The Trouble with Conspiracy Theories

[William Kelly]

"So, structurally, there is just no plausible way for an “inside job” conspiracy of the JFK assassination or 9/11 type to work. There is simply not enough harmony between the different institutions that would have to be involved, either of a natural sort or the type imposed by force."

Far easier to blame it on the big, bad ole "Government', then to admit that one either has the inability to resolve, or is not willing to expend the time and resources necessary to resolve many of the simple facts as relates to the events in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

Not that it could not be made to "work", merely that it could not be kept under wraps.

"SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED" comes to mind.

Tom

Yea, Tom, "Someone would have Taked" does come to mind.

Have you read it?

Not blaming the government. Blaming people who took over the government.

And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

BK

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"So, structurally, there is just no plausible way for an “inside job” conspiracy of the JFK assassination or 9/11 type to work. There is simply not enough harmony between the different institutions that would have to be involved, either of a natural sort or the type imposed by force."

Far easier to blame it on the big, bad ole "Government', then to admit that one either has the inability to resolve, or is not willing to expend the time and resources necessary to resolve many of the simple facts as relates to the events in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

Not that it could not be made to "work", merely that it could not be kept under wraps.

"SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED" comes to mind.

Tom

Yea, Tom, "Someone would have Talked" does come to mind.

Have you read it?

Not blaming the government. Blaming people who took over the government.

And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

BK

Yea, Tom, "Someone would have Talked" does come to mind.

Have you read it?

Nope! Plan on getting an autographed copy soon though!

Not blaming the government. Blaming people who took over the government.

Some, who played an instrumental part in feeding us the BS of the WC, were associated with high office, and some managed to reach high office. However, of my knowledge, none actually "took over" the government of the US.

Of course, I was absent on an extended 1-year all expenses paid vacation to the jungles of SE Asia, and not only did not know too much of what went on here, but also truly had other things more important to concern myself with at the time.

So, I could have easily missed it when the government of the US was taken over.

And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise.

And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event.

[Ron Ecker]

That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise.

Can you give me a good explanation of the large exit wound in the back of JFK's head, so that I may rejoin the lone-nut camp, which I forsook in my foolish youth?

[William Kelly]

BK: And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

Tom: "What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise. And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event."

Yea Ron, I have a problem with that line too. I thought Tom had corrected himself by refering to the to Sixth Floor Sniper rather than putting LHO in the window, but here he is doing it again. This despite the fact that we know Oswald was on the second floor at the time of the assassination, as he was seen by the police officer through the door window in the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

As the Secret Service reenactment shows, being in that spot at that time indicates LHO entered the vestibule throught he south door, not the west door to the lunchroom, and therefore didn't decend the steps from the Sixth Floor. Thus exonerated as the Sixth Floor Sniper, and a patsy for a crime he didn't comit.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

And then, of course, in his mind, LHO, the Sixth Floor Sniper, isn't really the world's greatest assassin, a covert operative who used aliases, codes, ciphers and intelligence tradecraft, and not only succeeded in hitting his target three times, but got away clean from the scene.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

BK

[John Simkin]

People who think the U.S. government was complicit in 9/11 or in the JFK assassination sometimes complain that those who dismiss them as “conspiracy theorists” are guilty of inconsistency. For don’t the defenders of the “official story” behind 9/11 themselves believe in a conspiracy, namely one masterminded by Osama bin Laden? Don’t they acknowledge the existence of conspiracies like Watergate, as well as everyday garden variety criminal conspiracies?

