Zfilm Revisited

[Bill Miller]

There is overwhelming evidence that there were two distinct individuals, one known as Harvey Oswald & the other known as Lee Oswald.

But I have never heard of Hatman Oswald.

Are you saying that you went to the picket fence to test a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in order to see if Oswald could have been the grassy knoll sniper?

The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle has only a few inches of barrel which to put between the fence slats:

This means that to track the limo Hatman Oswald would have had to have shunted the rifle butt from right to left by taking a series of small sideways shuffle steps from right to left, like a crab.

This would completely destroy his aim & also probably the balance of his mind.

It is certainly easy to see how you make so many stupid mistakes in the conclusions you claim to have reached. The alike Oswald rifle was one that we had in the plaza for demonstration. To insinuate that we were saying that Oswald was Hat Man or anything else like you just posted above has changed my opinion of your motive back to you just being a trolling kook.

What I tested was some various ways to have fired a shot from that location with a minimal amount of detection from the street below. I found (as I have previously stated several times over) that one could wait for the car to enter into a target zone and one could pull the trigger when the President passed in front of the gun sights. This isn't a matter of having a rabbit jump at your feet and you need to take a sudden wild swing with the stock to track the prey, but rather a basically still shot with a car moving at a walking pace and coming towards the assassin. I think it might possibly help if the next time you are in the Plaza that you spend some time testing these things for yourself .... that is if you are really interested in doing so.

All is not well.

Yes, possibly a healthier diet (of information) may help!

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

There is overwhelming evidence that there were two distinct individuals, one known as Harvey Oswald & the other known as Lee Oswald.

But I have never heard of Hatman Oswald.

Are you saying that you went to the picket fence to test a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in order to see if Oswald could have been the grassy knoll sniper?

The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle has only a few inches of barrel which to put between the fence slats:

This means that to track the limo Hatman Oswald would have had to have shunted the rifle butt from right to left by taking a series of small sideways shuffle steps from right to left, like a crab.

This would completely destroy his aim & also probably the balance of his mind.

"I found (as I have previously stated several times over) that one could wait for the car to enter into a target zone and one could pull the trigger when the President passed in front of the gun sights... a basically still shot with a car moving at a walking pace and coming towards the assassin." -- Bill Miller

Walking pace? Not so.

Try this:

OK.

You are taking a still shot, to quote your words. This means that your rifle will not move. The bullet shoots to a single point.

Therefore, the target must move to that exact point.

You are poised, holding & aiming the rifle to the single point.

If you move the rifle as it rests in the notch, then aim is lost.

You cannot see the approaching limo, you are aiming at the point.

Question:

How do you know in advance of the moment that the target is going to go to the single point at which you are aiming?

Answer:

You don't.

Resting the rifle barrel in a notch between the slats of the picket fence is the worst possible sniping method, save shooting through the wood of the fence.

This is worse than the magic bullet theory.

[Bill Miller]

Walking pace? Not so.

At the time that the fatal shot had been fired ... the limo had slowed to a near stop. Not from Zapruder's perpendicular view to the street, but rather from the right FRONT ... the target would appear to be barely be moving at the moment of the kill shot. My exact words were "a basically still shot".

You are taking a still shot, to quote your words. This means that your rifle will not move. The bullet shoots to a single point.

Miles, you are the last one to tell me what I mean. I find it hard to believe that you are as unintelligent as you are trying to appear. If it is true that you are that unintelligent as to misinterpret what seems to be everything that I write, then wasting more time explaining things to you is probably not going to help. In other words, I will make my point - those who can understand it - will ... and those that don't - won't!

Therefore, the target must move to that exact point.

You are poised, holding & aiming the rifle to the single point.

If you move the rifle as it rests in the notch, then aim is lost.

That exact spot??? JFK is traveling on the north side of the middle lane ... how tough would you think it is to guess where he is going to cross any given path as he rides toward your position.

