Help in correlating timing to z-frames

[Miles Scull]

If this IS Hudson, and there is strong reason to doubt that it is, then Hudson is standing upright in this frame. Hudson has 4 seconds to fall to the ground & position himself so that he hears the third shot.

One reporter described the noise level just from the screams alone to sound like 25 choirs all going off at once and out of key. Hudson may not have gotten his recollection down to the precise film frame...

Bill Miller

25 choirs?

Is it really BM's position that Hudson was rendered non compos mentis by the 25 choirs?

Well, OK, but that means that Hudson's testimony does not come in.

This passage shows contradictions & inconsistencies:

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER - You were standing down here where we put the "X"?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there isn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a renactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. HUDSON - He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. LIEBELER - Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. HUDSON - Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. LIEBELER - If you don't think the Presidentgot hit by the first shot and yoy say he got hit in the head with the second shot -

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

So, Yarborough saw Hudson, not Arnie, take a dive. So, Arnie (Gordon Arnold) was not there after all.

BM received an award for finding Hudson in the bushes (Z-413). BUT, Is it Hudson? Hudson would have knocked himself out doing a 2 second nose dive.

If you cannot rely on Hudson's testimony, then the photographic evidence is the only game in town.

That being the case, then, Hudson must have gone to ground AFTER the limo passed through the underpass.

Was someone still shooting? And hit the curb in front of James Teague, then?

Edit: spelling

Edited April 23, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Lee Forman]

What a narrow sighted thing to say! (sigh~) Hudson goes out of view as Zapruder pans with the limo. You come up with these silly ideas based on trying to pick pepper out of flea dung in my opinion. How much thought have you given to the fact that Hudson was trying his best to recollect something from a moment of complete and utter shock and obvious distress. Let us say that Hudson was starting the process of moving towards getting down as the limo was passing through the underpass ... he recalled hearing another shot, which may or may not have been an actual gunshot. One reporter described the noise level just from the screams alone to sound like 25 choirs all going off at once and out of key. Hudson may not have gotten his recollection down to the precise film frame so to suit someone of your credentials, but I bet he was more accurate than anything you have come up with by this nonsense.

Bill Miller

Hey Bill.

In looking at the last Nix frames that capture the man in the red shirt - whom I will continue to maintain was Hudson's 'Young Man' - it appears that he may be heading for cover. I had done a whole bunch of rips - but I don't know where I put them - will have another look. So it is possible that young man goes prone directly after Nix pans off of him - Hudson stands there practically immobile, and young man tells him to lay down - after he is seen in the z-frames - however - it still sounds like logic would dictate a final shot after this - if Hudson is accurate. I don't know that I would buy crowd noises though - but you'd be right on about Hudson and I guess I would owe you a beer for doubting it. I did take another look at the timing - z to Nix - I wasn't able to get a good fix for something in the 407 type range - since the red shirt man was no longer present for many frames.

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact. I know we've been through this before - Moorman polaroid was broadcast - any idea where one might have a look-see at a high quality version of the broadcasted image?

- lee

[Miles Scull]

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact.

- lee

Lee,

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Does this sound like Hudson went to ground in 2 or 3 seconds?

[Bill Miller]

Hey Bill.

In looking at the last Nix frames that capture the man in the red shirt - whom I will continue to maintain was Hudson's 'Young Man' - it appears that he may be heading for cover. I had done a whole bunch of rips - but I don't know where I put them - will have another look. So it is possible that young man goes prone directly after Nix pans off of him - Hudson stands there practically immobile, and young man tells him to lay down - after he is seen in the z-frames - however - it still sounds like logic would dictate a final shot after this - if Hudson is accurate.

Well - the young man that Hudson spoke about sitting and talking with him and then stood up with him ... is not the man in the red shirt. Groden told me the name of the man in the red shirt, but I don't recall it off-hand. I think that Hudson's eye was trained on the car and didn't notice the man who was standing next to him had bolted while the other guy moved up the steps.

The red box is nothing ... good light prints of Moorman's photo and Muchmore's film tell me that.

I don't know that I would buy crowd noises though - but you'd be right on about Hudson and I guess I would owe you a beer for doubting it. I did take another look at the timing - z to Nix - I wasn't able to get a good fix for something in the 407 type range - since the red shirt man was no longer present for many frames.

The red shirted man is seen in the Bond pics and Towner 3 photo as he sits on the ground next to Hudson. One photo shows him back on his feet.

The crowd noise reference comes from a documentary that came with the Oliver Stone Movie 'JFK". The interview with that reporter has him describing the volume of the screams that were going on all around him when the shots were being fired. I only suggested contemplating the confusion against the milliseconds being attributed to Hudson's recall during those brief moments.