The objection is superficial. Critics of the best known “conspiracy theories” don’t deny the possibility of conspiracies per se. Rather they deny the possibility, or at least the plausibility, of conspiracies of the scale of those posited by 9/11 and JFK assassination skeptics. One reason for this has to do with considerations about the nature of modern bureaucracies, especially governmental ones. They are notoriously sclerotic and risk-averse, structurally incapable of implementing any decision without reams of paperwork and committee oversight, and dominated by ass-covering careerists concerned above all with job security. The personnel who comprise them largely preexist and outlast the particular administrations that are voted in and out every few years, and have interests and attitudes that often conflict with those of the politicians they temporarily serve. Like the rest of society, they are staffed by individuals with wildly divergent worldviews that are difficult to harmonize. The lack of market incentives and the power of public employee unions make them extremely inefficient. And so forth. All of this makes the chances of organizing diverse reaches of the bureaucracy (just the right set of people spread across the Army, the Air Force, the FBI, the CIA, the FAA, etc. – not to mention within private firms having their own bureaucracies and diversity of corporate and individual interests) in a short period of time (e.g. the months between Bush’s inauguration and 9/11) to carry out a plot and cover-up of such staggering complexity, close to nil.

It is a myth that is often repeated, that in a modern democratic society with a free press it is impossible to keep a political conspiracy secret. There was a C4 documentary on last night that showed in some detail how such a conspiracy can be covered-up.

In 1963 Michael Thornton, a journalist working for the Sunday Express, heard rumours that Lord Boothby, a former member of the Conservative government, was having a homosexual relationship with Ronnie Kray, the leader of one of the most notorious criminal gangs in London. Thornton became friendly with Boothby and even attended the sex parties organized by Kray. He discovered that Boothby was introducing Kray to upper-class homosexuals whereas Kray was providing Boothby with working-class rent boys. At the time, homosexuality was illegal in the UK.

Amazingly, Boothby was also having an affair with Dorothy Macmillan, wife of his fellow Conservative politician and Prime Minister Harold Macmillan. He was also rumoured to be having an affair with the Queen Mother, who described him as "a bounder but not a cad".

On one occasion, Kray used a gun on Thornton in an attempt to have sex with him. Thornton decided that it was now time to write-up the article on the Kray-Boothby relationship. However, the editor of the Sunday Express, a Tory newspaper, refused to publish the story as he thought it would bring down the Conservative government that was still reeling from the Profumo scandal.

Someone, probably Thornton, leaked the story to the Labour supporting Daily Mirror. This included a photograph showing Lord Boothby, Ronnie Kray and Leslie Holt, a rent boy with a criminal record, who had been sleeping with both men. Despite having the necessary evidence, he newspaper editor published the story without naming either Boothby or Kray. Instead, they were described as the “Lord” and the “Crime Boss”. The story also revealed that the two men were being investigated by Scotland Yard as a result of their “illegal relationship” that dated back to the early 1960s. A German magazine did publish the names of the two men but this was not reported in the UK press.

It later emerged that the reason that the men were not named in the Daily Mirror, was the owner, Cecil King, refused permission for the editor to do this. It was argued that the Labour MP, Tom Driberg, was also involved with Ronnie Kray and had also attended these sex parties. To show that Harold Wilson, the leader of the Labour Party, was also committed to keeping this story out of the press, he suggested that his legal advisor, Lord Goodman, should represent Boothby.

Boothby now wrote a letter to The Times and argued that the Daily Mirror had been referring to him and that he intended to sue this newspaper for libel. He claimed that he had only met Kray three times. However, this had been public events in 1964 (there were published photographs of these meetings and so they could not be denied). When the case came to court, the Daily Mirror decided not to reveal the compromising photograph. Unwilling to defend their story, Lord Boothby was awarded £40,000 and the editor of the newspaper was sacked. This resulted in other newspapers not touching the story. Scotland Yard was also ordered to drop their investigation into Boothby and Ronnie Kray.

Ronnie Kray shot and killed George Cornell in the Blind Beggar in Whitechapel on 9th March 1966. The following year, his twin-brother, Reggie Kray, killed Jack McVitie. Scotland Yard was now forced to take action and arrest the two brothers for the murders of Cornell and McVitie. Amazingly, Lord Boothby raised the case in the House of Lords and called for them to be released. This is completely unconstitutional and he was shouted down in the chamber. Later it was revealed that Kray had comprising photographs of Boothby and he was therefore blackmailed into raising the case in the House of Lords.

