to the back came from a CIA only ( because thats the weapon they'd use when trying to frame a lone nut) futuristic ice bullet / subsonic weapon that hit the back but left no bullet on the seat or in Kennedy, it sort of went in then fell out and wasn't seen again, Kenedy reacted but we don't see it behind the sign. At almost the exact same time he was hit from the front with another low velocity, disappearing bullet ( it may have been removed at Parkland by a nefarious player). This bullet would have had to have come from the grassy knowl / triple underpass junction area. Neither of these shooters thought to aim again and try to finish the job. At the same time someone else mistakenly hit JC with a regular round. This must have been from the West side of the TSBD otherwise it would have gone through Kennedys back/neck, for a visual imagine somewhere halfway between the throat wound and the hole in the jacket. The professional assassin missed badly and didn't bother trying again. The bullet that damaged T1 either was made of ice or was removed at Parkland. Thats how I understand the incident , it would be of value in this topic for alternatives and conflicting evidence to be presented.

Yes, I agree, its only my experiences that suggest that, and of course the JFK evidence. I'll make sure I test this properly in the new year and new experiment. Again though, its not me who needs to persuade, I am trying to explain an anomaly in the null hypothesis( as it were). I am not trying to persuade anyone of a new hypothesis. Speaking of which, no one has put one forward yet despite several requests so I'll put one forward in a new post....

It would still be good though for this topic if someone came forward and gave an alternative hypothesis of what what caused the damage in JFK's neck, shirt, jacket and back at the same time JC was hit. It would genuinely move this topic forward , at the moment there is a lot of negativity and ridiculing of evidence and not much in the way of an alternative to the single bullet from the TSBD. Not looking for an argument at all.

Great info Cliff thank you. Do you have some details of the position just before he was shot ? like, after this image, more near the actual time we're concerned with . The image here is just before the freeway sign and is very blurry, but you can see he is turning to his right and has hand flat on the car door, it may well have moved. This is the latest image though as far as I understand.

It was more the tie specifically i was interested in, Its something I've never looked into. Just the basics really.

Excuse my ignorance but what is the general hypothesis with the tie ?

Possibly, it doesn't necessarily mean anything nefarious but it/s possible. Maybe also they didn't want to be too graphic.

Yes of course, so if the man were standing upright and the gun fired horizontally and the shirt was taught and flat against the mans back then the collar holes would be 2" too high.

John, the discrepancy is easily explained when you draw vertical lines down from the known data point of the makers label. On the colour image the edge of the left ( as we look at it) collar is rougly in the middle of the vertical drawn form the makers label hence you cannot see the hole. IN the right image the collar is much more open , deliberately exposing the hole, the edge sits around 20mm left of the left edge of the makers label. Use the shirt stripes as a vertical .

great picture. Thank you. That hole looks very small though for a bullet, could it be anything else ?

I'll try to get some video then but obviously that won't upload on to here. Secondly, I must re-emphasise that It is not me who needs to ' prove to others' what happened. The images all show a heavy fold running from right to left ( apart from the blurry , cropped Altgens 5 which is the ONLY image showing Kennedy waving his right hand over to the left side and has obviously pulled the jacket tight. He wasn't in this position behind the freeway sign) across the shoulder. The null hypothesis ( not quite the right term but you know what I mean) is that the the shirt hole, the back hole and the throat wound line up, which has been demonstrated may times, and I have demonstrated to the best of my ability with a mannequin. It would be of genuine benefit to this topic if anyone, Cliff, Sandy et al would like to put forward a new hypothesis. As of yet there has not been one posted. In the next experiment I will try to find out if sitting and having your arm raised produces a bunching in the jacket AND shirt. Also of course what the actual point of the bullet holes are in such circumstances. My father has a convertible and we have plenty of old clothes so I'll try to be as accurate as possible. If anyone has an parameters or tips for this then do voice your thoughts.

Your picture is your only evidence against a very strong null. And it’s a hilarious joke given the claim . He’s waving to his left with his right hand, hence the jacket been taught. This happened only momentarily. You have chosen a blurry image of the atypical and are trying to use it as evidence to disprove all the other images and known facts. It’s like showing someone a crappy picture of a lion licking its cubs and saying, ‘look, lions aren’t dangerous !’ Or jack the ripper going to court and saying , ‘ yeah but look at this picture of me and my sister , she’s a woman and I didn’t kill her, so I’m innocent ! ’ . The last we see of him in the Z film he is looking over to his right with his right arm on the top of the door. In this position, in all images, his jacket and shirt form a large fold starting large on the right and tapering to the left, as shown in the images I’ve posted and plenty more. I will repeat the experiment with a human tomorrow if possible.

Also, since I am effectively supporting the null hypothesis why don't you try an experiment and form a hypothesis ?

Cliff I won't argue any more, the images show very clearly that when kennedy was facing ahead and had his hand on the door top there was a large fold in the jacket, his shirt was loose and tended to fold that way also, and I have argued, does under a jacket too. Hence why the bullet hole looks low on said shirt. I don't need to argue the case as all the images , bar the one very blurry image you showed, the ONE time he waved over to his left ! show different. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just explain why the evidence is what it is and anyone with a pair of eyes and a sane mind, in the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary, will come to the conclusion I have.

Thats brilliant Cliff, that is hilarious, thank you. The argument that his jacket was tight, the shirt is a forgery and the bullet holes down't line up hinges on a picture of Kennedy turning to his left and waving over to the left with his right hand ( WHICH WILL OBVIOUSLY PULL HIS JACKET TIGHT). Which he did briefly. Another gem .

Show us a picture Cliff.

Approximate angle

You didn't see the previous exchange, he had told two other members that they didn't do similar experiments and that they didn't dare publish them. I repeated the experiment as described by Cliff and these members. Thats not good enough now though. So I am quite honestly asking what Cliff would like to see.

oh .... A massive fold Please note the looseness of the shirt.

?

Show us a picture from the right and maybe a still from the Z film.

Show us a pi Show us a picture form the right please Cliff, and maybe a still from the Z film, that would be scientific.