Why Don't We Admit Our Mistakes?

[Denis Pointing]

The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported

killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted

this.

Jack

LOL, This place gets more like the Twilight Zone every day. S'cuse me while I go an cancel my subscription to the SI -FI CHANNEL. Who needs it when I can come here for free. LOL

[William Plumlee]

Please don't let this go off-track to a 9-11 specific debate; there are plenty of threads in the Political Conspiracies section in which that can be discussed.

Jack - please see here.

Thanks all.

Tosh has called me a pile of s---, so I will post anything I please to counter his

misinformation.

Why do you censure me instead of him? I thought name-calling was prohibited.

Jack

Jack: Please accept my Apologies for calling YOU a POS. You have not yet got that far in your research, but in my opinion your getting there fast. Perhaps I should have said..., "Your research in this reference is a POS".

However, I have lost a lot of respect for you, because of your position on this matter and others.

How can you say I did not see what I said I saw? What does that say about what you seem to be calling me?

AND too, what has my wife to do with any of this because she works at the Penntagon. Do you see something sinister in that? Are you trying to say something else?

Anyway its not important to me what you think about me or my wife. I will.., to the best of my ability.., try and stay focused on the FACTS and not speculate on anyones theories.

Again I apoligise for turning it personal. I just feel your off your Meds. Hang in there old man you've done good work in the past... lets, together, do some real factual work in the future.

The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported

killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted

this.

Jack

Not sure what that means? Are there Two different people known as Tosh posting as one on this Forum? Is this another conspiercy launched by UFO people? Or is it a CIA thing? Jack the real true story follows:

The real, or the other Tosh who was reported killed in a plane crash, the one who it has been said 'Faked' his own death; was in reality abducted by little green men with short arms and tattoos. He was taken away in a big ole' spaceship along with Follet (?) Bronson's friend. They are on the moon being debriefed as we speak.., in one of those buildings up there. The building.., is on the Dartk Side of the Moon and you can't see it from earth.

The real Tosh should be back soon and has a few pictures he will share with those who are interested. I am not sure if Elves will be with him or not. I think Elves has another engagement and might not be able to make it. I hope Tosh gets back soon. I have had about enough of this Earth stuff and would like to get the Hell out of here. I have work to do on Jopalenia. There in a real war up there and that universe is about to blow and they do not even know it. I do hope I can stop it in time, and save that university. I will try to reach you in your dreams..., If I can get clearences from Gorge and the united League of Tarpanoleis. I am sorry if I offende you.... They told me to say that.

[Josiah Thompson]

It's amusing that this is a thread about people not being willing ever to admit a mistake and here you are throwing out clouds of language to obfuscate your mistake.

You (Fetzer), Costella and White get caught in a gigantic "whoops." You took witness reports and interpreted them in a particular way. Then you compared these reports with the Zapruder and Nix films which don't show what you believe is reported. "Ah hah," you proclaim, "the Nix and Zapruder films have been faked up!"

However, you did sloppy research. A whole bunch of films are consistent with the Nix and Zapruder films and inconsistent with what you say. Whoops! The Muchmore, Bell, Altgens, Daniel and McIntire films/photos all show Chaney doing what the Zapruder and Nix films show him doing and not what you say he did.

So you have a choice: Either all these films and photos... Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore, Bell, Altgens, Daniel and McIntire... have all been phonied up or or you're wrong. Since the former is easily seen as laughable and you cannot possibly ever admit you're wrong, you just confuse things with language.

"You then claim that a later photo shows Chaney waltzing around a corner at low speed..." Nobody said anything about Chaney's speed at this point. It's his position that's critical not his speed.

"You then claim that Chaney dematerialising in Dealey Plaza, and rematerialising near the Stemmons Freeway taking the corner at a leisurely pace with his mates, proves that the films are authentic?" Huh?! No one ever claimed that Chaney ever "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" or was riding at a "leisurely pace." All was claimed is that Chaney did exactly as he is shown to have done in the Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films. He dropped back just after the head shot.