The 'aim is lost' remark makes no sense to me. What aim is lost ... do you think the assassin was aiming for the top two inches of JFK's head??? Give me a break!!! Not only would it take only slight movement to adjust a shot, but had the shot from the front been a couple of inches higher ... the President may have not been hit at all. So if we wish to dance on your latter 'the shot would be lost' nonsense, then I can say that because the rifle had slipped in the notch, then the bullet almost missed the President's head.

No one knows how the shot was fired, but the things you are saying as if to promote that such a shot could not have been taken is just pure speculation without any real data to support it. Until after you have visited the Plaza again to test this for yourself, your opinion has little value to me personally when compared to my own experience at this.

How do you know in advance of the moment that the target is going to go to the single point at which you are aiming?

Answer:

You don't.

You have said in the past that these were trained assassins. You have said that trained assassin snipers would not use the fence for a resting spot to take aim. So now you want to ask how someone like a trained assassin would know what area on the street to be looking for JFK to pass through as his car rides down the center lane ... you must be joking! Your desire to xxxxx has seemingly caused you to forget your own previous position and this is one example of it.

Bill Miller

Edited May 22, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

This is worse than the magic bullet theory.

Bill

Yes Miles 100% correct..It's the magic BILLet theory

Duncan

Actually, all I have done was to say that it was a possibility ... I think the SBT went further than that, but seeing how you probably have not the time to study either ... such responses from you should be expected.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

This is worse than the magic bullet theory.

Bill

Yes Miles 100% correct..It's the magic BILLet theory

Duncan

Actually, all I have done was to say that it was a possibility ...

Bill

Actually, you said:

QUOTE

(Bill Miller @ Mar 16 2007, 04:37 PM)

I would have then rested my gun barrel between the fence slats so to get a steady shot off. - MILLER

QUOTE

(Bill Miller @ May 19 2008, 07:15 PM)

a slight swing of the rifle by an inch between the slats of the fence can track as much as probably 15 to 20 feet at the street. - MILLER

QUOTE

(Bill Miller @ May 21 2008, 07:09 PM)

"I found (as I have previously stated several times over) that one could wait for the car to enter into a target zone and one could pull the trigger when the President passed in front of the gun sights... a basically still shot with a car moving at a walking pace and coming towards the assassin." -- Bill Miller

Duncan

BM described what he would do. That's fair. He is not describing what a trained & experienced sniper would do.

Here's a sniper's point of view. Notice that the fence blocks his view of the approaching limo. But he's not looking anyway because he is aiming at the target zone!

BM says that the sniper fixes his rifle at a "target zone" (BM quote) & waits aiming at that zone without seeing or tracking the limo.

Here's the zone (red oval):

The time window of opportunity is extremely narrow. The sniper has no time to fix his target, unless the target goes directly to the point at which the sniper has been aiming steadily & unmoving.

If the target does not go to that exact point, then the sniper must adjust & re-aim, i.e. he must move the barrel which is resting in the notch. If he does so, then two things will happen: 1) the barrel will drop & destabilize & 2) the target will pass out of the time window of opportunity before the sniper can adequately adjust.

During the time before the shot is taken BM's sniper does NOT know where & when the target will appear. When he sees the front of the limo BM's sniper can begin guessing, but if he is off a fraction BM's sniper misses or delivers a non-lethal hit.

This dog never ever began to hunt.

A nonsense.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

BM described what he would do. That's fair. He is not describing what a trained & experienced sniper would do.

The same can be said for you, as well Miles. In fact, unless these assassins were shooting for JFK's adams apple - Connally's armpit - the curb stone near James Tague - the asphalt near the limo - or the top two inches of JFK's skull ... one might question whether or not these men lived up to the 'Miles Skull level of trained sniper ... what do you think about that???

Here's a sniper's point of view. Notice that the fence blocks his view of the approaching limo. But he's not looking anyway because he is aiming at the target zone!

A sniper's point of view ... the only think you appear to have killed is the purpose of this forum being educational.

BM says that the sniper fixes his rifle at a "target zone" (BM quote) & waits aiming at that zone without seeing or tracking the limo.

