The Farce Forum

[Courtney Redd]

This is big news in the UK. We expect the economic problems of the US to spread to the rest of the Western World next year. Today the BBC carried a report on the economic plight of Michigan. Apparently, one in ten of the adult population in the state are applying for free food. As a European, this figure is mind-blowing.

Recently posted at the website of my local NBC affiliate:

(KSDK) - Local scouts are making it easy for you to help those in need. Saturday, Cub Scouts around the St. Louis region went door to door delivering bags for their annual Scouting for Food Drive.

The food drive is the largest single-day food drive in the country, and got its start here in St. Louis.

The canned foods that will be collected by the Cub Scouts will be divided among area food pantries. The faces of people who rely on food pantries have changed over the last 10 years.

The Circle of Concern food pantry in Valley Park is now open on Saturdays to accomodate people who have to work Monday through Friday. Three-fourths of the recipients are what's called, "Working poor."

In 2005, the pantry saw its first recipient with a PhD. The pantry's executive director believes the problem of the working poor will continue to get worse.

"There's been a change in the economy as we've lost manufacturing jobs and we're switching to the service economy," Glenn Koenen said. The service economy creates a lot of more lower paying jobs than it does jobs that provide for a family."

Every month, 350,000 people in the St. Louis area rely on food pantries. That's enough people to fill Busch Stadium twice, the Edward Jones Dome twice, and the Scott Trade Center.

--Rebecca Wu, KSDK

***

Disturbing, isn't it? I think the middle class is disappearing.

[Greg Parker]

It was decided that only the goalkeeper should handle the ball. Rugby School was not very happy with this decision and started their own game. Understandably, the game became known as rugby.

With that logic, Naismith could have called it Springfield or YMCA instead of basketball.

Not at all, Michael. What Naismith invented was not an offshoot or variation of anything else. Rugby, on the other hand, was a "type" of "football". Distinguishing it by locality is no different than variations in the rules of poker are named by region of origin eg Cincinnati, Mexican Stud etc.

Other varieties of football, btw are Gallic Rules and Australian Rules.

greg

http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com

[Michael Hogan]

Not at all, Michael. What Naismith invented was not an offshoot or variation of anything else.

Okay, Greg. Mine was meant in a lighthearted vein....I'm certain you know much more about basketball than I do about Rugby.

But basketball did evolve from another game. It was called Duck on the Rock. See page 14 of Basketball: Its Origin and Development by James Naismith.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yDKtaGdhZ...umbnail#PPP1,M1

[Charles Drago]

Back to John's initiating query:

When Purvis wrote, "The first function of government is control of the populace," he could not have been more correct.

(Being all too familiar with his despicable flag worship and general political amorality, we logically infer that he would insert "properly" between "government" and "is." In other words, he approves. Where do we find such men?)

Government is the artifice contrived and operated by the powerful few to control the disempowered many, who in turn are given no choice but to pledge eternal allegiance to the mechanism of their economic, social, political, and spiritual enslavement.

Purvis, then, reminds us that "control of the populace" is the sine qua non for the survival of the controlling class.

Here's the sad part: We vastly outnumber the bastards, who trump our numerical superiority by keeping us scared of and fighting with each other and convinced that in all respects we are dependent upon them for our very physical survival.

Purvis and his ilk are their bought-and-paid-for muscle. Gratz and his ilk are their bought-and-paid-for tricksters.

Such men and women are, alas, in endless supply.

So!

Are we doomed to an eternal Manichean struggle? If, through some miracle, tomorrow at noon GMT the controllers were to disappear and a new age of enlightened, democratic global society were to arise, would it be only a matter of time before the next generation of controllers evolved?

Or is there an endpoint to our struggle?

Charles

Edited November 16, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Mark Stapleton]

This is big news in the UK. We expect the economic problems of the US to spread to the rest of the Western World next year. Today the BBC carried a report on the economic plight of Michigan. Apparently, one in ten of the adult population in the state are applying for free food. As a European, this figure is mind-blowing.

Recently posted at the website of my local NBC affiliate:

(KSDK) - Local scouts are making it easy for you to help those in need. Saturday, Cub Scouts around the St. Louis region went door to door delivering bags for their annual Scouting for Food Drive.