The Kray brothers were both were sentenced to life imprisonment, with a non-parole period of 30 years for the murders of Cornell and McVitie, the longest sentences ever passed at the Central Criminal Court for murder. Their brother Charlie was jailed for 10 years for his part in the murders.

John Pearson, a freelance journalist, had been working on the case for several years. After their conviction, Ronnie Kray arranged for his mother to pass over documents and photographs showing that Boothby had been having a corrupt relationship with the Krays since the early 1960s. In other words, evidence that supported the story that appeared in the Daily Mirror in 1964. Pearson finished the book on the case and arranged for it to be serialized in the Sunday Observer newspaper. However, the publisher refused to publish the final manuscript and the newspaper cancelled its contract to publish a series of articles by Pearson. Every other publisher and newspaper refused to publish this story.

John Pearson’s book was only published after Lord Boothby died. Even so, the newspapers ignored the book as it revealed how they had all joined forces to stop the truth coming out about the prominent politician and an underworld crime boss.

Pearson recently used the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the Scotland Yard report on the Boothby and Kray relationship. The report revealed that several prominent figures were involved in the cover-up. However, the passage naming these men has been blacked out on the advice of the Attorney General. The reason given is that some of these men are still alive.

The documentary was shown on television last night. Once again, the rest of the media has ignored this story. It is not surprising when you consider how this story reveals how the media is willing to join forces with the political and legal establishment to cover-up corruption in public life.

You can see the programme here:

http://www.channel4.com/catchup-player/pla...amp;episodeId=1

[Charles Drago]

The weakness of Feser's argument was that he lumped these two theories together. Clearly, he did this because he attempting to smear JFK assassination researchers with being 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

Agreed. And so ...

To quote Kevin Costner as Jim Garrison in JFK ...

"Ask the question, ask the question!"

WHY would he do such a thing?

Maybe Evan and Len could explain why?

Evan aside; as far as the latter are concerned, I'm reminded of the comedian's line: "I don't explain 'em, I just tell 'em."

Interesting play with your Knight, though.

I prefer the range of my wandering Bishops.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise.

Can you give me a good explanation of the large exit wound in the back of JFK's head, so that I may rejoin the lone-nut camp, which I forsook in my foolish youth?

Can you give me a good explanation of the large exit wound in the back of JFK's head

Nope!

Since there was no "exit" wound located there, it would be be somewhat akin to chasing the mythological multiple assassins to attempt to explain something which did not exist in the first place.

However!

I long ago, on this forum, explained the reasons as to why JFK had a the severe damage to the top as well as right rear portion of his head. Both of which were created as a result of impact of shots fired from the rear and above.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

BK: And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

Tom: "What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise. And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event."

Yea Ron, I have a problem with that line too. I thought Tom had corrected himself by refering to the to Sixth Floor Sniper rather than putting LHO in the window, but here he is doing it again. This despite the fact that we know Oswald was on the second floor at the time of the assassination, as he was seen by the police officer through the door window in the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

As the Secret Service reenactment shows, being in that spot at that time indicates LHO entered the vestibule throught he south door, not the west door to the lunchroom, and therefore didn't decend the steps from the Sixth Floor. Thus exonerated as the Sixth Floor Sniper, and a patsy for a crime he didn't comit.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

And then, of course, in his mind, LHO, the Sixth Floor Sniper, isn't really the world's greatest assassin, a covert operative who used aliases, codes, ciphers and intelligence tradecraft, and not only succeeded in hitting his target three times, but got away clean from the scene.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

BK

Being somewhat of an "ex-shooter" myself, rest assured that I (or any other shooter I have ever encountered) would not give the misnomer "Sniper" to someone who merely pulled off three relatively easy shots from distances of approximately 180 feet; 267 feet; and 297 feet.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

Actually! I consider "half-wit" jerks to be those who launch into great conspiracy scenario's without having even come to understand the most simple aspects of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts.