Given a choice between a laughable conclusion or admitting you're wrong you try to hornswoggle everyone with nonsense when the situation is simple and clear. Gee, what a surprise! The sad thing is that this sort of behavior when publicised makes all of us who doubt the official theory seem like egomaniacal wingnuts.

What kind of an "investigator" has his hat handed to him on another forum,

then comes here to start a new thread acting as though he had prevailed?

(1) phony? (2) fraud? (3) fake? (4) all of the above? Take your choice. If he

is serious about admitting mistakes, then he is the right person to 'fess up!

RE: Fwd: [jfk-research] Re: How about a couple of answers fromFetzer? (7 of 19)

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:29:18 +1100 [02/18/2008 12:29:18 AM CST]

From: John Costella <jpcostella@hotmail.com>

To: jfetzer@d.umn.edu, jfk-research@yahoogroups.com, 'gumshoe882000' <josiah@direcway.com>

Cc: jwjfk@flash.net

Reply-To: costella@bigpond.com

Subject: RE: Fwd: [jfk-research]Re: How about a couple of answers fromFetzer?

Tink,

I am sure Jim or you will remind me what the philosophy term is for ignoring

all of the evidence and asserting that the contrary is true, on the hope

that a tired reader will believe your assertion without reading the details.

You have not shown, in any way, that the photographic evidence disproves

anything -- but you assert that it does. Voila! What ham-fisted sleight of

hand.

Let's strip the bloviation out. The Plaza films (Nix, Z) show Chaney

braking, never passing the back of the limo. The limo accelerates off and

catches up to the lead car, with the films (Z, Nix, Bell, Daniel) leaving no

possibility of Chaney getting between them before they are astride each

other as they go under the triple underpass.

You then claim that a later photo shows Chaney waltzing around a corner at

low speed, with his colleagues, up ahead of the limo and lead car. This is

an identification that those who know debate to this day -- I don't have any

answer one way or the other on this; but let's say you are right. You then

claim that Chaney dematerialising in Dealey Plaza, and rematerialising near

the Stemmons Freeway taking the corner at a leisurely pace with his mates,

proves that the films are authentic? How on earth do you come to this

conclusion?

The eyewitnesses describe Chaney going ahead of the limo, to tell Curry that

JFK has had his head blown off, before the lead car gets to the triple

underpass. That makes sense -- the Plaza films show the two cars astride as

they come through the triple underpass, where all witnesses agree that there

was yelling between the two cars to get to a hospital. After that, there was

no need to motor ahead to tell Curry the news.

So where else could the Chaney incident have happened? Everyone involved who

specified a location said it happened while still in Dealey Plaza. Your own

set of interlocking films establishes it to be the only place it could have

happened. So why do you insist that it happened much later? If you're going

to ignore the evidence, why not have it happening near Parkland -- or, for

that matter, during JFK's Miami motorcade?

I have no idea what you're smoking these days, Tink, but I sure hope no

important PI cases require your investigative skills.

John

Dr. John P. Costella

jpcostella@hotmail.com

costella@bigpond.com

john.costella@gmail.com

skype: john.costella

http://assassinationscience.com/johncostella

-----Original Message-----

From: jfetzer@d.umn.edu [mailto:jfetzer@d.umn.edu]

Sent: Monday, 18 February 2008 4:44 PM

To: jfk-research@yahoogroups.com; gumshoe882000

Cc: jwjfk@flash.net; jpcostella@hotmail.com; jfetzer@d.umn.edu

Subject: Re: Fwd: [jfk-research] Re: How about a couple of answers

fromFetzer?