The food drive is the largest single-day food drive in the country, and got its start here in St. Louis.

The canned foods that will be collected by the Cub Scouts will be divided among area food pantries. The faces of people who rely on food pantries have changed over the last 10 years.

The Circle of Concern food pantry in Valley Park is now open on Saturdays to accomodate people who have to work Monday through Friday. Three-fourths of the recipients are what's called, "Working poor."

In 2005, the pantry saw its first recipient with a PhD. The pantry's executive director believes the problem of the working poor will continue to get worse.

"There's been a change in the economy as we've lost manufacturing jobs and we're switching to the service economy," Glenn Koenen said. The service economy creates a lot of more lower paying jobs than it does jobs that provide for a family."

Every month, 350,000 people in the St. Louis area rely on food pantries. That's enough people to fill Busch Stadium twice, the Edward Jones Dome twice, and the Scott Trade Center.

--Rebecca Wu, KSDK

***

Disturbing, isn't it? I think the middle class is disappearing.

Very disturbing, Courtney.

Some economists have been warning that one of the consequences of globalisation will be that the living standards of the emerging economies will rise, and this will be matched by a commensurate drop in the living standards of Western countries.

However, things are fine for those in the military expenditure sector. One trillion dollars is the global estimate for 2008. The US accounts for nearly half of global military expenditure:

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Ar...ilitarySpending

The burning question for Tim and his ilk---can America still afford the price of a sound night's sleep?

Edited November 16, 2007 by Mark Stapleton

[Greg Parker]

Not at all, Michael. What Naismith invented was not an offshoot or variation of anything else.

Okay, Greg. Mine was meant in a lighthearted vein....

Well, in the same vein, I was going to mention Rhode Island Red Rules for poker, but figured the reference was way too obscure for anyone to "get".

I'm certain you know much more about basketball than I do about Rugby.

I wouldn't count on it. Even Rugby has an offshoot - that offshoot being the game I was brought up with. Ptui to Rugby. As for basketball - I was relying solely on a documentary about Naismith I watched some time ago. If they made any reference to "Duck on the Rock", I missed it.

But basketball did evolve from another game. It was called Duck on the Rock. See page 14 of Basketball: Its Origin and Development by James Naismith.

Not to be picky, but if the first game of "football" had been called "Eton"or something similar instead... your logic would have been infallible.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yDKtaGdhZ...umbnail#PPP1,M1

[Cliff Varnell]

Soviet communism collapsed under the weight of its own excesses--military spending, vs. its lack of corresponding economic productivity. That didn't begin on Reagan's watch; it only concluded then. Just because I'm standing near a train when it derails, it does NOT necessarily mean that I CAUSED the derailment, any more than Reagan CAUSED the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The last point is especially true given the fact that the Soviet Union didn't dissolve

until almost three years after Reagan left office.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/2542749.stm

Reagan wasn't standing anywhere near the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Because the US over-spent billions on defense the Soviets decided they didn't

like Communism anymore?

Bollocks.

Jimmy Carter was much tougher on the Soviets than Reagan.

Carter refused them wheat, boycotted their Olympics, and armed the Afghans.

The latter policy was continued by Reagan.

The only people impressed by tough talk are insecure American right-wingers

(are there any other kind?)

What did Reagan do to back up his tough talk?

He cut-and-ran out of Lebanon, and then decided to jump bad on 30 Cuban

construction workers in Grenada.

He mined the harbor of Managua. He armed and trained death squads in

El Salvador and the contra terrorist army.

He blew away Gadaffi's baby daughter.

He allowed the National Security State to ramp up cocaine importation and

consumption, creating a crack epidemic in American cities and suburbs.

He ran up massive deficits that cost his successor a second term, and the

'93-'94 Dem congress was given the boot for raising the taxes it took to

pay off the Reagan spending spree.

Ronald Reagan -- first class wanker if you ask me.

