Bill Miller ?........

[Mike Williams]

Tom,

I believe LHO was a better than average shot for civilian standards.

I do not know that with a marksman rating and a sharpshooter rating I would qualify him as excellent.

There is a lot to see in the z film, I myself have not positively settled on a shooting sequence yet. I do not hold with all the shots being fired from the Carcano, and certainly do not hold with this being a single shooter situation.

[Bill Miller]

don't sweat it Tom Kiehl.... we FINALLY found out BMiller can spell my name correctly after 7 years.

David, there is a forum doctor standing by in the event that you should ever post anything of substance on the JFK assassination rather than the usual disgruntled childish come-backs. As I recall ... it was YOU who had to ask me how I knew that the first shot came between Z186 and Z202.

You may notice that 'your guy' ... doesn't say the first shot came between Z186 and Z202, so he must know more than the witnesses who were there. Personally, I truly believe that there are those who are claiming to be CTs who are instead LNrs. That they operate looking like morons so to have other CTs lumped in the same pile as they - guilt by association as they say. The way I see it ... by embracing you - they cannot fail.

Bill Miller

[Mike Williams]

Bill,

I can almost hear Duncan serenading David:

"Doctor Doctor give me the news, I got a bad case of the Zapruder film blues.....

No facts are gonna cloud my head, I got a bad case of the Zapruder film blues.....

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

I believe LHO was a better than average shot for civilian standards.

I do not know that with a marksman rating and a sharpshooter rating I would qualify him as excellent.

There is a lot to see in the z film, I myself have not positively settled on a shooting sequence yet. I do not hold with all the shots being fired from the Carcano, and certainly do not hold with this being a single shooter situation.

1. LHO fired in the UPPER range of EXPERT in three out of five of the firing stations during boot camp rifle qualification.

2. Standing & unsupported, he was poor.

3. At the (if recalled correctly) longest range station, the winds had increased a large amount and he went through 4 or 5 windage adjustments attempting to compensate.

Nevertheless, his final score, even with a "non-qualification" at one station, was only a few points below the standard for Expert.

When firing from a fixed position, he was quite deadly!

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...hl=marksmanship

Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO

200 Yard Rapid Fire

Friday, Dec 21 (Qualification): Score of 48 out of maximum of possible 50.

Thursday, December 20 (practice): Score of 43 out of maximum of possible 50.

Wednesday, December 19 (practice): Score of 49 out of maximum of possible 50.

Tuesday, December 18 (practice): Score of 73 out of maximum of possible 80.

Monday, December 17 (practice): Appears to be a score of 46 out of maximum of possible 50.

Thursday: (prior week) first day of shooting practice: Score of 24 out of maximum of possible 25.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points, for 250 points maximum score.

Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were:

a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman

b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter

c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert

Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above, in order to attain the "EXPERT" qualification.

(220 divided by 250 = .88)

December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO:

1. 200 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 48 out of possible 50--------% rating:---96%

Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range.

2. 300 yard Rapid Fire:-------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92%

Classification for this shooting station:---------UPPER EXPERT range.

3. 500 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 46 out of possible 50--------% rating:--92%

Classification for this shooting station:--------UPPER EXPERT range.

4. 200 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 39 out of possible 50--------% rating:--78%

Classification for this shooting station:--------- BOTTOM range for Marksman qualification.

5. 300 yard Slow Fire:--------------Score: 33 out of possible 50--------% rating:--66%

Classification for this shooting station:-------Failure. Does not even qualify for Marksman.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for firing. It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing control, etc;.

**Although the 300 yard "SLOW-FIRE" station was a complete failure for LHO, it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this station. And, during this firing station, his "Windage" sight adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the wind speed increase.

Even with this, LHO managed a relative good "shot grouping", just that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target center.

From this information, and that which demonstrates that LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position, one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on, LHO easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification.

His capability for "Free-Hand"/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported firing was marginal, and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots fired.

Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot, knows little of what they speak.

Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have missed JFK on at least one of the three shots.

He was not in a cow pasture.

He was, for all practical purposes, firing from a sitting/bench rest position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the weapon for shooting accuracy. (see Bench Rest for shooting accuracy).

From which position, LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually uppermost ranges for EXPERT, and qualified on December 21 in the uppermost ranges for EXPERT, in a rapid-fire shooting environment.

Ask a Marine shooter about this.

[Mike Williams]

Ive qualified in this shooting enviroment many times.

