Why Tink and I love Jim and Jack

[Pat Speer]

In his initial appearance, Newman said UP ON THE GRASSY NOLL, not MALL. Your ear is not attuned to Texas talk.

Jack

Not true, Jack. Here is the interview. At 1:43 he says MALL.

Newman interview on WFAA

And here is his testimony in the mock trial, where he makes perfectly clear that he thought the shots came from the back of the arcade, by the MALL.

Newman and the bug

[Dean Hagerman]

In his initial appearance, Newman said UP ON THE GRASSY NOLL, not MALL. Your ear is not attuned to Texas talk.

Jack

Not true, Jack. Here is the interview. At 1:43 he says MALL.

Newman interview on WFAA

And here is his testimony in the mock trial, where he makes perfectly clear that he thought the shots came from the back of the arcade, by the MALL.

Newman and the bug

Listen to what Newman says at 1:17 in the Youtube clip you posted Pat of Newman in "On Trial Lee Harvey Oswald"

He says in a Texas drawl "Grassy Knoll"

Edited January 12, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Pat Speer]

In his initial appearance, Newman said UP ON THE GRASSY NOLL, not MALL. Your ear is not attuned to Texas talk.

Jack

Not true, Jack. Here is the interview. At 1:43 he says MALL.

Newman interview on WFAA

And here is his testimony in the mock trial, where he makes perfectly clear that he thought the shots came from the back of the arcade, by the MALL.

Newman and the bug

Listen to what Newman says at 1:17 in the Youtube clip you posted Pat of Newman in "On Trial Lee Harvey Oswald"

He says in a Texas drawl "Grassy Knoll"

Good point, Dean. And he says knoll as if it rhymes with bowl and not knoll as if it rhymes with mall.

Which brings me back to my original question. Since 1) Newman refused to say a shot came from the fence, from where Jack and other alterationists assume the shots were fired, and 2) consistently described the head wounds in a manner consistent with the autopsy photos and Zapruder film, and inconsistent with the alterationist position there was but a small entrance wound near the temple and a large blow out on the back of the head, and 3) was the first one to describe the impact of the shots on television, thereby setting people up to believe the head wounds in the Zapruder film when finally presented to the public, shouldn't the alterationist crowd assume that, he, too, was part of the conspiracy?

Or does common sense prevail in this insistence? I mean, Newman never said he saw an impact on the back of Kennedy's head, which weakens the official position a bullet hit JFK on the back of his head at frame 313. And he also said he thought the shots came from somewhere other than the TSBD. This makes him, in the big picture, a conspiracy witness.

But so is Zapruder. Zapruder said he wasn't sure if the last shot was one or two--which supports the conclusion of most nearby witnesses there were two bam-bam. He also said he thought the shots came from behind. He also, as Newman before him, went on television and described a wound on the front of Kennedy's head, but no impact on the back of his head. This makes him, in the big picture, a conspiracy witness, even if he later embraced the "official" story.

So why would a member of a conspiracy say things suggesting there was a conspiracy? To throw people off his trail? Who, exactly, suspected Zapruder of any wrongdoing in the aftermath of the assassination?

Newman was not part of the conspiracy, and neither was Zapruder.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Pat Speer

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Thanks to Gary Mack for this email:

Not only has Bill been interviewed at the scene and pointed to exactly where he meant, he has also described the location in more detail. He points in the general area of Zapruder and a little to the right and left, but not the fence or the TSBD.

The mall is the wide open area between the two ends of the pergola. In fact, that is one of the official dictionary definitions of mall:

a large area, usually lined with shade trees and shrubbery, used as a public walk or promenade.

[Dean Hagerman]

Thanks to Gary Mack for this email:

Not only has Bill been interviewed at the scene and pointed to exactly where he meant, he has also described the location in more detail. He points in the general area of Zapruder and a little to the right and left, but not the fence or the TSBD.

The mall is the wide open area between the two ends of the pergola. In fact, that is one of the official dictionary definitions of mall:

a large area, usually lined with shade trees and shrubbery, used as a public walk or promenade.

So now your Garys mouthpiece Ray?

Why didnt he post that info himself? What would that small comment have done to mess with his position at the 6th Floor?

[Jack White]

Bill Newman is not a dictionary type of person. Like most Texans he thinks a MALL is a shopping center.

In the video he referred to a GRASSY NOLL...not a grassy mall. Only in England is a grassy area called a MALL.

Newman talks like a Texan, not a Limey.

Jack

[Pat Speer]

Bill Newman is not a dictionary type of person. Like most Texans he thinks a MALL is a shopping center.

In the video he referred to a GRASSY NOLL...not a grassy mall. Only in England is a grassy area called a MALL.

