Ruby's Route to a Murder and Bugliosi's Blunder

[James DiEugenio]

I don't think DVP understands what I am talking about.

If such a thing would have been natural for Ruby he would not have disguised himself as he did nor interjected himself into the discussion. Thereby drawing attention to himself.

As per Robert Blakey, he has always maintained the SBF.  And he does to this day.

So you are saying that since he thinks Ruby stalked LHO and killed him for the Mob, that is being a Conspiracy Theorist?

For Blakey, its easier to buy that than the impossible SBF and he is now a Conspiracy Theorist?  This is the guy who attacked Stone viciously back in 1991.

And DVP does not see the irony in it.

Edited March 26, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

51 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't think DVP understands what I am talking about.

If such a thing would have been natural for Ruby, he would not have disguised himself as he did nor interjected himself into the discussion. Thereby drawing attention to himself.

I think you're overstating Jack's "disguise".

Also -- Why didn't Ruby kill Oswald at the midnight press conference on Friday night? He said he had his gun on him at that time. Why wait till Sunday?

 

Quote

As per Robert Blakey, he has always maintained the SBF.  And he does to this day.

So you are saying that since he thinks Ruby stalked LHO and killed him for the Mob, that is being a Conspiracy Theorist?

Yes. Of course it is. Without question.

Blakey, in fact, believes in a pretty massive conspiracy surrounding not only the murder of JFK (by the Mob), but the murder of Oswald (by the Mob, via Ruby). If that's not enough to classify Mr. Blakey as a "conspiracy theorist", then what would be enough?

Edited March 26, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

57 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

David, it's a simple question...

DVP? Do you really think that Ruby acted spontaneously, out of sorrow for the Kennedy family?

Whatever Ruby's motive might have been (and it was never proven exactly what that motive might have been), there's no question (in my mind anyway) that Ruby's actions and movements on 11/24/63 were positively "spontaneous" and unplanned. The timing of Karen Carlin's 10:19 AM phone call and the sending of the Western Union telegram at 11:17 AM are two things that indicate the "unplanned" nature of Ruby's murder of Oswald that day....with both of those things occurring AFTER the scheduled (and announced) 10:00 AM transfer of Lee Oswald.

As much as it might LOOK (on the surface) like a "Mob hit" on Oswald in the Dallas police basement, given the details of Jack Ruby's movements and actions and phone calls on the morning of November 24th, I cannot see any way to wedge a pre-planned conspiracy into Ruby's activities that day.

Edited March 26, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Andrews]

17 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Ruby seen sitting in a green car  behind the TV cameras, getting out off the car, jumping over the rail of the basement parking area and shooting Oswald. 

 

 

Maybe Ruby sitting in the car is the reason the other car's horn had to be blown as a signal that Oswald was being brought out - though Ruby wes on the spot before the horn blew.

[James DiEugenio]

Davey relies on the Carlin call and the WU transfer to say it was a spontaneous action by Ruby.   These two excuses are as old as the hills. What was amazing is that Bugliosi relied upon them also.   Which is what is wrong with DVP's research.

First, there were four witnesses who saw Ruby at the station that morning at around 9:30.  He asked one of them if Oswald had been brought down yet.

Now, one thing that the WC relied upon, as does Bugliosi is this: not making the spatial relationships clear.  It only takes about 15-20 minutes to drive from Ruby's apartment to City Hall.  Therefore, if the Carlin call came in at about 10:20, then that was fine for time considerations.

Now, to the Carlins.  I examined the record on this issue, with the help of Greg Parker, like no one did before.  First, Ruby had already given Karen an advance on Saturday night.  Therefore, the Commission had to create an excuse for the next morning phone call and the WU wire.  With the help of the Secret Service,  they did. It turned out to be rent and groceries.

But yet, when the SS talked to the landlord he said there was never any rigid schedule for the rent, and he never presented a demand for payment!  In fact, at the first interview the SS never asked him about the rent at all.  In examining their testimony it is clear that the FBI and SS harassed them into keeping this phony story straight, to the point that Bruce Carlin lost his job over it!  Karen Carlin admitted to the DPD that she had been pre interviewed SEVEN TIMES!

All for a simple rent and groceries story?  I don't think so.  Which is why the Carlins showed up with a lawyer, something few witnesses did. But still, Karen said that it was Ruby's idea to send the money by WU.  The WC tried to talk her out of this, and she said, "I won't say for sure about anything. I'm not sure about nothing anymore."  If I had been interrogated seven times, that is what I would say also. In addition to losing his job, Bruce said some of the FBI calls took place in the middle of the night.

But why would Ruby insist on the WU wire that Sunday morning?  It goes back to the WC not being clear about the spatial relationships.  See, back in the nineties someone sent me a photo taken from the back of City Hall. Looking out that back door, you can clearly see the WU station.  In other words, once everything was in place, that is Ruby and Oswald, all that Dean or Croy had to do was wave across the street to Ruby.  It takes about 2 minutes and 20 seconds to traverse from the WU station to inside the parking lot.  

This is why Dean had to lie to Griffin about that back door. This is why the DPD did not send Lt. Don Flusche to the WC.  Flusche had his car parked across the street from the Main Street ramp well in advance since he wanted to see the Oswald transfer.  He knew Ruby and he said with utter certitude Ruby was never near that ramp before he shot Oswald. (Reclaiming Parkland, pgs. 225-28)

This one is a real loser for you Davy.   Blakey was right about it.

Edited March 26, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Karl Kinaski]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Davey relies on the Carlin call and the WU transfer to say it was a spontaneous action by Ruby.   These two excuses are as old as the hills. What was amazing is that Bugliosi relied upon them also.   Which is what is wrong with DVP's research.