A bit of straight, blunt talk:

Why are you obsessed with me? I am one part of a research group that

includes David W. Mantik, John P. Costella, Jack White, and others,

in the past including Robert Livingston and Charles Crenshaw. When I

write and identify different questions as having come from different

sources, as in this instance, why don't you reply to John Costella,

Jack White, and me SEPARATELY? Is something wrong with you such that

you cannot distinguish between us? This appears to be a serious kind

of sickness. Have you considered therapy? Frankly, it bothers me.

Now John's question may have been somewhat naive in this instance

because it was based upon Jack's description of what you had said,

which may have been incomplete. So what? You can answer John's

question without confounding John and me. Children less than one

year old are able to discriminate between different persons. Why

are you--a white male over the age of 70 and a Yale graduate, to

boot--chronically unable to do so? And if this is a deliberate

confusion, what does it tell us about your integrity and mind?

John has unearthed definitive evidence that the films do not show

what they would have to show if they were accurate, given a mass

of testimony from Chief Curry, Forrest Sorrels, Winston Lawson,

Bobby Hargis, James Chaney, and Marrion Baker, even if you leave

Stavis Ellis to one side. (It astounds me how casually you can

dismiss the testimony of someone who was not only there but was

leading the motorcade.) Why have you not responded to this post,

which, of course, I introduced into the discussion some time ago:

[Dawn Meredith]

Please don't let this go off-track to a 9-11 specific debate; there are plenty of threads in the Political Conspiracies section in which that can be discussed.

Jack - please see here.

Thanks all.

Tosh has called me a pile of s---, so I will post anything I please to counter his

misinformation.

Why do you censure me instead of him? I thought name-calling was prohibited.

Jack

Jack: Please accept my Apologies for calling YOU a POS. You have not yet got that far in your research, but in my opinion your getting there fast. Perhaps I should have said..., "Your research in this reference is a POS".

However, I have lost a lot of respect for you, because of your position on this matter and others.

How can you say I did not see what I said I saw? What does that say about what you seem to be calling me?

AND too, what has my wife to do with any of this because she works at the Penntagon. Do you see something sinister in that? Are you trying to say something else?

Anyway its not important to me what you think about me or my wife. I will.., to the best of my ability.., try and stay focused on the FACTS and not speculate on anyones theories.

Again I apoligise for turning it personal. I just feel your off your Meds. Hang in there old man you've done good work in the past... lets, together, do some real factual work in the future.

The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported

killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted

this.

Jack

Good God in heaven. I spoke many times with Tosh before his absence and we have spoken pretty much daily of late and I can attest that it is the same person. We have discussed posts, responses to, backbiting on the forum, trying to accomplish something of validity. Especially with the advent of a DA who appears open to listening to our side. Why can't we just leave 9-11 out of this? This is a forum for the assassination of JFK. There is a whole section devoted to political conspiracies. Tosh apologised Jack, let's move on. Let's get the focus back on Dallas, there is much work to be done. As Bill Kelly has pointed out there needs to be a citizens pannel to guide this DA. He's already on record in not accepting the official version. This is BIG people. Can't we put our petty differences aside?

Dawn

[Denis Pointing]

This is part of a post I recently wrote on another thread, I think it equally apt here:

I belive Fetzer an Co to be members of what I regard to be the lunatic fringe of this case. I belive their paranoid ravings to be an embarrassment to serious researchers. I belive their sensationalist rantings do nothing but damage to our cause. Bluntly, these NUTTERS are the reason why so many of the general public laugh at us and more importantly refuse to even listen to our arguments or take us seriously. Oh yeah, I also dislike them because I'm secretly a top level operative for the C.I.A. planted here as a disinformation agent. Just thought I'd add the last bit before they did. Denis.

[Bill Miller]

The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported

killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted

this.

Jack

LOL, This place gets more like the Twilight Zone every day. S'cuse me while I go an cancel my subscription to the SI -FI CHANNEL. Who needs it when I can come here for free. LOL

I was laughing when I read Jack's remarks and about lost it to tears when I saw yours. Them guys have made the forum something between 'The Gong Show' and 'The Springer Show'. Maybe Rene Dahinden said it best .... "Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.”