Newman talks like a Texan, not a Limey.

Jack

If you watch the video at the link previously provided, you will hear that he doesn't say the words "grassy mall" or "grassy knoll". He doesn't say "grassy" at all. He says, quite clearly, "mall". As pointed out by Dean, this becomes even more clear when you hear his pronunciation of "knoll" during his mock trial testimony.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

So now your Garys mouthpiece Ray?

And so are you, Dean. You just posted Gary's email too, in case anyone missed it when I posted it. What's your excuse? (see thread on USING THE FORUM).

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Pat, I have a close up of the blow-out to the back of the head that I would

like you to consider at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/, where

you can download Chapter 30. You will find Mantik's "Area P" (for "Patch")

beside it and you can compare the shape and size of the wound. It is at

the back of the head and somewhat to the right. Please do this so that we

can be talking about the same image. You were looks at one that was not

a close up. Meanwhile, I will comment on the images in one of your posts.

Thanks, Jack. This is a point worth clarifying. In the Ida Dox drawing and

photograph for the HSCA, a bone flap is visible. Tom Robinson described it

his interview with Joe West. I have asked David Mantik about it and he has

confirmed that there was such a skull flap. It appears to have been blown

open when the frangible bullet exploded and then closed back up. That is

my best explanation for the reports by the Newmans and others that the

side of his face was blown open. It apparently was--but only momentarily.

As for the "blob", I have been using that term to designate the painted-in

image of brains being blown out to the right-front. I agree completely it

is not just an artifact but a fabrication that was painted into the film as

part of a mutually reinforcing deception involving (a) the painted "blob",

( the missing mass on the right-front of the X-rays, © the caption in

LIFE accompanying frame 313, and (d) Zapruder's appearance on TV in

which he put his right hand to his right forehead to illustrate a blow out

that, in fact, did not occur, which we know from many different sources.

In some frames, of course, there is a white object in the backgroun that

seems to be blowing in the wind. I think you have speculated it might be

a piece of paper from the backing of one of Mary's Polaroids, but whatever

it is, it is distinct from and not a part of the fabrication of the fiim--unless,

by inadvertence, it was introduced there. So I want to be sure that we do

not confound the real "blob" (by whatever color) with this floating "blob",

which, unlike the real (that is, painted in) "blob", has no intrinsic interest.

Jim and I seem to have a slight disagreement about what constitutes THE BLOB.

I think I can take credit for the name, since I first started using it in slide lectures

in the 1980s, using Groden Z slide frames. Groden's slides showed it as a WHITE

"blob" on the right side of JFK's head which changed size and shape from frame

to frame. I referred to the artifact as "the blob".

I have always contended that there was NO BLOWOUT OF THE RIGHT TEMPLE

and that the blob was painted in.

Jim has now said that "the blob" is brains bulging out, but he agrees that the

"white thing" represents the "bone flap". I think that the bone flap was created

by the SURGERY TO THE SKULL of Lifton and Horne...at a later time than Dealey

Plaza. Even if the Z film were real, there would be no BONE FLAP, since IT DID

NOT OCCUR IN THE PLAZA. Since I believe that the blob is one of the artifacts

of alteration, I do not understand Jim saying it is some sort of real effect. Or

perhaps I have misunderstood him.

I believe, as I have since the 1980s, that ANY DEFECT of the right temple is

an alteration and does not represent a bone flap OR brains bulging out.

Perhaps Jim can clarify or reconcile our differing opinions.

Jack

I'm still a bit confused. Is what I take to be a bone flap in 323 what Jack calls the blob, but not what you call the blob? If so, where is what you call the blob in 323? Or is it not visible in this frame?

I looked at Z-374, by the way. While the back of the head is quite dark, there is a lighter area on the right side. It looks whitish and not reddish, however. As a result, it might just be the glare of the sun on JFK's hair or some such thing. There is, however, one red patch down near the base of the skull. This might lend support for the EOP entrance observed at autopsy. In any event, I agree this frame should be closely studied, and brought to the attention of the Hollywood group for comparison with the earlier frames.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

If you will take a look at the close up of 374 in my chapter found at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/,

then I think we can have a better informed discussion from both of our points of view. The flap is there, too, but

the massive blow-out to the back of the head, which has a bluish-grey cast to it, can be easily discerned. Thanks.

P.S. I am surprise you are still using the Gorden color-photos, which, as I have explained, are fakes. The hair is

long and stringy and massively matted. How can you possibly believe that the top row, second and third are

of the same subject during the same autopsy, unless he was given an shampoo and a haircut as it happened?

Fascinating Pat. Can one follow the opening in JFK's skull over several frames and, as it were, plot the process of skull opening? Looking a bit later, say subsequent to Z 330, do you find the appearance of the skull wound significantly different than it appears at say Z 321 or Z323? I ask this because it is possible that JFK was hit in the skull from behind in the interval. What do you think?

