Jon G. Tidd Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Gene and Greg, Thanks. But question: if Lee and Marina weren't living at Neely Street, where were they living during the time period in question? This Neely Street matter strikes me as being of upmost importance, given the central importance of the BYP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) That is an amazing find, though, Tom. How could anyone support the SBT after reading this memo?The ones that support it and know better, have an agenda. That few that actually believe it -- I can't make any sense out of them at all. Possibly the individuals will believe *anything* said by an authority figure... Was this kept hidden for many decades?I have no idea. IIRC, Harold Weisberg stated that in a personal Carrico stated that the two nurses used scalpels to remove the tie and shirt and jacket. Prior to that the slits were controversial. In a 1997 video interview conducted by the Sixth Floor Museum he states that they used scissors. I don't offhand recall the nurses being asked what they used, but I will re-read their testimony. Tom Edited January 22, 2016 by Tom Neal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Do I get a "You really hit one out of the park for that one"? LOL of course. My Ed Forum sluggers, Tom and Ray! I didn't realize Canadians used baseball metaphors. Hockey was always my favorite sport (and I have the collapsed vertabrae to prove it!) and I imagine you also prefer hockey to baseball.Tom We like hockey lots but American baseball is big up here too. No collapsed vertebrae but I do have one missing tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I didn't realize Canadians used baseball metaphors. Hockey was always my favorite sport (and I have the collapsed vertabrae to prove it!) and I imagine you also prefer hockey to baseball. We like hockey lots but American baseball is big up here too. No collapsed vertebrae but I do have one missing tooth. Only ONE missing tooth? Sorry to hear you spent SO MUCH time on the bench! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) From this previously posted FBI memo: http://s166.photobucket.com/user/ed_mccauley/media/spectrographic%20analysis%20if%20JFK%20shirt%20slit%20and%20back%20bullet%20hole_zpscrmwctem.jpg.html?filters%5Buser%5D=142410050&filters%5Brecent%5D=1&sort=1&o=0 "...near the front of the collar of the shirt a ragged slitlike hole approximately 1/2" in length located 7/8" below the collar button in the overlap of the shirt. The hole has the characteristics of an exit hole for a bullet fragment."Malcolm Perry reported the size of the throat wound to James Humes as 3-5mm. 5mm = 0.2" or 1/5". A 1/2" vertical slit is a characteristic of an exiting 1/5" bullet fragment? Really? "Although the hole appears to have been caused by a bullet fragment, spectrographic examination revealed no evidence of bullet metal."This test did NOT reveal "traces of copper" as was found on the entrance holes in the back of the shirt. In fact it revealed "no evidence of bullet metal." Is this another one of the "characteristics of an exit hole for a bullet fragment?" It appears that this slit was indeed caused when the nurse used a scalpel to cut JFK's tie for rapid removal. Did this action also nick the knot in the necktie? "An elongated nick in the left side of the tie knot was also located which may have been caused by the fragment after it had passed through the shirt."This memo does NOT mention any spectrographic examination of the nick in the tie knot. Considering the above statement "which may have been caused by a bullet fragment", one has to wonder why the "nick" was not ALSO tested. Unless of course, someone decided that the bullet couldn't nick the knot in the tie without first passing through the shirt, which (according to their tests) did NOT happen. And anyway, the slit in the shirt is 7/8" BELOW the collar button and the knot in the tie was AT the level of the collar button, so an alignment issue exists. It seems rather unlikely that the bullet fragment lodged in the "neck wound" so it must have exited the body. It did not exit through the shirt slit, and it could not have nicked the knot in the tie because there is no hole in the shirt behind the nick. If a bullet or bone fragment exited through the "neck wound" without damaging the shirt, then said wound had to be located *above* the collar. I think... Tom Edited January 23, 2016 by Tom Neal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Wieselquist Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) James R. Gordon - #222 - vis a vis shots from SOUTH Knoll (left of "Triple Overpass"): "Jackie is now directly in front of JFK." Not true. The line to JFK from where i'm talking about is at least 60* away from Jackie. "...(the problem of this trajectory is) finding a route past SS as well as John and Nellie Connally." The only problems with shots from SGK are clearing the windshield and the roof support/roll bar. And that big flat support is well forward of JFK. All the other occupants' heads are well below that roof support. True, it is somewhat like threading a needle, but a big fat needle. All it would take is a 15-20* drop from the far right end of the postal parking lot/far right end of the RR tracks to be able to hit President Kennedy. The first shot from SGK, which hit JFK in his throat and exited his back, was much lower than the gunman intended. Maybe it nicked that roll bar, maybe the distance was more than he calculated. Most likely, it was that Greer slowed the car more than Sarti or Souetre was tracking, which would account for it being low, rather than high. The second shot from SGK entered the president's