Zfilm Revisited

[Jack White]

Groden's pyracantha man appears only in one frame. If a real object, this

is not possible.

Jack

[Miles Scull]

Groden's pyracantha man appears only in one frame. If a real object, this

is not possible.

Jack

BM thought that Hudson in that frame after that frame dropped to the ground & heard a third shot.

BM thought that Hudson heard a motorcycle backfire & confusedly assumed that the backfire was a shot.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head, which jibes with a TSBD shot.

So, BM thought that a motorcycle was above Hudson's head. (An echo?)

Therefore, Groden's Pyracantha Man may be non-human & only vegetable.

Edit: grammar

Edited May 13, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

your Lone Nut theory is shaping up just fine....

While yours are not. LOL!!!

David Healy: Of course there's NO proof of film alteration, something I've stated for years

[Bill Miller]

Groden's pyracantha man appears only in one frame. If a real object, this

is not possible.

Jack

You are simply wrong ... the man's head is visible in several frames. Here is an example from some of the better frames ...

Bill

Edited May 13, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Mike Williams]

Bill,

Ever notice the similarities between the alterationists and a slinky? Both are rather simple, and both are amazingly fun to throw down the stairs!

Nice Job!

Mike

[Bill Miller]

BM thought that Hudson in that frame after that frame dropped to the ground & heard a third shot.

BM thought that Hudson heard a motorcycle backfire & confusedly assumed that the backfire was a shot.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head, which jibes with a TSBD shot.

So, BM thought that a motorcycle was above Hudson's head. (An echo?)

Therefore, Groden's Pyracantha Man may be non-human & only vegetable.

Edit: grammar

I guess someone who probably post under a false name and photo of themselves must feel that he doesn't need to be accurate ... just heard. If it is your contention that someone can be certain from which way a noise such as a backfire or gunshot is coming from while standing in the Plaza, then you have never experienced it for yourself. It is a known fact that sounds do bounce around in the Plaza.

Your mentioning a third shot and dropping to the ground is just idiocy IMO and I don't intend to explain something again that was written quite plainly the first time. You said it couldn't be done in two seconds and I pointed out that Hudson said that he was NEAR the ground. You have an amazing way of misstating things ... you should have stopped at 'Duncan has been consulting with Mack and Groden'.

Bill Miller

Edited May 13, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Groden's pyracantha man appears only in one frame. If a real object, this

is not possible.

Jack

You are simply wrong ... the man's head is visible in several frames. Here is an example from some of the better frames ...

Bill

I see it only in ONE frame; in the other frames it appears to be "a leaf"; and besides, those frames are misnumbered.

Jack

[Jack White]

This is also the sequence in which Clint Hill floats in air above the trunk.

The curb is seen underneath him.

Jack

Edited May 13, 2008 by Jack White

[Jack White]

BM thought that Hudson in that frame after that frame dropped to the ground & heard a third shot.

BM thought that Hudson heard a motorcycle backfire & confusedly assumed that the backfire was a shot.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head, which jibes with a TSBD shot.

So, BM thought that a motorcycle was above Hudson's head. (An echo?)

Therefore, Groden's Pyracantha Man may be non-human & only vegetable.

Edit: grammar

I guess someone who probably post under a false name and photo of themselves must feel that he doesn't need to be accurate ... just heard. If it is your contention that someone can be certain from which way a noise such as a backfire or gunshot is coming from while standing in the Plaza, then you have never experienced it for yourself. It is a known fact that sounds do bounce around in the Plaza.

Your mentioning a third shot and dropping to the ground is just idiocy IMO and I don't intend to explain something again that was written quite plainly the first time. You said it couldn't be done in two seconds and I pointed out that Hudson said that he was NEAR the ground. You have an amazing way of misstating things ... you should have stopped at 'Duncan has been consulting with Mack and Groden'.

Bill Miller

It is NOT a known fact how sounds "bounce around" in DP, except in the reports of Barger, Weiss and Ashkenazy.

I was present when guns were fired in the plaza. There were no separate echoes...only a booming reverberation.

Anyone who says they distinguish separate echos from separate locations is lying...the echoes all blend together

forming a "boom" coming from all directions.

Jack

Edited May 13, 2008 by Jack White

[Lee Forman]

Groden's pyracantha man appears only in one frame. If a real object, this

is not possible.

Jack

You are simply wrong ... the man's head is visible in several frames. Here is an example from some of the better frames ...

Bill

I agree with Bill on this one [attached]. I also still believe that there is a strong possibility for a shot [or shots] being fired after Kennedy's head was blown to smithereens - which could account for the Hudson account, but would never fit within a 'You only heard 3 shots' box.

- lee

[Miles Scull]

I agree with Bill on this one [attached]. - lee

BM thought that Hudson in that frame after that frame dropped to the ground & heard a third shot.

BM thought that Hudson heard a motorcycle backfire & confusedly assumed that the backfire was a shot.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head, which jibes with a TSBD shot.

So, BM thought that a motorcycle was above Hudson's head. (An echo?)

Therefore, Groden's Pyracantha Man may be non-human & only vegetable.

If it is your contention that someone can be certain from which way a noise such as a backfire or gunshot is coming from while standing in the Plaza, then you have never experienced it for yourself. It is a known fact that sounds do bounce around in the Plaza.

