Could this be David Morales in Dealey Plaza?

[Myra Bronstein]

Deleted.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Myra Bronstein]

...

And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.

...

James

This puts the brutal and public nature of the murder in another light.

Whereas it first seemed like they were sending a message that they can and will arrogantly blow away those that cross them and dare to think they are really president, it would now seem like they wanted it public and horrible to evoke maximum horror and hatred against Castro to fuel the resulting Cuba invasion.

[Myra Bronstein]

Also, I assume Tippit fit into the plan by being Lee's driver to the airport.

Any theory about what went wrong there and got Tippit prematurely killed?

I assume that's where the plot fell apart.

Not according to Martino anyway. The plot would have fallen apart when Oswald was discovered at the Theatre, and Tippit would have been an unplanned casualty.

'Poor dumb cop.'

- lee

Oh, I just now read that quote in context:

http://www.jfklancer.com/WCnar.html

It was new to me.

Thanks Lee.

[Myra Bronstein]

Gary, Myra and Lee,

I think Zapruder was completely innocent of having any knowledge of what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza but I do suspect he was handled to be there, as were several other folk with cameras. Has anyone ever pondered how thin the crowds were at the killing site yet not 100 yards away, people stood several deep? Why didn't they just filter down along Elm? Again, if things went to plan, I submit that the Babuska Lady's film would have seen the light of day which seemingly covered the knoll and fence area showing the multiple shooter conspiracy.

...

James

Now I'm more inclined to believe that Babushka Lady was in fact Betty Oliver. She would have had the connections to put here at the scene with a camera.

Do you have a (humble ) opinion on Babushka Lady's identity James?

[Myra Bronstein]

Going with the lone nut scenario out of desperation also explains body alteration. Surely the original plan did not call for stealing the body and butchering the head. But when they hurriedly decided to frame Oswald alone and there could be no shots from the front, the body had to be altered accordingly.

But even that was done masterfully although on the fly. The shell game that went on with the caskets and body between Dallas and the autopsy table is still impossible to follow.

Ron, I really think David Lifton comes up with a plausible scenario in Best Evidence.

I think the body was taken from the casket on Air Force 1 during the LBJ swearing in ceremony while it was on the ground.

And I think that's why LBJ insisted on the immediate swearing in, to keep the plane on the ground, and Jackie was forced to attend the ceremony to leave the casket unattended, which she was not otherwise inclined to do.

So the big heavy casket was empty when it arrived in DC, and empty when it arrived at Bethesda. But it weighed so much it wasn't obvious.

The body was reunited with the casket at Bethesda, after arriving in the body bag described by Paul O'Connor.

The alteration on the body was done either at Walter Reed in DC (per Lifton) or in Dallas (or en route I suppose).

There was a segment in The Men Who Killed Kennedy that dealt with a Dallas coroner that may have done the work, based on what his wife/ex-wife said.

I don't recall his name.

[Ron Ecker]

it would now seem like they wanted it public and horrible to evoke maximum horror and hatred against Castro to fuel the resulting Cuba invasion.

Which may have included the deliberate shooting of Connally just for good measure. Though LBJ and Hoover thought Connally was shot from the front accidentally.

LBJ: How did it happen they hit Connally?

HOOVER: Connally turned to the President when the first shot was fired and I think in that turning, it was where he got hit.

LBJ: If (Connally) hadn't turned, (the President) probably wouldn't have got hit (with the second shot)?

HOOVER: I think that is very likely. . . .

LBJ: He would have been hit three times.

(From 11/29/63 phone conversation - i.e., a week after the assassination the President and FBI Director still didn't know that OSWALD ALONE shot JFK, from BEHIND - it's almost like they're still talking about a CONSPIRACY).

[James Richards]

Gary, Myra and Lee,

I think Zapruder was completely innocent of having any knowledge of what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza but I do suspect he was handled to be there, as were several other folk with cameras. Has anyone ever pondered how thin the crowds were at the killing site yet not 100 yards away, people stood several deep? Why didn't they just filter down along Elm? Again, if things went to plan, I submit that the Babuska Lady's film would have seen the light of day which seemingly covered the knoll and fence area showing the multiple shooter conspiracy.

