Is The State of Israel Above The Law?

[William Kelly]

At least Bill's found something a bit more useful to read than Right Side News.

I've studied the Israeli-Palestinian "conflict" for over 30 years now. According to my bio, I have a BA with a major in International Studies, the main focus area on the Middle East, and a major advisor who was a Muslim originally from Madras, India. According to my CV, my courses included a culminating Senior Seminar (INS 461) with a required final paper -- "Politics Of Fear: Terrorism In The Middle East," 1 April 1986. I know this stuff back and forth, and it's occurred to me that it might be worthwhile to provide a brief history of the situation, adapting my paper on terrorism, as well as related issues like uncritical US support of Israel since the Reagan Administration and the problem of people being unable to distinguish between Israel/Israelis and Jews as such. So in other words I don't need Cynthia McKinney to tell me what to think about the situation....... And there really would be no point to go to all that trouble, trying to "help people understand," because I know all too well that it doesn't pay around here. People only listen to who they want to and "look up to" (Cynthia McKinney, among a host of others), and only want to believe what they already believe. Aside from that, this gig doesn't pay any money at all, no matter how many contributions one tries to make............. So why take it seriously? If people are too dim to recognize a problem without hearing from Cynthia McKinney, then they're beyond hope anyway.

DWD,

Now don't confuse me with what Cynthia McKinney has to say but nowhere do I hear her tell you or anyone what to think or belive.

Cynthia sent those reports to me and other friends by email and you are mistaken if you think I "look up" to Cynthia, who I admire for getting into the fray. She's not a liberal who leaves the room when the fight begins.

And who are the people you are talking about "beyond hope" who are too dim to recognize a problem without hearing from Cynthia McKinney?

I don't even agree with her on this issue, but I shared her first hand report from the scene, while you sit in your middle America chair reading books and reports and call yourself a specialist.

While I don't always agree with her, McKinney is one of the few Congressmen who activally opposed US military support for Israel and supported the Palestinians, who now have no one in Congress who will take up their cause.

I posted her report from the scene not because I agree with it or I want to tell anybody what to think, but because I thought it relevenat to the discussion.

At least Cynthia is trying to do something about the problem and put herself in harms way trying.

BK

[Mark Stapleton]

Wait a minute - Forget about the opinion of fairmined observers, of which you certainly cannot consider youself - but where did you get the evident "religious hatreds evident" in my posts?

Please show me my hatred, and for which side do I hate?

It's all over your posts. In this thread alone; post #26, "Hamas weeks long attack from schools and churches". That's rubbish Bill; Post #36, "Hamas terrorists don't want to create a community". Also rubbish; Post #48, "If the majority of people vote for Islamic rule, where women cannot attend school, centuries old monuments are destroyed....". Who knows what you're talking about here, Bill.

Many of your posts are full of fear and hatred for Islam. You're like a walking Fox News editorial. You seem to think that all the countries in the ME need Israel to take them over, otherwise Islamic fundamentalism will be endemic.

It's as silly as me claiming that all Christians are fire and brimstone lunatics like Pat Robertson.

That's what I mean, Bill.

[Guest]

Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo.

What a long-winded journey it was to get to your core belief.

[Mark Stapleton]

Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo.

What a long-winded journey it was to get to your core belief.

And I see you took the shortcut to moral bankruptcy.

The current Israeli military campaign--apparently six months in the planning (so much for the claim that the Palestinians started it)--was the final straw for me.

There exists within the Israeli leadership a malignancy which now threatens the future of the planet. It's been stated here and elsewhere that the majority of Jews living in Israel don't support this campaign and I believe that. However, this is scant compensation for the Palestinians and the rest of the world. If the majority of Jews want peace with their neighbours, and Israel is the shiny democracy that some would have us believe it is, then why is the IDF still running amok after all these years? The answer is that Israel is a democracy in name only, imo. The great majority of Jews seem as powerless as the rest of the world in stopping the longest running ethnic cleansing in modern history.

The other point to make is that if part of the purpose of this military campaign is the February election campaign, then's what's to be said about the electorate they are playing up to? Who's doing all the cheering in Tel Aviv? Perhaps the military and political leaders in Israel are also looking for cheers from certain people in the US. Here in Australia, most election campaigns feature a putrid public Dutch Auction between political rivals over who will be the toughest on crime. It seems to me that Israel's electoral auction is over who will be the toughest on Palestine.