Bottom line on Dec21 he fired 212 thats barely a sharpshooter. No matter how you try to wrap the numbers his overall performance was marginal at best.

The weapon he qualified with was nothing like the Carcano, in either action, nor sights.

His slow fire scores were worse than his rapids. Now compare the bolt action Carcano to the Semi Auto he qualified with, and I think you would find the Carcano would relate to slow fire.

Oswald qualified at Camp Matthews, hardly more than a cow pasture really. Nothing compared to Edson range where basic rifle quals are held today (and since 1964).

After leaving basic on 31Jan85, I reported to advanced infantry training at Pendleton, and then rolled over as a PMI for 8 weeks before moving on to the 1st MAR DIV.

My rifle Quals stayed upper 240's for my entire career, with one exception, in 1992 I qualed at 243, with the flu. I doubt there is much I would have to ask a "Marine Shooter".

No matter how you try to shake the numbers, he was a low end sharp shooter no more no less, until his next qual where he scraped as a marksman, and then just barely qualified. (which a point or two may have been given to him, this would not be unusual).

I do find it comical that you would compare the shooting event attributed with the Carcano, to a rapid fire event with an M1 rifle. Talk about apples to oranges!

So now how many times did he qualify expert?

How many times did he nearly qualify expert?

How many times, in series, did his rifle quals show improvement when compared to the qual before?

The answers 0, 0, and of course 0.

Not to mention the fact that this Sharpshooter is alleged to have completed a feat that Craig Robert's, and allegedly Carlos Hathcock himself stated they could not replicate. Of course I am sure they were just Marines, and I know your opinion of Marines.

If you have any further questions for a Marine Shooter, I am at your service.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Mike Williams

[Tom Kiehl]

and IF this was a lone nut job.....why were all the witnesses murdered or suicided out before testimony?.....that is why I am a CT.....

[Mike Williams]

Tom,

No DOUBT!

The reasons you mentioned and many many others. Nothing about this adds up to a lone nut job does it?

[Tom Kiehl]

nope.....and all the relationships b/w the paines and many high falotin' military complex industriealist figureheads that have the real money at stake......busch,cheney.....it goes on and on.....and ruby/oswald knowing eachother....so

[Tony Frank]

Ive qualified in this shooting enviroment many times.

Bottom line on Dec21 he fired 212 thats barely a sharpshooter. No matter how you try to wrap the numbers his overall performance was marginal at best.

The weapon he qualified with was nothing like the Carcano, in either action, nor sights.

His slow fire scores were worse than his rapids. Now compare the bolt action Carcano to the Semi Auto he qualified with, and I think you would find the Carcano would relate to slow fire.

Oswald qualified at Camp Matthews, hardly more than a cow pasture really. Nothing compared to Edson range where basic rifle quals are held today (and since 1964).

After leaving basic on 31Jan85, I reported to advanced infantry training at Pendleton, and then rolled over as a PMI for 8 weeks before moving on to the 1st MAR DIV.

My rifle Quals stayed upper 240's for my entire career, with one exception, in 1992 I qualed at 243, with the flu. I doubt there is much I would have to ask a "Marine Shooter".

No matter how you try to shake the numbers, he was a low end sharp shooter no more no less, until his next qual where he scraped as a marksman, and then just barely qualified. (which a point or two may have been given to him, this would not be unusual).

I do find it comical that you would compare the shooting event attributed with the Carcano, to a rapid fire event with an M1 rifle. Talk about apples to oranges!

So now how many times did he qualify expert?

How many times did he nearly qualify expert?

How many times, in series, did his rifle quals show improvement when compared to the qual before?

The answers 0, 0, and of course 0.

Not to mention the fact that this Sharpshooter is alleged to have completed a feat that Craig Robert's, and allegedly Carlos Hathcock himself stated they could not replicate. Of course I am sure they were just Marines, and I know your opinion of Marines.

If you have any further questions for a Marine Shooter, I am at your service.

I would like to add that Colonel Allison Folsom, who examined Oswald’s Marine Corps records for the Warren Commission, testified that Oswald’s record showed that his marksmanship was “not good” and that his average score over a two-day period was 36 when “people should get a score of between 48 and 50.” The record also showed that Oswald scored at the bottom in classification and aptitude tests when he entered the Marine Corps in 1956.