While continuation of such comments as to how "we" know certain things.

Let's see now, unless possibly incorrect again, it has been some 45+ years since the assassination.

In recognizing that for two of those years I was somewhat gainfully occupied in the Aisian Continent with little knowledge as to events here at home, please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

1. "Black-Dog" man?

2. "Badge"-man?

3. "Sewer-Drain" man?

4. "Dal-Tex" man?

5. "New Orleans" man?/aka Clay Shaw

6. ________________________(fill in the blank "man"?)*

*Were I of the female persuasion then I would most probably yell "discrimination" as no idiot has of yet dreamed up a female assassin/accomplice. (that I am aware)

OK! How about just positively identified with factual evidence to back up the claim????

Also, were any of those "Body Snatcher/Wound Alteration Specialists" ever caught and brought to trial for there purported fantastic feat of diversion and distraction.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

Assuming by the term "rabbit" it references LHO, then why would anyone want to chase someone who is severely dead and long buried.

Oh! I forgot! There were those of your persuasion who also chased that generally stupid myth and had him dug up also.

"Stupid is as Stupid Does!"

Forest Gump

[J. Raymond Carroll]

please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

6. HAT MAN[/b] ? (seen in Moorman & Nix)

Tom,

How do you explain the fact that JFK was driven backward by the bullet that struck him in the head at Z312-13?

Do you think it was caused by:

a. a neuromuscular reaction

b. a JET EFFECT a la Alvarez

c a combination of a & b

d a bullet from HATMAN's LOCATION

[John Dolva]

Tom : "...no idiot has of yet dreamed up a female assassin/accomplice. (that I am aware)"

Tom, I have.

At least speculated on one, based on a Mrs DeWitte's (KKK)(and associates) testimony at HUAC investigation (in '65 from memory, volume 4, towards the end.)

[William Kelly]

BK: And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

Tom: "What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise. And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event."

Yea Ron, I have a problem with that line too. I thought Tom had corrected himself by refering to the to Sixth Floor Sniper rather than putting LHO in the window, but here he is doing it again. This despite the fact that we know Oswald was on the second floor at the time of the assassination, as he was seen by the police officer through the door window in the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

As the Secret Service reenactment shows, being in that spot at that time indicates LHO entered the vestibule throught he south door, not the west door to the lunchroom, and therefore didn't decend the steps from the Sixth Floor. Thus exonerated as the Sixth Floor Sniper, and a patsy for a crime he didn't comit.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

And then, of course, in his mind, LHO, the Sixth Floor Sniper, isn't really the world's greatest assassin, a covert operative who used aliases, codes, ciphers and intelligence tradecraft, and not only succeeded in hitting his target three times, but got away clean from the scene.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

BK

Being somewhat of an "ex-shooter" myself, rest assured that I (or any other shooter I have ever encountered) would not give the misnomer "Sniper" to someone who merely pulled off three relatively easy shots from distances of approximately 180 feet; 267 feet; and 297 feet.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

Actually! I consider "half-wit" jerks to be those who launch into great conspiracy scenario's without having even come to understand the most simple aspects of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts.

While continuation of such comments as to how "we" know certain things.

Let's see now, unless possibly incorrect again, it has been some 45+ years since the assassination.

In recognizing that for two of those years I was somewhat gainfully occupied in the Aisian Continent with little knowledge as to events here at home, please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

*Were I of the female persuasion then I would most probably yell "discrimination" as no idiot has of yet dreamed up a female assassin/accomplice. (that I am aware)

OK! How about just positively identified with factual evidence to back up the claim????

