6.5 Mannlicher Carcano rifle myths

[Guest Duncan MacRae]

On Youtube.

Video: 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano rifle myths

[Mark Haley]

Yes, some good shooting there albeit at stationary targets.

In myth # 10 the heads seem to blown practically clean off - whether the shot was from behind or to the right, so I'm not convinced we can make an effective comparison.

MH

[John Dolva]

Not just stationary targets, he fires horizontally, the barrel naturally is built to point up so to ensure long range accuracy, however shots from the sixth floor of the TSBD building were anything but horizontal, and shooting downwards on a moving, and unpredictably moving away and down, target (except when Greer makes it easier), and cycles a well oiled copy. I've got no problems with the dime though, having broken down in my various cars outback a few times. I would however give the gun a cursory wipe at least, unless I was feeling suicidal. Also, the forward snap is clearly seen in the Z film.

[Pat Speer]

Not just stationary targets, he fires horizontally, the barrel naturally is built to point up so to ensure long range accuracy, however shots from the sixth floor of the TSBD building were anything but horizontal, and shooting downwards on a moving, and unpredictably moving away and down, target (except when Greer makes it easier), and cycles a well oiled copy. I've got no problems with the dime though, having broken down in my various cars outback a few times. I would however give the gun a cursory wipe at least, unless I was feeling suicidal. Also, the forward snap is clearly seen in the Z film.

I had a flame war with the creator of this video that went on for quite awhile. I write about it on my webpage.

In 2009, an anonymous gun-aficionado going by the name mag30 began posting videos of himself firing weapons all over youtube. (Apparently, he'd been posting these videos for years, but really went crazy with it in 2009, shortly after Barack Obama took office...the relevance of this observation will soon be explained.) Anyhow, some of these videos were of him firing a Mannlciher-Carcano rifle. In some videos he fired for accuracy. In others he fired for speed. In the comments section of each of these videos, however, the subject matter was always the same. It was a series of complaints about conspiracy theorists, and how none of them knew anything about weapons, and how they'd conned people into doubting Oswald could have fired the shots that killed Kennedy.

As I knew full well that any doubts Oswald could have fired the shots sprang not from the fantasies of conspiracy theorists, but the official record, and the testimony of the men who'd actually tested Oswald's rifle, I joined the discussion, and tried to stop those impressed with mag30's shooting from believing his shooting prowess said anything about the assassination. Unfortunately, I even expressed doubts mag's videos were honest depictions of his shooting ability. This led to a tremendous amount of nastiness, and challenges to my manhood, etc. Mag30 then bet me 5,000 dollars he could rapid fire his rifle twice as fast as anyone had fired Oswald's rifle. As the speed at which he could fire his rifle--particularly in that he now admitted he'd been practicing with this rifle for 30 years--was immaterial to my research, and as I really had no desire to bet such a sum, or even meet the man, I refused. This led to even more attacks on my manhood, etc.

It was around this time that I noticed some of my comments had disappeared from the discussion of his videos. I challenged mag30 to join a discussion forum where he would have no control over what others could say about his videos. He refused to do so. At this point I stopped responding to many of his attacks. He then posted a terribly misleading video on myths about the Mannlicher-Carcano, pretending for his viewers that these "myths" all derived from conspiracy theorists, when most of them had in fact derived from the official record.

This video was not a waste of time, however. At one point in the video, mag30 shot a couple of simulated skulls, and asserted that their falling to the side after being hit was proof that skulls fall back to the shooter after being hit, and that this disproves the conspiracy theory that the movement of Kennedy's skull after frame 313 indicates the shot came from the front. While these tests were far from convincing on this point--a point which I might readily concede, I might add, should it be clearly demonstrated--they were, not surprisingly, fairly convincing on another point. A significant amount of simulated blood and brain matter splashed back toward the shooter from the entrance location on each of these skulls. Mag30's tests, therefore, demonstrated once again that the shot at frame 313 would have most logically caused a splash of blood from the back of JFK's head, should it actually have impacted on the back of JFK's head as purported.

So why didn't mag note this? Why was he so intent on using his knowledge of guns and prowess with the rifle to mislead people, when he could have used it to inform?

Well, the bio on his youtube channel gave me a clue. It began:

* I despise Socialism and the modern day liberal democrat (another word for Socialist), and all the rest of the share the wealth types. Obama represents the Socialist mentality to perfection. Karl Marx would have been proud of him.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948.

Socialism hasn't worked in 6,000 years of recorded history because it didn't have me to run it. - Ted Kennedy.

Mag30 was thereby bragging that he HATED socialists, and considered the Kennedy family--at one time one of the wealthiest families in America-- socialists.

Sadly, one finds this attitude all too prevalent within those supposedly "defending" history from conspiracy theorists. Just as there are knee-jerk conspiracists, who think every crime committed in the last 60 years is somehow connected to the Bush family, there are knee-jerk single-assassin theorists, who pathetically and desperately refuse to allow that the death of John F. Kennedy could have any meaning, or that he could have died for his country much as Abraham Lincoln died for his country. These people are, in my opinion, disturbed, and possibly dangerous. One of them regularly pollutes discussion forums with diatribes against Kennedy, and how he was a "spavined hunchback" and a sexual deviant who was totally undeserving of praise or respect.