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact. I know we've been through this before - Moorman polaroid was broadcast - any idea where one might have a look-see at a high quality version of the broadcasted image?

I would check with Gary Mack for references. The Muchmore frames show this location at the time of Moorman's photo ... possibly a simple cross-reference will help.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

So, Yarborough saw Hudson, not Arnie, take a dive. So, Arnie (Gordon Arnold) was not there after all.

So what now ... did you give up just making up stuff so to mislead the reader, so now you merely twist the facts by selective interpretations. You have gone from Yarborough saying that DURING THE SHOOTING that he seen a man dive to the wall like an old time flying tackle to him meaning Hudson standing on the steps and merely getting down on the ground near the landing half way down to the street AFTER THE SHOOTING. This has all the ear-marks of that stupid idea that Bowers was talking about the red shirted man on the steps when he testified to Mr. Ball. Not interested in feeding trolls at this time ... too time consuming and such a waste of thread space.

Would any rational thinker believe that Yarborough who spoke to both Golz and then Turner about the man up on the knoll being one of the three men on the steps .. give others a little credibility when it comes to not being totally stupid. Golz specifically referenced how researchers had gone over the assassination images for years looking for signs of another man above the knoll and how through Yarborough there was finally some insight on what happened beyond the wall. The same happened with Turner. But go on ahead and keep hoping to find someone ignorant enough to fall for your nonsense ... they say that there is a fool born every minute.

Bill Miller

Edited April 23, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

So, Yarborough saw Hudson, not Arnie, take a dive. So, Arnie (Gordon Arnold) was not there after all.

So what now ... did you give up just making up stuff so to mislead the reader, so now you merely twist the facts by selective interpretations. You have gone from Yarborough saying that DURING THE SHOOTING that he seen a man dive to the wall like an old time flying tackle to him meaning Hudson standing on the steps and merely getting down on the ground near the landing half way down to the street AFTER THE SHOOTING. This has all the ear-marks of that stupid idea that Bowers was talking about the red shirted man on the steps when he testified to Mr. Ball. Not interested in feeding trolls at this time ... too time consuming and such a waste of thread space.

Would any rational thinker believe that Yarborough who spoke to both Golz and then Turner about the man up on the knoll being one of the three men on the steps .. give others a little credibility when it comes to not being totally stupid. Golz specifically referenced how researchers had gone over the assassination images for years looking for signs of another man above the knoll and how through Yarborough there was finally some insight on what happened beyond the wall. The same happened with Turner. But go on ahead and keep hoping to find someone ignorant enough to fall for your nonsense ... they say that there is a fool born every minute.

Bill Miller

You have gone from Yarborough saying that DURING THE SHOOTING that he seen a man dive to the wall like an old time flying tackle to him meaning Hudson standing on the steps and merely getting down on the ground near the landing half way down to the street AFTER THE SHOOTING. - MILLER

This is not correct & is a misstatement of the facts. Have you read Hudson's testimony?

Hudson's testimony is found in this thread in post # 46, which is 2 posts above your post which I quote here.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson clearly states that he moved to the ground DURING THE SHOOTING & that he was on the ground when he heard the 3rd shot.

Hudson is not seen in Z-413, because if the 3rd shot occurred before the limo entered the triple underpass (i.e. before the limo exited Dealey plaza), then Hudson had to perform an impossible acrobatic stunt.

Hudson would have had to have dropped to the ground in 2 seconds which would have required a free-fall dive. Then Hudson would have had to have taken 1 additional second to rest his arm on the ground to then hear the 3rd shot.

Therefore, this is NOT Hudson (Z-413):

The alleged Hudson object is not dropping in Z-414 either.

BTW, you have yet to produce Golz's statements as you have been asked to do. Nor have you produced quotations or citations of Golz.

What you report re: Golz without verification is, then, only dubious hearsay.

[Bill Miller]

This is not correct & is a misstatement of the facts. Have you read Hudson's testimony?

The facts pertaining to the garbage you post are a matter of record and can be reviewed by anyone.

Hudson clearly states that he moved to the ground DURING THE SHOOTING & that he was on the ground when he heard the 3rd shot.

Obviously we are talking about two different shots. Most people who reference the assassination have called the head shot the third shot ... I bet you have also done the same. It has been posted many times that depending on where the witness was standing and what he or she believed to be a shot may or may not have been a shot at all, while other shots may not have registered with some witnesses that were shots. Like I said before ... you are trolling and nothing more. Hudson is still seen standing after the head shot, which the majority of witnesses claimed to be the THIRD shot. This is just another 'Bowers saw plaid from 300 feet way' nonsense IMO.