Bill Miller

If it is your contention that someone can be certain from which way a noise such as a backfire or gunshot is coming from while standing in the Plaza, then you have never experienced it for yourself.

Yes, that is correct. I have never been in Dealey Plaza when gun shots were being fired. But, neither have you.

One person, among many, was in Dealey Plaza when gun shots were being fired: Hudson, Emmett J.

Emmett could tell from where the third shot came from & he explained his observation in considerable detail & with conviction:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

So, Emmett is clear. Emmett is the red dot & the trajectories he describes are blue:

BM's idea that Emmett heard a motorcycle backfire places the motorcycle 50+ feet in the air between Emmett & the TSBD or the Dal-Tex.

Not a chance.

Not buying the ol' backfire ruse. Nonsense.

[Lee Forman]

BM's idea that Emmett heard a motorcycle backfire places the motorcycle 50+ feet in the air between Emmett & the TSBD or the Dal-Tex.

Not a chance.

Not buying the ol' backfire ruse. Nonsense.

I agree with you on that Miles - I used to laugh at that concept when I saw it on McAdams site originally.

However, we don't know what 'above and behind' means without having details as to his location - it could very well have meant a shot from behind the fence [that's how I always took it] - I am personally open to his having been 'corrected' before his HSCA 'correction.' The round that Tosh claims was found in the same area as the round Buddy Walthers claimed to have found [originally] the .45 in the dirt is intriguing to say the least. There is still the unanswered question on the pool of blood as well, which as per Coley's interview would be within some 10 feet from where we later see Hudson sitting / lying afterwards. Hard to get a read on with 100% accuracy here.

- lee

[Mike Williams]

Miles,

Could you explain to me just why the motorcycle backfiring would have to be 50 feet above the man laying on the ground? The man clearly states above and behind, however he gives no indication of the distance of either. Your drawing of trajectory makes little if no sense. Above and behind could have involved a multitude of angles, unless of course there is a specific area you are trying to promote. But than again, I guess if you consider ABOVE and BEHIND, as being described in great detail, you can make any assumption you wish.

[Miles Scull]

Miles,

Could you explain to me just why the motorcycle backfiring would have to be 50 feet above the man laying on the ground? The man clearly states above and behind, however he gives no indication of the distance of either. Your drawing of trajectory makes little if no sense. Above and behind could have involved a multitude of angles, unless of course there is a specific area you are trying to promote. But than again, I guess if you consider ABOVE and BEHIND, as being described in great detail, you can make any assumption you wish.

Sure thing, Mike. I'll address your question. But first a little preliminary data is necessary in order to make my answer clear. BM (Bill Miller) described how he would have effected a sniper shot from Hatman's position behind the picket fence. The problem is that since Hatman's hat is seen in Moorman's photo just barely above the top of the fence, then how can Hatman fire a rifle just then (the fatal head shot)? This is what BM said:

(Bill Miller @ Mar 16 2007, 04:37 PM)

I would have then rested my gun barrel between the fence slats so to get a steady shot off. Then all I would need to do is pull my gun back as I started to turn away from the scene which is what Ed Hoffman claims to have witnessed. - MILLER

Reply:

Bill, a sniper or a hunter never rests his barrel on anything if his target is moving. (If the target is stationary or has very little movement, then such supporting of the barrel becomes a possibility.) Placing the barrel between the fence slats guarantees a miss. Why? Because a stationary rifle limits the field of fire to a single point. Also, the slats would obscure sight & sighting of the approaching target making anticipation & timing virtually impossible. The option would be that the shooter would have to shuttle his body from right to left to swing the rifle in a rotation on the fulcrum point of the fence. Again never done.

Miles

Then this exchange occurred:

The "resting the barrel theory" is a guess & a bad one. The experienced sniper, cautiously & on fundamental operating procedure grounds, holding his rifle free from contact with any limiting obstructions is the reality. Remember, the sniper does not know how the car & the target within the car will move. He must give himself optimum chances to succeed. The sniper is not an amateur. -- Scull

Miller says: "I disagree... Anyone behind and/or in front of the limo had virtually a motionless target to hit IMO."

Again, to repeat, you miss the point. The point is simple. The movement of the limo as it actually did occur is irrelevant & immaterial to the question of how a sniper at hatman's locus would have handled his rifle. To repeat, the sniper did not know & could not have known in advance how the limo would move & how the target within the limo would move. Therefore, the sniper allows for & prepares for any & every possibility of movement. Resting the rifle barrel on anything (the fence) is a nonsense. More dogs not hunting. -- Scull

This post has been edited by Miles Scull: Mar 31 2007, 02:05 AM

Note:

Now, Mike, as a sniper yourself, would you agree with me or with BM about resting the barrel between the slats?

After hearing from you, I'll address your question in detail.

Edit: layout

Edited May 14, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

I see it only in ONE frame; in the other frames it appears to be "a leaf"; and besides, those frames are misnumbered.

Jack

Jack, somewhere back on the forum (maybe Miles can help for a change, there was a four frame gif that I posted showing Hudson turning his head with the movement of the car. So whether the frames are 1 - 4 or 16 - 20 - or 100 - 104 ... its not their numbers that was an issue here, but whether the person's head is seen in more than one frame.

Bill