Josiah Thompson

There are other inconsistencies that are internal to the frames of the film that show the "blob" is an artifact and that the back of the head has been painted over in black. I have already pointed out that frame 374, for example, shows the blow-out to the back of the head and the skull flap that Tom Robinson described. And, when frames 456 and 466 are viewed in the 6k version, a wound behind the right ear is visible, but no large blow-out of the right-front. That is a perfect example of how experiments like this one can reveal details that are not obvious without gaining greater access to its contents, as the 6k has done. And, as Doug has explained, the absence of the large frontal wound in these frames -- even apart from Jackie's testimony, the medical evidence, and more than 40 witnesses reports -- is an additional proof that the large frontal wound seen in frames 314 through 327 is a fabrication. It can't be present in those frames but missing from later ones. The beauty of these proofs is that they are simple and direct -- and have been confirmed by eight experts on film and David Mantik, too!

Wait. I thought the eight experts said they thought the back of the head had been painted in. Now you have them agreeing with your opinion there's a blow-out on the back of the head in 374 that isn't seen earlier, etc. Is there a list of all their findings? Can you post a quality version of 374 showing this blow-out?

And, I hesitate to ask, can you post an image of the "blob"? I assumed your references to the "blob" were to the orange blob in the degraded versions of Z-313. Now Jack says it's a white blob. Is it seen in the frame below?

Because I don't see a "blob"; I see the underside of a piece of skull broken and flipped forward and still hanging by a thread of scalp on the side of Kennedy's head. The shape of this skull fragment, moreover, matches precisely the shape of the fragment shown in the right lateral autopsy photo.

From patspeer.com chapter 18:

Another aspect of the medical evidence which has convinced many of fakery or deception is the “wing” of bone visible in the autopsy photos. It seemed to move from photo to photo and change shape. After much thought, however, I developed an explanation for these changes.

When one looks at the Zapruder film, one can’t help but notice the large opening on Kennedy’s skull apparent in the frames after 313. This opening appears to begin just in front of his ear. When one looks at the right lateral autopsy photo one sees exposed bone behind his ear, however, and in a location where there was reportedly no missing bone or scalp. This is a clear indication that this bone was dislodged from someplace else. And yet it’s still attached to scalp. After some consideration I realized that when the scalp exploded downwards in frame 313 the skull bones that were attached to the scalp were suddenly upside down, and began to peel away from the scalp from the bottom (which was formally the top) down. The large fragment found on the floor of the limo by Sam Kinney peeled all the way and fell to the floor. It can be seen flying downwards in the frames after 313. A section of bone lower down on Kennedy’s skull, possibly including his sphenoid bone, didn’t finish peeling away from the scalp, however. It was left dangling by a thread. The shape of this bone can be seen in shadow in frame 323. When Jackie Kennedy tried to close her husband’s head wound, she failed to flip this “wing” of bone back around to match up with the scalp, and left this “wing” dangling back behind Kennedy’s ear. This is apparent in the right almost-lateral autopsy photo. Not surprisingly, the shape of this wing matches the shape of the shadow in frame 323.

When one looks at the back of the head photo, obviously taken a few minutes later, as Kennedy is now lying on his side, one can see that the “wing” of bone has suddenly changed. It is now far forward of the ear and of different proportions. I believe this is because it’s no longer a “wing” of bone, but a “wing” of scalp, the stubborn scalp that held the wing in place for so long. The dimensions of this scalp flap can be seen in frame 337. Possibly the wing fell off when the doctors moved Kennedy onto his side or possibly they removed it deliberately to better observe the large defect.

I just took a look at the Image of an Assassination DVD Close-up Frames in slow mo. From this it seems likely the "white blob" noted by Fetzer is the skull flap dangling by a strand of flesh, bouncing around on the side of Kennedy's head in the aftermath of the bullet's impact. I didn't see any indication of another shot impacting on the skull, although JFK's head does move around quite a bit as he falls to the floor of the limo, and a number of the frames are blurred. As a result, I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

Edited January 13, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Pat, Two wounds were widely described on radio and television the afternoon

and evening of the assassination: the small entry would to the throat, which

Malcolm Perry had described three times as a wound of entry ("It was coming

at him") during the Parkland Press Conference, a transcript of which you can

find as an appendix to ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), where others, such

and Bob Livingston and Richard Dudman, wrote about it and Tom Wicker had

it in his New York Times cover story, an extract of which I also included there;

and the blow-out to the back of head, described as having occurred by a shot

that passed through his head: "It entered his right temple," said Chet Huntley

on NBC, "It was a simple matter of a bullet through the head" and attributed

this description to Admire George Burkley, the president's personal physician.