Hudson is not seen in Z-413, because if the 3rd shot occurred before the limo entered the triple underpass (i.e. before the limo exited Dealey plaza), then Hudson had to perform an impossible acrobatic stunt.

Your confusion goes hand in hand with not being able to consider the more logical possibilities.

Hudson would have had to have dropped to the ground in 2 seconds which would have required a free-fall dive. Then Hudson would have had to have taken 1 additional second to rest his arm on the ground to then hear the 3rd shot.

You are trying to make something out of nothing. I asked this once before and you seemingly avoided it ... Is it not possible for Hudson to get down on the ground in the same time frame it took Jackie to rise out of her seat ... is not what's good for the goose, also good for the gander .... seems fair to me. Is it also not possible that Hudson may very well have recalled him going down towards the ground, so he referenced it the way he did. We are talking about minute seconds being plotted against someone's ability to recall in a state of sudden shock and stress. Jackie Kennedy didn't even remember going out on the trunk, so whats next ... some thread talking about how Jackie's recollection doesn't match the assassination films so something must be afoul. What a waste of thread space IMO.

BTW, you have yet to produce Golz's statements as you have been asked to do. Nor have you produced quotations or citations of Golz.

I didn't tape the conversation that I had with Earl ... maybe Gary Mack taped his conversations with Earl and can send them to such a precise and factual researcher like yourself. Better yet, Earl is still alive, so you contact him and cite what he told you. Or you can contact the University of Houston, which I think is where Earl said that he was leaving his notes to. Gary Mack may even be able to help by verifying where Earls notes went. Certainly Earl can tell you where they are ... that is IF you really want to know.

What you report re: Golz without verification is, then, only dubious hearsay.

I personally spoke to Earl a few times, thus what I report that he told me based on his forst hand knowledge came directly from Earl and would not be hearsay. What Earl told me that Yarborough told him is considered hearsay. It seems this flawed defense of yours came up once before when it was considered that my, Groden, or Gary Mack saying that anyone standing on the steps could not be seen from Bowers location inside the tower. Again ... what a waste of thread space.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

This is not correct & is a misstatement of the facts. Have you read Hudson's testimony?

Obviously we are talking about two different shots. Most people who reference the assassination have called the head shot the third shot ... I bet you have also done the same. It has been posted many times that depending on where the witness was standing and what he or she believed to be a shot may or may not have been a shot at all, while other shots may not have registered with some witnesses that were shots. Like I said before ... you are trolling and nothing more. Hudson is still seen standing after the head shot, which the majority of witnesses claimed to be the THIRD shot. This is just another 'Bowers saw plaid from 300 feet way' nonsense IMO.

Obviously we are talking about two different shots.

That is not correct. This is NOT obvious to me.

Most people who reference the assassination have called the head shot the third shot ...

Again, that is not correct or accurate. What is your authority or citation for this statement? You offer none. As far as I know the best & most reliable witnesses & commentators believe that there were 4 shots fired (at least!). Until you can provide supporting & verifying evidence for your statements, then they stand as baseless.

I bet you have also done the same.

You lose this bet. I have never said or called the headshot the third shot. You are wrong.

It has been posted many times that depending on where the witness was standing and what he or she believed to be a shot may or may not have been a shot at all,

That is correct. I have said this many, many many times. Have you?

while other shots may not have registered with some witnesses that were shots.

Of course, this is common knowledge & so obvious as to be hardly worth mentioning. Sort of like saying, as you did, that going up Elm means going up.

Like I said before ... you are trolling and nothing more.

You wish. Is that your only argument? Since I'm trolling, Hudson did not fall down in 2 seconds?

Hudson is still seen standing after the head shot, which the majority of witnesses claimed to be the THIRD shot.

No. Cite your authority, please. You are not your own authority. Saying something without verification is invalid.

This is just another 'Bowers saw plaid from 300 feet way' nonsense IMO.

True! You have expressed opinion only, and a wrong one at that.

Either Hudson is not in Z-413 or Hudson did not hear a third shot when he was on the ground & when the limo was still in Dealey Plaza.

Cannot be both.

You say Hudson is in Z-413 & you are willing to assert that Hudson's testimony was false in order to maintain your contention that Hudson is in Z-413.

Most people will side with Hudson & believe him. He is not in Z-413.

Edit: spelling

Edited April 24, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Lee Forman]

Well - the young man that Hudson spoke about sitting and talking with him and then stood up with him ... is not the man in the red shirt. Groden told me the name of the man in the red shirt, but I don't recall it off-hand. I think that Hudson's eye was trained on the car and didn't notice the man who was standing next to him had bolted while the other guy moved up the steps.

