F. Lee Mudd

[Jack White]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

I can't agree with this and think it's pretty silly. We know Hudson sat down next to the man in the red shirt after the shots. But you want us to assume the guy he spoke to was some other guy hiding behind the retaining wall. You must be a fan of Home Improvement.

I do not care if the redshirtman is Mudd or if Mudd is the redshirtman. But seems to me

that Speer is trying to force the shoe onto a foot that is too large. It is an interesting theory

but I think unprovable.

[Pat Speer]

I do not care if the redshirtman is Mudd or if Mudd is the redshirtman. But seems to me

that Speer is trying to force the shoe onto a foot that is too large. It is an interesting theory

but I think unprovable.

There's reason to believe Mudd is still alive. If so, it's possible this whole question of whether he was on the steps and the man in red or the other guy can still be cleared up.

[Ken Rheberg]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

I can't agree with this and think it's pretty silly. We know Hudson sat down next to the man in the red shirt after the shots. But you want us to assume the guy he spoke to was some other guy hiding behind the retaining wall. You must be a fan of Home Improvement.

Pretty silly? No, not silly at all, Pat.

You say we know Hudson sat down next to the man in the red shirt.

What we know is that Redshirt Man followed Hudson up the stairs.

They both sat down in the grass with Redshirt Man further into the grass than Hudson.

But Hudson said the "young fellow" who warned him to "lay down" was laying down himself on "the sidewalk." That's the sidewalk at the top of the stairs behind the retaining wall -- the very same direction Running Man headed right after the head shot as seen in Nix.

Hudson seems to go out of his way to make a distinction between where he and the "young fellow" were located:

The young fellow: ". . . he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . ."

Hudson: ". . . so I just laid down over on the ground. . ."

Two different locations. One way on the sidewalk. Over on the ground. Not side by side in the grass.

So Hudson wasn't referring to Redshirt Man here. He was referring to Running Man, the man standing to Hudson's left as seen in Moorman and Muchmore, the man Hudson said was a "young fellow" in his twenties. He ran up the stairs, took cover behind the wall, and called back down to Hudson -- whom he had just been talking to -- to lay down as well because, ". . . somebody is shooting the President."

This isn't silly. It's what the evidence points to.

Meanwhile, you say:

"Although Hudson said the fellow said he worked over there on Industrial, it seems perfectly possible Mudd had told him he was in town on business, and was working over there that day. ."

Perfectly possible? No, it's actually pretty shaky, Pat. But I would never, ever call it silly.

Running Man worked in Dallas.

Redshirt Man worked (and apparently died) in Shreveport.

F. Lee Mudd. Francis Mudd? As I said earlier in this thread, I think it would be worthwhile to track down his family. They may have stories to tell that were never covered in the FBI report.

Ken

[Ken Rheberg]

I do not care if the redshirtman is Mudd or if Mudd is the redshirtman. But seems to me

that Speer is trying to force the shoe onto a foot that is too large. It is an interesting theory

but I think unprovable.

There's reason to believe Mudd is still alive. If so, it's possible this whole question of whether he was on the steps and the man in red or the other guy can still be cleared up.

I've transferred the following over from the Mudd companion thread due to it's relevance here.

Ken

Tink, in Six Seconds in Dallas, you make what I consider to be an embarrassing mistake. You take the FBI report on F. Lee Mudd, which reads as follows:

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

And report it on page 132 as follows: (changes highlighted):

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noted several broken windows on the fourth floor of the Dal-Tex Building, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building... (He) stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the Dal-Tex Building."

For some reason you entered your conjecture Mudd was talking about the Dal-Tex building into the report, even though a full reading of the FBI report indicates he was talking about the TSBD.. This is something I'd expect a Posner to do, but not you.

In any event, I have now proposed that Mudd was also not where you thought he was, but was where his statement said he was--in front of the President when the fatal shots were fired. This has led to the suspicion of a number of researchers that Mudd is in fact the man in red standing by Hudson in the Muchmore film. Hudson said this man was a young man.

