Was Muchmore’s film shown on WNEW-TV, New York, on November 26, 1963?

[Paul Rigby]

All perfectly sensible questions. For the moment I'll confine myself to the middle one: The first version did! See Rather on Nov 25...

For those without access to the source:

Dan Rather, Interview with Hughes Rudd & Richard C. Hotelett, CBS radio, 25 November 1963: “…at that instant a second shot hit President Kennedy and there was no doubt there, his head…went forward with considerable violence…,”

Richard Trask, Pictures of the Pain (Danvers, Mass.: Yeoman Press, 1994), p.87

Second example:

Michael T. Griffith, “EVIDENCE OF ALTERATION IN THE ZAPRUDER FILM,” 1998:

“Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film.”

http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/the_critics/gri...Alteration.html

[Bill Miller]

As Altgens' most famous assassination photo reveals, however, a shot was fired from within the motorcade just past the turn - straight up in the air, simulating an aimed shot from the rear.

Paul

I swear that sometimes I believe you to be a plant to make all CTs look like complete off-the-wall lunatics. Please tell me where in Altgens famous photo does it reveal a shot being fired straight up in the air?????????????????????????????????

Bill Miller

[Paul Rigby]

I swear that sometimes I believe you to be a plant to make all CTs look like complete off-the-wall lunatics. Please tell me where in Altgens famous photo does it reveal a shot being fired straight up in the air?????????????????????????????????

Bill Miller

No swearing necessary, Bill, just an enlargement of the relevant hand.

Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams, Murder from Within (Santa Barbara, Ca: Probe, 1974), Chapter 3, “Execution”:

“Just before a freeway sign, the driver began to slow down the presidential limousine.

Suddenly, a shot came from the top of Elm St., now a half block in back of the President. A Secret Service agent in the Vice-President's follow-up car had raised his left hand out of the partly open left, rear window. A revolver was fired skyward.

The crowd's attention was distracted from the presidential limousine by the sudden explosion.”

Late in the same chapter, the authors offer more on the subject:

The Decoy Shot

As the motorcade approached Elm St., an amateur photographer focused his movie camera on the presidential limousine and the front of the depository building. His lens also caught the Vice-President's follow-up car, the third car behind the limousine. This was perhaps a minute before the first shot was fired. The Vice-President' s follow-up car was approaching the left-hand turn into Elm St. when both of its rear doors opened, six to eight inches (Fig. 3-2). According to the film, no one got in or out of the car.

One witness, standing on the southeast corner of Elm and Houston Streets, saw the follow-up car's open doors. After it turned the corner, he "…heard the first report…" which he thought was a car's backfire. The Texas Highway Patrolman who was driving the Vice-President's car thought the shot "…appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice-President's car."

Many witnesses said that the first shot sounded like a "firecracker" or a "backfire" in the street.

Altgens' sixth photograph of those he took in Dealey Plaza (Fig. 3-3) tends to support the contention that someone in the motorcade fired a gun into the air at the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets, when the limousine was about 100 feet down Elm St.

Altgens' photograph, which was taken about three seconds after the decoy shot was fired, when enlarged (Fig. 3-4) shows Secret Service agent Warren W. Taylor, in the rear left seat, of the Vice-President's follow-up car. His arm is outside of the open car door; the configuration of his hand suggests he is holding a gun. Those people in the car immediately behind smelled gunpowder.

So, was Taylor a) hailing a taxi? a sinister version of Dr. Strangelove? or c) firing a distraction shot from the rear, precisely as Newcomb and Adams alleged?

All that needs to be done to refute N&A, surely, as I noted above, is to post an enlargement of Taylor’s arm and hand? Over to you, Bill, or, indeed, anyone interested in disproving the notion.

[David G. Healy]

[...]

Witnesses on the scene said the first shot came between Z186 and Z202. The limo turn came well before the first shot was even fired and between Tina Turner's film and Croft's photo ... nothing out of the ordinary occurred during the limo turn, so why would anyone care to remove part of a film that had no bearing on the actual assassination????

Just wanting to see how much thought you have given the matter ... there is no wrong or right answer.

Bill Miller[/b]

back up here, HOW did "witnesses on the scene" determine that the first shot came between Z186 thru Z202? Were they ("witnesses on the scene") shown the extant film in order to make that determination? We KNOW the NPI saw the film that weekendf so, by whom -- where and when? If NOT who determined this specific timing sequence? Little foundation, counselor, er, DP/JFK assassination film-photo analyst...

A "cite" for at least one of the "witnesses on the scene" would do nicely...

Lone Nutters have been getting away with loose and fancy Z-film posting for a long time, now. Time to provide the BEEF!

Miller on

...there is no wrong or right answer

Miller off

WHAT?

Edited May 11, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Chris Davidson]

I swear that sometimes I believe you to be a plant to make all CTs look like complete off-the-wall lunatics. Please tell me where in Altgens famous photo does it reveal a shot being fired straight up in the air?????????????????????????????????

Bill Miller

No swearing necessary, Bill, just an enlargement of the relevant hand.

Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams, Murder from Within (Santa Barbara, Ca: Probe, 1974), Chapter 3, “Execution”:

“Just before a freeway sign, the driver began to slow down the presidential limousine.

Suddenly, a shot came from the top of Elm St., now a half block in back of the President. A Secret Service agent in the Vice-President's follow-up car had raised his left hand out of the partly open left, rear window. A revolver was fired skyward.

The crowd's attention was distracted from the presidential limousine by the sudden explosion.”

Late in the same chapter, the authors offer more on the subject:

The Decoy Shot

As the motorcade approached Elm St., an amateur photographer focused his movie camera on the presidential limousine and the front of the depository building. His lens also caught the Vice-President's follow-up car, the third car behind the limousine. This was perhaps a minute before the first shot was fired. The Vice-President' s follow-up car was approaching the left-hand turn into Elm St. when both of its rear doors opened, six to eight inches (Fig. 3-2). According to the film, no one got in or out of the car.

One witness, standing on the southeast corner of Elm and Houston Streets, saw the follow-up car's open doors. After it turned the corner, he "…heard the first report…" which he thought was a car's backfire. The Texas Highway Patrolman who was driving the Vice-President's car thought the shot "…appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice-President's car."

Many witnesses said that the first shot sounded like a "firecracker" or a "backfire" in the street.

Altgens' sixth photograph of those he took in Dealey Plaza (Fig. 3-3) tends to support the contention that someone in the motorcade fired a gun into the air at the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets, when the limousine was about 100 feet down Elm St.

Altgens' photograph, which was taken about three seconds after the decoy shot was fired, when enlarged (Fig. 3-4) shows Secret Service agent Warren W. Taylor, in the rear left seat, of the Vice-President's follow-up car. His arm is outside of the open car door; the configuration of his hand suggests he is holding a gun. Those people in the car immediately behind smelled gunpowder.

So, was Taylor a) hailing a taxi? a sinister version of Dr. Strangelove? or c) firing a distraction shot from the rear, precisely as Newcomb and Adams alleged?

All that needs to be done to refute N&A, surely, as I noted above, is to post an enlargement of Taylor’s arm and hand? Over to you, Bill, or, indeed, anyone interested in disproving the notion.

Paul,

Keep up the good work.

What's the arm holding, as usual, we'll probably never know.

chris

[Paul Rigby]

What's the arm holding, as usual, we'll probably never know.

chris

Many thanks, Chris, that's excellent.

At the risk of appearing controversial, I have eliminated the Dr. Strangelove tribute. I'm all together more reluctant to let go of the "summoning a taxi" interpretation. Did Roger Craig definitely rule this out when he described Oswald's vehicle-assisted departure from the TSBD?

Paul

[Bill Miller]

back up here, HOW did "witnesses on the scene" determine that the first shot came between Z186 thru Z202? Were they ("witnesses on the scene") shown the extant film in order to make that determination? We KNOW the NPI saw the film that weekendf so, by whom -- where and when? If NOT who determined this specific timing sequence? Little foundation, counselor, er, DP/JFK assassination film-photo analyst...

A "cite" for at least one of the "witnesses on the scene" would do nicely...

Lone Nutters have been getting away with loose and fancy Z-film posting for a long time, now. Time to provide the BEEF!

Miller on

...there is no wrong or right answer

Miller off

WHAT?

I am sorry, David ... I sometimes forget that you have probably not actually studied the JFK assassination, but it only takes a quick review of your responses to remind me of this. Instead of trolling threads - you should actually read them, then you would know the answer to your question for it has been posted dozens of times in the past.

Here is how you can tell when the first shot was fired ...

Hugh Betzner said that he just snapped his photo just before the first shot sounded. Hugh's photo matched Z186. Phil Willis said that he had heard the first shot that caused him to take his photo. Phil's photo matches Z202. So if one photographer takes a photo and then hears the first shot and the other photographer says that he snapped his photo immediately after hearing the first shot, then would not a reasonable and sensible person be able to say that the first shot came between Z186 and Z202 .... I think thats fair - don't you!

Then there is Mary Woodard who said that the President was passing her location and was turned to his right and waving at her and the women she was standing with when the first shot sounded and struck him. Mary said that the President in reaction to being hit had stopped his wave and brought his hand into the car towards his face. That motion that Mary describes also falls right between the Hugh Betzner and Phil Willis photos.

Now is it OK that I reference this exchange the next time you ask the same question again or will that infringe on your feelings that any repetitive question you ask is somehow copyrighted? LOL!!!

And by the way, what makes someone a lone nutter in your view ... would this be an example ....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...c=5959&st=0

Post #8

David Healy: Of course there's NO proof of film alteration, something I've stated for years

[Bill Miller]

So, was Taylor a) hailing a taxi? a sinister version of Dr. Strangelove? or c) firing a distraction shot from the rear, precisely as Newcomb and Adams alleged?

All that needs to be done to refute N&A, surely, as I noted above, is to post an enlargement of Taylor’s arm and hand? Over to you, Bill, or, indeed, anyone interested in disproving the notion.