In addition to his testimony, Colonel Folsom sent a letter to the Warren Commission stating that two months after Oswald joined the Marines and received intensive Marine Corps training, he received a score of 212, two points above the minimum for sharpshooter, while firing at a stationary target with a Marine-issued M-1 rifle on a Marine Corps rifle range. On May 6, 1959, four months before his defection to the Soviet Union, his score was 191, one point above the bare minimum to qualify as a Marksman.

Folsom also stated, “A low Marksman qualification indicates a rather poor shot and a Sharpshooter qualification indicates a fairly good shot.”

Colonel Folsom’s information shows clearly that after Oswald’s first two months of intensive Marine Corps training, he managed to qualify at the low end of being a “fairly good shot.” But two and a half years later, with a score that was one point above the bare minimum to qualify as a Marksman, Oswald was nowhere near a “fairly good shot.” He was most definitely a “rather poor shot,” even though he was still firing at a stationary target with a Marine-issued M-1 rifle on a Marine Corps rifle range.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Ive qualified in this shooting enviroment many times.

Bottom line on Dec21 he fired 212 thats barely a sharpshooter. No matter how you try to wrap the numbers his overall performance was marginal at best.

The weapon he qualified with was nothing like the Carcano, in either action, nor sights.

His slow fire scores were worse than his rapids. Now compare the bolt action Carcano to the Semi Auto he qualified with, and I think you would find the Carcano would relate to slow fire.

Oswald qualified at Camp Matthews, hardly more than a cow pasture really. Nothing compared to Edson range where basic rifle quals are held today (and since 1964).

After leaving basic on 31Jan85, I reported to advanced infantry training at Pendleton, and then rolled over as a PMI for 8 weeks before moving on to the 1st MAR DIV.

My rifle Quals stayed upper 240's for my entire career, with one exception, in 1992 I qualed at 243, with the flu. I doubt there is much I would have to ask a "Marine Shooter".

No matter how you try to shake the numbers, he was a low end sharp shooter no more no less, until his next qual where he scraped as a marksman, and then just barely qualified. (which a point or two may have been given to him, this would not be unusual).

I do find it comical that you would compare the shooting event attributed with the Carcano, to a rapid fire event with an M1 rifle. Talk about apples to oranges!

So now how many times did he qualify expert?

How many times did he nearly qualify expert?

How many times, in series, did his rifle quals show improvement when compared to the qual before?

The answers 0, 0, and of course 0.

Not to mention the fact that this Sharpshooter is alleged to have completed a feat that Craig Robert's, and allegedly Carlos Hathcock himself stated they could not replicate. Of course I am sure they were just Marines, and I know your opinion of Marines.

If you have any further questions for a Marine Shooter, I am at your servic

Not to mention the fact that this Sharpshooter is alleged to have completed a feat that Craig Robert's, and allegedly Carlos Hathcock himself stated they could not replicate.

First off, none of those "shooters" you have referenced bothered to find out that there WAS NOT three shots stuffed in between the first and Z313 headshot (which was in reality the second shot)

Had these Shooters also been "readers", as opposed to merely believing what everyone else said, then just perhaps they would not have so readily inserted their foot into their mouth in regards to the shooting sequence and hit probability which actualy occurred.

As to the ability to operate and accurately fire the Carcano, well!

In the 5.8 to 5.9 seconds of elapsed time between the first shot and the Z313/aka second shot impact, this is "Boy Scout" shooting.

So any question would be can you hit an extremely slow moving target at a range of 242 feet (80 yards) in which the target is moving almost directly away from you, with a rifle which has the accuracy equivilancy of the M-14. Given 5.8 to 5.9 seconds of time in which to operate and aim the weapon.

About three out of five 12-year old deer hunters down here in S. Mississippi could accomplish this feat.

P.S. Having "broken in" on the Garand, rest assured that for all practical purposes I would chose the Carcano 91/38 as my weapon of choice, unless of course having to shoot at targets in excess of 100 meters.

Of course I am sure they were just Marines, and I know your opinion of Marines.

Actually, I demonstrate little in the way of predjudice, as an "equal opportunity" ciritic, I give all persons the opportunity to demonstrate exactly how little that they know about the shooting events in Dealey Plaza.

Personally, were I to actually "argue" a point which deals with shots fired, it would be in regards to the third shot (the directly in front of James Altgens impact) which occurred approximately 1.9 to 2.0 seconds after the Z313 impact as it was a rapid fire/snap shot which still struck JFK in the head as well.