And, sure enough, there is apparently a Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport, in his early 70's. The thought occurs that with your gumshoe background you are the perfect person to contact Mudd and finally get his story, unfiltered by the FBI. Are you game?

Pat,

There's only one Francis Mudd from Shreveport. That's the one I was referring to in your other thread. And he died in Shreveport, the location of F. Lee Mudd's business, in 1974 at the age of 71. He would have been 60 at the time of the assassination.

I've done some additional investigation on this since your threads began last week, and the deceased Francis Mudd's middle name appears to indeed be Lee. So Francis Mudd of Shreveport was Francis Lee Mudd. And Francis Lee Mudd would then be assassination witness F. Lee Mudd who was sixty years old back in November of 1963.

F. Lee Mudd could only have been Redshirt Man, which means Redshirt Man was 60 years old that day. This supports the evidence as laid out in the F. Lee Mudd thread. Redshirt Man was old. And Running Man was the one who told Emmett Hudson to lay down while taking cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken

[Ken Rheberg]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

[Pat Speer]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

While it is entirely possible that the Mudd who died in 74 was the Mudd in Dealey Plaza, red shirt man or no, I have found evidence he had a son, Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. who was in his 20's in 1963 and is still alive. I think we can all agree he should be contacted in order to clear this up. I have nominated Tink to do this, but anyone else wishing to do so who can do so without torturing the guy should feel free to forge ahead.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Ken Rheberg]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

While it is entirely possible that the Mudd who died in 74 was the Mudd in Dealey Plaza, red shirt man or no, I have found evidence he had a son, Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. who was in his 20's in 1963 and is still alive. I think we can all agree he should be contacted in order to clear this up. I have nominated Tink to do this, but anyone else wishing to do so who can do so without torturing the guy should feel free to forge ahead.

Everything has been cleared up, Pat. The source is beyond reliable. It just doesn't get any better. F. Lee Mudd is deceased. He died back in 1974. This was the same F. Lee Mudd who was in Dealey Plaza that day. It really was no one else but him. And he was 60 years old at the time. Redshirt Man (Mudd) was not Hudson's "young fellow."

Ken

[Pat Speer]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

While it is entirely possible that the Mudd who died in 74 was the Mudd in Dealey Plaza, red shirt man or no, I have found evidence he had a son, Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. who was in his 20's in 1963 and is still alive. I think we can all agree he should be contacted in order to clear this up. I have nominated Tink to do this, but anyone else wishing to do so who can do so without torturing the guy should feel free to forge ahead.

Everything has been cleared up, Pat. The source is beyond reliable. It just doesn't get any better. F. Lee Mudd is deceased. He died back in 1974. This was the same F. Lee Mudd who was in Dealey Plaza that day. It really was no one else but him. And he was 60 years old at the time. Redshirt Man (Mudd) was not Hudson's "young fellow."

Ken

There is no such source that is beyond reliable. The same people who said Mudd was dead had also led us to believe he had been standing to the east of the Newmans. If you've talked to the Mudd family or if you've located someone else to have talked to Mudd or the Mudd family, why not tell us about it?

And if you've talked to the Mudd family, why not tell us if they say it's him in the photos?

Edited February 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

I can't agree with this and think it's pretty silly. We know Hudson sat down next to the man in the red shirt after the shots. But you want us to assume the guy he spoke to was some other guy hiding behind the retaining wall. You must be a fan of Home Improvement.

Pat,

For 30 years I have strongly thought that the man in the red shirt was Hudson’s young fellow.

In his recent post Ken offer’s up a reasonable alternative.

I compliment him on what I think is a great post (thinking out of the box) and you want to poke fun at that with your “Home Improvement” quip? Fine, go ahead.

You mind is apparently a closed one.

Todd

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

For 30 years I have strongly thought that the man in the red shirt was Hudson’s young fellow.

In his recent post Ken offer’s up a reasonable alternative.

I compliment him on what I think is a great post (thinking out of the box) and you want to poke fun at that with your “Home Improvement” quip? Fine, go ahead.

You mind is apparently a closed one.

Todd

Todd, my mind is, as always, open.

Here is the problem.

