ZAPRUDER FRAME # 374 & a few others

[Robin Unger]

JFK the movie frames:

Edited February 2, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Craig Lamson]

Oh Craig my charming dear,

i made my standpoint clear, providing relevant evidence why i analyized the image as i did. Conclusive and rational.

NO, you fail photo 101 Martin. you simply did not understand the simple play of sunlight and the movement of his head. Conclusive? Not even close.

Your answer appears to be rather an emotional reaction (i've seen your unedited version) than a constructive response.

Repeating special wordings is a good indicator for that.

Whats to be constructive about? You don't like my rough sketch. I concede you draw better outlines, Opps I foreget you missed the top of his head. .. In any case you failed entirely to deal with the interplay of light and head position, the main thrust of the discussion. Deal with that directly and the you might offer something worthy of a constructive response.

I don't know whether you are unwilling to examine my work logical, you are limited to understand the photographic evidence,

you have problems with your glasses or can't admit mistakes. I don't know.

I have examined your work logically and found it wanting. The photographic evidence is quite clear. The area you suggest is a blowout is simply a patch of direct sunlight shining on the back of JFK's head. That is in perfect harmony with the angle of incidence of the sun and the position of JFK's head. Moreso it is buttressed by simply watching the film and seeing the direct sunlight play over his head as it moves forward and down in the preceeding frames and then going away as his head moves inthe the shadow of Jackies body in the next frames. In other words a perfect fit.

Your suggestion fails on a number of points.

First the most obvious. Your blowout is the same tonal value of hair in sunlght. You even post a photo of JFK's head in the hospitial, that shows brain matter in bright contrast to hair..hair which should be noted is in the place you claim it is missing in the 335-337.

Second, where is the blowout in the frames preceeding 335-337? The same area of the back of his head is fully visable from 314 onward. Yet it is only in full view in 335-337? Why? Based on your own posted evidence, the brain matter stands in stark contrast to the hair, and would do so even on the shadow side of JFK's head? So where is it?

Finally you totally fail to deal with the relationship of the sun and JFK's head.

You say:

"i made my standpoint clear, providing relevant evidence why i analyized the image as i did. Conclusive and rational."

Not even close....

We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

From what i read on this forum, i don't think i exaggerate to say you have a good knowledge about the technique aspects

of cameras.

This is a standard routine of a professional photographer.

On the other hand (you as a professional photographer) it's sad to see how limited your understanding of the photographic evidence in the JFK assassination sometimes is.

If you don't got it yet (or unwilling to get it), i can't help you.

You are right about strenghts and weaknesses. Yours is the interplay of light and shadow. Having first seeing it in your failed backyard work, it it now once again on full display here. You simpy don't understand how light works in the real world. Not suprising since for you light exists inside a computer. a rather poor substitute for the real world.

Your other weakness is your apporach, or better yet your mindset. You have decided the outcome before you start your work. You don't produce objective work.

Quite frankly I would not want your help, you offer very little of value.

As i said, i made my standpoint clear (Post #93) and you have stated your point of view.

I'll let judge the forum members and all the frequent anonymous visitors who is right and who is wrong.

I'am not just for you here Craig and have zero interests in endless boring races (which have seen so often in the past on various forums).

Thats perfectly fine with me, I don't expect anyone to simply believe me. I want them to find the answers themself. Sadly far too many are like you, already "believing" and then trying like heck to fit the evidence to a "belief".

**************************************

I'am open for any constructive discussion/study with all the other forum members for sure.

Martin

Edited February 2, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Craig Lamson]

Martin:Her hand lasted for 9 frames on his back. So, half of a second.

It appears to me that most parts of her hand (expect the thumb) moved on the upper part of his shoulder/neck area.

At the end of the sequence her hand glitched/moved slightely forward and then back.

Bingo, Martin. It's not the sunlight, it is no head wound, it's Jackies Hand...bad day for Mr Know it all Lamson...

KK

More like a bad day for the blowouts...but Thanks Karl, you live up to your reputation.

[Craig Lamson]

Yes, that's it. Her hand is never up on the back of his head where the hair is all frizzled. And I can't really see the hesitation I noted before here ...of course, it all happens so fast. But I think she did a natural thing by starting to put her hand on the back of his head, then did that slightly forward and back and lower movement.

I first noticed this in an extreme slo-mo played on a new fangled type of disc a guy had at COPA in '94 ... Dave Lentz, I believe. It looked like a 33rpm record size if I am recalling correctly. Anyway, about a dozen of us were crowded into someone's hotel room to watch this thing and it was the clearest thing I'd ever seen with the ability to go quite slow and toggle back and forth. It was either that year or the next that I saw the 1st generation slides at the Archives for the first time and I have been haunted by 335 and 337 ever since ... and what it is I believe I see Jackie doing there and her horrified reaction.

