Who were the shooters?

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Just that the two intersect in ways that I do not believe could have been faked. To me this is a crucial overlap of consistency that I feel leads back (not forward) along a 22° line (or thereabouts) to the actual trigger man of the head shot.

Ok...got you now.

Thx for elucidation ..... not to mention enlightenment.

EBC

[Jack White]

Bernice....an interesting mass of information.

However, you quote several people saying OLIVER STONE HAD

ELM STREET REPAVED. I think this is untrue and a myth perpetrated

by someone. I was there during the filming, and the street was NOT

freshly asphalted. Fresh asphalt is almost black. Weathered asphalt

is a medium gray. It would have been very obvious in the movie

it the street was fresh asphalt. Besides, such repaving would be

very expensive and serve no purpose, and would have to be done

by city crews. I am sure Gary Mack can confirm that Stone did not

repave the street.

Someone should put this myth to bed.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice....an interesting mass of information.

However, you quote several people saying OLIVER STONE HAD

ELM STREET REPAVED. I think this is untrue and a myth perpetrated

by someone. I was there during the filming, and the street was NOT

freshly asphalted. Fresh asphalt is almost black. Weathered asphalt

is a medium gray. It would have been very obvious in the movie

it the street was fresh asphalt. Besides, such repaving would be

very expensive and serve no purpose, and would have to be done

by city crews. I am sure Gary Mack can confirm that Stone did not

repave the street.

Someone should put this myth to bed.

Jack

*************

Hi Jack:

Thanks....for the information..

Thought, some people have their asphalt drive ways, I believe it is called

resurfaced in the spring, or early summer weather.....we do up here..

It is not a new asphalt covering but more of a

rolled on surface covering, it seals, and helps to prevent the fissures and cracks from

spreading..and in away it does appear to be fresh and new for a short while...

I am wondering if that is perhaps what they meant. No idea..

Another of the those urban legends..

All......If they will attach,here are two photos showing what the height used to be, with the book,

and the build

up of the asphalt over the years...as seen a few years ago.

All are very welcome, thank you....

B

Edited December 9, 2006 by Bernice Moore

[Ashton Gray]

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

Hi Bernice. I promised eariler that I would respond "more appropriately" to your very informative and very long post when I had more time, and I'm afraid I can only deliver a tiny fraction of a more appropriate reply at the moment, because I'm still under intense deadline pressures. I've been chipping away here and there at attempting to put together a few things, though, and thought I'd better just post what I've got and get to the the rest when I can.

I've tried to set up "shots of shots" from several of the potential shooter locations you indicated as possibilities that have been put forward with testimony, theories, and photos.

Based partly on limited time, and partly on having to work around the limitations of an unfinished "work in progress" 3D model, all I've been able to do is approximate the described or indicated location with the virtual camera, point, and click. I'll include some of my thoughts after the images from each location, but they are after-the-fact-of-looking comments, all with the caveat and understanding that these images only can approximate some of the conditions that day, not re-create them.

In no particular order, here are some of the views.

First, here is what I saw when "looking" from the location of the sewer opening by the lamp post on Elm Street with the JFK figure situated as closely as I currently can approximate the position at the time of the headshot:

And so I zoomed at the JFK figure from there (of whom you barely can see the top of the head and the shoulder):

Although I have my own opinion about this as a potential location for a shooter, I think I will reserve it and let others draw their own conclusions about how much certain variables (e.g., Connoly's position) might or might not have affected a choice of this location for a planned assassination attempt.

Next here is a view from one of the areas shown in the photographs you posted, which I think is also a location Jack White had inquired about earlier in this thread (but I wasn't certain, and he never answered my questions to narrow it down). Anyway, this is from the end of the picket fence near the overpass at the time of the headshot:

Zooming in from that location gave me this:

No, I didn't put a kid there gratuitously. That's the kid in the Z-film, in the location indicated on one of the Dealey plans.

More troubling than that, though, is what I see if I swing the camera to the right from that location:

The three guys are standing in for the railroad workers on the overpass, and the cops are standing in for...well, for the cops.

And now this must be continued in the next post, because I have used up my images-per-post allotment...

Ashton

Edited December 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

Continuting from where I left off in the last post—the position at the end of the picket fence by the overpass—if I look left....

That's the "two men," and old Bowers in the tower. "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right..." Bad day at the assassination office. Moving on...

