Could this be David Morales in Dealey Plaza?

[James Richards]

Hey, has anyone ever seen the photo referred to below?

"Another example of Morales indiscretion was allowing his photograph to be taken by Kevin Schofield at the El Molino restaurant on 4th August, 1973. The picture appeared in the Arizona Republic with the following text: “Feted by friends at a fiesta Saturday was former American counsul to Cuba, David Sanchez, left, who was in that country when Castro took over… In government service for 28 years, Sanchez is now consultant in the office of deputy director for Operations Counter-insurgency and Special Activities in Washington.” (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

Here is that photograph.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

Hey, has anyone ever seen the photo referred to below?

"Another example of Morales indiscretion was allowing his photograph to be taken by Kevin Schofield at the El Molino restaurant on 4th August, 1973. The picture appeared in the Arizona Republic with the following text: “Feted by friends at a fiesta Saturday was former American counsul to Cuba, David Sanchez, left, who was in that country when Castro took over… In government service for 28 years, Sanchez is now consultant in the office of deputy director for Operations Counter-insurgency and Special Activities in Washington.” (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

Here is that photograph.

James

Thank you James!

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Given that things were not going to plan post shooting, then I submit that the plotters were scrambling to get things back on track.

James

James that is very interesting and makes sense, could you elaborate on what went wrong and the actions they were taking?

Many Thanks

Gary

[James Richards]

Given that things were not going to plan post shooting, then I submit that the plotters were scrambling to get things back on track.

James

James that is very interesting and makes sense, could you elaborate on what went wrong and the actions they were taking?

Many Thanks

Gary

Gary,

I submit that what was supposed to happen with Oswald post shooting didn't. Most likely he was to be escorted out of Dallas and killed somewhere so to implicate him in a Castro backed conspiracy.

We are prone to think that the lone nut frame was planned all along but I believe this was something that was desperately grasped at when it all went wrong which is why the whole thing was so sloppy. Oswald was in the wind and during those moments of madness, the potential for disaster was extreme.

Having Oswald whacked while in police custody also smacks of desperation which suggests to me that the plotters were making it up as they went along.

IMO of course.

James

Edited June 26, 2007 by James Richards

[James Richards]

Hey, has anyone ever seen the photo referred to below?

"Another example of Morales indiscretion was allowing his photograph to be taken by Kevin Schofield at the El Molino restaurant on 4th August, 1973. The picture appeared in the Arizona Republic with the following text: “Feted by friends at a fiesta Saturday was former American counsul to Cuba, David Sanchez, left, who was in that country when Castro took over… In government service for 28 years, Sanchez is now consultant in the office of deputy director for Operations Counter-insurgency and Special Activities in Washington.” (Myra Bronstein)

Myra,

Here is that photograph.

James

Thank you James!

Myra,

BTW, the guy on the right is Ruben Carbajal who was one of those present when Morales made his infamous quote about 'taking care of that SOB.'

And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.

If things went to plan that day, I believe the Zapruder film would have been broadcast to the world immediately.

James

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Gary,

I submit that what was supposed to happen with Oswald post shooting didn't. Most likely he was to be escorted out of Dallas and killed somewhere so to implicate him in a Castro backed conspiracy.

makes sense - IIRC Matthew Smith alludes to same in 'The second plot' - though with Oswald flying to Cuba from Red Bird - same result

We are prone to think that the lone nut frame was planned all along but I believe this was something that was desperately grasped at when it all went wrong which is why the whole thing was so sloppy. Oswald was in the wind and during those moments of madness, the potential for disaster was extreme.

You've preemptively answered my next questions here . There is a distinction, then, between Oswald's original purpose i.e. part of a Castro backed conspiracy to kill Kennedy, to the quickly established 'on the fly' purpose, that of a deranged lone nut? Is that right, it's one aspect I've had trouble getting my head around.

Having Oswald whacked while in police custody also smacks of desperation which suggests to me that the plotters were making it up as they went along.