Now, as I look at the photos you have here, the first two in the first row have

Bill Newman pointing to where the bullet entered his head at the right temple.

You have Acting Press Secretary Malcom Kilduff pointing to his right temple and

saying that it was a bullet right through the head. These are no doubt two of

the sources for the reports on radio and television. Across the bottom row of

images, you have the McClelland diagram of a massive-blow out to the rear.

And you have fourteen doctors, nurses, medical technicians and others holding

their hand over the back of there heads where they observed the blow-out of

the kind McClelland had had drawn at the back of their head. Then, moving to

the second row, you have Newman putting his hand IN THE SAME POSITION.

Don't you see that the obvious interpretation is that Newman agrees with them?

P.S. I am leaving the skull-flap issue and--what should already be apparent--

that Zapruder is not holding his hand at the same location but appears to

be describing a blow-out to the right front that, we know, did not occur,

until you download my chapter so you can view the close up of 374 and

see what I'm talking about at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. However, I still maintain that there

was no massive blowout (BLOB) of the right temple in Dealey Plaza.

The bulging brain and bone fragment flap WERE ARTIFACTS OF THE

SURGERY OF THE HEAD AREA PERFORMED BY HUMES, ACCORDING

TO HORNE IN VOLUME IV. I believe there was a small bullet hole in

the hairline of the right temple which caused the massive occipital

blowout, but it did not cause a frontal blowout.

Thanks.

Jack

PS. It is confusing to refer to the piece of paper as a blob. It is

clearly a piece of paper and has nothing to do with the head wounds.

So, Jack, to be clear, do you believe Newman was simply mistaken when he described the wound location on TV minutes after the shooting, and depicted it in front of JFK's ear? Or do you think he was part of the plot?

And what about Zapruder, who confirmed Newman's impression? Was his confirmation of the wound location presented by Newman a coincidence? Or did the plotters, including Zapruder, just get lucky when Newman was rushed onto TV and asked to describe the large head wound's location, only to have him mistakenly place it in the exact location they'd planned on creating a fake wound?

I have talked to Bill Newman many times. HE NEVER DESCRIBED A BLOWOUT TO THE FRONT.

Instead he talked of a bullet to the temple and blood. He said that the force of the bullet hitting

the temple DROVE THE PRESIDENT BACKWARD* AS IF HIS HEAD HAD BEEN HIT BY A BASEBALL BAT.

He never mentioned any blowout to the front or white bone flap (blob). Have YOU talked to Newman?

What did he tell you?

Jack

*He said the backward movement of the head was what made him think that the head shot

came from "the garden up there by the monument, the grassy noll". Newman was the first person

to refer to the GRASSY KNOLL, even though he mispronounced it n-o-l-l, rhyming with doll.

Wrong, Jack. Newman and his wife saw a large wound on the side of Kennedy's head, not a small entrance hole that could possibly be missed at Parkland. Not only did they never mention seeing a blow out wound on the back of JFK's head, Newman eventually said he thought he thought the bullet striking JFK blew his right ear off. It follows then that he was not describing a little round hole in the hairline.

William Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street with his wife and two kids and can be seen in the Muchmore film. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of the President's death, at approximately 12:45) “We were, we just come from Love Field after seeing the President and First Lady, and we were just in front of the triple underpass on Elm Street at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President. (After being asked to clarify his position) We were halfway in between the triple underpass. We were at the curb when this incident happened. But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” (When asked if he thought the first shot came form the same location) "I think it came from the same location apparently back up on the mall, whatchacallit." (When asked if he thought the shot came from the viaduct) "Yes, sir, no, no, not on the viaduct itself but up on top of the hill, on the mound, of ground, in the garden." (When asked from how far away the shots were fired) "I have no idea. I didn't see where the gunshots come from. I believe we was looking directly at the President when he was hit. He was more or less directly in front of us. We didn't realize what happened until we seen the side of his head, when the bullet hit him. (When asked if he saw blood) "Yes sir, we seen it. I seen it" (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 1:00 PM) (When asked if he felt the shots came from different directions) "No sir, actually I feel that they both come from directly behind where we were standing. The President, it looked like he was looking in that direction. I don't know whether he was hit first. Apparently he wasn't. It looked like he jumped up in his seat, and when he jumped up he was shot directly in his head. I don't know whatchacallit--the mall behind us--but apparently (interviewer Bill Lord finishing his thought) "that's where he was." (11-22-63 third interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:10 PM) “My wife and my two sons were standing at the curb, looking at the President approaching us, when we heard a blast. And the President looked like that he right jumped up in his seat, and by that time he was directly in front of us. And then he......we seen him get shot in the side of the head. He fell back in the seat and Governor Connally was holding his stomach." (When asked if the shots were almost simultaneous) "Yes sir, they were probably 10 seconds apart." (When asked if he heard a third shot) "I didn't hear a third...I don't recall a third shot. There may have been. We hit...my family hit the ground. I don't recall a third shot. I just couldn't...I'm not certain of that. I do know I heard two shots." (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H219) “We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “when the President’s car was approximately 50 feet from him proceeding in a westerly direction on Elm Street, he heard the first shots fired...the shots were fired in rapid succession which he thought at the time was a firecracker. The car was proceeding toward him and it seemed that the President’s arms went up and that he raised up in his seat and started to look around. The car proceeded to a point about even with him and he could see Governor John Connally was holding his stomach. About that time another shot was fired which he estimated was ten seconds after the first shot was fired. At that time he heard the bullet strike the president and saw flesh fly from the President’s head… Newman first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game.” (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “In my opinion the ear went…My thoughts were that the shot entered there and apparently the thoughts of the Warren Commission were that the shot came out that side.” (2-17-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off…I observed his ear flying off, and he turned just real white and then blood red, and the President, when the third shot hit him he just went stiff like a board and fell over to his left in his wife's lap, and I told my wife, "That is it, hit the ground," and that is when we hit the ground because I thought the shots were coming over our heads. And then I looked back and I saw Mrs. Kennedy jumping up on the back end of the car…”