[Bill Miller]

Oh yeah, I also dislike them because I'm secretly a top level operative for the C.I.A. planted here as a disinformation agent. Just thought I'd add the last bit before they did. Denis.

Expect a thread soon asking 'just how credible is Denis?' .... You see ... I think like CIA and if you were with the CIA - you'd love the things Jim and Jack keep coming up with IMO. Why would the CIA want to interfere when these guys are their worse enemies.

[Jack White]

Please don't let this go off-track to a 9-11 specific debate; there are plenty of threads in the Political Conspiracies section in which that can be discussed.

Jack - please see here.

Thanks all.

Tosh has called me a pile of s---, so I will post anything I please to counter his

misinformation.

Why do you censure me instead of him? I thought name-calling was prohibited.

Jack

Jack: Please accept my Apologies for calling YOU a POS. You have not yet got that far in your research, but in my opinion your getting there fast. Perhaps I should have said..., "Your research in this reference is a POS".

However, I have lost a lot of respect for you, because of your position on this matter and others.

How can you say I did not see what I said I saw? What does that say about what you seem to be calling me?

AND too, what has my wife to do with any of this because she works at the Penntagon. Do you see something sinister in that? Are you trying to say something else?

Anyway its not important to me what you think about me or my wife. I will.., to the best of my ability.., try and stay focused on the FACTS and not speculate on anyones theories.

Again I apoligise for turning it personal. I just feel your off your Meds. Hang in there old man you've done good work in the past... lets, together, do some real factual work in the future.

The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported

killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted

this.

Jack

Good God in heaven. I spoke many times with Tosh before his absence and we have spoken pretty much daily of late and I can attest that it is the same person. We have discussed posts, responses to, backbiting on the forum, trying to accomplish something of validity. Especially with the advent of a DA who appears open to listening to our side. Why can't we just leave 9-11 out of this? This is a forum for the assassination of JFK. There is a whole section devoted to political conspiracies. Tosh apologised Jack, let's move on. Let's get the focus back on Dallas, there is much work to be done. As Bill Kelly has pointed out there needs to be a citizens pannel to guide this DA. He's already on record in not accepting the official version. This is BIG people. Can't we put our petty differences aside?

Dawn

Dawn...I have long held Tosh in high regard (despite his calling me a Pile Of S.). I am commenting that

since he arose from the dead, his writing style has improved greatly in my observation. Maybe he was

"away" taking a crash course in writing.

I am not the only one to make this observation.

Jack

[Evan Burton]

It was not Tink, it was Tosh. Please read more carefully.

Jack

Yep - I didn't read the post properly.

Josiah - my apologies for the error.

Tosh - the comments applied to you.

[Thomas Graves]

Why doesn’t anyone ever admit they made a mistake? [...]

_____________________________________

OK. I admit it. I made a mistake.

Once.

--Thomas

_____________________________________

Edited February 25, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[John Simkin]

It is a shame that this thread that started out as a sensible discussion on the problems of admitting mistakes has turned into another slanging match on 9/11.

[Wim Dankbaar]

An old post:

QUOTE(dankbaar @ Jul 13 2004, 03:48 PM)

Jack,

You are turning the world upside down. When people disagree with

some of your claims, you call them provocateurs, accuse them of unfair and

personal attacks, bad behaviour etcetera, a thin excuse to avoid answering

real and valid questions, like what conspiratoral purpose is served by

putting Mary Moorman on the street or switching Mrs. Franzen for a "mystery

woman".

Who do you think you are to judge who are good and bad members?

While I can acknowledge you have done some excellent

photographical analysis, particularly on the backyard photographs, some of

your alteration claims are indeed nutty.

When reasonable input is brought to him, James Fetzer can admit he

needs to revise some of your work. But you simply seem unable to admit that

you can be wrong.