[Miles Scull]

Personally, were I to actually "argue" a point which deals with shots fired, it would be in regards to the third shot (the directly in front of James Altgens impact) which occurred approximately 1.9 to 2.0 seconds after the Z313 impact as it was a rapid fire/snap shot which still struck JFK in the head as well.

That's interesting, Tom.

Hudson also said the third shot occurred post Z-313.

Could you compress into a short summary the evidence & reasoning for this, as you see it?

Thx

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Personally, were I to actually "argue" a point which deals with shots fired, it would be in regards to the third shot (the directly in front of James Altgens impact) which occurred approximately 1.9 to 2.0 seconds after the Z313 impact as it was a rapid fire/snap shot which still struck JFK in the head as well.

That's interesting, Tom.

Hudson also said the third shot occurred post Z-313.

Could you compress into a short summary the evidence & reasoning for this, as you see it?

Thx

Done, long ago, here!

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

-----------------------------------------------------

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather*--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Looks as if someone made one of those "Freudian Slips"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip

Of which there exists a considerable number within the WC. Provided of course one knows exactly what to look for.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg

Last frame of Z-film published by the Warren Commission.

FBI Agent Shaneyfelt testified that this was the last frame of any interest.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z347.jpg

How about that! James Altgens standing with the camera up to his eye!

Now!

One would be remiss were they not to point out the following additional facts and information.

1. The WC made a completely phony re-enactment photo which was meant to represent the Altgens Z255 photo. (CE900)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm

Which was in fact made from a completely different alignment and location than that which James Altgens was actually standing when he took the photo.*

One does not have to "research" the photograpic evidence for 25+ years to recognize that the WC re-enactment photo and the original Altgens photo ARE NOT taken in the same alignment. All that one actually has to do is look at letters of the TSDB in the background which appear within the fork of the tree, as well as compare the positions of the JFK stand-in & JFK, with the corner of the concrete column in the background. To include other vertical alignment comparisons of the two vehicles.

2. Even though the photograph of James Altgens (Z-film photo) which showed him holding the camera to his eye had appeared in newspapers throughout the US within a couple of days after the assassination, the WC decided that there was nothing worthwhile past Z334 (prior to Altgens coming into view in the Z-film) worth our getting to see.

3. The WC made every effort to NOT CALL James Altgens to testify, and did so only after a newspaper ran an article questioning the WC and why they did not/had not bothered to call a highly qualified newspaper reporter who had also taken critical evidence photo's of the assassination.

4. The WC, on paper, managed to "move" the position of James Altgens, who was actually approximately 40+ feet farther down Elm St. from the Moorman/Hill location, to a point on Elm St. which in fact would have placed James Altgens position between the Moorman/Hill location and the TSDB.

5. If one will read up on all of the Nellie/JBC testimonies, as well as Nellie's handwritten notes which were written some 8 to 10 days after the event, they will clearly find that repeated reference is made to the last shot impact occurring after JBC was down in the seat with his head in Nellie's lap.

In that regards, one just might want to compare this testimony with the Z313 impact and JBC's position of sitting virtually erect.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg

Lastly!

Yes Virginia:

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

James Altgens position was, across the street from the "steps", and, as is the second of the yellow curb marks at which he was standing, "down by those steps"*

*Actually, Altgen's position was approximately 20-feet back up Elm St. from a point in direct alignment of the steps and the opposite side (Altgens side) of the street. Which, with the elapsed time due to the speed of sound and distance travelled, coupled with the vehicle speed, would have placed the Presidential Limo in the exact vicinity of the steps by the time that Emmett Hudson heard the report/retort of the rifle shot.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In event one takes the time to research same, they will find multiple postings which include the majority of those witnesses who observed, as well as stated, that the Z313 impact to the head of JFK was the SECOND SHOT fired in the shooting sequence.

To include SS Agent Glenn Bennett who appears to have been the most observant, even if lacking in reactive ability.

The United States Secret Service, stood and "gawked" around during the 5.8 to 5.9 second time period in which the first shot which struck JFK (CE399) produced only a non-fatal wound to JFK, and the shooter thereafter took way more than sufficient time to operate the weapon, re-acquire the target through the scope, and then blow the top of JFK's head and brain off with the Z313/aka second shot impact.