Frances Gayle Newman: (11-22-63 first interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 12:45) (When asked if she saw the blood) "Yes sir, it was awful." (When asked what her first thought was after the shots were fired) "I thought it was a firecracker and I saw the blood and I.....I had the baby and I .....I just ran and we....I got on top of him and laid on the grass. I....I was....it scared me. It was terrible." (When asked what else she saw) "Governor Connally was kinda turned to the side and he grabbed his stomach." (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out. And my husband said “Quick, get down” and I grabbed the baby and we ran and laid down on the grass and I got on top of him. It was just right by us when it all happened, just right in front of us." (When asked if she saw anybody) "It happened so fast that you didn't have the chance to see anything. It was just too fast.” (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car. When I first saw and heard all this, I thought it was all of a joke. Just about the time President Kennedy was in front of us, I heard another shot ring out and the President put his hands up to his head, I saw blood all over the side of his head. About this time, Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and he kind of lay over to the side kind of in her arms. Then my husband, Billy, said it is a shot. We grabbed our two children and my husband lay on one child and I lay on the other one on the grass. We started to get up and then all of a sudden we lay back down. I don’t know what it was but another shot may have been fired that caused us to lay back down.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “She estimated that when the limousine bearing the President was about 50 feet from them she heard 2 reports and the President seemed to rise up in his seat. A few seconds later she heard another shot and saw that the President had been hit in the head because she saw blood flowing from his body. She believed there were first two shots in succession, a pause, then another shot was fired which struck the President… After the shots were fired, she and her husband each grabbed a child and lay down on the grass fearing they might be hit by gunfire.” (2-15-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “The President's car was maybe 100 or 150 feet from us when I first heard the noise and the first two noises were close together, just seconds apart…at the time of the first noise he threw his hands up…He threw his hands up like this and sort of turned his head… I saw Governor Connally with the first shot seemed to turn a little bit like this. (Indicating.)… at the time of the second shot Governor Connally grabbed his stomach…his eyes just got real big and he sort of slumped down in the seat…we heard a third report, it was a short time, not maybe 10 or 12 seconds after the first two shots…that shot when it happened, the President's car was directly in front of us and it was about a lane's width between us, it wasn't in the lane next to the curb it was in the middle lane, and at that time he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear…The President, his head just seemed to explode, just bits of his skull flew in the air and he fell to the side.”

See?? No description of a large blow out on the back of JFK's head... Just a large wound on the side of his head.

So...I ask once again. Is it just a coincidence that Newman described the wound in the same manner as Zapruder?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack, Could you please go to http://www.und.edu/org/jfkconference/ down-

load my chapter and post the four or so sections leading up to and including

frame 374? That includes David Mantik's identification of "Area P". What I'm

looking for appears on pages 359 and 360. That should do it. Many thanks!

Pat, Two wounds were widely described on radio and television the afternoon

and evening of the assassination: the small entry would to the throat, which

Malcolm Perry had described three times as a wound of entry ("It was coming

at him") during the Parkland Press Conference, a transcript of which you can

find as an appendix to ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), where others, such

and Bob Livingston and Richard Dudman, wrote about it and Tom Wicker had

it in his New York Times cover story, an extract of which I also included there;

and the blow-out to the back of head, described as having occurred by a shot

that passed through his head: "It entered his right temple," said Chet Huntley

on NBC, "It was a simple matter of a bullet through the head" and attributed

this description to Admire George Burkley, the president's personal physician.