Also, were any of those "Body Snatcher/Wound Alteration Specialists" ever caught and brought to trial for there purported fantastic feat of diversion and distraction.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

Assuming by the term "rabbit" it references LHO, then why would anyone want to chase someone who is severely dead and long buried.

Oh! I forgot! There were those of your persuasion who also chased that generally stupid myth and had him dug up also.

"Stupid is as Stupid Does!"

Forest Gump

Tom,

You imply that I am unfamiliar with the ballistics of the assassination, and that I have taken up those 1 through 6 - alternative rabbits.

1. "Black-Dog" man?

2. "Badge"-man?

3. "Sewer-Drain" man?

4. "Dal-Tex" man?

5. "New Orleans" man?/aka Clay Shaw

6. ________________________(fill in the blank "man"?)*\

When in fact I am quite ready to accept that one Sixth Floor Sniper - whether you want to call him that or not - he was a sniper - I just recognize for a fact that it was not Lee Harvey Oswald - whoever it was.

You are the one who insists that this sniper was not a real good, well trained and operational killer, but a girlscout or wifebeater.

I say, whoever he was, succeeded in hitting his target, killing JFK and changing the leadership and government of the USA.

You say it was all just like a high school prank.

And indeed, Mrs. Paine was a female accomplice, whether witting or not, and Ian Fleming has a Russian sniper assassin featured in one of his short stories (View to a Kill) based on a number of real Russian women snipers of the Easter front during WWII.

I don't mind keeping what happened simple, I just don't your portrayal of the assassin as a nitwit.

And thanks to you and Oswald for being veterans in service to your country.

BK

[Ron Ecker]

there was no "exit" wound located there . . . I long ago, on this forum, explained the reasons as to why JFK had a the severe damage to the top as well as right rear portion of his head. Both of which were created as a result of impact of shots fired from the rear and above.

Thanks. No need to repeat such trivia.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

BK: And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

Tom: "What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise. And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event."

Yea Ron, I have a problem with that line too. I thought Tom had corrected himself by refering to the to Sixth Floor Sniper rather than putting LHO in the window, but here he is doing it again. This despite the fact that we know Oswald was on the second floor at the time of the assassination, as he was seen by the police officer through the door window in the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

As the Secret Service reenactment shows, being in that spot at that time indicates LHO entered the vestibule throught he south door, not the west door to the lunchroom, and therefore didn't decend the steps from the Sixth Floor. Thus exonerated as the Sixth Floor Sniper, and a patsy for a crime he didn't comit.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

And then, of course, in his mind, LHO, the Sixth Floor Sniper, isn't really the world's greatest assassin, a covert operative who used aliases, codes, ciphers and intelligence tradecraft, and not only succeeded in hitting his target three times, but got away clean from the scene.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

BK

Being somewhat of an "ex-shooter" myself, rest assured that I (or any other shooter I have ever encountered) would not give the misnomer "Sniper" to someone who merely pulled off three relatively easy shots from distances of approximately 180 feet; 267 feet; and 297 feet.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

Actually! I consider "half-wit" jerks to be those who launch into great conspiracy scenario's without having even come to understand the most simple aspects of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts.

While continuation of such comments as to how "we" know certain things.

Let's see now, unless possibly incorrect again, it has been some 45+ years since the assassination.

In recognizing that for two of those years I was somewhat gainfully occupied in the Aisian Continent with little knowledge as to events here at home, please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

*Were I of the female persuasion then I would most probably yell "discrimination" as no idiot has of yet dreamed up a female assassin/accomplice. (that I am aware)

OK! How about just positively identified with factual evidence to back up the claim????

Also, were any of those "Body Snatcher/Wound Alteration Specialists" ever caught and brought to trial for there purported fantastic feat of diversion and distraction.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

Assuming by the term "rabbit" it references LHO, then why would anyone want to chase someone who is severely dead and long buried.

Oh! I forgot! There were those of your persuasion who also chased that generally stupid myth and had him dug up also.

"Stupid is as Stupid Does!"

