Paul Bacon

Pictures and floor plan of the basement can be found here. https://www.tpaak.com/jfk-crime-scen I used the website to familiarize myself during the discussion regarding using the pass elevator as a means of escape. I see no exit to the street from the basement.

Yes Jim, my info came from Groden's "The Killing of a President".

Jim, I believe that window is on the west side of the TSBD. I was curious about this Dillard photo when we were talking about the 6th floor escapees fleeing down the passenger elevator --why would this person have traveled all the way to the west side if his aim was to get down the elevator shaft as quickly as possible? Supposedly, Tom Dillard took the photo 15 seconds after the last shot.

Go for it Cliff. I just don't have the patience.....

"It would make sense that the force of the bullet moving through from the right front forehead to the occipital area would blow out the scalp somewhat on the right side of the head. " This might help explain why Zapruder, on television, indicated the back side of his own head to describe what he saw. The skull flap in the Z-film still looks fishy to me. I can imagine that any wounding on the side of the head could have been embellished after the fact. But even if the skull flap was, in fact, actually present and not embellished, it is not dispositive of a shot from the front entering the right forehead. I am also one who believes that a back shot to the head and a front shot happened near simultaneously --hence that little forward movement before the back and to the left. This could also explain the "skull flap."

Tony, I'm a little unclear about what you're asking here. Yes, I do believe the throat shot (remember, the aim was at the head) was part of a triangulated series of shots. All these shots began when the limousine entered the kill zone --and the shots came from a number of different directions, including from behind. I believe the conspirators were abundantly confident about showing only shots from behind at any "autopsy".

It was imperative to the conspiracy that Kennedy be killed. Necessary then, would have been shots coming from different directions --a triangulation. The evidence for trajectories were slated to be manipulated at the autopsy (Walter Reed?) at Bethesda. Yes, the throat shot was from the front.

I think that is entirely possible. After all, many think the gunshot was a tangential wound. It would make sense that the force of the bullet moving through from the right front forehead to the occipital area would blow out the scalp somewhat on the right side of the head. Then that could have been embellished (possibly to include skull material) at the pre-autopsy work.

Jim, I think Bart Kamp, at prayerman.com, makes a pretty good argument that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter never happened. So I am of the mind that the early affidavit given by Baker was probably accurate --including the encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor. After all, Baker would probably remember having climbed several floors before an encounter, instead of just one floor. Seems to me it would be a big difference in my mind. I'm not sure that Baker ever even saw Harvey Oswald in the depository at all. Bart has several pictures of Baker facing Harvey in a hallway at DPD, but he never I.D.'d him as a man he saw in the depository. My personal view is that Harvey Oswald came down to the first floor for lunch in an elevator, stopping on the way to get a coke, and never again left the first floor. I think he is, in fact, Prayerman. I also think that Truly was an inside man, along with Bill Shelley. I'm now reading the Ed. forum's thread entitled 'Spider's Web', presenting the idea that the TSBD was a CIA front involved in running drugs and guns for the purpose of generating needed money. I think it probable that the man encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor was excused by Truly. Those are my thoughts, at least for the time being.

Perfect!

Sorry I was so cryptic David. I meant that it looks like the bullet hole in the windshield next to the left officer's left elbow --same one as in Altgen's 6.

I don't mean to start anything here, but I just can't help myself: There's that pesky little spiral nebula, yet again.

I noticed that myself. Striking similarity!

White shirted Oswald was a very busy man the day of the assassination! I have no problem believing his movements that day were all part of the plan. What tipped me off regarding the idea that the men on the 6th floor were not worried about being noticed, was the description of some of the witnesses regarding the movement on the 6th floor --"fiddling with the rifle scope", "sitting astride the window ledge", "seemingly relaxed" (to the extent that the witness assumed he was part of security). Either these men were security, or they weren't worried about being noticed! And we know they were not security. I had a thought the other day, Jim, regarding the use of the passenger elevator for escape. The two men wouldn't, necessarily, have had to use the elevator to access the 6th floor. They could have been pre-planted on the 7th floor or on the rooftop (maybe in that little shack on the roof) very early in the work day (or even the night before). They then made use of the passenger elevator for escape. Still though, I'm wondering if Baker's earliest testimony about accosting a man on the 3rd or 4th floor, indicates that it was "Lee" alone who used the passenger elevator for escape. It strikes me that it would have been more imperative to get "Lee" out of the building un-noticed, although it would have been important to get both men off the 6th floor immediately. In the end, though, it's all speculation. The testimony of the movements of people in the building after the final head shot are, to use Bart Kamps expression, a cluster fuggazie.

Jim, Just my 2 cents worth of speculation, that is what I am thinking. Richard Carr saw what he thought was the man on the 6th floor get into a Nash Rambler. My assumption has been that he was the guy who ended up driving down Elm St. and picking up "Lee" Oswald (after having circled around from Record St.) I am a big fan of John Armstrong's theory of "two" Oswalds. And further, I think that maybe "Lee", on the 6th floor, was positioning himself to allow witnesses the chance to notice him as a further effort to incriminate the patsy.

As a builder myself, I think it's highly likely that the elevator systems were on separate circuits. This would mean that the passenger elevator could be controlled via the breakers without disconnecting power to the freight elevator system. Additionally, the passenger circuit may have included power to some of Hines' office fixtures.

And, I suppose we have no idea whether the freight elevators and the passenger elevators were on separate circuits? It strikes me that having both elevator systems on the same circuit would make for an easily overloaded circuit. Just a thought...

Andrej, I'm sorry but I never found it. Looking again at my post, I can see how it sounds as if I was looking through it, but I meant to indicate I was looking for it. I hit a lot of pages, but this is a page that gave me ideas of where to look. https://www.elevatorbooks.com/Content/Site125/FilesSamples/184718CaporaleO_00000105883.pdf About a fifth of the way down, it shows the cover of the book.

I just joined the forum, but I've been lurking here for many years. FWIW. This morning I spent a little time looking for the Fifth edition of ASME Standard A17.1, Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators. The 1955 version is probably the applicable version in our case. I was looking for any rules governing the "escape" hatch security. I've not found anything definitive, but I have a feeling that hatch security was not made a serious issue until later when a major revamping of the code took place in 1980's. Elevator surfing had become a thing. Before then the hatches were, I'm thinking, accessible from the inside and secured by wing nuts or some type of other hardware. It was, back then, thought of an escape hatch. So, I don't think we should write off the idea of easy access to the top of the cab via the ceiling hatch. To pose another question, did that passenger elevator go all the way into the basement, possibly? Then escape could be made up the basement stairs to the first floor. Was there a bulkhead in the basement that was accessible to the outside of the building...? And finally, I just wanted to offer an observation regarding the electricity in the building being being turned off, then back on. The Tom Dillard photo that was taken 15 seconds after the last gunshot showed a figure in the western most 6th floor window. Above the head of the figure and in the background, is a ceiling light that was on. So the power was restored by then.

I live in New Hampshire and I survive through my own business as a Building Renovation contractor. I went to the University of New Hampshire and graduated with a BA in Theatre and Communications. That is why I'm a contractor . John Kennedy was killed 4 days before my 11th birthday and I vividly remember the sadness that I, and my family, felt for a long time afterwards. My interest in the details surrounding the assassination became obsessive after seeing Oliver Stone's movie JFK. I obtained copies of 'Best Evidence' and 'Crossfire'. The two books had me hooked and I continued to read books until I had access to the internet. I've been a long time lurker at the Education Forum. I now have, as a result, a good grasp on the "who, how, and why". I am amazed at how much of my early understanding has been fleshed out over the years by postings on the Ed Forum.