Now, as I look at the photos you have here, the first two in the first row have

Bill Newman pointing to where the bullet entered his head at the right temple.

You have Acting Press Secretary Malcom Kilduff pointing to his right temple and

saying that it was a bullet right through the head. These are no doubt two of

the sources for the reports on radio and television. Across the bottom row of

images, you have the McClelland diagram of a massive-blow out to the rear.

And you have fourteen doctors, nurses, medical technicians and others holding

their hand over the back of there heads where they observed the blow-out of

the kind McClelland had had drawn at the back of their head. Then, moving to

the second row, you have Newman putting his hand IN THE SAME POSITION.

Don't you see that the obvious interpretation is that Newman agrees with them?

P.S. I am leaving the skull-flap issue and--what should already be apparent--

that Zapruder is not holding his hand at the same location but appears to

be describing a blow-out to the right front that, we know, did not occur,

until you download my chapter so you can view the close up of 374 and

see what I'm talking about at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. However, I still maintain that there

was no massive blowout (BLOB) of the right temple in Dealey Plaza.

The bulging brain and bone fragment flap WERE ARTIFACTS OF THE

SURGERY OF THE HEAD AREA PERFORMED BY HUMES, ACCORDING

TO HORNE IN VOLUME IV. I believe there was a small bullet hole in

the hairline of the right temple which caused the massive occipital

blowout, but it did not cause a frontal blowout.

Thanks.

Jack

PS. It is confusing to refer to the piece of paper as a blob. It is

clearly a piece of paper and has nothing to do with the head wounds.

So, Jack, to be clear, do you believe Newman was simply mistaken when he described the wound location on TV minutes after the shooting, and depicted it in front of JFK's ear? Or do you think he was part of the plot?

And what about Zapruder, who confirmed Newman's impression? Was his confirmation of the wound location presented by Newman a coincidence? Or did the plotters, including Zapruder, just get lucky when Newman was rushed onto TV and asked to describe the large head wound's location, only to have him mistakenly place it in the exact location they'd planned on creating a fake wound?

I have talked to Bill Newman many times. HE NEVER DESCRIBED A BLOWOUT TO THE FRONT.

Instead he talked of a bullet to the temple and blood. He said that the force of the bullet hitting

the temple DROVE THE PRESIDENT BACKWARD* AS IF HIS HEAD HAD BEEN HIT BY A BASEBALL BAT.

He never mentioned any blowout to the front or white bone flap (blob). Have YOU talked to Newman?

What did he tell you?

Jack

*He said the backward movement of the head was what made him think that the head shot

came from "the garden up there by the monument, the grassy noll". Newman was the first person

to refer to the GRASSY KNOLL, even though he mispronounced it n-o-l-l, rhyming with doll.

Wrong, Jack. Newman and his wife saw a large wound on the side of Kennedy's head, not a small entrance hole that could possibly be missed at Parkland. Not only did they never mention seeing a blow out wound on the back of JFK's head, Newman eventually said he thought he thought the bullet striking JFK blew his right ear off. It follows then that he was not describing a little round hole in the hairline.