Thanks so much for putting this clip up. :-)

best to you

Barb :-)

Curious Barb, you believe her hand is moving into a blowout....ie brain matter, and not hair?

No doubt the back of his head has sustained a large wound. The real question it seems it the extent. Hair, scalp, skull, brain material all missing in that light area of 335-337.

Thanks for pointing out the tuft of hair, I was going there next...

Edited February 2, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Dean Hagerman]

Her hand lasted for 9 frames on his back. So, half of a second.

It appears to me that most parts of her hand (expect the thumb) moved on the upper part of his shoulder/neck area.

At the end of the sequence her hand glitched/moved slightely forward and then back.

I agree Martin

Nice post and GIF

Dean

[Dean Hagerman]

Yes, that's it. Her hand is never up on the back of his head where the hair is all frizzled. And I can't really see the hesitation I noted before here ...of course, it all happens so fast. But I think she did a natural thing by starting to put her hand on the back of his head, then did that slightly forward and back and lower movement.

I first noticed this in an extreme slo-mo played on a new fangled type of disc a guy had at COPA in '94 ... Dave Lentz, I believe. It looked like a 33rpm record size if I am recalling correctly. Anyway, about a dozen of us were crowded into someone's hotel room to watch this thing and it was the clearest thing I'd ever seen with the ability to go quite slow and toggle back and forth. It was either that year or the next that I saw the 1st generation slides at the Archives for the first time and I have been haunted by 335 and 337 ever since ... and what it is I believe I see Jackie doing there and her horrified reaction.

I agree with Barb!

Lordy lordy its a miracle!

[John Dolva]

I hesitate to post this as it shows certain assumptions I make that I think may show some things of relevance. Others may see other things, or grade it of no value, I feel a response from Craig would be instructive, so therein my descicion to post it.

It'a in various ways enhancing certain values ( dont ask pls) while retaining a hint of the correct volors in order to make a copy to produce an (grayscale) edge detected, enhanced copy that was then merged with some translucency with the original and agian enhanced to balance it out to show certain areas, and Duncans pic made the head view or aspect fall into place.

Then I added an interpretation. I can see reasons for it being partially flawed, balanced by reasons for saying the opposite to some flaws.

[Craig Lamson]

I hesitate to post this as it shows certain assumptions I make that I think may show some things of relevance. Others may see other things, or grade it of no value, I feel a response from Craig would be instructive, so therein my descicion to post it.

It'a in various ways enhancing certain values ( dont ask pls) while retaining a hint of the correct volors in order to make a copy to produce an (grayscale) edge detected, enhanced copy that was then merged with some translucency with the original and agian enhanced to balance it out to show certain areas, and Duncans pic made the head view or aspect fall into place.

Then I added an interpretation. I can see reasons for it being partially flawed, balanced by reasons for saying the opposite to some flaws.

Interesting, but I'm not sure where you are going with it? Can you explain what it is you believe you see?

[John Dolva]

I was hoping to have others lead me somewhere, but as I see it:

the jugular rising in front of the ear was ripped and the explosive cavitation left less blood than one would expect. There is an interesting raggedness to two of the red dotted peculiarities that emerged when merging an edge detection with the image (look at the prev posted large copy with less interpretation). There may be flawed interpretations as to boundaries of the actual wound, but if one takes it as a ripped scalp with shattered bone exploded away, then an absence of a lot of blood rather than the light tinge that may be blood streaked hair is explained by the explosive cavitation of a part of the brain away from the main blood vessels but rather being pinkish grey. The exact delineation of various boundaries is in doubt or open for interpretation.

[Craig Lamson]

I was hoping to have others lead me somewhere, but as I see it:

the jugular rising in front of the ear was ripped and the explosive cavitation left less blood than one would expect. There is an interesting raggedness to two of the red dotted peculiarities that emerged when merging an edge detection with the image (look at the prev posted large copy with less interpretation). There may be flawed interpretations as to boundaries of the actual wound, but if one takes it as a ripped scalp with shattered bone exploded away, then an absence of a lot of blood rather than the light tinge that may be blood streaked hair is explained by the explosive cavitation of a part of the brain away from the main blood vessels but rather being pinkish grey. The exact delineation of various boundaries is in doubt or open for interpretation.

Ok I see where it is you are going. Where is the red blood...

I have no doubt there is blood in the hair on the back of his head, in the area some claim is a blowout. You questions and possible answers as to how much is interesting

Your work sends us towards another line of inquiry.