Then, with only SS Agent Clint Hill (who was designated to protect Jackie) reacting and beginning to run to her protection, the shooter than performed a "snap shot" and in approximately 2.0 seconds time again hit JFK in the head (for the second time) while those SS Agents designated to protect JFK still stood dumbfounded on the running board of the Queen Mary/SS followup vehicle.

Not to mention the fact that SS Agent Greer's actions in slowing the Presidential Limo down in the same lack of reactive protective instinct, made the shooting event that much easier.

And now, we have the "Rest of the Story" as to why the US Secret Service was complicent with Specter & the WC in obfuscation of the simple facts, and even though their work of the assassination re-enactment of December 5, 1963 (date of West Survey Plat), clearly plotted the impact point of each of the three shots fired, to include the Altgens impact at survey station 4+95, the SS (or at least their upper management) was more than willing to allow a third shot impact disappear and make as if three shots were gotten off in the first shot to Z313 impact, and that this event transpired so rapidly that none of the SS Agents could have been expected to react and save the life of JFK.

The forensic/pathological facts of the EOP entry, it's elongated penetration through the skull; as well as it's "tunnelling" through the the soft tissue of the neck BELOW the point of entry into the skull, will tell one the exact position which JFK's head had to be in at the point of impact of this bullet.

And lastly, the fact that Henry Heiberger found and examined the entry through the coat (the 1/4 inch hole) which this bullet created at the lower edge of the coat collar, and which penetration contained copper residue, merely is the "Icing on the Cake" in regards to the third shot fired.*

And, it most assuredly was not the vertical position as seen in Z313.

* For those who may not have caught on, Henry Heiberger DID examine both bullet holes in the rear of JFK's coat.

He took a sample from the inside of the coat at the 1/2 inch hole (CE399 penetration) which correlated with the 1/2 inch penetration through the shirt worn by JFK.

And, he took a sample from the exterior of the coat at the 1/4 inche penetration, which happens to be the second bullet penetration hole which he found located just below the edge of the coat collar, and which Specter; Hoover: Frazier & Company passed off as if it were where some "control " sample was taken.

Both samples revealed traces of copper!

[Miles Scull]

Done, long ago, here!

Thanks, Tom.

Couple of ideas.

But first, do you think that this is Hudson's head (white circle) in this frame?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

Interesting shooting sequence.

I was certainly referring to the 313 as the final shot, you contend there was one after that one?

I will drop you an email about Murray, I think that it is VERY likely you may have crossed his path.

Mike

I will drop you an email about Murray, I think that it is VERY likely you may have crossed his path.

I would assume that you are speaking of this "YAHOO", who by the way claims to be an "ex"-Marine.

Fortunately, he does not claim to be ex-SF, as he no doubt is aware that we do not take kindly to "wannabee's!

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Shepherd's_Chapel

Born in the Pleiades star system on a small planet named Oklahoma (not to be confused with the US state also named 'Oklahoma'), Arnold Murray inhabited the body of a young man from Gravette, Arkansas, underwent US Marine Corps training, and single-handedly defeated the communist forces in southern Korea, near the Panama Canal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I am suprised that he did not claim to have been a "Scout Sniper"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #37

Son Tay, and the whole McDonald mess lends to credibility. Im sure you can figure this out with a little effort.

Well! Provided was the envelope from one of Jeff's (Jeffrey MacDonald) letters to me back in 1987.

Now, if it would serve any purpose, I could take the time and effort to post the letter, as well as a box full of others.

After all, one certainly would not want to "lose credibility" amongst those who actually possess no credibility to begin with.

Easier to just email the MacDonald webite and ask his wife to relay the question as to whether or not we knew each other in the old 3rd SF as well as the 6th SF.

http://www.themacdonaldcase.org/

Would certainly save me the time and effort of providing letters and correspondence, which most would probably not believe anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's see now! Anyone having difficulty in locating George Petrie or Udo Walther in Dallas to verify whether we all were a part of "Colonel Robbie's" chosen few and all of whom interviewed for and were initially accepted as potential members of the Son Tay Team.

(Of course, the final selection was up to Col. Bull Simons).

Unfortunately, Colonel Simons is now deceased, (Died in Ponce De Leon Springs, FL), as well as so is Richard (Dick) Meadows, who was also sent up from Benning to "D" Company, 6th Group (specifically at Colonel Simons request),.

