F. Lee Mudd

[Pat Speer]

While studying the eyewitnesses a few years back, I was never able to figure out exactly where F. Lee Mudd was standing. Here is the bulk of the FBI's report on Mudd:

(1-28-64 FBI report on an interview with Mudd, 24H538) “On November 22, 1963, he was in Dallas, Texas, on a business trip to purchase clothing for his store. He operates the Southside Ranch, 9066 Mansfield Road, Shreveport, Louisiana, a western store. While in Dallas he decided to watch the parade for President t Kennedy. At about noon, he was watching the parade from a position on the north side of Elm Street and some 75 to 100 feet west of a building, which he later learned was the Texas School Book Depository. He saw the president’s car approaching from the east on Elm Street in the parade, and he recognized President Kennedy and saw him waving to the crowd. When the President’s car was some 50 or more feet away from him, he heard what sounded to him like two gunshots, and he saw the President slump. Immediately thereafter, he observed the President’s car pull out of the line of the parade and continue west on Elm Street toward the underpass. When the President’s car came abreast of Mudd, he could see the President slumped down toward his wife, who was leaning over him. He recalled seeing another man in the car, whom he did not recognize at the time but whom he later learned was Governor Connally and this man appeared to be holding one arm to his side. However he did not notice this man much because his attention was focused on the President. Mr. Mudd stated he definitely recalls hearing two shots probably less than a second apart. He said there may have been a third shot fired, but he could not be sure of this. He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

Well it hit me today that Mudd purportedly stood on the north side of Elm and saw Kennedy pass after hearing two quick shots and seeing Kennedy slump down in the car...an obvious reference to the head shot. The only unidentified people in position to do this are the two men on the steps by Emmett Hudson. It then hit me that Mudd was in Dallas to buy western Clothes and HELLO, the little man in red by Hudson was wearing a western shirt. It also hit me that the little man in red got down on the ground, just as reported by Mudd. I thereby propose that F. Lee Mudd was the man on the steps by Hudson.

There's also this statement by Hudson in relation to the man beside him:

Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps.

Now consider the last part of the FBI's report:

Mr. Mudd stated that he remained in the vicinity for possibly three or four minutes, after which he walked back toward the main part of town, where he had parked his car.

Although Hudson said the fellow said he worked over there on Industrial, it seems perfectly possible Mudd had told him he was in town on business, and was working over there that day. .

So whadda ya think?

Here is an image by Miles Scull pointing out the unusual print on the shirt of the young guy next to Hudson.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Guest Tom Scully]

I think your new thread will attract 10,000 views and 150 posts. I think its telling that a WC asst. counsel interviewed "Mr. Hudson" in person, and made a transcript of the questioning "for the record," but that no WC asst. counsel interviewed Jesse Garner....the WC accepted an affadavit from him, and SAIC John W. Rice asked Garner's wife if the Oswald's had attempted to use their telephone. He did not ask Jesse, he did not ask if anyone had called the Garners' phone asking to speak with Oswald.

I think its telling that the FBI went to the Texas State Employment Commission offices and qiustioned IB Hale's wife, Virginia, and Annie Laurie Smith, recording both of their home addresses, and asking Ms. Smith how long she had been employed there, and adding her answer to the record, but when it came to the person they were refered to, the woman who gave Oswald the contact info of Max Clark, the FBI simply wrote down that a "Mrs. Hall" passed that information to Ms. Smith to give to Oswald, but did not speak to him.

Jesse Garner, Virginia Hale, and Annie Laurie Smith all spoke with and interacted with Oswald, but their is no transcript of an asst. WC counsel questioning any of them.

Why, Pat, does your Mr. Mudd get more ink in his FBI interview than Mrs. Williams, mother of Buell Frazier, or Virginia Hale, wife of the manager of General Dynamics Ft. Worth industrial security, a former FBI agent whose two sons were the subject of an August, 1962 burglary of Judith Campbell's apartment, observed in progress by FBI agents?