This is not what I said at all. A trained assassin ... especially one familiar with the Plaza would know within a small degree of error just where the target would be passing through. To pretend that someone waiting for the President to pass through this area could not do so because they could not see the car until it was directly in front of the rifle sights is a joke being trolled into this thread.

If the target does not go to that exact point, then the sniper must adjust & re-aim, i.e. he must move the barrel which is resting in the notch. If he does so, then two things will happen: 1) the barrel will drop & destabilize & 2) the target will pass out of the time window of opportunity before the sniper can adequately adjust.

The barrel wouldn't drop until one swung the gun stock perpendicular enough to the fence slat for it to fall ... if it fell at all. I could not help but notice that some slats have no gap between the vertical boards. But my point, which I have made several times now, is that the weapon would not need to be swung but a fraction of an inch to cover a large distance at the street. I find anyone constantly misstating or missing this point to be suspect.

During the time before the shot is taken BM's sniper does NOT know where & when the target will appear. When he sees the front of the limo BM's sniper can begin guessing, but if he is off a fraction BM's sniper misses or delivers a non-lethal hit.

How do you justify the comments above when in Moorman's photograph there is nothing between the Hat Man location and the limo in Moorman's photo? You give these people the title of 'trained assassins' and yet you write about thing they cannot do that even a layman could accomplish. I personally think that someone could be looking at the President right up to the point of JFK entering his field of firing view and then look down the sights to pick up his target ... I have shot many of game by doing this. But let us assume that this 'trained assassin' is totally inept and hasn't ever fired a gun before ... let me introduce to your assassin a new word "Peripheral" as in .........

Periphreal vision: Side vision. The ability to see objects and movement outside of the direct line of vision.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Periphreal vision: Side vision. The ability to see objects and movement outside of the direct line of vision.

Bill Miller

Peripheral Vision ???

Here it is :

Better call the OH-OH squad.

The picket fence blocks Peripheral Vision!

[Chris Davidson]

Since I couldn't find my animation topic, but this is part of the Zfilm revisited, here's another splendid display by the animator's.

Little Linda Willis ran so quickly to catch the limo, she um um um.

Well, you can decide what happens to her body. (Red Arrow)

It's a shame anyone believes this film is unaltered.

chris

P.S.

Another sign of cell frame animation would be the (straight leg movement) sync of the 2 women in front of Linda Willis.

[Miles Scull]

It's a shame anyone believes this film is unaltered.

Anyone behind and/or in front of the limo had virtually a motionless target to hit IMO.

This post has been edited by Bill Miller: Mar 29 2007, 09:02 AM

QUOTE

(Bill Miller @ Mar 16 2007, 04:37 PM)

I would have then rested my gun barrel between the fence slats so to get a steady shot off. Then all I would need to do is pull my gun back as I started to turn away from the scene which is what Ed Hoffman claims to have witnessed. - MILLER

Reply:

Bill, a sniper or a hunter never rests his barrel on anything if his target is moving. (If the target is stationary or has very little movement, then such supporting of the barrel becomes a possibility.) Placing the barrel between the fence slats guarantees a miss. Why? Because a stationary rifle limits the field of fire to a single point. Also, the slats would obscure sight & sighting of the approaching target making anticipation & timing virtually impossible. The option would be that the shooter would have to shuttle his body from right to left to swing the rifle in a rotation on the fulcrum point of the fence. Again never done.

Miles

Then this exchange occurred:

QUOTE

The "resting the barrel theory" is a guess & a bad one. The experienced sniper, cautiously & on fundamental operating procedure grounds, holding his rifle free from contact with any limiting obstructions is the reality. Remember, the sniper does not know how the car & the target within the car will move. He must give himself optimum chances to succeed. The sniper is not an amateur. -- Scull

Miller says: "I disagree... Anyone behind and/or in front of the limo had virtually a motionless target to hit IMO."