LEFT temple (seen by Dr. Jenkins and Father Huber at Parkland, and by the morticians at Gawler's, when, by that time, it had been plugged with wax), and blew out the right occiput, seen by 60-some at Parkland. This second shot from SGK was almost concurrent with two other shots to the president's head -- one from behind the NGK stockade fence (not "picket fence," for goodness sake!, dear researchers), a frangible that went in the right temple area (as proven by Bob Prudhomme some where, ey?), and exited nowhere, but left a galaxy of bits in the cranium, mostly around the entry wound and the opposite, left side. The third shot to the head was a glancing blow (if it struck him at all, if the Zapruder scalp-flap is not an animated addition to the film) that went along the right parietal, then went on to put a big ding in the chrome windshield frame, dent the back of the rear view mirror, and crack the windshield itself. That shot had a flat trajectory from straight behind, meaning it had to come from a low floor of Dal-Tex or from the hungover George Hickey, waving his AR-15 around like a maniac in the SS followup car. Has anyone noticed this: Nellie's window is the only one not all the way down, and man, is she hunkered down going through Dealey! Also, Greer is sitting low and really hugging that steering wheel most of the time going through the kill-zone. Edited January 23, 2016 by Roy Wieselquist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 That is an amazing find, though, Tom. How could anyone support the SBT after reading this memo?The ones that support it and know better, have an agenda. That few that actually believe it -- I can't make any sense out of them at all. Possibly the individuals will believe *anything* said by an authority figure...Was this kept hidden for many decades?I have no idea. IIRC, Harold Weisberg stated that in a personal Carrico stated that the two nurses used scalpels to remove the tie and shirt and jacket. Prior to that the slits were controversial. In a 1997 video interview conducted by the Sixth Floor Museum he states that they used scissors. I don't offhand recall the nurses being asked what they used, but I will re-read their testimony.Tom Hi Tom Judging from the date on this United States Government Memorandum (26/11/63), this memo might possibly even be hidden in the bowels of the WCR. If anyone reading this knows more about this, I would be very interested to know where this memo eventually wound up, and how long it has been available to the public. I'm just waiting for someone like DVP to show up with a brilliant rebuttal such as, "Well, the bullet was covered in blood and tissue, and this acted as a barrier between the bullet and the collar, preventing the bullet from leaving traces of metal behind." The author of the memo seems to believe there should have been metallic traces on the slit in the shirt collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I didn't realize Canadians used baseball metaphors. Hockey was always my favorite sport (and I have the collapsed vertabrae to prove it!) and I imagine you also prefer hockey to baseball. We like hockey lots but American baseball is big up here too. No collapsed vertebrae but I do have one missing tooth. Only ONE missing tooth? Sorry to hear you spent SO MUCH time on the bench! I was always bigger than the other kids. As they say, "tis better to give than receive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Double post Edited January 23, 2016 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Two facts, rather than opinions. From Tom's memo noted above. "Although the hole appears to be caused by a bullet fragment,spectrographic examination of the fabric surrounding the hole revealed no evidence of bullet metal" The slits, in the front of the shirt, apparently due to an exiting bullet, do not line up. The slit on the outer side of the shirt s longer than the slit on the inner side of the shirt. How could this have happened? For what its worth, I think that these "slits" were made long after the shirt left Parkland. . Edited January 23, 2016 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 The slits, in the front of the shirt, apparently due to an exiting bullet, do not line up. Semantics once again comes into play. To be considered "aligned", I would expect the slits to be coincident along their full length when the shirt is buttoned. If coincident, I think the word "overlap" would be more accurate than "align". However, they chose align, perhaps to give the (false) impression that they are the same, while not actually stating that. They certainly do not 'overlap' as one would expect if they were made simultaneously. The (anatomic) left slit aligns with the center of the button hole, and the right slit aligns with the button. The path traversed by the scalpel through the shirt inflicted markedly different-shaped slits in each layer. Although the lower part of the overlapping shirt was somewhat free to move independent of the top part of the shirt, the shape of the two slips STILL gives the appearance that these slits were made separately. The slit on the outer side of the shirt s longer than the slit on the inner side of the shirt. How could this have happened?By no means am I stating this as a fact, but the top part of the slit which appears to be in the collar *MAY* be a loose thread or possibly two loose threads on top of the collar. These two lines appear to be about 1/2 the width of the remainder of the slit. Does anyone else think this is a *POSSIBILITY*? Admittedly, I may have been staring at the photo for too long... In any case, these slits give the appearance that they were made separately, especially