On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Miles Scull]

David, your contributions to this thread have been immeasurable. I have somehow managed to list them all below.

ROTFLMFAO, the irony of it all!... Not fooling me!

Hi Gary! I see you there..... smile.gif

your Baghdad jokes still suck, Willie -- hey, you go to work at the 6th floor Mausoleum yet? BTW, I think Miles intimidates you.... just an opinion!

Bill,

Forget the "Willie" & "Millie" stuff.

That's not the point, right?

I am only interested in this:

[Bernice Moore]

The photo I had posted I believe was marked with the names by Chris....

Below are a few more that I have gathered, when into the

studies of such..

...The motorcyists seen in the three attached frames is said to be Haygood.

The H.& Hargis photo is marked in a Couch frame.

I believe one of the others was marked by Alan H..The single pointing possibly

to Hargis was a Wiegman frame captured

and marked by Robin... the others I have no idea now.

They may help in trying to locate, who was who, and where the DPD Motorcylists were..?

B.....

[Bernice Moore]

Possibly Officer Haygood running up the knoll seen in Cabluck....

and a closer view seen in Willis......

B..

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Miller]

That's not the point, right?

I am only interested in this:

The 'this' that you are referring to looks like sun spot on the wall. You'll have to check with Mack to get the exact year the street lamps had been moved along the sidewalk, but I am thinking that they were moved eastward, but still best to check with Mack on that.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

That's not the point, right?

I am only interested in this:

The 'this' that you are referring to looks like sun spot on the wall. You'll have to check with Mack to get the exact year the street lamps had been moved along the sidewalk, but I am thinking that they were moved eastward, but still best to check with Mack on that.

Bill Miller

Don't need to bother Gary, already know that.

Point ( not "Millie", understood?) is that: if that is the lamp,

then Bowers could see the motorcade, correct?

[Bill Miller]

Don't need to bother Gary, already know that.

Yet you had to ask me ... interesting.

Point ( not "Millie", understood?) is that: if that is the lamp,

I am not sure who in the hell 'Millie' is. If you find out, then tell them the guy you called 'bilbo' so many times wants to know - OK.

then Bowers could see the motorcade, correct?

Well no, not exactly, unless JFK was riding so high off the street so to be at the same level as the lamp itself, which by the way is located on the south pasture in Groden's recent photos from the tower. I might also add that Gary Mack recently went out to the same lamp post and noted that the LOS from there looking back to Bowers tower doesn't even come close to crossing over the steps.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

I am not sure who in the hell 'Millie' is.

Well no, not exactly, ...

Bill Miller

I checked back to post # 526 by Miller.

Miller there says on Oct 20 2007, 06:44 AM :

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

Miller appends this photo which Miller describes in the above quote:

I resized this snap & added "Hudson's Step."

There's something odd about this.

The photographer is clearly NOT standing on Hudson's Step. He is standing some steps further down from Hudson's Step.

Therefore, the view is deceptive.

Had the photographer stood on Hudson's Step as he made his exposure & then stepped into the grass to the west of Hudson's Step to various points for additional exposures at various distances in line with Hudson's Step:

T H E N, W H A T ?

Edited October 29, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

I checked back to post # 526 by Miller.

Miller there says on Oct 20 2007, 06:44 AM :

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

There's something odd about this.

The photographer is clearly NOT standing on Hudson's Step. He is standing some steps further down from Hudson's Step.

Therefore, the view is deceptive.

Milles, you're spitting in the wind ... don't you feel the back spray hitting you? If you quoted me correctly and I assume you did - did I not say that Robert had taken a photo 'of the first step below the landing', which is exactly what the photo depicts. And would that particular line of sight (LOS) be the one Hudson would have had while sitting on the steps watching the caravan come into the plaza - I think it does.

Then in post #648, did I not then post another photo taken by Robert while standing 'on the Hudson Step' which I then went as far as to reference the shadow of a man standing just to Robert's right and up a step. Does that photo not also represent the LOS that Hudson would have had when standing up and watching the caravan coming down Em Street - I think it does.

Yeah, somethings not right alright, but not with the LOS in those images.

Bill Miller

Edited October 29, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

I checked back to post # 526 by Miller.

Miller there says on Oct 20 2007, 06:44 AM :

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

There's something odd about this.

The photographer is clearly NOT standing on Hudson's Step. He is standing some steps further down from Hudson's Step.

Therefore, the view is deceptive.

Yeah, somethings not right alright, but not with the LOS in those images.

Bill Miller

What is odd about this photo is that there is no companion photo.

The companion would show when Bowers' window comes into view as the result of the photographer moving progressively by increments up the stairs or to the west or both.

Until there are comparison shots this photo is of little value.

When does the Tower appear on the horizon?

[Bill Miller]

What is odd about this photo is that there is no companion photo.

The companion would show when Bowers' window comes into view as the result of the photographer moving progressively by increments up the stairs or to the west or both.

Until there are comparison shots this photo is of little value.[/color]

Mack and Groden have both said that there is no view to Bowers window from on the steps. Groden took photos from the Hudson step and from the steps just down from the walkway and never more than the eave of the tower was ever visible.

Furthermore, it has been pointed out numerous times now that Hudson had been sitting on the steps out of Bowers view as the caravan entered the plaza when the men that Lee could see were standing and watching the caravan enter the plaza. So what would be next ... having Groden take a photo from every step while leaning west out over the grass - its a moot point for the other two men were too far east to be seen.

Bill Miller

Edited October 30, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

What is odd about this photo is that there is no companion photo.

The companion would show when Bowers' window comes into view as the result of the photographer moving progressively by increments up the stairs or to the west or both.

Until there are comparison shots this photo is of little value.[/color]

Mack and Groden have both said that there is no view to Bowers window from on the steps.