[Don Jeffries]

Ronald Reagan was a total fraud. From a "conservative" standpoint, he did nothing to slow the growth of the federal "gubmit," which was the foundation of his campaign. Reagan didn't even attempt to abolish the then-infant Department of Energy. Reagan's much balleyhooed tax cuts went exclusively to the most wealthy Americans. Everyone else received several tex increases during his two terms. As Cliff noted, he was never "tough" with the Soviets. When the Soviets shot down an airliner with a United States congressman (Larry McDonald) on board, Reagan did nothing. I'm not suggesting that I think he should been tough with the Soviets, or that he should have cut back on the size of government and cut taxes; it's just that his entire campaign was built around these issues, and the record shows that he didn't even attempt to fulfill any of those campaign promises.

He also accelerated the immigration crisis by granting an amnesty in 1985 that permitted formerly illegal immigrants to bring in huge numbers of family members. I remember a good friend of mine at the time, who was originally from China, raging out on how stupid this idea was, and how disastrous it would be down the road for America. The lust for cheap labor really exploded during the Reagan years, and that led to deindustrialization (with untold numbers of factory workers and other unskilled laborers losing good paying jobs), the outsourcing craze and the current climate, where many upper-middle-class people hire illegals and undocumented workers to mow their lawns, landscape their yards and perform other tasks that were formerly done by the homeowners themselves.

Reagan made a bad situation worse with his tax "reform" act of 1985. It wasn't easy, but RR somehow managed to turn an already far too complicated system into something close to incomprehensible. He also took away some key benefits that were important to the poor and working class. For instance, the "reform" act did away with writing off the interest paid on consumer loans, credit cards and car notes. It also significantly increased the amount one had to pay for medical reasons until one could write them off.

Reagan ensured that what was then only a troubling future for Social Security would evolve into the impossible mess we have to deal with presently. He dramatically raised Social Security tax rates, but again this only effected the poor and working class. What many people don't realize about the Social Security system is that there is a ceiling on the amount of income taxed under it. For years, only the first $50,000 of income was texed; presently it is the first $97,000. Could there be a more ass backwards system? Talk about benefiting the rich! While Barack Obama has recently mentioned wanting to raise this ceiling, the Democrats have been all too silent about this vitally important issue. Unfortunately, the old folks are a pretty powerful lobby in this country, and thus the obvious solution to the crisis- means testing- is never mentioned by any political candiate. Ross Perot gently suggested that we try VOLUNTARY means testing, back during his first presidential run, and even this moderate suggestion was shouted down immediately by the AARP and other lobby groups.

Okay, sorry to rant like that. And Reagan isn't even my least favorite President.

[Tim Gratz]

And no doubt all of Reagan's failures explain why he was voted out of office in 1984!! LOL!!

[John Simkin]

I disagree. Being the Orwell fan you are, you must at least realise that Tom's post 101 (you really couldn't make this stuff up) was chillingly literate.

Maybe it should be put in a Room 101 section of the forum!

[Tim Gratz]

How Will RR Go Down in History? Well, history is here already. And here are the results:

There have been five public opinion polls of the "greatness" of US Presidents since 1999. Here is the ranking of RR in those polls:

1) C-Span Viewer Survey of U.S. Presidents (in 1999):

RR ranked 9 (JFK ranked 12)

2) ABC poll in 2000

RR ranked 5 (JFK ranked 2!)

3) Washington College poll (2005)

RR ranked 2 (JFK ranked 4)

4) Rasmussen Report poll 2007

RR ranked 9 (JFK ranked 6)

5) Gsllup Poll 2007

RR ranked 2 (JFK ranked 3)

Conclusion: in these five polls of public opinion, RR was ranked as second greatest president twice; as fifth greatest once and as ninth greatest twice.

These results of the general public are consistent with the opinions of contemporary historians. The Wall Street Journal polled historians re presidential greatness in 2000 and 2005. RR ranked 8 in 2000 and 6 in 2005. (JFK ranked 15 and 18 respectively--showing that JFK is more highly rated by the public than by historians.)

I have a theory re the success of presidents. By my theory, a successful president is able to be re-elected and able to name his successor. RR was successful under both criteria. Clinton certainly came close since Gore won the popular vote in 2000. Among contemporary presidents, failures by this standard include LBJ, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter and George Bush. (I exclude RN since he resigned and of course JFK does not factor in due to the assassination which prevented his re-election.)