Hudson said:

"the young fellow that was sitting there with me—standing there with me at the present time, he says 'Lay down , Mister, somebody is shooting at the President.' He says, 'Lay down, lay down.' and he kept repeating, 'Lay down.' so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground."

This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground The man next to Hudson Ken claims did this not only did not lay down on the sidewalk by Hudson, he ran off in a hurry. So Ken is asking us to invent three events to which there is no evidence...1) that this fellow stopped running when he reached the retaining wall, 2) that he lay down behind the retaining wall, and 3) coaxed Hudson to get down from this location. This is purely Ken's invention. There is nothing in Hudson's statements or in the photographic record to make us think this is true. It is, in fact, far more logical to assume the man speaking to Hudson was the man who remained with Hudson after the shots, the man in red, the man we both agree is Mudd.

But Ken dismisses this based on what he thinks is a fact that the man in red "didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass."

But this, as far as I can tell, is another Ken invention. The Nix film shows the man in red running up the steps to Hudson. If he lay down on the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing, then Hudson would have to have laid down next to him on the grass. This is further supported by the Bond photo of the man in red sitting by Hudson but seconds after the shooting.

So...we're forced to ask, which man is more likely to have talked with Hudson and to have expressed concern over Hudson's safety--a man who raced away from him during the shooting who showed no signs of stopping, or a man who raced to him during the shooting, and sat down beside him? I think anyone not pushing an agenda would have to agree that the man in red is far more likely to have been the "young fellow" than the other guy, Racer X.

Now if it can be PROVED the Mudd in Dealey was not a young fellow, well, then perhaps a re-assessment is in order.

But this hasn't happened yet. Instead, we've been stormed with evidence Mudd died in 74 and was 60 years old at the time of the shots, something I remember reading years ago, although I can't recall where... The problem with this is that the same people who claimed Mudd had long been dead had also told us he'd been on the east side of the knoll, and that he'd thought the shots had come from the Dal-Tex. Things we now suspect to have been untrue...

Edited February 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Ken Rheberg]

Pat,

For 30 years I have strongly thought that the man in the red shirt was Hudson’s young fellow.

In his recent post Ken offer’s up a reasonable alternative.

I compliment him on what I think is a great post (thinking out of the box) and you want to poke fun at that with your “Home Improvement” quip? Fine, go ahead.

You mind is apparently a closed one.

Todd

Todd, my mind is, as always, open.

Here is the problem.

Hudson said:

"the young fellow that was sitting there with me—standing there with me at the present time, he says 'Lay down , Mister, somebody is shooting at the President.' He says, 'Lay down, lay down.' and he kept repeating, 'Lay down.' so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground."

This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground The man next to Hudson Ken claims did this not only did not lay down on the sidewalk by Hudson, he ran off in a hurry. So Ken is asking us to invent three events to which there is no evidence...1) that this fellow stopped running when he reached the retaining wall, 2) that he lay down behind the retaining wall, and 3) coaxed Hudson to get down from this location. This is purely Ken's invention. There is nothing in Hudson's statements or in the photographic record to make us think this is true. It is, in fact, far more logical to assume the man speaking to Hudson was the man who remained with Hudson after the shots, the man in red, the man we both agree is Mudd.

But Ken dismisses this based on what he thinks is a fact that the man in red "didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass."

But this, as far as I can tell, is another Ken invention. The Nix film shows the man in red running up the steps to Hudson. If he lay down on the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing, then Hudson would have to have laid down next to him on the grass. This is further supported by the Bond photo of the man in red sitting by Hudson but seconds after the shooting.

So...we're forced to ask, which man is more likely to have talked with Hudson and to have expressed concern over Hudson's safety--a man who raced away from him during the shooting who showed no signs of stopping, or a man who raced to him during the shooting, and sat down beside him? I think anyone not pushing an agenda would have to agree that the man in red is far more likely to have been the "young fellow" than the other guy, Racer X.

Now if it can be PROVED the Mudd in Dealey was not a young fellow, well, then perhaps a re-assessment is in order.