Do you want to debate these issues or just throw insults from the sideline, Andy?

[William Kelly]

Wait a minute - Forget about the opinion of fairmined observers, of which you certainly cannot consider youself - but where did you get the evident "religious hatreds evident" in my posts?

Please show me my hatred, and for which side do I hate?

It's all over your posts. In this thread alone; post #26, "Hamas weeks long attack from schools and churches". That's rubbish Bill; Post #36, "Hamas terrorists don't want to create a community". Also rubbish; Post #48, "If the majority of people vote for Islamic rule, where women cannot attend school, centuries old monuments are destroyed....". Who knows what you're talking about here, Bill.

Many of your posts are full of fear and hatred for Islam. You're like a walking Fox News editorial. You seem to think that all the countries in the ME need Israel to take them over, otherwise Islamic fundamentalism will be endemic.

It's as silly as me claiming that all Christians are fire and brimstone lunatics like Pat Robertson.

That's what I mean, Bill.

I didn't know Hamas was a religion.

And they certainly did shoot rockets from schools and churches.

And I don't fear Islam, in fact I kind of like Sufi Islam and their sense of humor, but you probably don't subscribe to that branch. A Sufi would throw shoes not rockets.

What I do hate with a pashion are the Taliban and the fundamentalist Islamic revolutionaries who impose fundamentalist Islamic law on the entire societies they conquor, enslave the women, kill the children who have cooperated with the western society and destroy centuries old Budda monuments because they don't understand them.

Apparently things you support.

And I appologize to DWD for calling him an armchair liberal and welcome him to the fray.

And I want to thank Cidgdem for having the compassion for the Palestine people to start this thread.

I don't always agree with Cynthia McKinney, or her former legislative assistant John Judge (Whose motto is 'Judge for Yourself'), since we often argue among ourselves on issues, but next time I see her I am going to ask Cynthia why nobody complained about the Hamas rocket attacks from Gaza?

That was when people should have complained, and the outrage should have been expended, and this extended battle could possibly have been averted.

Bill Kelly

Edited January 11, 2009 by William Kelly

[Charles Drago]

That was when people should have complained, and the outrage should have been expended, and this extended battle could possibly have been averted.

Bill Kelly

Except ...

Since when has toothless outrage changed behavior such as that displayed by Israel?

Bill, if we've learned nothing else from our respective studies of the JFK case in particular and deep political phenomena in general, it is that things most often are not what they seem.

What makes you think that Israel did not encourage the rocket attacks as a tactic in a longer (in duration), deeper (in motivation) strategy?

Over at the Deep Politics Forum we've looked at Naomi Klein's proposal for dramatic, non-violent action to stop Israel's criminality in its tracks (see post #98):

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sh...525&page=10

Her plan seems as viable as it is principled.

Back to my original point: We cannot in good conscience eschew deep political analyses of deep political events simply because we likely won't be pleased by what we discover.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Charles Drago

[Mark Stapleton]

I didn't know Hamas was a religion.

And I didn't say it was, as you know.

And they certainly did shoot rockets from schools and churches.

Quick, Robin---------to the internet!

And I don't fear Islam, in fact I kind of like Sufi Islam and their sense of humor, but you probably don't subscribe to that branch. A Sufi would throw shoes not rockets.

What I do hate with a pashion are the Taliban and the fundamentalist Islamic revolutionaries who impose fundamentalist Islamic law on the entire societies they conquor, enslave the women, kill the children who have cooperated with the western society and destroy centuries old Budda monuments because they don't understand them.

Holy repetition Batman! It's that blasted speech again.

This is like a thing with you, Bill. I know how you hate Muslim fundamentalism. You've mentioned it dozens of times. I hate those murdering fanatics, too. I dislike all fundamentalist religion. And I know how brutal and primitive fundamentalist Islamic States like Saudi Arabia and Iran are. As John Simkin has laboriously tried to explain to you, the current policies of the US and Israeli Governments provide them with oxygen.