Forest Gump

Tom,

You imply that I am unfamiliar with the ballistics of the assassination, and that I have taken up those 1 through 6 - alternative rabbits.

1. "Black-Dog" man?

2. "Badge"-man?

3. "Sewer-Drain" man?

4. "Dal-Tex" man?

5. "New Orleans" man?/aka Clay Shaw

6. ________________________(fill in the blank "man"?)*\

When in fact I am quite ready to accept that one Sixth Floor Sniper - whether you want to call him that or not - he was a sniper - I just recognize for a fact that it was not Lee Harvey Oswald - whoever it was.

You are the one who insists that this sniper was not a real good, well trained and operational killer, but a girlscout or wifebeater.

I say, whoever he was, succeeded in hitting his target, killing JFK and changing the leadership and government of the USA.

You say it was all just like a high school prank.

And indeed, Mrs. Paine was a female accomplice, whether witting or not, and Ian Fleming has a Russian sniper assassin featured in one of his short stories (View to a Kill) based on a number of real Russian women snipers of the Easter front during WWII.

I don't mind keeping what happened simple, I just don't your portrayal of the assassin as a nitwit.

And thanks to you and Oswald for being veterans in service to your country.

BK

"You imply that I am unfamiliar with the ballistics of the assassination"

Nope! Stated as an absolute fact. Otherwise you would be aware of the simple fact that three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB and all three shots struck JFK.---End of Story!

"I just don't your portrayal of the assassin as a nitwit."

About the only "nitwit"'s that I am aware of are those who chase mythological beings.

[William Kelly]

BK: And the inability to resolve this crime is slowly coming unraveled as the simple facts are revealed.

Tom: "What part? That LHO was the single/lone shooter, was then, as is now, pretty well cut and dried despite what many would like to preach otherwise. And anyone who has not managed to "unravel" this relatively simple fact, is not likely to resolve too much else in regards to the event."

Yea Ron, I have a problem with that line too. I thought Tom had corrected himself by refering to the to Sixth Floor Sniper rather than putting LHO in the window, but here he is doing it again. This despite the fact that we know Oswald was on the second floor at the time of the assassination, as he was seen by the police officer through the door window in the vestibule of the 2nd floor lunchroom.

As the Secret Service reenactment shows, being in that spot at that time indicates LHO entered the vestibule throught he south door, not the west door to the lunchroom, and therefore didn't decend the steps from the Sixth Floor. Thus exonerated as the Sixth Floor Sniper, and a patsy for a crime he didn't comit.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

And then, of course, in his mind, LHO, the Sixth Floor Sniper, isn't really the world's greatest assassin, a covert operative who used aliases, codes, ciphers and intelligence tradecraft, and not only succeeded in hitting his target three times, but got away clean from the scene.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

BK

Being somewhat of an "ex-shooter" myself, rest assured that I (or any other shooter I have ever encountered) would not give the misnomer "Sniper" to someone who merely pulled off three relatively easy shots from distances of approximately 180 feet; 267 feet; and 297 feet.

Instead, Tom's assassin is the halfwit jerk, who couldn't hold a job, beat his wife and made three shots a girlscout could make with brownie points.

Actually! I consider "half-wit" jerks to be those who launch into great conspiracy scenario's without having even come to understand the most simple aspects of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts.

While continuation of such comments as to how "we" know certain things.

Let's see now, unless possibly incorrect again, it has been some 45+ years since the assassination.

In recognizing that for two of those years I was somewhat gainfully occupied in the Aisian Continent with little knowledge as to events here at home, please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

*Were I of the female persuasion then I would most probably yell "discrimination" as no idiot has of yet dreamed up a female assassin/accomplice. (that I am aware)

OK! How about just positively identified with factual evidence to back up the claim????

Also, were any of those "Body Snatcher/Wound Alteration Specialists" ever caught and brought to trial for there purported fantastic feat of diversion and distraction.