So with the rapid demise (George was in bad health last that I heard and had sold his "Peregrine" company), not unlike the JFK assassination, we are getting old and the loss of verification witnesses is getting quite slim.

http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_13.htm

Another example of the symbiotic relationship between the private sector and the covert community is Peregrine International in Dallas, Texas. Founded by Guy S. Howard and Ronald R. Tucker, Peregrine was most recently run by George Petrie, a veteran the Army's secret Delta-Force. Petrie told the Dallas Morning News that his company "consults" with foreign governments on terrorism. Petrie displays pictures of him with George Bush and other prominent politicians.[1287]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In that regards, assuming that George is still living, one could call and ask if CPT Tom Purvis is one of those who signed the papers which recommended him for a Direct Commission to the rank of 1LT, from his SFC/E-7 rating as my "Training/S-3/Company Operations NCO.

Or, if one can find Udo and he will talk about the event, the story as to how he came to bring home the only souvineir (NVA Belt Buckle) from the Son Tan Raid, is well worth hearing as well as a few good laughs.

Never could understand exactly why he gave it to Perot!

Lastly, in the Dallas area, one just may locate Colonel Larry Greene, my old 'XO".

Although a retired full Colonel in the United States Army Special Operations Forces (SF), Larry nevertheless volunteered for active duty in order to take an SF Command in the Iraqi conflict, and served and again returned to service and served an extend tour there.

(Certainly beats calling oneself a retired LTC in Special Forces, when in fact one is a retired LTC in the United States Army Quartermaster Supply Corps)/aka Dangerous Dan Marvin.

Which by the way, only a "know-knothing"/wannabee would fall for and believe the wild tales told.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #51

Of course I am sure they were just Marines, and I know your opinion of Marines.

Actually, as clearly demonstrated by your lack of knowledge relateive to the shooting event in Dealey Plaza, as well as the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence, I would have to surmise that you do not know much of anything other than perhaps how to shoot a rifle.

I have great admiration for many Marines, and can claim as personal friends several USMC Officers's and Enlisted Personell, to include some "ex-Marines".

Such as the below, who happens to be an "EX"- Marine who left the USMC because in his own words, they were "wusse's".

Now, "Smitty" on the left, ultimately became SF; HALO; HALO Jumpmaster; HALO Instructor; SCUBA; SCUBA Committed Instructor (at time of photo), served with the 5th SF as well as with CCN, and was most assuredly one of the "baddest of the bad".

The attached photo is when Smitty and I put in a 10,000 free-fall into the Key West State Fair Grounds, Key West, FL, for their promotional activities opening.

Of the various other HALO Qualified Underwater Operations Committee Instructors, Smitty was the only one who could be trusted to hit the extremely small drop zone between Highway#1 and the water.

Smitty was also the only one who I would trust to conduct the training of my Ex-wife in skydiving, up at the old Green Beret Parachute Club at Bragg, when she decided that she too wanted some of that thrill (21 free falls under her belt)

Now, the "Murray/Wannabee" on the right is ole wannabee Cpt Tom Purvis in his old HALO Instructor Jump Suit, complete with a variety of patches sewn on which are:

1. USPA patch

2. Green Beret Sport Parachute Club Patch

3. Second Infantry Division Sport Parachute Club Patch (President of Club during tour of duty in South Korea)

4. Air Force Association Patch (given to me and others for a "demo" jump at Ft. Worth, Texas) in which an old friend who was an ex-free faller and airplane driver asked if we could come down and help him with the demo

http://www.icasfoundation.org/hall_fame/1997/hf_hillard.htm

Now, would it serve any additional purpose, I could, I suppose, dig out my ole free-fall log book and show you Charlie's signature.

But then again, it too is probably forged as well.

So! In reality, some "Marines" I have great respect for.

Others, I have no problem with the term "Jarhead" and/or "Swabby" with.

And having had to deal with a considerable multitude of the USMC "Battalion Recon" teams, with my SCUBA Instructors providing the "Safety Net" during their submarine forward escape trunk exit and assent", rest assured that the majority fall with in the latter of the two categories referenced.

Which is all pale in comparison to what Smitty often referenced his own former branch of the service.

If you are "too mean" for the USMC, then SF wants to talk with you about an employment position!

[Mike Williams]

Tom,

Actually Arnie (his given name not Arnold) was my Grand Fathers Brother. Also a Green Beret, served in Korea and Vietnam. Retired and went to work for the US Border patrol. I just thought given your situation you may have crossed his path, he is a rather unforgettable kind of guy.