Bill Kelly

Edited January 11, 2009 by Mark Stapleton

[Mark Stapleton]

Back to my original point: We cannot in good conscience eschew deep political analyses of deep political events simply because we likely won't be pleased by what we discover.

Precisely.

[David G. Healy]

If people are too dim to recognize a problem without hearing from Cynthia McKinney, then they're beyond hope anyway.

Good point.

And as John Simkin and others have pointed out, the only sure outcome from this genocide is a new generation of Palestinians committed to the destruction of Israel.

Israel and its apologists claim that launching rockets into their territory is unacceptable. Cigdem posted that 20 Israeli deaths have resulted in the last ten years. I have read it is 17 deaths in the past seven. Either way, it's about 2.5 deaths per year. This is a miniscule price to pay for the misery heaped on these people (Israel's neighbours) over the last 100 years. Fairminded observers can see this because they are not blinded by the religious hatreds evident in the posts of Bill K and David H.

As this piece from Diane Mason outlines, the Jewish population in Palestine at the time of the first settlements in the late 19th century was about 3.3%, according to the census of the Ottoman Empire.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2008/12/what-if.html

The Palestinians have witnessed the colonial powers bestow their land to a people whose brutality and bellicosity have become a unique trademark. They have become not only strangers in their own land, but prisoners in a modern day concentration camp. Of course, Israel has yet to abide by UNSC Res. 242 and 338. They never will, imo. Israel always claims their security is at stake but they are the regional superpower, with nuclear weapons to boot. One must ask, how much security does Israel require?

How dare Israel demand that the Palestinians renounce terror (i.e. resistance) and pay homage to their brutal overlords. Any who refuse to pay homage, like the democratically elected Hamas, are immediately denounced as terrorists by Israel and its mainstream media partners. By this definition, I would be classified as a terrorist, too.

Moreover, for the last two or three years Israel has been pushing the US to attack Iran, brainwashing the world into believing that Iran is a threat to global security. What is evident however, is that it is Israel who is the greatest threat to global peace. An attack on Iran would enflame the entire region instantly and almost certainly gain the attention of Russia and China. Thus it is Israel who are willing to risk a global conflagration in order to suit their own selfish ends, once again.

A mature and peace loving Israel would recognise that they were fortunate indeed to be granted a new home in the land of their biblical ancestors. They would behave like responsible residents in the region and respect the rights of their less powerful neighbours. They are the newest kid on the block, after all. Instead, they use cluster bombs and phosphorous. They slaughter the children of their neighbours.

Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo.

"Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo."

--Mark Stapelton

and you're suggesting WHAT, praytell?

Edited January 11, 2009 by David G. Healy

[Mark Stapleton]

"Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo."

--Mark Stapelton

and you're suggesting WHAT, praytell?

I dunno. Boycotts, isolation, some form of global collective action. I kinda thought Obama might have something to say. Of course, he's tied by Congress and Congress is tied up by the Israel Lobby. Or maybe I'm just spreading false rumors, David.

Certainly peaceful. You don't always need to use force to be forceful.

What do you suggest? Business as usual?

[Cigdem Göle]

And I want to thank Cigdem for having the compassion for the Palestine people to start this thread.

Bill Kelly

At this point of the discussion, allow me to thank everyone who participate in this thread for their

sensitivity to the subject. We might not agree on every aspect of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict

but it is surely a matter we must not ignore.

I'd also like to express my deepest gratitude to my colleagues in Ankara University /SFL (I know they

are constant readers of The Education Forum) who have been helping me with the gathering of clothes,

food and medical supplies for the Turkish Red Crescent to be sent to Gaza.

[Pamela Brown]

Israel has shown by its current demonizing of Gaza and incursion, on top of its ongoing occupation, that it is incapable of governing the Palestinian people. It should not be allowed to have any power over them at all. They are creating their own shoah, and their arrogance does not even allow them to acknowledge it.

I recently wrote to the United Nations in hopes that someone there can provide sanity to this situation:

"Dear respected Sir or Madam:

It seems to me that the problems in the Holy Land cannot be solved by

Israel, and therefore, need to be addressed by the UN, which granted

Israel its charter. Initially and ideally, both the Jewish state and

Palestinian state should have been created at the same time. Ideally,

too, neither of them should have been allowed to have arms -- that

could have been a condition of their grant. Because those things did

not happen, we have today an almost impossible situation.