William Newman was standing on the north side of Elm Street with his wife and two kids and can be seen in the Muchmore film. (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of the President's death, at approximately 12:45) “We were, we just come from Love Field after seeing the President and First Lady, and we were just in front of the triple underpass on Elm Street at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President. (After being asked to clarify his position) We were halfway in between the triple underpass. We were at the curb when this incident happened. But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” (When asked if he thought the first shot came form the same location) "I think it came from the same location apparently back up on the mall, whatchacallit." (When asked if he thought the shot came from the viaduct) "Yes, sir, no, no, not on the viaduct itself but up on top of the hill, on the mound, of ground, in the garden." (When asked from how far away the shots were fired) "I have no idea. I didn't see where the gunshots come from. I believe we was looking directly at the President when he was hit. He was more or less directly in front of us. We didn't realize what happened until we seen the side of his head, when the bullet hit him. (When asked if he saw blood) "Yes sir, we seen it. I seen it" (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 1:00 PM) (When asked if he felt the shots came from different directions) "No sir, actually I feel that they both come from directly behind where we were standing. The President, it looked like he was looking in that direction. I don't know whether he was hit first. Apparently he wasn't. It looked like he jumped up in his seat, and when he jumped up he was shot directly in his head. I don't know whatchacallit--the mall behind us--but apparently (interviewer Bill Lord finishing his thought) "that's where he was." (11-22-63 third interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:10 PM) “My wife and my two sons were standing at the curb, looking at the President approaching us, when we heard a blast. And the President looked like that he right jumped up in his seat, and by that time he was directly in front of us. And then he......we seen him get shot in the side of the head. He fell back in the seat and Governor Connally was holding his stomach." (When asked if the shots were almost simultaneous) "Yes sir, they were probably 10 seconds apart." (When asked if he heard a third shot) "I didn't hear a third...I don't recall a third shot. There may have been. We hit...my family hit the ground. I don't recall a third shot. I just couldn't...I'm not certain of that. I do know I heard two shots." (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H219) “We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “when the President’s car was approximately 50 feet from him proceeding in a westerly direction on Elm Street, he heard the first shots fired...the shots were fired in rapid succession which he thought at the time was a firecracker. The car was proceeding toward him and it seemed that the President’s arms went up and that he raised up in his seat and started to look around. The car proceeded to a point about even with him and he could see Governor John Connally was holding his stomach. About that time another shot was fired which he estimated was ten seconds after the first shot was fired. At that time he heard the bullet strike the president and saw flesh fly from the President’s head… Newman first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game.” (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “In my opinion the ear went…My thoughts were that the shot entered there and apparently the thoughts of the Warren Commission were that the shot came out that side.” (2-17-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off…I observed his ear flying off, and he turned just real white and then blood red, and the President, when the third shot hit him he just went stiff like a board and fell over to his left in his wife's lap, and I told my wife, "That is it, hit the ground," and that is when we hit the ground because I thought the shots were coming over our heads. And then I looked back and I saw Mrs. Kennedy jumping up on the back end of the car…”

Frances Gayle Newman: (11-22-63 first interview on WFAA, prior to the announcement of Kennedy's death, at approximately 12:45) (When asked if she saw the blood) "Yes sir, it was awful." (When asked what her first thought was after the shots were fired) "I thought it was a firecracker and I saw the blood and I.....I had the baby and I .....I just ran and we....I got on top of him and laid on the grass. I....I was....it scared me. It was terrible." (When asked what else she saw) "Governor Connally was kinda turned to the side and he grabbed his stomach." (11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out. And my husband said “Quick, get down” and I grabbed the baby and we ran and laid down on the grass and I got on top of him. It was just right by us when it all happened, just right in front of us." (When asked if she saw anybody) "It happened so fast that you didn't have the chance to see anything. It was just too fast.” (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car. When I first saw and heard all this, I thought it was all of a joke. Just about the time President Kennedy was in front of us, I heard another shot ring out and the President put his hands up to his head, I saw blood all over the side of his head. About this time, Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and he kind of lay over to the side kind of in her arms. Then my husband, Billy, said it is a shot. We grabbed our two children and my husband lay on one child and I lay on the other one on the grass. We started to get up and then all of a sudden we lay back down. I don’t know what it was but another shot may have been fired that caused us to lay back down.” (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H842) “She estimated that when the limousine bearing the President was about 50 feet from them she heard 2 reports and the President seemed to rise up in his seat. A few seconds later she heard another shot and saw that the President had been hit in the head because she saw blood flowing from his body. She believed there were first two shots in succession, a pause, then another shot was fired which struck the President… After the shots were fired, she and her husband each grabbed a child and lay down on the grass fearing they might be hit by gunfire.” (2-15-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “The President's car was maybe 100 or 150 feet from us when I first heard the noise and the first two noises were close together, just seconds apart…at the time of the first noise he threw his hands up…He threw his hands up like this and sort of turned his head… I saw Governor Connally with the first shot seemed to turn a little bit like this. (Indicating.)… at the time of the second shot Governor Connally grabbed his stomach…his eyes just got real big and he sort of slumped down in the seat…we heard a third report, it was a short time, not maybe 10 or 12 seconds after the first two shots…that shot when it happened, the President's car was directly in front of us and it was about a lane's width between us, it wasn't in the lane next to the curb it was in the middle lane, and at that time he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear…The President, his head just seemed to explode, just bits of his skull flew in the air and he fell to the side.”

See?? No description of a large blow out on the back of JFK's head... Just a large wound on the side of his head.

So...I ask once again. Is it just a coincidence that Newman described the wound in the same manner as Zapruder?

Edited January 15, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Pat Speer]

Pat, Two wounds were widely described on radio and television the afternoon

and evening of the assassination: the small entry would to the throat, which

Malcolm Perry had described three times as a wound of entry ("It was coming

at him") during the Parkland Press Conference, a transcript of which you can

find as an appendix to ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), where others, such

and Bob Livingston and Richard Dudman, wrote about it and Tom Wicker had

it in his New York Times cover story, an extract of which I also included there;

and the blow-out to the back of head, described as having occurred by a shot

that passed through his head: "It entered his right temple," said Chet Huntley

on NBC, "It was a simple matter of a bullet through the head" and attributed

this description to Admire George Burkley, the president's personal physician.