While I do not always agree with Bill Miller, I have never found

his behaviour less than impecable. So who is attacking who here? I share a

similar experience with him on the forum of Mr. della Rosa's, whom you

marvel so much. And I understand we're not the only ones. The common

denominator seems to be not our behaviour but the mere fact we challlenge

your claims.

You agreed to answer questions, but the tough ones you ignore.

Who do you think you are to play victim of unfair treatment, while

at the same time you may accuse Judyth Baker of lying and making up "phoney

claims" (your words). Who do you think you are to suggest it is right that

her supporters are denied access from defending her against your very

personal attacks. With a man of your grandness I must assume that the fact

that she totally ruins your "Harvey and Lee/Marguerite A and B" theories,

have nothing to do with your denouncements of her?

Think of that folks, there were not only 2 different Oswalds,

according to Jack, there were two different mothers (Marguerites), as early

as 7 years before the Kennedy assassination. And those who dare to challenge

that are provocateurs and liars. Well, Jack, I am not going to sit by idle

when you accuse what I consider extremely brave people, like Judyth Baker

and Chauncey Holt, of liars and hoaxes. If you want to brand that as

disruptive behaviour, so be it. I'm not falling for it, even if I would be

the only one.

You probably don't want to see a tie between Ochsner and Oswald,

but other people might be interested:

http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19

Read the backflap of this 1964 longplayer sponsored by Ochsner's

INCA, they are called "the truth tapes", implicating Lee as the lone

assassin. What does the head of the american cancer society have to do with

blaming Oswald as the lone psychopath nut ???? The answer is 1) a CANCER

bioweapon and 2) covering his ass!

Wim

Edited February 25, 2008 by Wim Dankbaar

[William Plumlee]

An old post:

QUOTE(dankbaar @ Jul 13 2004, 03:48 PM)

Jack,

You are turning the world upside down. When people disagree with

some of your claims, you call them provocateurs, accuse them of unfair and

personal attacks, bad behaviour etcetera, a thin excuse to avoid answering

real and valid questions, like what conspiratoral purpose is served by

putting Mary Moorman on the street or switching Mrs. Franzen for a "mystery

woman".

Who do you think you are to judge who are good and bad members?

While I can acknowledge you have done some excellent

photographical analysis, particularly on the backyard photographs, some of

your alteration claims are indeed nutty.

When reasonable input is brought to him, James Fetzer can admit he

needs to revise some of your work. But you simply seem unable to admit that

you can be wrong.

While I do not always agree with Bill Miller, I have never found

his behaviour less than impecable. So who is attacking who here? I share a

similar experience with him on the forum of Mr. della Rosa's, whom you

marvel so much. And I understand we're not the only ones. The common

denominator seems to be not our behaviour but the mere fact we challlenge

your claims.

You agreed to answer questions, but the tough ones you ignore.

Who do you think you are to play victim of unfair treatment, while

at the same time you may accuse Judyth Baker of lying and making up "phoney

claims" (your words). Who do you think you are to suggest it is right that

her supporters are denied access from defending her against your very

personal attacks. With a man of your grandness I must assume that the fact

that she totally ruins your "Harvey and Lee/Marguerite A and B" theories,

have nothing to do with your denouncements of her?

Think of that folks, there were not only 2 different Oswalds,

according to Jack, there were two different mothers (Marguerites), as early

as 7 years before the Kennedy assassination. And those who dare to challenge

that are provocateurs and liars. Well, Jack, I am not going to sit by idle

when you accuse what I consider extremely brave people, like Judyth Baker

and Chauncey Holt, of liars and hoaxes. If you want to brand that as

disruptive behaviour, so be it. I'm not falling for it, even if I would be

the only one.

You probably don't want to see a tie between Ochsner and Oswald,

but other people might be interested:

http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19

Read the backflap of this 1964 longplayer sponsored by Ochsner's

INCA, they are called "the truth tapes", implicating Lee as the lone

assassin. What does the head of the american cancer society have to do with

blaming Oswald as the lone psychopath nut ???? The answer is 1) a CANCER

bioweapon and 2) covering his ass!