the lower half. Additionally, on the anatomic right side of the shirt, the semicircular lower half of the slit has a 'cut' that is perpendicular to a straight line connecting the upper and lower ends of the semicircle. And this is the LOWER side of the shirt. With the shirt buttoned, how can a scalpel make this cut without cutting the upper side of the shirt? If you are going to 'fake' these slits, wouldn't anyone be smart enough to button the shirt and then make a single slit? And if you are attempting to create an exit for a bullet fragment, wouldn't you make a hole rather than a long slit? It surprises me somewhat to see the collar button still attached to the shirt. Rather than unbutton it while presumably wearing surgical gloves, wouldn't it be faster and easier to 'flick' the button off with the scalpel after first removing the necktie? I wonder if any other buttons remained on the shirt? With the current information available, IMO the most reasonable assumption is these slits were cut with a scalpel in the process of removing the necktie, and have nothing to do with the exit of a bullet or bone fragment. However, questionable aspects of this opinion still remain. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) This photo has always bothered me, as what we are looking at does not make a lot of sense. For starters, I would presume the slits seen under the button and button hole were made to facilitate an easier removal of the shirt at the collar, and yet, neither slit makes it all the way up to the button or button hole. How did these slits help? From what I can see, it would have still been necessary to undo the collar button. Next, I have been on our ambulance here as a part time paramedic for the best part of ten years, and have delivered many patients to the ER. If it is necessary to remove clothing, I have never, on the ambulance or in the ER, seen a scalpel used to remove clothing. The weapon of choice, at least in this part of Canada, is the blunt nosed scissors; capable of cutting through boot leather, heavy canvas and thin sheet metal. I would have cut through the neck loop of the tie with one snip, and cut the corner of the collar holding the button with another snip. I believe the vertical slits in the collar, seen above, were made after the fact to facilitate the SBT, and it is no wonder to me that a spectrographic analysis of the shirt collar did not turn up traces of metal from a bullet. P.S. Judging by the size of these slits, if they had been made by nurses removing JFK's clothing with scalpels, they came very close to stabbing JFK in the neck. Edited January 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Here is something else to think about. If you were going to cut the tie with a scalpel, wouldn't it make more sense to grasp the knot and pull enough slack through the knot, so that the knot of the tie was a few inches out from the collar, and cut through the neck loop of the tie without poking holes through the shirt, and possibly into JFK's throat? The whole "cutting-JFK's-clothes-off-with-scalpels" story stinks to High Heaven, if you ask me. Edited January 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I agree with you, Bob. That's why I think the bullet hole through the throat was an entry point and above the collar as described by the nurses. The "hole in the shirt story" was thought up later. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I would presume the slits seen under the button and button hole were made to facilitate an easier removal of the shirt at the collar, and yet, neither lit makes it all the way up to the button or button hole. From what I can see, it would have still been necessary to undo the collar button.As I mentioned in an earlier post, the "scalpel" theory IIRC came from Harold Weisberg after an interview with C. James Carrico who in a c1997 interview stated that scissors were used. I haven't found all of the interviews with the two nurses but what I have found does not state whether scissors or scalpels were used or which nurse actually removed the necktie. As I said earlier, I don't know why they didn't remove the collar button. Carrico states in testimony that they "opened his shirt" and observed the "neck wound." Considering this, there exists the possibility that they unbuttoned the shirt for this. That's why I asked in my earlier post if the other buttons were still on the shirt. They COULD have used a scalpel to remove the tie, and after the chest was examined, used scissors for the actual removal of the shirt. IIRC the sides of the shirt and the sleeves were cut from bottom to top. I have been on our ambulance here as a part time paramedic for the best part of ten years, and have delivered many patients to the ER. If it is necessary to remove clothing, I have never, on the ambulance or in the ER, seen a scalpel used to remove clothing. The weapon of choice, at least in this part of Canada, is the blunt nosed scissors; capable of cutting through boot leather, heavy canvas and thin sheet metal.In Canada you wear leather boots, heavy canvas and thin sheet metal? I didn't realize the climate was so severe! I believe the vertical slits in the collar, seen above, were made after the fact to facilitate the SBTAlso, as I asked in my earlier post, with a 1/5" round wound exit, why would anyone make a 1/2" slit to indicate a bullet fragment exit in the shirt? Judging by the size of these slits, if they had been made by nurses removing JFK's clothing with scalpels, they came very close to stabbing JFK in the neck.It was his lucky day... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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