...

James

Now I'm more inclined to believe that Babushka Lady was in fact Betty Oliver. She would have had the connections to put here at the scene with a camera.

Do you have a (humble ) opinion on Babushka Lady's identity James?

Myra,

I must admit I have never really looked at the Babushka Lady with much vigor. However, for Beverly Oliver to come forward claiming it was her, she was either being completely honest or knew that she would never be contradicted by the real one popping out of the woodwork. How's that for some fence sitting?

If it was Beverly, she was certainly amongst the action.

James

[Ron Ecker]

Ron, I really think David Lifton comes up with a plausible scenario in Best Evidence.

I think the body was taken from the casket on Air Force 1 during the LBJ swearing in ceremony while it was on the ground.

And I think that's why LBJ insisted on the immediate swearing in, to keep the plane on the ground, and Jackie was forced to attend the ceremony to leave the casket unattended, which she was not otherwise inclined to do.

So the big heavy casket was empty when it arrived in DC, and empty when it arrived at Bethesda. But it weighed so much it wasn't obvious.

The body was reunited with the casket at Bethesda, after arriving in the body bag described by Paul O'Connor.

The alteration on the body was done either at Walter Reed in DC (per Lifton) or in Dallas (or en route I suppose).

Yes, I've read Lifton's book. But you've left out details about who, when, how, and where, because of course they're unknown, by Lifton and everyone else. Like I said, the shell game is impossible to follow.

If, for example, the body was taken from the casket during the swearing-in ceremony and either hidden on the plane or taken elsewhere, it was masterfully done, perfectly covert, despite precious little time to plan such a heist. Some people were really earning their black-op pay that day - after the shooting.

[Charles Drago]

Mr. Hemming, allegedly quoting the ex-SS sniper who did the job, on the reason for targeting Governor Connally:

"'He didn't bid high enough.'"

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry ...

As for Ms. Oliver: During the JFK Lancer conference at which Judge Tunheim was a featured speaker, Bev told a small group of researchers that she had been contacted (via post, if memory serves, but perhaps by an intermediary) within the past few years by ... wait for it ... an alive, well, and living in Europe Jack Ruby, who urged her to confirm his identity by posing questions about their shared past that only he could answer.

According to Oliver, she put together ten questions that fit the bill. "Jack" got nine out of ten right, and the wrong answer, she claimed, could be explained by an honest difference in the way the correspondents referred to the performance space at the Carousel Club ("stage" v. "runway").

Oliver swore to secrecy those who were regaled by her tale.

It hit the floor within an hour, and Oliver claimed to be enraged and terrified by the betrayal.

She then wouldn't stop talking about it.

I bring these stories to the Forum's attention in order to illustrate -- if further illustration truly is necessary at this late date -- just how difficult it always will be to weigh the value of "confessions" -- pseudo or otherwise.

Charles

[Cliff Varnell]

it would now seem like they wanted it public and horrible to evoke maximum horror and hatred against Castro to fuel the resulting Cuba invasion.

Which may have included the deliberate shooting of Connally just for good measure. Though LBJ and Hoover thought Connally was shot from the front accidentally.

LBJ: How did it happen they hit Connally?

HOOVER: Connally turned to the President when the first shot was fired and I think in that turning, it was where he got hit.

LBJ: If (Connally) hadn't turned, (the President) probably wouldn't have got hit (with the second shot)?

HOOVER: I think that is very likely. . . .

LBJ: He would have been hit three times.

(From 11/29/63 phone conversation - i.e., a week after the assassination the President and FBI Director still didn't know that OSWALD ALONE shot JFK, from BEHIND - it's almost like they're still talking about a CONSPIRACY).

I'd speculate that Hoover was trying to keep the Castro-conspiracy angle alive,

even at that late date.

[Cliff Varnell]

I bring these stories to the Forum's attention in order to illustrate -- if further illustration truly is necessary at this late date -- just how difficult it always will be to weigh the value of "confessions" -- pseudo or otherwise.