But this hasn't happened yet. Instead, we've been stormed with evidence Mudd died in 74 and was 60 years old at the time of the shots, something I remember reading years ago, although I can't recall where... The problem with this is that the same people who claimed Mudd had long been dead had also told us he'd been on the east side of the knoll, and that he'd thought the shots had come from the Dal-Tex. Things we now suspect to have been untrue...

Pat,

Now you've gone from "pretty silly" to inventions and agendas. Why do you have to resort to this? It brings disrepute on your good name.

But then you come up with this surprising affirmation:

"This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground."

That's true. The "young fellow" did lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground. You acknowledge it. But you don't seem to fully comprehend it as you go on to say:

". . . the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing. . ."

There was no sidewalk near Hudson. It was at the top of the stairs behind the retaining wall.

Once you come to grips with this basic fact, it tends to change everything.

Ken

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

For 30 years I have strongly thought that the man in the red shirt was Hudson’s young fellow.

In his recent post Ken offer’s up a reasonable alternative.

I compliment him on what I think is a great post (thinking out of the box) and you want to poke fun at that with your “Home Improvement” quip? Fine, go ahead.

You mind is apparently a closed one.

Todd

Todd, my mind is, as always, open.

Here is the problem.

Hudson said:

"the young fellow that was sitting there with me—standing there with me at the present time, he says 'Lay down , Mister, somebody is shooting at the President.' He says, 'Lay down, lay down.' and he kept repeating, 'Lay down.' so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground."

This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground The man next to Hudson Ken claims did this not only did not lay down on the sidewalk by Hudson, he ran off in a hurry. So Ken is asking us to invent three events to which there is no evidence...1) that this fellow stopped running when he reached the retaining wall, 2) that he lay down behind the retaining wall, and 3) coaxed Hudson to get down from this location. This is purely Ken's invention. There is nothing in Hudson's statements or in the photographic record to make us think this is true. It is, in fact, far more logical to assume the man speaking to Hudson was the man who remained with Hudson after the shots, the man in red, the man we both agree is Mudd.

But Ken dismisses this based on what he thinks is a fact that the man in red "didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass."

But this, as far as I can tell, is another Ken invention. The Nix film shows the man in red running up the steps to Hudson. If he lay down on the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing, then Hudson would have to have laid down next to him on the grass. This is further supported by the Bond photo of the man in red sitting by Hudson but seconds after the shooting.

So...we're forced to ask, which man is more likely to have talked with Hudson and to have expressed concern over Hudson's safety--a man who raced away from him during the shooting who showed no signs of stopping, or a man who raced to him during the shooting, and sat down beside him? I think anyone not pushing an agenda would have to agree that the man in red is far more likely to have been the "young fellow" than the other guy, Racer X.

Now if it can be PROVED the Mudd in Dealey was not a young fellow, well, then perhaps a re-assessment is in order.

But this hasn't happened yet. Instead, we've been stormed with evidence Mudd died in 74 and was 60 years old at the time of the shots, something I remember reading years ago, although I can't recall where... The problem with this is that the same people who claimed Mudd had long been dead had also told us he'd been on the east side of the knoll, and that he'd thought the shots had come from the Dal-Tex. Things we now suspect to have been untrue...

Pat,

Now you've gone from "pretty silly" to inventions and agendas. Why do you have to resort to this? It brings disrepute on your good name.

But then you come up with this surprising affirmation:

"This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground."

That's true. The "young fellow" did lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground. You acknowledge it. But you don't seem to fully comprehend it as you go on to say:

". . . the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing. . ."

There was no sidewalk near Hudson. It was at the top of the stairs behind the retaining wall.

Once you come to grips with this basic fact, it tends to change everything.

Ken

But you're wrong, Ken, Hudson was standing on an approximately 5 foot stretch of sidewalk between two groups of stairs. What would you call this flat stretch of concrete? I would call it a sidewalk. The area behind the retaining wall, on the other hand, I would not call a sidewalk. I would call it a slab.

In any event, we have a second candidate for your "third man".