As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Presidential assassin springs from the ranks of those currently claiming Oswald acted alone.

(To be clear, I have no idea if mag30 is a danger to anyone. I also am unable to say with 100% certainty that his bias against the Kennedys has infected his judgment on the assassination. But single-assassin theorists have, from the very beginning, routinely attacked the credibility of leftists and liberals when they discuss the possibility of a conspiracy, and have always insisted the politics of a writer are relevant when judging the credibility of his or her research. So...)

[William Kelly]

Carcanos being used by rebels in Libya.

Revolutionary Program

http://cjchivers.com...-qawalish-libya

http://soupsoup.tumb...-qawalish-libya

cjchivers:

On the subject ofscarcity, the article soon to be published noted the shortage of rifles amongthe rebels. This is a theme this blog and At War have both covered often.

I won't dwell further today on the issues raised by eithersupporting or opposing efforts to arm the rebels for their war. Instead I'llnote an unexpected impression. Since arriving in Libya's west, we've seenmany rebels carrying old Italian Carcano bolt-action rifles andcarbines. We had seen several of these likely remnants ofItalian colonization in eastern Libya, and a few more inMisurata. But in a few days in the west I think we've seen adozen. These two gentlemen, below, who we encountered on the road outof town as we headed back to Zintan for a hospital check late in the afternoon, fitthe bill for a photo, as one carried a Carcano rifle and the other a Carcanocavalry carbine.

There may be a reason for the relatively larger presence ofCarcanos here in western Libya. It's this: theserebels seem to have at least a modicum of ammunition for them — ammunition thathad apparently been kept in people's homes for decades.

Earlier in the day, as we waited outside AlQawalish as the Qaddafi forces shelled the hills nearby to cover theirwithdrawal, another gentleman offered a glimpse of his cartridges.

Where did you get these? I asked him.

"From my grandfather," he said.

You can read that statement many ways. As it applies tothis war, you might say, "So much for robust sources of rebel militarysupply." And that would be true. But as it applies to notions ofpost-conflict disarmament, it's a reminder of how items used in an uprisingmore than a half a century ago can still have martial currency, at leastuntil the ammunition runs out.

If a Carcano from almost a century back can still find auseful place on the battlefield in 2011, how long do you think theKalashnikovs and FN FALs set loose in Libyasince February will be circulating through African wars?

After the gentleman with the Carcano showed me his cartridges,he insisted on demonstrating that it worked. Before I could stop him, hechambered a round, pointed the carbine slightly overhead and pulled thetrigger. The muzzle was about a foot away from our ears. As interview gesturesgo, the man gets points for being emphatic that he likes and reliescomfortably on his dated carbine, no matter its age. Ten hours later,my ears still ring. That was just the beginning. Once the rebels moved on AlQawalish, the celebratory fire began. It didn't let up for hours, nevermind the rebels' poor state of supply.

Edited July 7, 2011 by William Kelly

[David Josephs]

That nicely oiled, well maintained MC sure works well...

Why is it that we never see a photo of a man with a rifle trying to replicate the position and movements of Oswald

based on the boxes, window opening, the space available next to the pipes in the SE corner and actual MC used??

Does it appear that HIS MC is in the same condition as whatever was found in the TSBD... on whatever floor it was found?

Duncan, are you supporting this view or simply posting the video without taking a side as you usually do?

thanks

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

That nicely oiled, well maintained MC sure works well...

Why is it that we never see a photo of a man with a rifle trying to replicate the position and movements of Oswald

based on the boxes, window opening, the space available next to the pipes in the SE corner and actual MC used??

Does it appear that HIS MC is in the same condition as whatever was found in the TSBD... on whatever floor it was found?

Duncan, are you supporting this view or simply posting the video without taking a side as you usually do?

thanks

DJ

Interesting photos, David. I'm curious as to what is supposed to be the focus of attention inside the green circle?

Thanks,

--Thomas

[William Kelly]

That nicely oiled, well maintained MC sure works well...

Why is it that we never see a photo of a man with a rifle trying to replicate the position and movements of Oswald

based on the boxes, window opening, the space available next to the pipes in the SE corner and actual MC used??

Does it appear that HIS MC is in the same condition as whatever was found in the TSBD... on whatever floor it was found?

Duncan, are you supporting this view or simply posting the video without taking a side as you usually do?

thanks

DJ

You can replicate the positions and movements of Oswald on the first and second floors at the time of the assassination, but you can't put him the window with a rifle, the one found there or any other one.

I think that the MC rifle is not a bad gun that is probably okay today in fighting Gaddafi mercenaries, with a little practice, but not so good for shooting jfk in the head from the front. That was a different gun.

I'd also like to know why the circle in the photo?

BK