Edited November 16, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Stapleton]

This is big news in the UK. We expect the economic problems of the US to spread to the rest of the Western World next year. Today the BBC carried a report on the economic plight of Michigan. Apparently, one in ten of the adult population in the state are applying for free food. As a European, this figure is mind-blowing.

Recently posted at the website of my local NBC affiliate:

(KSDK) - Local scouts are making it easy for you to help those in need. Saturday, Cub Scouts around the St. Louis region went door to door delivering bags for their annual Scouting for Food Drive.

The food drive is the largest single-day food drive in the country, and got its start here in St. Louis.

The canned foods that will be collected by the Cub Scouts will be divided among area food pantries. The faces of people who rely on food pantries have changed over the last 10 years.

The Circle of Concern food pantry in Valley Park is now open on Saturdays to accomodate people who have to work Monday through Friday. Three-fourths of the recipients are what's called, "Working poor."

In 2005, the pantry saw its first recipient with a PhD. The pantry's executive director believes the problem of the working poor will continue to get worse.

"There's been a change in the economy as we've lost manufacturing jobs and we're switching to the service economy," Glenn Koenen said. The service economy creates a lot of more lower paying jobs than it does jobs that provide for a family."

Every month, 350,000 people in the St. Louis area rely on food pantries. That's enough people to fill Busch Stadium twice, the Edward Jones Dome twice, and the Scott Trade Center.

--Rebecca Wu, KSDK

***

Disturbing, isn't it? I think the middle class is disappearing.

Very disturbing, Courtney.

Some economists have been warning that one of the consequences of globalisation will be that the living standards of the emerging economies will rise, and this will be matched by a commensurate drop in the living standards of Western countries.

However, things are fine for those in the military expenditure sector. One trillion dollars is the global estimate for 2008. The US accounts for nearly half of global military expenditure:

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Ar...ilitarySpending

The burning question for Tim and his ilk---can America still afford the price of a sound night's sleep?

For just a few more disturbing statistics look here http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...meless+veterans

America's economy is well on its way into total collapse except for the top 1% who have been behind the robbery and treachery, long ago planned and now being executed. The sums spent by the current admonsteration on war and not spent on the public good - though never high - are just mind boggling. All middle class people I know in the USA are now struggling. In the 50s a normal middle-class family could live well off of one salary; now they struggle with both parents working overtime and as noted above 40,000,000 don't even have enough money for all the food they need or healthy food. Not to mention [many statistics I didn't mention above] there are now 50,000 home loan defaults each month [that many people loose their homes - and will NEVER EVER have another....it is all downhill now, like the end of Ancient Rome. That some still stand on the deck of the self-torpedoed Titanic and shout 'hurray' is the saddest and most insane manifestation of this self-delusion over the mythology and American Religion. [not here talking about reglion in America, but the 'religious belief that god has chosen America that so many believe - and that by definition is can do no wrong and is being guided by god to better and better things.]

Yes, it appears that from a global perspective, the US is going down. Whether their superior weaponry will help save them is problematical, but with the current Administration in Washington, the only predictable thing is their unpredictability (and their psycopathic condition).

It's interesting that Tim dances around the issue, namely, what does he think of profligate military spending at a time when the US middle class is stretched to breaking point? I wonder if Tim will give this the consideration he gives his many daily posts? If not, one must conclude he cares little about those people.

[Mark Stapleton]

This is big news in the UK. We expect the economic problems of the US to spread to the rest of the Western World next year. Today the BBC carried a report on the economic plight of Michigan. Apparently, one in ten of the adult population in the state are applying for free food. As a European, this figure is mind-blowing.

Recently posted at the website of my local NBC affiliate:

(KSDK) - Local scouts are making it easy for you to help those in need. Saturday, Cub Scouts around the St. Louis region went door to door delivering bags for their annual Scouting for Food Drive.

The food drive is the largest single-day food drive in the country, and got its start here in St. Louis.

The canned foods that will be collected by the Cub Scouts will be divided among area food pantries. The faces of people who rely on food pantries have changed over the last 10 years.