Charles

True enough, Charles.

Take the purported confessions of David Sanchez Morales, David Atlee Phillips,

and E. Howard Hunt.

Morales made a drunken confession, according to close personal friends.

Phillips made a death-bed confession to his brother, according to his nephew.

E. Howard Hunt recorded a death-bed confession that fingered both Phillips

and Morales.

To this I apply the "Ian Fleming" rule of thumb:

One confession is a case of "happenstance."

Two is a case of "coincidence."

Three: evidence of "enemy action"!

Edited June 27, 2007 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Mr. Hemming, allegedly quoting the ex-SS sniper who did the job, on the reason for targeting Governor Connally:

"'He didn't bid high enough.'"

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry ...

As for Ms. Oliver: During the JFK Lancer conference at which Judge Tunheim was a featured speaker, Bev told a small group of researchers that she had been contacted (via post, if memory serves, but perhaps by an intermediary) within the past few years by ... wait for it ... an alive, well, and living in Europe Jack Ruby, who urged her to confirm his identity by posing questions about their shared past that only he could answer.

According to Oliver, she put together ten questions that fit the bill. "Jack" got nine out of ten right, and the wrong answer, she claimed, could be explained by an honest difference in the way the correspondents referred to the performance space at the Carousel Club ("stage" v. "runway").

Oliver swore to secrecy those who were regaled by her tale.

It hit the floor within an hour, and Oliver claimed to be enraged and terrified by the betrayal.

She then wouldn't stop talking about it.

I bring these stories to the Forum's attention in order to illustrate -- if further illustration truly is necessary at this late date -- just how difficult it always will be to weigh the value of "confessions" -- pseudo or otherwise.

Charles

The truth is that many on this very Forum who were at least 18 in 1963 could create a reasonably plausible story detailing their presence in Dealey Plaza on that day. All you need to do is isolate a fairly obscure and unverifiable bit of information, inject yourself into the scenario in an equally unverifiable way, and then create a back story. It's not hard at all. A handful of people have already done it and they each have their fans.

[Charles Drago]

and Morales.

To this I apply the "Ian Fleming" rule of thumb:

One confession is a case of "happenstance."

Two is a case of "coincidence."

Three: evidence of "enemy action"!

The three section titles from Goldfinger.

Obsessed since the age of 12 -- with the original novels, that is.

009

[Ron Ecker]

The truth is that many on this very Forum who were at least 18 in 1963 could create a reasonably plausible story detailing their presence in Dealey Plaza on that day.

Okay, I'll admit that I was there.

If someone can post the photo of Robert MacNeil gathered with others at the north end of the underpass, I will point me out.

I'm sure that there are others here who can find themselves in Dealey Plaza photos. Come on, it should be easy if you try. We could even start a gallery.

[Shanet Clark]

[[[ james - Check out how "Morales" is standing in the supporting photo Bernice

sumbitted. Check out the body English, this guy the "Big Indian" is chambered and ready

to secure that staging area at the TSBD door, if you know what I mean....]]]

Ron,

Well, it looks like a great many people were there and then did not

come forward..............the two with Emmett at the ambush salient,

DCM and his mate, also at salient zone,

the Nix/moorman figures, drivers of vehicles, the figures on the overpass,

............ I personally will look at my files

and see if I was there............

I hope everyone has read Mark

Lane's full account "PLAUSIBLE DENIAL (APPENDIX)"

of the Howard Hunt libel trial, where he couldn't substantiate his whereabouts and his kids would

not vouch for him from the stand..........Nixon was lately in town,

Lucien Conein and Rip Robertson were there, Tosh on an abort

mission/observation from Miami JM/wave station for CIA's Wm Harvey,

Woody Harrelson's father Charles, ..... Roselli and oh George HW Bush Sr.,

Unusual. that photo identification discussion..............

The Cabinet proper was out of the country and

James McCord was fairly visible.

Anyone snapped Frank Sturgis or E. Martinez in the photos?

YES JIM .... could well be the big Indian Morales >>>>>>>>>>>>>>...

Edited June 27, 2007 by Shanet Clark