From patspeer.com, chapter 7:

Wilfred or Wilfled Daetz is a little-known witness, and is probably not worth mentioning, outside the intriguing possibility he was the other man on the steps with Hudson and Mudd. He is reported to have called the Dallas Chief of Police in 1966 and to have said he'd been a witness. The Dallas Chief of Police told the FBI about him, and the FBI investigated. At that time, however, Daetz reportedly denied making the phone call to Dallas and denied being in Dallas in November, 1963. When the FBI confronted him with the fact that the phone call had been billed to his phone, Daetz reportedly claimed the whole thing must have been a practical joke. It seems probable that Daetz lied to the FBI. Perhaps he'd called Dallas on a lark and was trying to cover up his behavior. On the other hand it's possible he was afraid to tell the FBI what he'd seen, or was intimidated into retracting his statements. It's unlikely we'll ever know. What is certain, however, is that nothing he said was so outrageous that it should be dismissed out of hand. If Daetz had called Dallas while drunk and/or seeking attention, it seems likely he would have made up a more colorful story. (12-7-66 letter from Dallas Police Chief Charles Batchelor to Dallas FBI agent-in-charge J. Gordon Shanklin) "I received a long distance phone call at 1:40 p.m. December 5. 1966, from New York City, from a person who identified himself as Wilfled Daetz...The subject stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, he was standing on the grass on the north side of Elm Street--on the slope approaching the triple underpass. He recalls only one shot and that immediately after the shot he ran up the slope toward the railroad tracks and was stopped by an unknown police officer who pointed a pistol at him and shouted "Where are you going?" He then returned down the slope. The subject stated that he could hear very little out of his left ear and that he heard the shot with his right ear and in his opinion the shot came from his right which was in the direction of the railroad tracks. He also stated he saw a puff of smoke come from behind the fence near the railroad tracks. He stated that he was so excited he doesn't recall any additional shots. He further stated that at the time of the incident, he did not reveal himself and had talked to no one regarding this until the recent publicity. He states that then he revealed himself and made a statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation in New York City." Analysis: too vague. Saw smoke on knoll (if he was actually there).

[Bernice Moore]

pat and ken, todd i do not know if these will help but perhaps..you may see something...that may help the differences..take care b..

Edited February 27, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Jack White]

Pat,

For 30 years I have strongly thought that the man in the red shirt was Hudson’s young fellow.

In his recent post Ken offer’s up a reasonable alternative.

I compliment him on what I think is a great post (thinking out of the box) and you want to poke fun at that with your “Home Improvement” quip? Fine, go ahead.

You mind is apparently a closed one.

Todd

Todd, my mind is, as always, open.

Here is the problem.

Hudson said:

"the young fellow that was sitting there with me—standing there with me at the present time, he says 'Lay down , Mister, somebody is shooting at the President.' He says, 'Lay down, lay down.' and he kept repeating, 'Lay down.' so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground."

This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground The man next to Hudson Ken claims did this not only did not lay down on the sidewalk by Hudson, he ran off in a hurry. So Ken is asking us to invent three events to which there is no evidence...1) that this fellow stopped running when he reached the retaining wall, 2) that he lay down behind the retaining wall, and 3) coaxed Hudson to get down from this location. This is purely Ken's invention. There is nothing in Hudson's statements or in the photographic record to make us think this is true. It is, in fact, far more logical to assume the man speaking to Hudson was the man who remained with Hudson after the shots, the man in red, the man we both agree is Mudd.

But Ken dismisses this based on what he thinks is a fact that the man in red "didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass."

But this, as far as I can tell, is another Ken invention. The Nix film shows the man in red running up the steps to Hudson. If he lay down on the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing, then Hudson would have to have laid down next to him on the grass. This is further supported by the Bond photo of the man in red sitting by Hudson but seconds after the shooting.

So...we're forced to ask, which man is more likely to have talked with Hudson and to have expressed concern over Hudson's safety--a man who raced away from him during the shooting who showed no signs of stopping, or a man who raced to him during the shooting, and sat down beside him? I think anyone not pushing an agenda would have to agree that the man in red is far more likely to have been the "young fellow" than the other guy, Racer X.