I don't mean to single you out, Pat, but as Bill Kelly posted on the Mr. & Mrs. Whatitsname thread, what is the point of what has been consuming almost all of the atmosphere in this forum, of late?

I'm hoping that if you do attract 148 other posts, you'll wish you posted this thread at some other time, when it isn't in the midst of the mass obsession with all things visual, here at the JFK Debate forum.

[Bernice Moore]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Edited February 18, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Pat Speer]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Thanks, Bernice. One of the reasons I could never figure out Mudd's location was that Don Roberdeau put him in this location on his map. But does that guy look like the owner of a western wear store to you?

Maybe Don will chime in and clear this up.

[Pat Speer]

I think your new thread will attract 10,000 views and 150 posts. I think its telling that a WC asst. counsel interviewed "Mr. Hudson" in person, and made a transcript of the questioning "for the record," but that no WC asst. counsel interviewed Jesse Garner....the WC accepted an affadavit from him, and SAIC John W. Rice asked Garner's wife if the Oswald's had attempted to use their telephone. He did not ask Jesse, he did not ask if anyone had called the Garners' phone asking to speak with Oswald.

I think its telling that the FBI went to the Texas State Employment Commission offices and qiustioned IB Hale's wife, Virginia, and Annie Laurie Smith, recording both of their home addresses, and asking Ms. Smith how long she had been employed there, and adding her answer to the record, but when it came to the person they were refered to, the woman who gave Oswald the contact info of Max Clark, the FBI simply wrote down that a "Mrs. Hall" passed that information to Ms. Smith to give to Oswald, but did not speak to him.

Jesse Garner, Virginia Hale, and Annie Laurie Smith all spoke with and interacted with Oswald, but their is no transcript of an asst. WC counsel questioning any of them.

Why, Pat, does your Mr. Mudd get more ink in his FBI interview than Mrs. Williams, mother of Buell Frazier, or Virginia Hale, wife of the manager of General Dynamics Ft. Worth industrial security, a former FBI agent whose two sons were the subject of an August, 1962 burglary of Judith Campbell's apartment, observed in progress by FBI agents?

I don't mean to single you out, Pat, but as Bill Kelly posted on the Mr. & Mrs. Whatitsname thread, what is the point of what has been consuming almost all of the atmosphere in this forum, of late?

I'm hoping that if you do attract 148 other posts, you'll wish you posted this thread at some other time, when it isn't in the midst of the mass obsession with all things visual, here at the JFK Debate forum.

Tom, I didn't create this thread to argue with anyone. The identity of the man in the red shirt has long been a source of speculation. It occurred to me that his identity has been known for a long time, and I decided to share this suspicion with others. If Mudd is in the location I suspect, it adds slightly to our understanding of the case. Mudd, as several others in this general area, heard two quick shots at the end of the shooting sequence, but failed to hear or pay much attention to what is presumably the first shot. This suggests the shots were coming from different locations.

[Jack White]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Thanks, Bernice. One of the reasons I could never figure out Mudd's location was that Don Roberdeau put him in this location on his map. But does that guy look like the owner of a western wear store to you?

Maybe Don will chime in and clear this up.

What does the owner of a western wear store look like?

[Pat Speer]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Thanks, Bernice. One of the reasons I could never figure out Mudd's location was that Don Roberdeau put him in this location on his map. But does that guy look like the owner of a western wear store to you?

Maybe Don will chime in and clear this up.

What does the owner of a western wear store look like?

Having done some shopping in western wear stores, including the legendary Nudies, and having lived among people who dress western style, I can state unequivocally that western wear salespeople and owners usually dress in western wear, and that people who dress in western wear do so most all the time. You live in Texas. You know what I'm talking about.

[Jack White]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Bernice...that is CROFT, not Couch.

[Martin Hinrichs]

At about noon, he was watching the parade from a position on the north side of Elm Street and some 75 to 100 feet west of a building, which he later learned was the Texas School Book Depository. He saw the president’s car approaching from the east on Elm Street in the parade, and he recognized President Kennedy and saw him waving to the crowd. When the President’s car was some 50 or more feet away from him, he heard what sounded to him like two gunshots, and he saw the President slump.