I dollied across the old overpass to the other side to attempt to get a location that would seem to be about where I understand that Tosh Plumlee thought we ought to look. This is from behind the angled retaining wall on that side, fairly near the overpass, pointed first at the head shot location:

Then at the alleged "throat shot" location:

Then at the alleged "throat shot" location, zoomed:

Of course a shooter from this location would have the workmen on the overpass to contend with as well, and the two cops—whose exact positions on the overpass at any given time I don't know, but the overpass simply isn't a huge expanse.

So there you have it for whatever it's worth, and I know it's at least worth the price of admission.

I dunno, Bernice. This is an interesting exercise for me. I've encountered discussions of all these locations before, and they sound good in theory. But as I've started to add spectators and elements of the scene that day, and actually have had an impetus (as you and others have provided) to go and actually look, suddenly they don't look so good.

The model will continue being improved with greater detail—including a correctly-modeled limo this week, and hopefully some articulated "people" soon to put in the JFK and Jaquie seats—and I will continue trying to provide views that at least can help with visualizations of these things to better assess their practicality for likely inclusion in the planning by very smart and seasoned killers of a dangerous murder that clearly, to me, was planned far, far in advance, with attention to elimination of every possible variable and risk for the perpetrators.

So far, the popular literature locations all seem to have inherent in them extreme potential for catastrophic failure, wild variables, and high risk of being seen, photographed, and even caught.

And it's still my opinion that any actual location for a shooter would have had all of those things carefully assessed far in advanced, and reduced to the smallest possible chance. (I could put all this more bluntly, but I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler Ashton. Poppy would want it that way, and I hate to see him cry.)

I'll do more as soon as I am able.

Ashton

Edited December 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[John Dolva]

Ashton, some time ago I cobbled together the top image here to see what it would look like from the top east window area of the Post Office.(red dot) It seems to me that the headshot is just as the limo enters the alley of which there are people on either side of but none in line. Only the lawn of the GK past Newman to hit with shrapnel or misses. Could you do one from there to see if I got this right and whether Kennedy's head is clear of Jackie, please?

Also here's a then and now composite looking at vegetation, and an elevation view.

Edited December 10, 2006 by John Dolva

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, some time ago I cobbled together the top image here to see what it would look like from the top east window area of the Post Office.(red dot) It seems to me that the headshot is just as the limo enters the alley of which there are people on either side of but none in line. Only the lawn of the GK past Newman to hit with shrapnel or misses. Could you do one from there to see if I got this right and whether Kennedy's head is clear of Jackie, please?

Also here's a then and now composite looking at vegetation, and an elevation view.

Hi John. This looked like something interesting to pursue, but I'm sort of handcuffed because I don't have any plans with an accurate footprint of the Post Office, or any good images of the front of the building to scale against the footprint. So I've looked at the small images of the building you uploaded and just made a box that is a pure guess at size (but approximately correctly located, at least the face of the building and northeast corner), and put a "window" in it close to the location (I think) of your red dot.

Here is a smallish isometric view so you can see if you think the height is anywhere near correct, and the window placement about right:

And here is a distant perspective view as a sort of side-check:

Assuming that's within some workable estimation of location, here's the view I got from the window to the head shot:

And zooming in, I found:

I found it kind of odd that the angle from that corner of the Post Office would put the people to the left of the "lamp post girls" so in the line of fire, but I rechecked it several times and it kept coming out that way. <?>

As you can see, Jaquie also presents a pretty significant problem, if I have the body attitudes even close. Of course she was turned facing JFK, not looking at her feet, but her torso was leaning forward as far as I can tell, which would have put her head (though turned away) approximately where it is. In other words, I can't see it being a viable shot if her head is anywhere even close to where it is shown.

I moved the camera out of the Post Office building, around in an arc to find the first angle I could find where the sidewalk spectators seemed to be sufficiently out of the way, and found myself across Houston floating in the air at a location somewhere in the vicinity of the new courthouse building that was under construction in 1963 (which I don't have represented at all in the model). Here's the close-up from there:

But there's still the Jacquie problem. (Even without a pillbox hat.)

Wish I had better things to report. If you see any way I can improve on the Post Office, let me know and I'll try as soon as I can.

Ashton

Edited December 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Bernice Moore]

Have deleted some of the previous photos..

Here are a couple of photos, from Tosh's area....one from his approximate view.

Also a view from the Records building roof..

Also a map from where the possible shooters were.

....but they do not show a possible shot

from the north end of the fence, that you could possibley draw in, if you or anyone

is interested in doing so.......also the

possible shots from the West end of the TSBD...I do have some further info, but

not yet..