Now if it can be PROVED the Mudd in Dealey was not a young fellow, well, then perhaps a re-assessment is in order.

But this hasn't happened yet. Instead, we've been stormed with evidence Mudd died in 74 and was 60 years old at the time of the shots, something I remember reading years ago, although I can't recall where... The problem with this is that the same people who claimed Mudd had long been dead had also told us he'd been on the east side of the knoll, and that he'd thought the shots had come from the Dal-Tex. Things we now suspect to have been untrue...

Pat,

Now you've gone from "pretty silly" to inventions and agendas. Why do you have to resort to this? It brings disrepute on your good name.

But then you come up with this surprising affirmation:

"This indicates that the "young fellow" lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground."

That's true. The "young fellow" did lay down on the sidewalk before Hudson got down on the ground. You acknowledge it. But you don't seem to fully comprehend it as you go on to say:

". . . the sidewalk by where Hudson had been standing. . ."

There was no sidewalk near Hudson. It was at the top of the stairs behind the retaining wall.

Once you come to grips with this basic fact, it tends to change everything.

Ken

But you're wrong, Ken, Hudson was standing on an approximately 5 foot stretch of sidewalk between two groups of stairs. What would you call this flat stretch of concrete? I would call it a sidewalk. The area behind the retaining wall, on the other hand, I would not call a sidewalk. I would call it a slab.

In any event, we have a second candidate for your "third man".

From patspeer.com, chapter 7:

Wilfred or Wilfled Daetz is a little-known witness, and is probably not worth mentioning, outside the intriguing possibility he was the other man on the steps with Hudson and Mudd. He is reported to have called the Dallas Chief of Police in 1966 and to have said he'd been a witness. The Dallas Chief of Police told the FBI about him, and the FBI investigated. At that time, however, Daetz reportedly denied making the phone call to Dallas and denied being in Dallas in November, 1963. When the FBI confronted him with the fact that the phone call had been billed to his phone, Daetz reportedly claimed the whole thing must have been a practical joke. It seems probable that Daetz lied to the FBI. Perhaps he'd called Dallas on a lark and was trying to cover up his behavior. On the other hand it's possible he was afraid to tell the FBI what he'd seen, or was intimidated into retracting his statements. It's unlikely we'll ever know. What is certain, however, is that nothing he said was so outrageous that it should be dismissed out of hand. If Daetz had called Dallas while drunk and/or seeking attention, it seems likely he would have made up a more colorful story. (12-7-66 letter from Dallas Police Chief Charles Batchelor to Dallas FBI agent-in-charge J. Gordon Shanklin) "I received a long distance phone call at 1:40 p.m. December 5. 1966, from New York City, from a person who identified himself as Wilfled Daetz...The subject stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, he was standing on the grass on the north side of Elm Street--on the slope approaching the triple underpass. He recalls only one shot and that immediately after the shot he ran up the slope toward the railroad tracks and was stopped by an unknown police officer who pointed a pistol at him and shouted "Where are you going?" He then returned down the slope. The subject stated that he could hear very little out of his left ear and that he heard the shot with his right ear and in his opinion the shot came from his right which was in the direction of the railroad tracks. He also stated he saw a puff of smoke come from behind the fence near the railroad tracks. He stated that he was so excited he doesn't recall any additional shots. He further stated that at the time of the incident, he did not reveal himself and had talked to no one regarding this until the recent publicity. He states that then he revealed himself and made a statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation in New York City." Analysis: too vague. Saw smoke on knoll (if he was actually there).

It is not a sidewalk. In construction parlance, it is called a LANDING. Landings are very common on

stairways, and are usually square (same width as length of treads).

[Pat Speer]

pat and ken, todd i do not know if these will help but perhaps..you may see something...that may help the differences..take care b..

Thanks, b. I think this has been discussed before. But the man to Hudson's left, who turns and runs with the head shot, appears to have been an African-American. Was he the male half of the couple seen by Sitzman? If so, his identity may no longer be a mystery. Mike Brownlow told me in November this man's name. If I recall he said the identities of this couple would be revealed in Groden's upcoming book (which is why I failed to write it down).