It is time to go back to the drawing boards. Protection for these two

states could come from the UN through the countries that protect their

interests anyhow, such as the US and Russia in the Security Council.

The major powers have a stake in the protection of the Holy Land, and

their clout and diplomatic channels could provide for protection for

both states.

Israel has shown by its recent actions in Gaza that it is unable to

deal with the situation their occupation has created. Nothing more can

be gained by allowing them to have any say over the occupied

territories.

Sincerely,

Pamela Brown

Minneapolis, MN USA"

Now they have barred most newspeople from Gaza and those few who are allowed to be their have a gag order not to talk about much of what is happening. How much worse can it get?

They are currently defying the UN order for ceasefire as well. This is illegal and immoral. Those who made sacrifices on behalf of the Jewish people during WWII cannot help but feel a sense of betrayal, as those they fought to save and their descendants have become heartless bullies in the Holy Land.

[Terry Mauro]

If people are too dim to recognize a problem without hearing from Cynthia McKinney, then they're beyond hope anyway.

Good point.

And as John Simkin and others have pointed out, the only sure outcome from this genocide is a new generation of Palestinians committed to the destruction of Israel.

Israel and its apologists claim that launching rockets into their territory is unacceptable. Cigdem posted that 20 Israeli deaths have resulted in the last ten years. I have read it is 17 deaths in the past seven. Either way, it's about 2.5 deaths per year. This is a miniscule price to pay for the misery heaped on these people (Israel's neighbours) over the last 100 years. Fairminded observers can see this because they are not blinded by the religious hatreds evident in the posts of Bill K and David H.

As this piece from Diane Mason outlines, the Jewish population in Palestine at the time of the first settlements in the late 19th century was about 3.3%, according to the census of the Ottoman Empire.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2008/12/what-if.html

The Palestinians have witnessed the colonial powers bestow their land to a people whose brutality and bellicosity have become a unique trademark. They have become not only strangers in their own land, but prisoners in a modern day concentration camp. Of course, Israel has yet to abide by UNSC Res. 242 and 338. They never will, imo. Israel always claims their security is at stake but they are the regional superpower, with nuclear weapons to boot. One must ask, how much security does Israel require?

How dare Israel demand that the Palestinians renounce terror (i.e. resistance) and pay homage to their brutal overlords. Any who refuse to pay homage, like the democratically elected Hamas, are immediately denounced as terrorists by Israel and its mainstream media partners. By this definition, I would be classified as a terrorist, too.

Moreover, for the last two or three years Israel has been pushing the US to attack Iran, brainwashing the world into believing that Iran is a threat to global security. What is evident however, is that it is Israel who is the greatest threat to global peace. An attack on Iran would enflame the entire region instantly and almost certainly gain the attention of Russia and China. Thus it is Israel who are willing to risk a global conflagration in order to suit their own selfish ends, once again.

A mature and peace loving Israel would recognise that they were fortunate indeed to be granted a new home in the land of their biblical ancestors. They would behave like responsible residents in the region and respect the rights of their less powerful neighbours. They are the newest kid on the block, after all. Instead, they use cluster bombs and phosphorous. They slaughter the children of their neighbours.

Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo.

"Israel, in their present form, have forfeited their right to exist, imo."

--Mark Stapelton

and you're suggesting WHAT, praytell?

*****************************************************

"...and you're suggesting WHAT, praytell?"

Take away their nuclear warheads.

[Mark Stapleton]

"...and you're suggesting WHAT, praytell?"

Take away their nuclear warheads.

That would be a good idea Terry but the problem is that Israel have never officially confirmed they have nuclear weapons.

That's how they avoided the problem of UN inspections. With Israel, it's all about opacity.

I'd like to see the US cut off all aid to Israel, but it's very unlikely considering Congress is under the control of the Israel lobby.

[Ron Ecker]

I'd like to see the US cut off all aid to Israel, but it's very unlikely considering Congress is under the control of the Israel lobby.

It's not just the Israel lobby. The U.S. sees Israel as an important ally. I don't know why it's seen as an important ally, it just is.

Maybe DWD can tell us before his account runs out.