Ashton, will get back to you, I am busy as well ..Do appreciate your time

and work on your drawings...

The Terminal Tower I see as being way too large, and not back far enough, and

the two men if they were responsible for a shot, would have been down right at the north end

of the fence..The one from the street sewer is seemingly the wrong angle somehow..

The photo I am posting of the Plaza shows those two indented ends on the bridge, as it appeared at that time,

the blind spots from anyone who was standing on the bridge. Also one of the post office size in relation to

the other buildings...

Thanks again for a your input, appreciated..

B..

Edited December 10, 2006 by Bernice Moore

[John Dolva]

That's great, Thank you. Ashton, for taking the time to do that. (I'll check a few things and post some details later.)

[Ashton Gray]

I'd just remind people that Plumlee was standing just West of the line between the building and the limo and said he heard a shot over his head. FWIW

Peter, could you please take any of the overviews of Dealey that Bernice has posted and simply mark on it where Tosh Plumlee purportedly was standing, and post it? That would be a great help.

Ashton

[Ashton Gray]

Hi Bernice,

Thanks again for the very helpful photos.

As for the photo "from Tosh's area....one from his approximate view," the only one that seems to have any possibility of being that is the sepia one taken from behind the south pergola. I've posted several images from approximately that position. As with every angle I can find for any of the purported shots from anywhere along the south knoll area, every one of them has a backdrop of spectators lining Houston and Elm (which in many cases is only the least of the problems).

Not only that, any outdoor sniper location anywhere on the south knoll would have made Plumlee and whoever was with him at the very least a potential eyewithness, if not an eyewitness, and the shooter would have been trapped between Plumlee (assuming, arguendo, that Plumlee wasn't an accomplice) and the five people on the overpass, with no protected escape route—just wide open spaces all around.

Although I genuinely want to do what I can to accommodate requests for views from anywhere in this model, I don't want to keep repeating ones that I've already done, and frankly I'm beginning to find these south knoll and overpass-proximity locations a waste of time.

Also a view from the Records building roof..

That view is actually from the roof of the County Courts building, not the adjacent (and connected?) County Records building. I've done several views from the roof of the County Courts building, and that image you posted is over a ground position that puts it on the County Courts, not County Records building.

Also a map from where the possible shooters were.

Thanks very much. I've done images from at least close to several of those, but as soon as I know I have the vertical placement of the pergolas corrected, I'm going to do a new series from each of those.

I will do them methodically and as faithfully as possible, but I'm going to say right now that through the process of doing this to date I am becoming convinced, from my own observations with this model, that a majority of these tendered "shooter locations" fall into two possible categories:

1. The deductions of rank amateurs who cannot come anywhere close to thinking like cold-blooded trained assassins (to their credit), and thereby utterly ignore major drawbacks and liabilities and wild-cards inherent in certain locations, or,

2. Willful, vicious, malicious disinformation that has been flooded into the research community by those with vested interests in preventing the case from ever being solved.

Speaking of which...

....but they do not show a possible shot from the north end of the fence, that you could possibley draw in, if you or anyone is interested in doing so.......

I'm lost by that description, Bernice. I'm going to ask you, as I just did Peter, to please take one of the images and mark the location for me as specifically as possible, the way John Dolva did with his red dot. I genuinely am trying to help, but verbal descriptions leave far too much to guesswork that can lead to a lot of unnecessary double work.

also the possible shots from the West end of the TSBD...I do have some further info, but not yet..

As soon as I get the pergolas properly set into the ground I'll do those. That's going to take a little doing, so bear with me.

The Terminal Tower I see as being way too large, and not back far enough

Okay. I placed it and sized its footprint according to this image, which I think you uploaded for me some time ago:

Then I parallax-corrected photos of it and mapped them onto it, scaling them against the footprint to determine an approximate correct height. If you feel that image showing placement and footprint is wrong, do you have any other reference that might help correct it?

and the two men if they were responsible for a shot, would have been down right at the north end of the fence..

Hmmm. This goes back to your same "north end of the fence" reference above, but the "two men" that Bowers refers to were at the west end of the picket fence, near the overpass—right where the two cops are. And I've just posted four images from that location. Do you want more? What I mean is do you think the "two men" who were there very near the cops and the railroad workers on the overpass are responsible for a shot? If so, and you want to see something from some location other than what I've posted, could you just post an image with a specific location marked? That would clear up any possible confusion over this.