But Tom chases the rabbit, and lets the real Sixth Floor Sniper go unpursued.

Assuming by the term "rabbit" it references LHO, then why would anyone want to chase someone who is severely dead and long buried.

Oh! I forgot! There were those of your persuasion who also chased that generally stupid myth and had him dug up also.

"Stupid is as Stupid Does!"

Forest Gump

Tom,

You imply that I am unfamiliar with the ballistics of the assassination, and that I have taken up those 1 through 6 - alternative rabbits.

1. "Black-Dog" man?

2. "Badge"-man?

3. "Sewer-Drain" man?

4. "Dal-Tex" man?

5. "New Orleans" man?/aka Clay Shaw

6. ________________________(fill in the blank "man"?)*\

When in fact I am quite ready to accept that one Sixth Floor Sniper - whether you want to call him that or not - he was a sniper - I just recognize for a fact that it was not Lee Harvey Oswald - whoever it was.

You are the one who insists that this sniper was not a real good, well trained and operational killer, but a girlscout or wifebeater.

I say, whoever he was, succeeded in hitting his target, killing JFK and changing the leadership and government of the USA.

You say it was all just like a high school prank.

And indeed, Mrs. Paine was a female accomplice, whether witting or not, and Ian Fleming has a Russian sniper assassin featured in one of his short stories (View to a Kill) based on a number of real Russian women snipers of the Easter front during WWII.

I don't mind keeping what happened simple, I just don't your portrayal of the assassin as a nitwit.

And thanks to you and Oswald for being veterans in service to your country.

BK

"You imply that I am unfamiliar with the ballistics of the assassination"

Nope! Stated as an absolute fact. Otherwise you would be aware of the simple fact that three shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB and all three shots struck JFK.---End of Story!

"I just don't your portrayal of the assassin as a nitwit."

About the only "nitwit"'s that I am aware of are those who chase mythological beings.

Tom, I don't have any problem accepting your allegation, which runs contrary to every official and unofficial interpetation of the event, that three shots were fired from Sixth Floor Window by Sniper or Girlscout, and three shots hit.

What I have a problem with is your interpetation of the Sniper/Girlscout as not being a well trained and successful covert operaive and assassin (call him sniper or girlscout I don't care).

Means, Motive and Opportunity are the three basic elements of a homicide, and you don't seem to care what the motive is, and you are married to the idea that your Sixth Floor Girlscout was just a hapless, lucky, spontaneous nut case, when all indications are that whatever happened at Dealey Plaza, it was a well planned and executed covert operation, especially if your assassin or patsy is Lee Harvey Oswald.

There are those who learn more about the assassination every day, and change their perspective of what happend with the accumulation of new information, and there are those who try to deflect the truth, and throw roadblocks down in front of those who ask the serious, answerable questions.

Those who want to learn more and take the inquiry to another level ask and answer the most serious of questions, while those who believe all the necessary questions are already answered, should just go home.

But you don't.

You stick around, and poke fun and keep repeating the same old, tired cleche, JFK was killed by a lone nut assassin by coincidentail circumstances that has no bearing on reality today, and instead of increasing our knowledge of what we know about the assassination, you fail to recognize that the guy you accuse of killing the President was a lot like you.

BK

[Thomas H. Purvis]

please be so kind as to name all of those "Sniper/Assassin's" who have been identified and successfully prosecuted.

Was it:

6. HAT MAN[/b] ? (seen in Moorman & Nix)

Tom,

How do you explain the fact that JFK was driven backward by the bullet that struck him in the head at Z312-13?

Do you think it was caused by:

a. a neuromuscular reaction

b. a JET EFFECT a la Alvarez

c a combination of a & b

d a bullet from HATMAN's LOCATION

Raymond:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

Post #7

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http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?query=...52&ie=UTF-8

http://www.theconspiracy.us/9508/0005.html

Dr. Vincent Di Maio, medical examiner for San Antonio, Tex., is

regarded as one of the nation's leading firearms forensics experts.