Absolutley, IMO one of the prima facie indicators of the true conspiracy

And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.

Makes perfect sense - Was Abe 'employed' for this purpose or did happenstance make his film the best of the bunch

If things went to plan that day, I believe the Zapruder film would have been broadcast to the world immediately.

Once again, the logical conclusion, I believe also

IMO of course.

James

My comments in red above.

At what stage did LBJ (if my assumption is correct) order or was advised to order the cover up? I don't believe he wanted the war with Cuba and the potentially nuclear ramifications of such. Would someone on the ground have gotten word out to him, or did he make an executive decision based on his own intelligence?

Cheers again James

Gary

Edited June 26, 2007 by Gary Loughran

[Myra Bronstein]

...

Myra,

BTW, the guy on the right is Ruben Carbajal who was one of those present when Morales made his infamous quote about 'taking care of that SOB.'

...

Ah, interesting. Thank you James.

...

And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.

If things went to plan that day, I believe the Zapruder film would have been broadcast to the world immediately.

James

This is really helpful to understand the original plot as opposed to the revised plot.

I think we all know to observe who benefited.

But we need to look also at who would have benefited if things had gone according to plan a.

So, to follow up on Gary's question--was Zapruder more than a simple dress maker?

Also, I assume Tippit fit into the plan by being Lee's driver to the airport.

Any theory about what went wrong there and got Tippit prematurely killed?

I assume that's where the plot fell apart.

[Lee Forman]

Also, I assume Tippit fit into the plan by being Lee's driver to the airport.

Any theory about what went wrong there and got Tippit prematurely killed?

I assume that's where the plot fell apart.

Not according to Martino anyway. The plot would have fallen apart when Oswald was discovered at the Theatre, and Tippit would have been an unplanned casualty.

'Poor dumb cop.'

- lee

[James Richards]

Gary, Myra and Lee,

I think Zapruder was completely innocent of having any knowledge of what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza but I do suspect he was handled to be there, as were several other folk with cameras. Has anyone ever pondered how thin the crowds were at the killing site yet not 100 yards away, people stood several deep? Why didn't they just filter down along Elm? Again, if things went to plan, I submit that the Babuska Lady's film would have seen the light of day which seemingly covered the knoll and fence area showing the multiple shooter conspiracy.

To have the killing filmed by a respected Dallas businessman who attends Temple regularly was ideal. Manipulation of people is a fine art and something the various Intel agencies are very good at. Even the people doing the suggesting are usually in the dark regarding the ultimate aim. It is done in such a way that the people being handled actually believe they came up with the idea themselves.

I do not think Tippit was involved in the conspiracy. His death may have had something to do with chatter he heard at the Stevens Theater but that's another story.

I also submit that Oswald was given up to the Dallas police by the man he was supposed to meet at the Texas Theater who at the last minute may have felt he was going to become a second patsy. There have always been questions regarding the police response at the theater but not if they had been given a solid tip-off. Again, this was not part of the plan as the last thing the plotters would have wanted was Oswald under arrest.

As to LBJ, he was a political opportunist and the change of plan to accomodate a lone nut suggests he had no real fore-knowledge of the assassination. I agree that he didn't want the all out war with Cuba. He would have been filled in very quickly as to what was really going on in Dallas, that I have no doubt. And besides, they always had the bumbling Malcolm Wallace in the TSBD to make sure LBJ didn't go after the real killers.

Again, all in my opinion of course.

James

[Shanet Clark]

Good thread.

I see what you mean that the narrative now in place

is a contingent thing cobbled together when things

went wrong and Oswald was not disposed of as planned.

I wonder about Tippett, could he have wanted to end

the program, the "false/mock" assassination?

Was he breaking from the strain of widespread Dallas

Police corruption and infiltration around the Carousel?

Was he at Dealey and involved in the gunfire?