The one from the street sewer is seemingly the wrong angle somehow..

Well, I sure agree with you there.

Seriously, I don't know what to do or say: I put the camera on the "ground" as close as I could get to where the street-level sewer opening appears to be, pointed the virtual camera at the JFK model, and took a snapshot.

How any angle from there could be a viable location for a shot is beyond me, given that there are about 15 or more sets of eyes (including cops and SS agents) that almost couldn't miss a muzzle flash from there even if they were trying really, really hard, in which case any shooter there would be trapped like a rat in a— Well, in a sewer.

The photo I am posting of the Plaza shows those two indented ends on the bridge, as it appeared at that time, the blind spots from anyone who was standing on the bridge.

Okay. I'm not seeing much in the way of hidey-holes, but assuming they are there, then what? After the shot the assassin just doesn't move, and hopes no one comes and looks there? Any dash is across wide open spaces fully visible from the overpass—or into the waiting arms of Tosh Plumlee, right? Or am I missing some important piece of this puzzle?

Also one of the post office size in relation to the other buildings...

That's great. Thanks a lot. I'm going to try to pull a decent footprint from Google maps. Then if I can get a good front view, even from an angle, that has enough resolution, I think I can get the Post Office fairly well represented.

Thanks again for a your input, appreciated.

My pleasure. Thank you for all of yours, which is just invaluable. I've still got lots of work ahead of me putting in details from the many images you've uploaded in this thread and others, and I'm very, very grateful for having all this great reference material.

Ashton

Edited December 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

Having come this far in this thread, and having made a good faith effort to present views in a 3D model from a variety of proposed shooter locations (which I will continue to do as I can), I have reached this point of reductio ad absurdum on this entire question. To my mind, there are two extraordinarily simple possibilities:

1) The government has been open, honest, forthcoming, friendly, brave, thrifty, clean, kind, trustworthy, courteous, reverent, and exhibited all the other Boy Scout virtues at all relevant times, meaning that John F. Kennedy was killed by a lone nut named Lee Harvey Oswald, shooting from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, or,

2) The assassination was planned long in advance and carried out by factions that had to include parties in the United States government, and the actual deed was done by a manageable number of shooters from very well hidden and protected locations that had viable escape routes and cover, including only the most minute possibility of ever being found out or exposed.

I am finding the outdoor locations uniformly burdened with extreme liabilities and extreme risk of detection and capture. I don't mean just inconveniences. I mean like a 75% or better likelihood of catastrophic results. I simply don't believe that the people who planned and carried out this murder were that stupid. Evil does not equate to stupid.

These are opinions, but I feel, at this point, that they are informed opinions based on direct observation in a model that, while imperfect, yet supplies sufficient approximations to make practical observation of potential exposure or disastrous (to the plan) happenstance far too likely to dismiss, even allowing generously for model inaccuracies.

And since I'm stating opinions here, I'm going to state further that I now believe:

• That the sixth floor TSBD location was selected for the patsy frame-up and purported single shooter "sniper's nest" specifically because it has some degree of parity or parallel or other similarity to the actual line or lines of fatal fire, making it a "sellable" scenario, and,

• That the actual shooter location or locations had some very high degree of seclusion, protection, and secured escape routes, and,

• That once such qualified locations are identified and narrowed down, there will be a trail from there leading back through protective coloration and connections that inevitably will open the door to new and profitable lines of inquiry into who the planners and perpetrators actually were—most, if not all, of whom probably are already are in the literature, but have escaped closer scrutiny primarily due to the false "leads" that have been sown all around Dealey Plaza like kudzu, and have grown proportionately to choke the life out of focused analysis.

And that's just how I see it.

Ashton Gray

Edited December 10, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[John Kennedy White]

It appears that Ashton's Hatman location matches Holland's "land of many footprints" description:

[Cliff Varnell]

It appears that Ashton's Hatman location matches Holland's "land of many footprints" description:

I mis-identified the Hat Man "sweet spot" as the Badgeman position in earlier posts.

Sloppy. I stand corrected.

[Ashton Gray]

In the photos below, Plumlee was standing in the Cancellare in the shadows just above the big tail fin on the car at left and in the lower photo where the blue line meets the shade of the trees on the S. Knoll area. The wiggly blue line is the path he drew of where he walked following the shots.

Thanks, Peter. I've also recently found some other reference on this and I will set it up.

The other line ignore for now.

Sure. No problem. And you try not to think of an elephant.

Ashton