That's a leap. I don't buy it. Remember - I don't believe this alleged third individual is present in the Willis photo - aside from the very likely possibility of being BDM. That is my opinion and impression.

The red box is nothing ... good light prints of Moorman's photo and Muchmore's film tell me that.

That small study I posted is made up of early copies of the Moorman - the Times Herald, Jack White's copy, etc. No worries - they were good enough for me.

The red shirted man is seen in the Bond pics and Towner 3 photo as he sits on the ground next to Hudson. One photo shows him back on his feet.

Of course I know that. I have high res stuff of just about anything that deals with the stairs.

The crowd noise reference comes from a documentary that came with the Oliver Stone Movie 'JFK". The interview with that reporter has him describing the volume of the screams that were going on all around him when the shots were being fired. I only suggested contemplating the confusion against the milliseconds being attributed to Hudson's recall during those brief moments.

Interesting - but I don't see it being logical.

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact. I know we've been through this before - Moorman polaroid was broadcast - any idea where one might have a look-see at a high quality version of the broadcasted image?

I would check with Gary Mack for references. The Muchmore frames show this location at the time of Moorman's photo ... possibly a simple cross-reference will help.

Bill

Don't waste your time - but thank you. I already know the answer.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

That's a leap. I don't buy it. Remember - I don't believe this alleged third individual is present in the Willis photo - aside from the very likely possibility of being BDM. That is my opinion and impression.

Please explain how you reached that conclusion .. both men on the steps with Hudson is seen in the Willis photo. It is Hudson who is mostly hidden by the man standing east and on the same step with him.

That small study I posted is made up of early copies of the Moorman - the Times Herald, Jack White's copy, etc. No worries - they were good enough for me.

Lee ... no problem on my end. By the way, did you look at the Muchmore film to check the area in question or are you satisfied that your posted dark poor quality prints are good enough? I only ask because Jack has had some of the best prints in his possession and even he has never made the claim of seeing what you are talking about. The Moorman print you used is not one of the better prints ... you might want to examine some other prints that are found in Groden's book "The Killing of a President".

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact.

What I find odd about the remark above is that regardless if you have seen the NBC show 'As it Happens" which shows Moorman's photo as it was still in her possession only 35 minutes after the shooting ... all three men are on the steps. You may not be able to ID them as to who they are, but seeing them standing there is quite obvious. How you figure that one of them was added after the fact, presumably by Moorman in the alteration lab hidden inside the lining of her coat, will remain a mystery to me.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

will remain a mystery to me.[/b]

Lee,

Can you place the limo in the Nix frame on Elm?

Would the sign be in Z frames at this Nix frame time?

I appreciate any input. (I am finding anomalies with Hudson here.)

[David G. Healy]

That's a leap. I don't buy it. Remember - I don't believe this alleged third individual is present in the Willis photo - aside from the very likely possibility of being BDM. That is my opinion and impression.

Please explain how you reached that conclusion .. both men on the steps with Hudson is seen in the Willis photo. It is Hudson who is mostly hidden by the man standing east and on the same step with him.

That small study I posted is made up of early copies of the Moorman - the Times Herald, Jack White's copy, etc. No worries - they were good enough for me.

Lee ... no problem on my end. By the way, did you look at the Muchmore film to check the area in question or are you satisfied that your posted dark poor quality prints are good enough? I only ask because Jack has had some of the best prints in his possession and even he has never made the claim of seeing what you are talking about. The Moorman print you used is not one of the better prints ... you might want to examine some other prints that are found in Groden's book "The Killing of a President".

All this having been said - nothing will shake me on the guy squatting on the stairs and the probability of the third man having been added after-the-fact.

What I find odd about the remark above is that regardless if you have seen the NBC show 'As it Happens" which shows Moorman's photo as it was still in her possession only 35 minutes after the shooting ... all three men are on the steps. You may not be able to ID them as to who they are, but seeing them standing there is quite obvious. How you figure that one of them was added after the fact, presumably by Moorman in the alteration lab hidden inside the lining of her coat, will remain a mystery to me.

ahh, ya can't positively I.D. the person on the pedestal in the Moorman 5 as Zapruder, either... Moorman's alteration lab (inside her coat) was working overtime, eh?

[Bill Miller]

BM) Obviously we are talking about two different shots.

MS) That is not correct. This is NOT obvious to me.

It also wasn't obvious to you that Holland had not ran off the underpass within the first few moments following the assassination ... it was not obvious to you that there was no line of sight from Bowers tower to the men standing on the steps ... and the list goes on, so tell me something that I don't know concerning things that are not obvious to you.