Who ever killed him was a cold blooded murderer, and

the facts point away from Oswald, except for the double frame

aspect...............questions, no answers, sorry

[Guest Gary Loughran]

I also submit that Oswald was given up to the Dallas police by the man he was supposed to meet at the Texas Theater who at the last minute may have felt he was going to become a second patsy.

Has your research indicated the name of second patsy - Oswalds meet?

And besides, they always had the bumbling Malcolm Wallace in the TSBD to make sure LBJ didn't go after the real killers.

The penny is slowly dropping...quite a foresight by the plotters

Again, all in my opinion of course.

Which I'm very appreciative of, thanks

James

Gary

[Ron Ecker]

Going with the lone nut scenario out of desperation also explains body alteration. Surely the original plan did not call for stealing the body and butchering the head. But when they hurriedly decided to frame Oswald alone and there could be no shots from the front, the body had to be altered accordingly.

But even that was done masterfully although on the fly. The shell game that went on with the caskets and body between Dallas and the autopsy table is still impossible to follow.

[James Richards]

Has your research indicated the name of second patsy - Oswalds meet? (Gary Loughran)

Gary,

If we break it down, it would be ideal for the plotters if this person had spent some time in Cuba. His loyalties being somewhat mercenary would have been handy. To have been photographed with a suspected Castro agent ideal. To have a paper and witness trail that puts a rifle in his hand and traveling to Dallas even better.

Additions like an arrest record in Dallas, being known to the FBI and staying at the same YMCA that Oswald did being clinchers.

After the assassination there would have been an uneasy truce with the plotters given what this man knew and what he may have stashed away as insurance.

I also submit that if things went to plan, a second rifle would have been found (see above) in the Dal-Tex building most likely on a high floor. Maybe one was which may explain why the next day the DPD were up there taking photographs from a sniper's point of view. (see below)

As to Wallace, I would have thought that having something over the guy who inherits the top job as being a prerequisite.

FWIW.

James

Edited June 26, 2007 by James Richards

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Has your research indicated the name of second patsy - Oswalds meet? (Gary Loughran)

Gary,

If we break it down, it would be ideal for the plotters if this person had spent some time in Cuba. His loyalties being somewhat mercenary would have been handy. To have been photographed with a suspected Castro agent ideal. To have a paper and witness trail that puts a rifle in his hand and traveling to Dallas even better.

Additions like an arrest record in Dallas, being known to the FBI and staying at the same YMCA that Oswald did being clinchers.

After the assassination there would have been an uneasy truce with the plotters given what this man knew and what he may have stashed away as insurance.

I also submit that if things went to plan, a second rifle would have been found (see above) in the Dal-Tex building most likely on a high floor. Maybe one was which may explain why the next day the DPD were up there taking photographs from a sniper's point of view. (see below)

As to Wallace, I would have thought that having something over the guy who inherits the top job as being a prerequisite.

FWIW.

James

OK I know who this guy is, I just hadn't realised he was to meet Oswald in the theatre and also tipped off the police about this.

[James Richards]

Has your research indicated the name of second patsy - Oswalds meet? (Gary Loughran)

Gary,

If we break it down, it would be ideal for the plotters if this person had spent some time in Cuba. His loyalties being somewhat mercenary would have been handy. To have been photographed with a suspected Castro agent ideal. To have a paper and witness trail that puts a rifle in his hand and traveling to Dallas even better.

Additions like an arrest record in Dallas, being known to the FBI and staying at the same YMCA that Oswald did being clinchers.

After the assassination there would have been an uneasy truce with the plotters given what this man knew and what he may have stashed away as insurance.

I also submit that if things went to plan, a second rifle would have been found (see above) in the Dal-Tex building most likely on a high floor. Maybe one was which may explain why the next day the DPD were up there taking photographs from a sniper's point of view. (see below)

As to Wallace, I would have thought that having something over the guy who inherits the top job as being a prerequisite.

FWIW.

James

OK I know who this guy is, I just hadn't realised he was to meet Oswald in the theatre and also tipped off the police about this.

Gary,

Don't carve that in stone. It is just my opinion.

James