Again, to repeat, you miss the point. The point is simple. The movement of the limo as it actually did occur is irrelevant & immaterial to the question of how a sniper at hatman's locus would have handled his rifle. To repeat, the sniper did not know & could not have known in advance how the limo would move & how the target within the limo would move. Therefore, the sniper allows for & prepares for any & every possibility of movement. Resting the rifle barrel on anything (the fence) is a nonsense. More dogs not hunting. -- Scull

This post has been edited by Miles Scull: Mar 31 2007, 02:05 AM

QUOTE(Bill Miller @ May 21 2008, 07:09 PM)

QUOTE

There is overwhelming evidence that there were two distinct individuals, one known as Harvey Oswald & the other known as Lee Oswald.

But I have never heard of Hatman Oswald.

Are you saying that you went to the picket fence to test a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in order to see if Oswald could have been the grassy knoll sniper?

The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle has only a few inches of barrel which to put between the fence slats:

This means that to track the limo Hatman Oswald would have had to have shunted the rifle butt from right to left by taking a series of small sideways shuffle steps from right to left, like a crab.

This would completely destroy his aim & also probably the balance of his mind.

"I found (as I have previously stated several times over) that one could wait for the car to enter into a target zone and one could pull the trigger when the President passed in front of the gun sights... a basically still shot with a car moving at a walking pace and coming towards the assassin." -- Bill Miller

Walking pace? Not so.

Try this:

At the time that the fatal shot had been fired ... the limo had slowed to a near stop. Not from Zapruder's perpendicular view to the street, but rather from the right FRONT ... the target would appear to be barely be moving at the moment of the kill shot.

May 22 2008, 07:07 PM - MILLER

BM's idea that the limo was at a near stop & barely moving from Hatman's view point is nonsense & is refuted by this:

This means that BM's sniper, resting his rifle barrel between the picket fence slats, aiming at an extremely narrow target zone, will be forced to move his rifle & thusly destroy his aim stability.

He will miss his target. Ooopps.

If he does not move his rifle, then he has correctly guessed that the target will magically move to his single point of aim.

Nonsense.

[Chris Davidson]

Since I couldn't find my animation topic, but this is part of the Zfilm revisited, here's another splendid display by the animator's.

Little Linda Willis ran so quickly to catch the limo, she um um um.

Well, you can decide what happens to her body. (Red Arrow)

It's a shame anyone believes this film is unaltered.

chris

P.S.

Another sign of cell frame animation would be the (straight leg movement) sync of the 2 women in front of Linda Willis.

And for those that are under the impression that Groden's uncut copy is unaltered, well Linda Willis has the same problem with body separation in that version also.

So it would appear that his is a copy from a version that had undergone alteration before he obtained it.

chris

[Jack White]

Since I couldn't find my animation topic, but this is part of the Zfilm revisited, here's another splendid display by the animator's.

Little Linda Willis ran so quickly to catch the limo, she um um um.

Well, you can decide what happens to her body. (Red Arrow)

It's a shame anyone believes this film is unaltered.

chris

P.S.

Another sign of cell frame animation would be the (straight leg movement) sync of the 2 women in front of Linda Willis.

Chris...these frames are notable because they do not show TINA TOWNER FILMING. Please do a

comparison with the Tina Towner film. Check the locations of the two motorcycles in relation to Zapruder,

and tell us which Z frames represent Tina frames. By finding line of sight between motorcycles and JFK in

Towner film and comparing Z and T, you will see that Tina HAS TO BE IN ZAPRUDER.

I have done this in the past, but I want to see your take on it.

Thanks.

Jack

[Miles Scull]

Mr. MORRISON - Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot, I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot , looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud upon the bumper of that station wagon.

Mr. STERN - When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?

Mr. HOLLAND - Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.

Mr. STERN - So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?

Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.

Mr. STERN - Or, that area?

Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when I walked back to the ear there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot.

Mr. STERN - And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND - I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN - In front of the cars---

Mr. HOLLAND - The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

Mr. STERN - And that was later you came behind the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.

Mr. STERN - This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked?

Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.

If a sniper shot from Holland's position, he stood between the picket fence & a parked car in the muddy area where his shoe impressions were seen by Holland & described by Holland as an area 2' by 3'.