BM) Most people who reference the assassination have called the head shot the third shot ...

MS) Again, that is not correct or accurate. What is your authority or citation for this statement? You offer none. As far as I know the best & most reliable witnesses & commentators believe that there were 4 shots fired (at least!). Until you can provide supporting & verifying evidence for your statements, then they stand as baseless.

There were 100s of witnesses in the Plaza during the shooting. Let's reverse the table here .... you show this forum that more people claimed that there were more than three shots heard because "Until you can provide supporting & verifying evidence for your statements, then they stand as baseless".

BM) It has been posted many times that depending on where the witness was standing and what he or she believed to be a shot may or may not have been a shot at all,

MS) That is correct. I have said this many, many many times. Have you?

I not only have posted it in the very threads that you trolled, but I also cited the test firings during the making of the movie "JFK" where this was observed. Can you tell me how you drew your conclusion???

BM) while other shots may not have registered with some witnesses that were shots.

MS) Of course, this is common knowledge & so obvious as to be hardly worth mentioning. Sort of like saying, as you did, that going up Elm means going up.

BM) Like I said before ... you are trolling and nothing more.

MS) You wish. Is that your only argument? Since I'm trolling, Hudson did not fall down in 2 seconds?

No one has said he did ... not even Hudson. He said that he was near the ground when he heard another shot.

BM) Hudson is still seen standing after the head shot, which the majority of witnesses claimed to be the THIRD shot.

MS) No. Cite your authority, please. You are not your own authority. Saying something without verification is invalid.

The old double standard - hey? I think that there are stats found from the statements made by eye witnesses in Mark Lane's book "Rush to Judgment" that apply here. I anxiously await for you to site your source!

Either Hudson is not in Z-413 or Hudson did not hear a third shot when he was on the ground & when the limo was still in Dealey Plaza.

Cannot be both.

I guess to a short sighted mind ... I can understand your thinking what you do. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z416.jpg If you can find Hudson's head in Z415 or afterwards, then please point it out to everyone ... did it fall off his shoulders possibly???

You say Hudson is in Z-413 & you are willing to assert that Hudson's testimony was false in order to maintain your contention that Hudson is in Z-413.

Most people will side with Hudson & believe him. He is not in Z-413.[/b]

What I maintain is that you have done a poor job of breaking down and understanding what Hudson has said. That you have also and purposely in my opinion not considered the circumstances of how one recalls events in moments of utter shock and stress. This doesn't mean that I don't believe Hudson ... I do. I just don't try and go beyond Occams Razor to invent pointless scenarios.

Oc·cam's razor n.

A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly.

I don't see Hudson's head after Z414, thus I assume that he is starting to get down. Here is what he said about hearing a shot in relation to him getting down on the ground, "and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind."

If one wants to be technical ... the shadow of the underpass does not fall directly below it. From Z414 to the end of the film and while the car is inside the underpass is approximately 4 seconds. Go back and see how far Jackie moved in 4 seconds from the time she started rising up to climb out onto the trunk.

Bill Miller

Edited April 25, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

ahh, ya can't positively I.D. the person on the pedestal in the Moorman 5 as Zapruder, either... Moorman's alteration lab (inside her coat) was working overtime, eh?

You are right, David ... just as you cannot say it is not them, unlike Jack who says no one was standing there and that they were added to her photo, presumably in that same lab that Mary had inside her coat lining. I can however ID Sitzman in Trask's book (National Nightmare) as she is seen standing next to the pedestal talking to a reporter and while wearing the same clothing as the woman on the pedestal. I can also recognize Zapruder inside the shelter in the same book and wearing the same clothing as the man on the pedestal ... thanks again to Trask. So what's next ... you make the silly claim that those people in the images were not finger-printed so to prove it was really Sitzman or Zapruder??? It is this kind of nonsense is why the foolishness found in the 'Hoax' book never got anywhere.

So is there anything that you can add that would give reason for me to think that the statement you made below is not true???

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...c=5959&st=0

Post #8

David Healy: Of course there's NO proof of film alteration, something I've stated for years

Edited April 25, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

David Healy: Of course there's NO proof of film alteration, something I've stated for years[/b]

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z416.jpg If you can find Hudson's head in Z415 or afterwards, then please point it out to everyone ... did it fall off his shoulders possibly??? - MILLER

Ouch! Someone just sustained a self-inflicted foot injury.

Of course Hudson's head does not completely disappear in 1/18th of a second between Z-414 & Z-415.

But since it does, this proves that the object is NOT Hudson.

Notice how the free falling man in Z-346 & Z-347 only falls 2 inches.