Pat, thats an interesting observation.

As long as we include the west loading dock (which was a part of the TSBD in 63) in our calculations, then

we having a very nice fit.

best to you

Martin

[Bernice Moore]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Bernice...that is CROFT, not Couch.

IT IS SO ....DUH THANKS JACK...B

[Pat Speer]

As long as we include the west loading dock (which was a part of the TSBD in 63) in our calculations, then

we having a very nice fit.

best to you

Martin

Thanks, Martin, the map seals the deal for me. Mudd is the man in red.

In reading up on Mudd, I've spotted some huge "mistakes" on the CT side. The first thing I noticed was that one JFK source book said Mudd was interviewed by Josiah Thompson for Six Seconds in Dallas, when in fact Thompson just quoted the FBI report. The second thing I noticed was that several prominent writers claim Mudd said the shots came from the Dal-Tex Building, when the FBI report they cite specifies he suspected they came from the TSBD.

Unfortunately I think Tink is responsible for this. Where the actual report reads:

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

Tink cites Mudd's statement as evidence a shot came from the Dal-Tex, and quotes it on page 132 as follows (changes highlighted):

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noted several broken windows on the fourth floor of the Dal-Tex Building, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building... (He) stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the Dal-Tex Building."

Well, heck, Tink, what the heck were you thinking? What with your adding words to Mudd's statement to prop up the Dal-Tex as a source for the shots, and then your placing Mudd on the map of Dealey Plaza in a location much closer to the Dal-Tex, one might reasonably conclude you were deliberately deceiving your readers. Now I don't believe it for a second, but if an LN pulled this kind of thing, I'd certainly suspect as much. Do you remember how you came to make such a mistake?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Ken Rheberg]

As long as we include the west loading dock (which was a part of the TSBD in 63) in our calculations, then

we having a very nice fit.

best to you

Martin

Thanks, Martin, the map seals the deal for me. Mudd is the man in red.

In reading up on Mudd, I've spotted some huge "mistakes" on the CT side. The first thing I noticed was that one JFK source book said Mudd was interviewed by Josiah Thompson for Six Seconds in Dallas, when in fact Thompson just quoted the FBI report. The second thing I noticed was that several prominent writers claim Mudd said the shots came from the Dal-Tex Building, when the FBI report they cite specifies he suspected they came from the TSBD.

Unfortunately I think Tink is responsible for this. Where the actual report reads:

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

Tink cites Mudd's statement as evidence a shot came from the Dal-Tex, and quotes it on page 132 as follows (changes highlighted):

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noted several broken windows on the fourth floor of the Dal-Tex Building, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building... (He) stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the Dal-Tex Building."

Well, heck, Tink, what the heck were you thinking? What with your adding words to Mudd's statement to prop up the Dal-Tex as a source for the shots, and then your placing Mudd on the map of Dealey Plaza in a location much closer to the Dal-Tex, one might reasonably conclude you were deliberately deceiving your readers. Now I don't believe it for a second, but if an LN pulled this kind of thing, I'd certainly suspect as much. Do you remember how you came to make such a mistake?

Pat,

Congratulations on the F. Lee Mudd ID. As I was reading the FBI report in your initial post, it hit me, too. Redshirt Man. If we are are to believe Mudd's story, and I have no reason to doubt it, then there's no other spectator in Dealey Plaza that F. Lee Mudd could have been but Redshirt Man. Absolutely no one.

However, your ID of Mudd as Hudson's "young fellow" is incorrect. Redshirt Man was an older man. The "young fellow" was the man standing to Hudson's left in Moorman and Muchmore.

I think it would be worthwhile to track down Mudd's family. They may have stories to tell that were never covered in the FBI report. Mudd's western clothing business in Shreveport has long since closed down. In fact, over the years many changes have taken place in that somewhat rundown business district, and the addresses 9066 and 9068 Mansfield Road no longer appear to exist at all, as far as I can determine. There are businesses at 9064 and 9070.