Now, as I look at the photos you have here, the first two in the first row have

Bill Newman pointing to where the bullet entered his head at the right temple.

You have Acting Press Secretary Malcom Kilduff pointing to his right temple and

saying that it was a bullet right through the head. These are no doubt two of

the sources for the reports on radio and television. Across the bottom row of

images, you have the McClelland diagram of a massive-blow out to the rear.

And you have fourteen doctors, nurses, medical technicians and others holding

their hand over the back of there heads where they observed the blow-out of

the kind McClelland had had drawn at the back of their head. Then, moving to

the second row, you have Newman putting his hand IN THE SAME POSITION.

Don't you see that the obvious interpretation is that Newman agrees with them?

P.S. I am leaving the skull-flap issue and--what should already be apparent--

that Zapruder is not holding his hand at the same location but appears to

be describing a blow-out to the right front that, we know, did not occur,

until you download my chapter so you can view the close up of 374 and

see what I'm talking about at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/

Jim, I disagree with both of the points highlighted. It is a mistake to assume that the bullet through the head described by Kilduff, etc, meant there was a small entrance on the front of the head and an exit on the back. NO ONE at Parkland described such an entrance on the front of the head, and neither did Burkley. The Parkland witnesses described one large wound, EXACTLY like the wound observed in the autopsy photos, only closer to the back of the head. They assumed either that the bullet entering the neck exploded upwards and out of the back of the head, or that the two wounds were not connected and that the head wound was a tangential wound of both entrance and exit. Dr. Clark, who inspected Kennedy's head wound and pronounced him dead, believed the wound to be a tangential wound, one blowing off the side and back of his head, (exactly as described by Newman, only inches closer to the back of the head). Clark most assuredly consulted with Burkley on the nature of this wound.

Which makes Kilduff's pointing to his temple all the more significant. It suggests that Burkley, at the least, had seen the wound and had placed it exactly where it is on the autopsy photos and Z-film, and that Clark was simply mistaken in his recollection the wound was closer to the back of the head. Later, we should recall, Burkley suggested that the two wounds noted at autopsy were not related and that Kennedy had more than one head wound. His discussion with Clark--who never really signed off on the autopsy report in his WC testimony--was undoubtedly a factor in this suspicion.

(My extensive study of the medical evidence has led me to conclude Clark was right.)

As far as Newman...as proven by my regurgitation of his many statements, Newman has never claimed to see an entrance and an exit. He saw one large wound on the side of Kennedy's head, exactly where it is on the autopsy photos and Zapruder film. Some 30 years later, however, he would sometimes point to the back of his head when describing this wound. I'm not sure why that is. To imply he was pointing to an entrance in 1963, and an exit in the second photo 30 or more years later, however, is just not consistent with the facts.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Bernice Moore]

pat i think you told me in a post probably in this thread somewhere's that no one had stated they had seen a right rear head wound..but they did two were SSA Sam Kinney the driver of the follow up car the Queen Mary stated he saw the right rear of the President's head come off and Clint Hill W/C right rear i think he also talks about how the truunk the rear of the limo was covered with matter... i will check Kilduff but doesn't he say something like that burkley said it was a simple matter of a bullet right through the head or some such along those lines going by memory here and i could be wrong but if so doesn't a bullet right through the head or brain mean through from one side to another of the head..imo anyway i will check...ta b..

Edited January 15, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Pat Speer]

If you will take a look at the close up of 374 in my chapter found at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/,

then I think we can have a better informed discussion from both of our points of view. The flap is there, too, but

the massive blow-out to the back of the head, which has a bluish-grey cast to it, can be easily discerned. Thanks.

P.S. I am surprise you are still using the Gorden color-photos, which, as I have explained, are fakes. The hair is

long and stringy and massively matted. How can you possibly believe that the top row, second and third are

of the same subject during the same autopsy, unless he was given an shampoo and a haircut as it happened?

Jim, the hair in the Groden photos, long on the top, short on the sides, is entirely consistent with Kennedy's haircut in Texas. The hair in the back of the head photo has obviously been washed, which is as expected. After the establishing shots of the body are taken at an autopsy, a more detailed inspection of the body is made. In a case where they'd be inspecting the scalp the hair would be washed or shaved at this time. You wouldn't expect them to inspect the scalp through brain-soaked hair would ya?

BTW, Humes and Boswell would not do this themselves; they'd have an assistant or "diener" do it. In this case, I believe it would have been Jenkins, who, as I recall, told either Lifton or Livingstone that he had indeed washed Kennedy's hair.