Now! Most would consider Dr. DiMaio as a bonafide and certified EXPERT in the field.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_to...high-speed.html

High-speed bullets damage organs in ways different from what we usually think. Here is an extended passage from one of the U.S.’s foremost authorities on the subject, Dr. Vincent J. M. Di Maio, Chief Medical Examiner and Director of the Regional Crime Laboratory, County of Bexar, San Antonio, Texas (from his Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 1985)

"Implications for the physics of JFK’s head shot

Note how the bullet interacts with the head in two stages. In the first stage, the bullet passes rapidly through, leaving an expanding temporary cavity in its wake. The separate events of this first stage are (1) the bullet enters the skull by drilling a small entrance hole; (2) some brain matter is ejected backward out this hole (tail splash); (3) the bullet, beginning to tumble, passes through the brain; and (4) the bullet leaves the skull by blasting a large exit hole. Note how each of these four events transfers forward momentum from the bullet to the head (the first movement of the head).

In the second stage (after the bullet has left the skull), brain matter continues moving radially outward from the path of the bullet until the head bursts from the accumulated pressure, which can reach 100 to 200 atmospheres. Brain matter is ejected out all available openings, the largest of which will usually be the exit wound or an expanded version of it, with its size depending on how large the internal pressures became. As brain matter is ejected through the enlarged exit wound, it exerts a recoil force in the opposite direction, or backward. If this force is strong enough relative to other forces being experienced by the head at that time (which is well after the hit), the head may actually move backward (the so-called "jet effect"). If the recoil force is small relative to those other forces (such as neuromuscular reactions), the head may more in some other direction, with its motion being only modified by the jet effect.

Thus we expect a bursting head to show at least two separate movements. The first must be in the direction of the bullet, the second probably opposite to it. (Specifics of any movements beyond the first are difficult or impossible to predict, however.) In fact, JFK’s head did move twice—first briefly forward (the "snap"), then backward (the "lurch"). The quick forward motion proves that the killing shot came from the rear. The rearward motion was likely some combination of jet effect and a neuromuscular stiffening of the back muscles, which together straightened him up and threw him backward.

Could the rearward lurch have been the result of a second bullet, from the front, as implied in JFK? No, for several reasons: (1) There was only one set of wounds to the head, a tiny entrance wound in the rear and a larger exit wound on the right side/rear. (2) There is only one pattern of lead fragments in the head—a cone fanning out from the rear entrance wound to the side exit wound. (3) There was no second diffuse cloud of tissue and large fragments, as created by the first hit. (4) There was no damage to the left hemisphere of JFK’s brain, as would be required by a shot coming from the knoll, which was really to JFK’s right rather than to his front. (5) The rearward lurch was an entirely different kind of movement from the forward snap. The lurch began in the right shoulder and arm and involved the head only later. It did not look at all like the snap. (6) Because the lurch involved the whole upper torso, it required more energy than the snap. Many weapons did not have enough energy. Thus JFK’s head was hit by only one bullet, from the rear."

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Certainly would appear that this guy knows what he is speaking of.

At least to me!

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Although I completely disagree with "Thus JFK’s head was hit by only one bullet, from the rear.", by the time of Z314, this was the truth. Had a little further evaluation gone into the understanding of the forensic and pathological evidence, (as opposed to the limited scope of review of the autopsy surgeons findings), to include evaluation of witness testimonies and SS as well as FBI evidence, then perhaps Dr. DiMaio just may have a slightly different opinion in regards to that statement.

In regards to the "head snap", one would be somewhat foolish to contest what one of the US's (if not the world's) formost forensic pathologists has to say in regards to the mechanics of how and why the head snap/backwards thrust was created as well as why it was so violent.

So! Exactly why would one continue to listen to psuedo-scientists when truly qualified experts have expounded considerably on the subject matter?