Wim

Wim;

Careful, careful, or the "Boggy man" will get you for using that bad bad word.

I for one happen to believe Judith and you know my feelings about Holt. Jimmy is another matter, as you know. Judith, I believe because of things I knew about long before I even heard of her. It was those early tie ins which caused me to side with her. We all make mistakes and sometimes do not present our cases or points in the right manner or framed them in such a way that others think should be.

As to Jack. He is a very good man and as we all know has done exceptional work in the past. We might not always agree with him, as you and I know, but each of us in our own way does try to help solve difficult cases and expose things we feel are true. Our intentions are good and we stand behind what we know and believe. There are others who have other motives and they know who they are.

By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.

note: from an eye whitness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetary with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pennagon, overthere", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.

From Sam Bartel of Greensberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."

There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".

The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboad was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.

Edited February 25, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Jack White]

An old post:

QUOTE(dankbaar @ Jul 13 2004, 03:48 PM)

Jack,

You are turning the world upside down. When people disagree with

some of your claims, you call them provocateurs, accuse them of unfair and

personal attacks, bad behaviour etcetera, a thin excuse to avoid answering

real and valid questions, like what conspiratoral purpose is served by

putting Mary Moorman on the street or switching Mrs. Franzen for a "mystery

woman".

Who do you think you are to judge who are good and bad members?

While I can acknowledge you have done some excellent

photographical analysis, particularly on the backyard photographs, some of

your alteration claims are indeed nutty.

When reasonable input is brought to him, James Fetzer can admit he

needs to revise some of your work. But you simply seem unable to admit that

you can be wrong.

While I do not always agree with Bill Miller, I have never found

his behaviour less than impecable. So who is attacking who here? I share a

similar experience with him on the forum of Mr. della Rosa's, whom you

marvel so much. And I understand we're not the only ones. The common

denominator seems to be not our behaviour but the mere fact we challlenge

your claims.

You agreed to answer questions, but the tough ones you ignore.

Who do you think you are to play victim of unfair treatment, while

at the same time you may accuse Judyth Baker of lying and making up "phoney

claims" (your words). Who do you think you are to suggest it is right that

her supporters are denied access from defending her against your very

personal attacks. With a man of your grandness I must assume that the fact

that she totally ruins your "Harvey and Lee/Marguerite A and B" theories,

have nothing to do with your denouncements of her?

Think of that folks, there were not only 2 different Oswalds,

according to Jack, there were two different mothers (Marguerites), as early

as 7 years before the Kennedy assassination. And those who dare to challenge

that are provocateurs and liars. Well, Jack, I am not going to sit by idle

when you accuse what I consider extremely brave people, like Judyth Baker

and Chauncey Holt, of liars and hoaxes. If you want to brand that as

disruptive behaviour, so be it. I'm not falling for it, even if I would be

the only one.

You probably don't want to see a tie between Ochsner and Oswald,

but other people might be interested:

http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19

Read the backflap of this 1964 longplayer sponsored by Ochsner's

INCA, they are called "the truth tapes", implicating Lee as the lone

assassin. What does the head of the american cancer society have to do with

blaming Oswald as the lone psychopath nut ???? The answer is 1) a CANCER

bioweapon and 2) covering his ass!

Wim

Dankbaar denies that there were TWO MARGUERITES when the photo

evidence shows otherwise.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"LOL, This place gets more like the Twilight Zone every day. S'cuse me while I go an cancel my subscription to the SI -FI CHANNEL. Who needs it when I can come here for free. LOL"

Yep!

Looks as if our work is complete here.

I got my "bonus" check and re-assignment over to Lancer's forum.

Are you coming over there or did you draw McAdam's site?

P.S. Please close the (secret) phonebooth door next time. I had difficulty getting it to open correctly when I reported in.