First, there were four witnesses who saw Ruby at the station that morning at around 9:30.  He asked one of them if Oswald had been brought down yet.

Now, one thing that the WC relied upon, as does Bugliosi is this: not making the spatial relationships clear.  It only takes about 15-20 minutes to drive from Ruby's apartment to City Hall.  Therefore, if the Carlin call came in at about 10:20, then that was fine for time considerations.

Now, to the Carlins.  I examined the record on this issue, with the help of Greg Parker, like no one did before.  First, Ruby had already given Karen an advance on Saturday night.  Therefore, the Commission had to create an excuse for the next morning phone call and the WU wire.  With the help of the Secret Service,  they did. It turned out to be rent and groceries.

But yet, when the SS talked to the landlord he said there was never any rigid schedule for the rent, and he never presented a demand for payment!  In fact, at the first interview the SS never asked him about the rent at all.  In examining their testimony it is clear that the FBI and SS harassed them into keeping this phony story straight, to the point that Bruce Carlin lost his job over it!  Karen Carlin admitted to the DPD that she had been pre interviewed SEVEN TIMES!

All for a simple rent and groceries story?  I don't think so.  Which is why the Carlins showed up with a lawyer, something few witnesses did. But still, Karen said that it was Ruby's idea to send the money by WU.  The WC tried to talk her out of this, and she said, "I won't say for sure about anything. I'm not sure about nothing anymore."  If I had been interrogated seven times, that is what I would say also. In addition to losing his job, Bruce said some of the FBI calls took place in the middle of the night.

But why would Ruby insist on the WU wire that Sunday morning?  It goes back to the WC not being clear about the spatial relationships.  See, back in the nineties someone sent me a photo taken from the back of City Hall. Looking out that back door, you can clearly see the WU station.  In other words, once everything was in place, that is Ruby and Oswald, all that Dean or Croy had to do was wave across the street to Ruby.  It takes about 2 minutes and 20 seconds to traverse from the WU station to inside the parking lot.  

This is why Dean had to lie to Griffin about that back door. This is why the DPD did not send Lt. Don Flusche to the WC.  Flusche had his car parked across the street from the Main Street ramp well in advance since he wanted to see the Oswald transfer.  He knew Ruby and he said with utter certitude Ruby was never near that ramp before he shot Oswald. (Reclaiming Parkland, pgs. 225-28)

This one is a real loser for you Davy.   Blakey was right about it.

Brilliant summary. I think someone ( a spotter) was waiting at the windows of the DPD for Ruby that morning, therefore the delays in the transfer. When Ruby left the WESTERN UNION OFFICE, they started the transfer. It can be done by sight. Ruby entered the basement, as indicated in my sketch below, via the steps or the service elevator at the east side of the DPD-Building. He  got into a green car, directly behind the cameras, waiting for his signal, getting it, get out of the green car, jumping over the rail of the basement parking area and shot his target. The whole transfer was a staged event with sole purpose to kill Oswald.  

Edited March 26, 2018 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

The blue arrow marks the way Ruby went, note: the green car he sat down, waiting for his target. 

 

[Karl Kinaski]

The testimony of Roy Eugene Vaughn was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

VAUGHN stood at the Main Str. entrance to the DPD basement, as indicated in my first sketch above.

Quote:

Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was impossible---they would have had to go either to the left or fight of you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening? 
Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you? 
Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me. 
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you? 
Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. 

Close quote

[Karl Kinaski]

To illustrate the thread 

 

[Karl Kinaski]

[Karl Kinaski]

IMO it doesn't matter, if Ruby was sitting in that green car, or hiding behind it: he nerver told anybody, that he reached the crime scene from the parking area climbing over the rail ... 

[David Von Pein]

If Ruby had really come in through the side door, instead of the ramp, there would have been no good reason under the sun for him to LIE about it.

And, of course, you have to bring Postal Inspector Harry Holmes into the "conspiracy" plot too. Because if it weren't for Holmes extending the interrogation of Oswald by several minutes on Sunday morning, then Ruby would have never had the chance to plug Oswald at 11:21.

But I always like how CTers add in the extra element of "signalling" to Ruby across the street. This part of their conspiracy fantasy allows them to totally ignore all of the timing issues (e.g., the Carlin phone call, the 11:17 timestamp at Western Union, and the fact that the public was told on Saturday night that Oswald would be moved at 10 AM on Sunday), which are timing issues that indicate one thing to a reasonable person:

Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald on the spur of the moment and could not have been part of some pre-planned conspiracy to rub out Mr. Oswald.

Edited March 26, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Karl Kinaski]

 

By "side door", I guess you mean the east- entrance to the parking area of the basement ... there was a service elevator nearby too with two openings: to the basement and to the alley. A Officer stationed there, by the name of Brock, to guard the elevator and stairs was never asked by anybody about his observations.  He disappeared from history. Fact is: Ruby reached his target via the parking area, climbing over the rail ... I think here we have the last part of his route from the Western Union Office,westwards  across Main street, south to the alley and the stairs/elevator leading to the basement, using that stairs/or the elevator, unopposed, crossing the basement, hiding behind/sitting in a green car for a short time, getting out of it, climbing over the rail and mingling with reporters just in time to silence Oswald ... 

[Karl Kinaski]

@DVP  I knew of a time, when this forum was filled with a lot of hard boiled Lone Nutters like you. Now you are a kind of LAST MAN STANDING ---  hats off!! 

[David Von Pein]

8 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

@DVP  I knew of a time, when this forum was filled with a lot of hard boiled Lone Nutters like you. Now you are a kind of LAST MAN STANDING ---  hats off!!