In the large blowout to the side of the head we see a large area of specularity...that is the sunlight is reflecting brightly off of the very reflective, wet surfaces of the exposed brain and scalp.

When we get to the area on the back of the head, which is said to be blowout, this specularity is missing, save for a very few small points. The head in 335-337 is situated in relation to the sun, that if there were large portions of exposed blood wet brain tissue, gross specularity should be present.

None are present.

[Craig Lamson]

I was hoping to have others lead me somewhere, but as I see it:

the jugular rising in front of the ear was ripped and the explosive cavitation left less blood than one would expect. There is an interesting raggedness to two of the red dotted peculiarities that emerged when merging an edge detection with the image (look at the prev posted large copy with less interpretation). There may be flawed interpretations as to boundaries of the actual wound, but if one takes it as a ripped scalp with shattered bone exploded away, then an absence of a lot of blood rather than the light tinge that may be blood streaked hair is explained by the explosive cavitation of a part of the brain away from the main blood vessels but rather being pinkish grey. The exact delineation of various boundaries is in doubt or open for interpretation.

Crap I lost my post..

I see you are looking for reasons for low visability of blood..ok.

You work takes me in another direction...specularity.

If we look at the large blowout on the side of the side of the head, we correctly see, the large areas of high specular reflection off of the bloodly, wet brain, skull and scalp material. All in perfect harmony with the angle of the sun and the head.

If we move to the back of the head, to the area claimed as a blowout, this large specularity is missing save for a few small points. The area in question is positioned in such a manner that were bloody and highly specular brain ,scalp and skull present, large areas of bright specularity should be seen. More evidence that there is no massive blowout in this area.

0

[Craig Lamson]

I was hoping to have others lead me somewhere, but as I see it:

the jugular rising in front of the ear was ripped and the explosive cavitation left less blood than one would expect. There is an interesting raggedness to two of the red dotted peculiarities that emerged when merging an edge detection with the image (look at the prev posted large copy with less interpretation). There may be flawed interpretations as to boundaries of the actual wound, but if one takes it as a ripped scalp with shattered bone exploded away, then an absence of a lot of blood rather than the light tinge that may be blood streaked hair is explained by the explosive cavitation of a part of the brain away from the main blood vessels but rather being pinkish grey. The exact delineation of various boundaries is in doubt or open for interpretation.

Post lost

[Barb Junkkarinen]

I have spent a lot of time over the years on Parkland. They know what they saw ... and

recorded it for the medico-legal record that very afternoon.

Barb: Does the medico-legal record at Parkland include ANY RECORD of a BACK WOUND?

No, it doesn't.

Nurse Diana Bowron told Livingstone she had seen it when they rolled the body while

getting JFK cleaned up to go in the casket. That interview was in 1993, I believe. But no mention by

anyone in any of the chart notes as having seen it that day at Parkland.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Curious Barb, you believe her hand is moving into a blowout....ie brain matter, and not hair?

No doubt the back of his head has sustained a large wound. The real question it seems it the extent. Hair, scalp, skull, brain material all missing in that light area of 335-337.

Thanks for pointing out the tuft of hair, I was going there next...

Hi Craig,

I think she started to put her hand on the back of his head .... just sort of a natural motion, maybe

it's a female motherly thing.<g> But when she saw there was open wound there (bone sprung open down

in that frizzled hair, brain visible), she lowered her hand to his lower neck so as not to put her hand right on it.

She appears to me to be looking right at that area on the back of his head.

Once we saw her description of the wounds, originally deleted from her WC testimony, and her comments

made in her interview with with White a week later, we learned she was trying to hold his hair and skull on ... I believe

that was her having closed the flap on the side of his head and holding it closed .... AND trying to keep the top of his head down as well so no more

could spill out ... that would be keeping the top of his head downward so no more could come out that wound on the back of his head.

That makes sense to me with both of those wounds.*

* In her original WC testimony it says: "[Reference to wounds deleted.]" Wounds with an "s" ... plural. And her comments, when we did finally see them, were only regarding his head.

Look forward to your comments on the tuft!

Bests,

Barb :-)

[John Dolva]

Thank you Craig.

I think I understand what you are talking about and it seems reasonable to me. I'm going to have to work more on the separation and delineation of areas.

One thought though is the apparent difference between the hair above the neck and what seems much more ruffled above that. I suppose it's possible that the hair being longer there and the blood caking bits together could give it a ruffled look. Anyway, thank you for the input and keywords to explore.

I'm also not sure whether the real resolution of the original image and its color values are enough to warrant such a large resizing bearing in mind that the process necessarily involves interpolation ie alteration on what is very likely a degraded image to start with.