A Francis Mudd died in Shreveport in December of 1974. This person was born in 1903 and would have been 60 years old on the day of the assassination. Reshirt Man (F. Mudd of Shreveport) looks to be that old, in my opinion.

I'm also with you, Pat, on your question for Josiah Thompson with regards to his puzzling Mudd ID: "Do you remember how you came to make such a mistake?"

I hope he responds, because I also have a question or two for him.

Josiah, you continue to argue against Moorman in the street from a technical perspective that has fallen on deaf ears. Why don't you just contact Mary Moorman, set up an interview, and ask her where she was standing? In fact, why hasn't Gary Mack scheduled her for an Oral History interview? Why hasn't he ever just asked her, point blank, where she was standing? That's really all you need to establish, isn't it? But neither one of you, it seems, have ever attempted to undertake such a simple task as that. I know how to get ahold of her and so should both of you. So why don't you? Settle this issue once and for all. Please.

Ken

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

Congratulations on the F. Lee Mudd ID. As I was reading the FBI report in your initial post, it hit me, too. Redshirt Man. If we are are to believe Mudd's story, and I have no reason to doubt it, then there's no other spectator in Dealey Plaza that F. Lee Mudd could have been but Redshirt Man. Absolutely no one.

However, your ID of Mudd as Hudson's "young fellow" is incorrect. Redshirt Man was an older man. The "young fellow" was the man standing to Hudson's left in Moorman and Muchmore.

I think it would be worthwhile to track down Mudd's family. They may have stories to tell that were never covered in the FBI report. Mudd's western clothing business in Shreveport has long since closed down. In fact, over the years many changes have taken place in that somewhat rundown business district, and the addresses 9066 and 9068 Mansfield Road no longer appear to exist at all, as far as I can determine. There are businesses at 9064 and 9070.

A Francis Mudd died in Shreveport in December of 1974. This person was born in 1903 and would have been 60 years old on the day of the assassination. Reshirt Man (F. Mudd of Shreveport) looks to be that old, in my opinion.

I'm also with you, Pat, on your question for Josiah Thompson with regards to his puzzling Mudd ID: "Do you remember how you came to make such a mistake?"

I hope he responds, because I also have a question or two for him.

Josiah, you continue to argue against Moorman in the street from a technical perspective that has fallen on deaf ears. Why don't you just contact Mary Moorman, set up an interview, and ask her where she was standing? In fact, why hasn't Gary Mack scheduled her for an Oral History interview? Why hasn't he ever just asked her, point blank, where she was standing? That's really all you need to establish, isn't it? But neither one of you, it seems, have ever attempted to undertake such a simple task as that. I know how to get ahold of her and so should both of you. So why don't you? Settle this issue once and for all. Please.

Ken

Ken, Mudd claimed to have fallen down on the ground after the shots. It was red shirt man who stayed and talked with Hudson on the ground after the shots. While Hudson in his testimony indicates the "young man" he'd been speaking to was on his left, he also indicates that this young man spoke to him during the shooting. The other guy at Hudson's left appeared out of nowhere and was gone lickety-split after the shots, and could not have spoken to Hudson during the shooting. This leads me to believe Mudd stepped down a few steps to greet the limo, and that this other guy came forward to take his place, and that Hudson was so intent on watching the Pres that he failed to notice.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Then later...

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

FWIW, based in no small part on his animated response to the head shot in Muchmore, I've always assumed red shirt man to be a young man..

As far as Thompson, Mack and Moorman... I've read where Mack claims he's good friends with Moorman. While Moorman seems to recall stepping out in the street, I've seen nothing from anyone showing that she feels so sure of this that she is willing to claim the Zapruder film has been faked, etc. So I don't see her lack of an interview with the Sixth Floor as anything suspicious... If I recall, her only televised appearance in recent years was with Mack.