Not good enough. Not by a LONG shot!

Groden took photos from the Hudson step and from the steps just down from the walkway and never more than the eave of the tower was ever visible.

Furthermore, it has been pointed out numerous times now that Hudson had been sitting on the steps out of Bowers view as the caravan entered the plaza when the men that Lee could see were standing and watching the caravan enter the plaza.

What steps? And when? What about the THIRD MAN?

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson's testimony, just like Bowers' testimony, is open to question.

You seem to completely overlook that very important point.

Here's a little mental experiment you might try to expand the foundational platform beyond what you have so far considered:

Ask yourself: if I question Bowers, whoa, should I also question Hudson?

So what would be next ... having Groden take a photo from every step while leaning west out over the grass - its a moot point for the other two men were too far east to be seen.

Silly nonsense. Let's get some images from the grass & up. Buy Bob some film.

Bill Miller

Edited October 30, 2007 by Miles Scull

[David G. Healy]

Miles Scull wrote:

[...]

Silly nonsense. Let's get some images from the grass & up. Buy Bob some film.

****************

perhaps David Lifton would lend him a spot money for a roll.

[Bill Miller]

Mack and Groden have both said that there is no view to Bowers window from on the steps.

Not good enough. Not by a LONG shot!

The plaza will be there come November, save your pennies and make a trip there and see the scene for yourself. Gary Mack has committed himself on those lines of sight, as well a Robert Groden. Robert even furnished photos taken from underneath the far west-most possible point under Bowers window (which by the way you have never produced any evidence on where in the tower was Bowers sitting during the shooting) and Robert furnished photos from the key locations on the steps. While you seem to take pleasure trolling the forum - I will not participate in helping you xxxxx the plaza. These men went beyond the call of duty while you sit and do nothing but think of ways to keep them jumping at what ever new whim you can come up with. I think its high time you get off your rump and either go to the plaza and take your own pictures or call down there to someone you know and have them waste their time trying to salvage a poorly thought out position that obviously was embraced without first checking the basic facts before bringing it to the forum.

Groden took photos from the Hudson step and from the steps just down from the walkway and never more than the eave of the tower was ever visible.

Furthermore, it has been pointed out numerous times now that Hudson had been sitting on the steps out of Bowers view as the caravan entered the plaza when the men that Lee could see were standing and watching the caravan enter the plaza.

What steps? And when? What about the THIRD MAN?

This ridiculous response goes to what I said in the first paragraph. "What steps" have we been talking about and "what steps" do you see Hudson standing on in the assassination photos and films that you have been erroneously claiming that Bowers could see their alleged plaid coats!?! What's the deal -is there some tactic that once you have exhausted all your avenues for keeping a dead issue alive, then all you have to do is go back over old ground and start pretending to be stupid about what steps we have been talking about ... I'm not playing that game with you.

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON - Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER - It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson's testimony, just like Bowers' testimony, is open to question.

And just what did Hudson say that confuses you. Emmett said he stood up ... he didn't say he stood up and did a Gene Kelly and danced across the knoll over to the steps, but merely stood up - period! So is this where you start in with the 'code language' theory, thus when Emmett said they stood up when the caravan turned onto Elm Street that this means they stood up and walked from point A to point B - if so, it only shows how poorly researched your conclusion was from the beginning that now you must question what "those steps" mean.

You seem to completely overlook that very important point.

Here's a little mental experiment you might try to expand the foundational platform beyond what you have so far considered:

Ask yourself: if I question Bowers, whoa, should I also question Hudson?[/b]

I think the more important thing to do is question Miles Scull to see if it can be determined what his major malfunction is when it comes to not being able to admit that he was wrong because he didn't do a proper investigation before reaching any conclusions on this particular matter. You claim to have been to the plaza, so let us see your pictures. How about telling us who you have had go check and see if what Groden and Mack have independently reported is accurate or not? Instead, you look at Commerce Street in Groden's photo and think that its Elm Street. So knowing that you didn't even study the image well enough to even notice the most obvious of details - just how much more should I risk wearing my welcome out with these guys so to keep you entertained!

So what would be next ... having Groden take a photo from every step while leaning west out over the grass - its a moot point for the other two men were too far east to be seen.

Silly nonsense. Let's get some images from the grass & up. Buy Bob some film.

You have been provided with photos from under the west-most part of the Bowers tower window looking south and from west-most side of the steps looking north. I think its time for you to start producing something instead of asking someone to buy Groden more film.

Bill Miller

Edited October 30, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

This stuff is gold, David ... I think we should ask John Simkin to have a section on the forum just for these fantastic and well thought-out informative responses so that students can go right to them without actually having to read all the unnecessary data on the JFK assassination found in-between.

perhaps David Lifton would lend him a spot money for a roll.

ROTFLMFAO, the irony of it all!... Not fooling me!

Hi Gary! I see you there..... smile.gif

your Baghdad jokes still suck, Willie -- hey, you go to work at the 6th floor Mausoleum yet? BTW, I think Miles intimidates you.... just an opinion!

[Miles Scull]

This stuff is gold, David ... I think we should ask John Simkin to have a section on the forum just for these fantastic and well thought-out informative responses so that students can go right to them without actually having to read all the unnecessary data on the JFK assassination found in-between.

You are quick to find fault with David & extol yourself.

However, I wonder if you can argue the facts without relying ad hominem attacks? Otherwise, maybe you deserve what you suggest for David.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

So, Hudson was standing beside the young fellow when the first shot rang out? Then, what happened? Did the THIRD MAN jump to Hudson's side, pushing the young man down the steps?

THIRD MAN? Where did he come from? The grass? From the top of the embankment?

This is just for starters into carefully looking into Hudson's story.