But if this sniper places a rifle barrel between the slats, then he must sit on the car or stand on the car bumper, where Bowers easily sees him.

This awkward cramping & obstruction of movement is caused by the sniper resting the rifle barrel between the slats.

Therefore, he does not place his barrel between the slats because he seeks to optimize his chances of success rather than trying to minimize his chances.

The barrel resting between the slats is a recipe for failure & a nonsense.

The red arrow is Bowers view. Note cars abutting the fence.

So, by accumulation of nonsenses the "barrel between the slats theory" has become as big as the "magic bullet" nonsense.

A huge nonsense!

[Bill Miller]

If a sniper shot from Holland's position, he stood between the picket fence & a parked car in the muddy area where his shoe impressions were seen by Holland & described by Holland as an area 2' by 3'.

But if this sniper places a rifle barrel between the slats, then he must sit on the car or stand on the car bumper, where Bowers easily sees him.

LOL!!! Let me ask you if the footprints found in the 3' x 2' space ... were they made during the shooting or do you not know? And was there spaces between the parked cars so someone could go around one and walk up to the fence?? Now seeing that you cannot tell at what point the footprints were made or if the Hat Man is positioned between two cars ... it appears that your post fell under the weight of your own trolling.

Bill Miller

Edited May 25, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

If a sniper shot from Holland's position, he stood between the picket fence & a parked car in the muddy area where his shoe impressions were seen by Holland & described by Holland as an area 2' by 3' between the picket fence & the parked car.

But if this sniper places a rifle barrel between the slats, then he must sit on the car or stand on the car bumper, where Bowers easily sees him.

LOL!!! Let me ask you if the footprints found in the 3' x 2' space ... were they made during the shooting or do you not know? And was there spaces between the parked cars so someone could go around one and walk up to the fence?? Now seeing that you cannot tell at what point the footprints were made or if the Hat Man is positioned between two cars ... it appears that your post fell under the weight of your own trolling.

Bill Miller

LOL!!!

Correct! The barrel between the slats theory is laughable. Agreed.

Let me ask you if the footprints found in the 3' x 2' space ... were they made during the shooting or do you not know?

Mr. BALL - Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said. "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops stared getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.

Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.

Mr. BALL - Was it foggy?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.

It had rained earlier in the morning of Nov. 22. So, sometime during or after that rain shoe prints were imprinted in the 2' by 3' muddy area between the picket fence & the parked car. If the person or persons who made the shoe prints departed this area before the shooting, then they did not do the shooting & one of them, therefore, was not Hatman, in which case Hatman as seen in Moorman is not a human. The barrel between the slats theory becomes stuck in the mud & is seen as patent Nonsense.

And was there spaces between the parked cars so someone could go around one and walk up to the fence??

Yes, the person or persons who made the shoe prints in the mud were not getting out of & back into the trunk of the car. Neither had they jumped over the fence from its south side. If Hatman was standing out of the muddy area & was standing between the cars, then he was standing in a space even more cramped than if he were standing in the muddy area. If Hatman rests his rifle barrel between the slats he is forced into a cramped position in which his movement is blocked & obstructed, standing between the cars or standing in the muddy area. For that reason (and for all the accumulated many other reasons) he does NOT rest his barrel between the slats.

Now seeing that you cannot tell at what point the footprints were made or if the Hat Man is positioned between two cars ...

Are you ridiculing your own theory?

it appears that your post fell under the weight of your own trolling.

No, yours did.

Here's how it is done:

[Miles Scull]

If a sniper shot from Holland's position, he stood between the picket fence & a parked car in the muddy area where his shoe impressions were seen by Holland & described by Holland as an area 2' by 3'.

But if this sniper places a rifle barrel between the slats, then he must sit on the car or stand on the car bumper, where Bowers easily sees him.

LOL!!! Bill Miller

Addendum:

If Hatman stands between the parked cars, with barrel between fence slats, then he is exposing himself to Bowers' attention & to that of anyone else in the area. Nonsense # 23.