But we already have a bunch of threads on Moorman in the street etc. I'd like to try and keep this one about Mudd.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Ken Rheberg]

Pat,

Mudd, Emmett Hudson, Redshirt Man, the "young fellow" from Industrial Blvd., the whole scenario as to who was who and who did what is all very important. It also ties into the Lew Bowers story. Which ties into the Ed Hoffman story. So it's imperative to get it right.

Moving on. . .

A few assumptions you've made. . .

"It was red shirt man who stayed and talked with Hudson on the ground after the shots."

"The other guy at Hudson's left appeared out of nowhere and was gone lickety-split after the shots, and could not have spoken to Hudson during the shooting."

Don't know where you came up with those assumptions. The second one, in particular, is just not true. I know this is the way you honestly see it, but there's apparently more that you haven't considered or even been aware of.

You also said:

"Mudd claimed to have fallen down on the ground after the shots."

Mudd made no such claim. At least, the FBI record makes no such claim of his.

And finally, you said:

". . . we already have a bunch of threads on Moorman in the street etc. I'd like to try and keep this one about Mudd."

I agree. Let's keep it on Mudd. But you also said:

"So I don't see her (Moorman's) lack of an interview with the Sixth Floor as anything suspicious. . . "

I have to respond to that, and I will briefly because of what it seems to suggest. I don't want any misunderstandings. There are no suspicions on my part here. For one, I think Thompson just needs to refocus, get his attention off of Fetzer and White and the line of sight argument, and document what Moorman says. Then let it go. As for Mack, I know he's a busy guy. But an oral history needs to be scheduled for Moorman as soon as possible. She's 77 years old. And one of the questions should be, "Where were you standing when you took your photograph?"

With that, I'll end all comments on this thread about Moorman in the street.

More later on Mudd and the activity on the grassy knoll stairway. . .

Ken

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

Mudd, Emmett Hudson, Redshirt Man, the "young fellow" from Industrial Blvd., the whole scenario as to who was who and who did what is all very important. It also ties into the Lew Bowers story. Which ties into the Ed Hoffman story. So it's imperative to get it right.

Moving on. . .

A few assumptions you've made. . .

"It was red shirt man who stayed and talked with Hudson on the ground after the shots."

"The other guy at Hudson's left appeared out of nowhere and was gone lickety-split after the shots, and could not have spoken to Hudson during the shooting."

Don't know where you came up with those assumptions. The second one, in particular, is just not true. I know this is the way you honestly see it, but there's apparently more that you haven't considered or even been aware of.

You also said:

"Mudd claimed to have fallen down on the ground after the shots."

Mudd made no such claim. At least, the FBI record makes no such claim of his.

And finally, you said:

". . . we already have a bunch of threads on Moorman in the street etc. I'd like to try and keep this one about Mudd."

I agree. Let's keep it on Mudd. But you also said:

"So I don't see her (Moorman's) lack of an interview with the Sixth Floor as anything suspicious. . . "

I have to respond to that, and I will briefly because of what it seems to suggest. I don't want any misunderstandings. There are no suspicions on my part here. For one, I think Thompson just needs to refocus, get his attention off of Fetzer and White and the line of sight argument, and document what Moorman says. Then let it go. As for Mack, I know he's a busy guy. But an oral history needs to be scheduled for Moorman as soon as possible. She's 77 years old. And one of the questions should be, "Where were you standing when you took your photograph?"

With that, I'll end all comments on this thread about Moorman in the street.

More later on Mudd and the activity on the grassy knoll stairway. . .

Ken

Ken, the Muchmore and Nix films show the man directly to Hudson's left race back up the stairs and into the shadows. (If I recall, there is another photo taken just after this that shows him racing back into the parking lot. It's in Groden's The Killing of a President. ) There are also photos which show what appears to be red shirt man with Hudson on the ground.

And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.

"Mr. Mudd stated he definitely recalls hearing two shots probably less than a second apart. He said there may have been a third shot fired, but he could not be sure of this. He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from.

Now, if we could only find out who the other guy was, we'd be really getting somewhere. He, after all, was the first Dealey witness to run back in the parking lot. What did he see? Where did he go?