The Circle of Concern food pantry in Valley Park is now open on Saturdays to accomodate people who have to work Monday through Friday. Three-fourths of the recipients are what's called, "Working poor."

In 2005, the pantry saw its first recipient with a PhD. The pantry's executive director believes the problem of the working poor will continue to get worse.

"There's been a change in the economy as we've lost manufacturing jobs and we're switching to the service economy," Glenn Koenen said. The service economy creates a lot of more lower paying jobs than it does jobs that provide for a family."

Every month, 350,000 people in the St. Louis area rely on food pantries. That's enough people to fill Busch Stadium twice, the Edward Jones Dome twice, and the Scott Trade Center.

--Rebecca Wu, KSDK

***

Disturbing, isn't it? I think the middle class is disappearing.

Very disturbing, Courtney.

Some economists have been warning that one of the consequences of globalisation will be that the living standards of the emerging economies will rise, and this will be matched by a commensurate drop in the living standards of Western countries.

However, things are fine for those in the military expenditure sector. One trillion dollars is the global estimate for 2008. The US accounts for nearly half of global military expenditure:

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Ar...ilitarySpending

The burning question for Tim and his ilk---can America still afford the price of a sound night's sleep?

For just a few more disturbing statistics look here http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...meless+veterans

America's economy is well on its way into total collapse except for the top 1% who have been behind the robbery and treachery, long ago planned and now being executed. The sums spent by the current admonsteration on war and not spent on the public good - though never high - are just mind boggling. All middle class people I know in the USA are now struggling. In the 50s a normal middle-class family could live well off of one salary; now they struggle with both parents working overtime and as noted above 40,000,000 don't even have enough money for all the food they need or healthy food. Not to mention [many statistics I didn't mention above] there are now 50,000 home loan defaults each month [that many people loose their homes - and will NEVER EVER have another....it is all downhill now, like the end of Ancient Rome. That some still stand on the deck of the self-torpedoed Titanic and shout 'hurray' is the saddest and most insane manifestation of this self-delusion over the mythology and American Religion. [not here talking about reglion in America, but the 'religious belief that god has chosen America that so many believe - and that by definition is can do no wrong and is being guided by god to better and better things.]

Yes, it appears that from a global perspective, the US is going down. Whether their superior weaponry will help save them is problematical, but with the current Administration in Washington, the only predictable thing is their unpredictability (and their psychopathic condition).

It's interesting that Tim dances around the issue, namely, what does he think of profligate military spending at a time when the US middle class is stretched to breaking point? I wonder if Tim will give this the consideration he gives his many daily posts? If not, one must conclude he cares little about those people.

[Guest Gary Loughran]

I disagree. Being the Orwell fan you are, you must at least realise that Tom's post 101 (you really couldn't make this stuff up) was chillingly literate.

Maybe it should be put in a Room 101 section of the forum!

And with good reason too. He has described my fears.

Thanks for the Reagan debate, being somewhat younger than most here - I only recall Reagan as a so-so actor, I was unaware he also forged a career in politics.

[Tim Gratz]

Mark wrote:

It's interesting that Tim dances around the issue, namely, what does he think of profligate military spending at a time when the US middle class is stretched to breaking point? I wonder if Tim will give this the consideration he gives his many daily posts? If not, one must conclude he cares little about those people.

Mark, an economist used figures from the OECD to convert the national currency of various countries into U.S. dollars. The median household income in California was $54,000, contrasted with only $38,000 in Australia. Even West Virginia, a relatively poor state by US stndards, had median household income of $33,000.

According to Nationmaster.com, the US has 740 television sets per 1,000 people (third highest rate); Australia has 505 per 1,000.

Also according to Nationmaster.com, the US has 1,944 radios per 1,000 people (highest rating); Australia has 1,269 per 1,000.

The US has a 69% rate of home ownership, the same as the UK, while the rate in Germany is only 42% and only 55% in France.

Per the OECD, the US has 256 physicians per 100,000 people' Australia has 247 (the UK has only 230).

The US had 286 patents granted per 1,000,000 people; Australia had 26.

Perhaps you Aussies should increase your military spending if that is the criteria you use as a factor in economic development.