Paul,

Keep up the good work.

What's the arm holding, as usual, we'll probably never know.

chris

Let me take a wild guess at what the arm was holding onto ... How about the door frame??? I'll admit that because I thought I was the only person to work a door in such fashion that it must be something conspiratorial and sinister. Makes me wonder why the Feds didn't remove it from the assassination films when according to you guys they had no problem removing an entire non-eventful limo turn onto Elm out of the Zapruder film, while not removing it from several other films.

Yes guys ... great work !!! (sigh~)

Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

I referred to what the arm is holding, not what it's holding onto.

Rephrased:

What is between the arm and the door frame?

chris

[Paul Rigby]

Let me take a wild guess at what the arm was holding onto ... How about the door frame??? I'll admit that because I thought I was the only person to work a door in such fashion that it must be something conspiratorial and sinister.

Yup...you said it.

Now, come on, Bill, give us all a laugh and recreate this grip on a car door and get, say, Gary Mack to photograph you from a position akin to Altgens'. Not content with offering us photographic gibberish, you can add anatomical nonsense to the list of accomplishments.

Paul

PS You might want to have a surgeon on stand-by for this one...

[David G. Healy]

What you say, Miller? Can't hear you

thanks for removing that from your signature block, you can take direction, I see!

Edited May 12, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

I referred to what the arm is holding, not what it's holding onto.

Rephrased:

What is between the arm and the door frame?

chris

Looks like his arm is out to his side and bent upward at the elbow, thus he doesn't appear to be holding something with the arm at all. Is there some reason why you'd think he must be holding something???

Bill

Edited May 13, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Paul Rigby]

Looks like his arm is out to his side and bent upward at the elbow, thus he doesn't appear to be holding something with the arm at all. Is there some reason why you'd think he must be holding something???

Bill

The same Bill Miller a couple of posts ago in this same thread: "Let me take a wild guess at what the arm was holding onto ... How about the door frame???" Perhaps Chris had read your previous posting, Bill?

Portable feasts, Bill's analyses.

So, challenged directly to reproduce the Taylor handgun grip - er, while holding on to the door frame, a very different grip and such a sensible move in the event one needed to close the door in a hurry - Bill drops that interpretation and pretends the very idea that Taylor was holding anything at all is just too, too bizarre for words.

Very impressive.

No wonder the anti-alterationist position is tanking.

Paul

[Bill Miller]

Yup...you said it.

Now, come on, Bill, give us all a laugh and recreate this grip on a car door and get, say, Gary Mack to photograph you from a position akin to Altgens'. Not content with offering us photographic gibberish, you can add anatomical nonsense to the list of accomplishments.

Paul

PS You might want to have a surgeon on stand-by for this one...

Well if your intention is to make CT's as a whole look not only silly, but lazy as well, then you have succeeded IMO. Why is it that you guys are always asking people to recreate images for you ... why not you recreate the image to show that it cannot be done??? I mean, someone would have to be working full-time filling all these request that appear to be nothing but poorly interpreted observations. I am under the impression that if one wants the amount of throw-it-at-the-wall-to-see-if-it-sticks allegations to be reduced, then all one may have to do is ask the person making the allegations to recreate the angles and present them with their allegations. So have at it, Paul!

Bill Miller

Edited May 13, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Paul Rigby]

I first came across a dating of and location for the Muchmore film’s debut in Barbie Zeliger’s Covering the Body: The Kennedy Assassination, the Media, and the Shaping of Collective Memory (University of Chicago Press, 1992), which directed the reader – see p.68 n7 (p.233) - to the December 2, 1963, edition of Broadcasting: The Businessweekly of Television and Radio (Vol 65, No 23), and a piece entitled “A World Listened and Watched.” On p.37, I found the following:

“United Press International claimed it provided the first film for TV of President Kennedy’s assassination when it sold sequences shot by Dallas amateur photographer Marie Muchmore to WNEW-TV New York, which showed it last Tuesday (Nov. 26). The 8mm film, which was enlarged to 16mm, shows the President being hit by the bullets as Mrs Kennedy and a Secret Service agent try to help him. UPI Newsfilm rushed additional copies to its subscribers around the world.”

For those interested in doing their own research in this area, it would seem useful to add to this thread a little background on the owner of Broadcasting magazine, info first posted on the Lancer site:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

Wed Feb-08-06 12:34 PM

The choice of Broadcasting magazine was logical, given its nature, together with the background and politics of Sol J. Taishoff, its co-founder (in 1931) and, in 1963, publisher and editor. Born, like David J. Sarnoff, in Byelorussia, Taishoff was held sufficiently pliant by the U.S. military and intelligence communities to be one of eight men, as of 1972, entrusted with overseeing all broadcasting in the U.S. in a time of national emergency. By coincidence, doubtless, another of the eight, Philip T. Foss, came from the Eastman Kodak Company. (For further particulars, see David Wise’s The Politics of Lying: Government Deception, Secrecy, and Power (New York: Random House, 1973), p.135n in the first edition.)

Paul