Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Greg Burnham]

Greg, I exchanged a number of emails with Hemming, and even spoke to him on the phone once. At one point, shortly before he died, I was brought on board a proposed project on Hemming. In preparation for what was supposed to be a far-reaching series of interviews with Hemming, I read his HSCA testimony, along with his interviews in Twyman and Hancock. I also re-read his emails to me and every post he'd ever made on this Forum. This led me to conclude he was a BS artist. He would claim things he suspected (such as the name of the shooter in the Dal-Tex) as fact, etc... But that would have been forgivable if he hadn't also--with regularity--lied through his teeth about things. It was almost as if he hated all researchers, and thought we were chumps, but couldn't stop himself from messing with us, and feeding us crap.

In my case, after a series of emails on ballistics, silencers, and Werbell, etc, in which he appeared to be sharing his genuine thoughts, he started running on about how he was the last American at Dien Ben Phu, a battle that happened in May 1954. He was not at Dien Ben Phu. His HSCA testimony makes it clear he was still in High School at the time. I realized then that Gerry was basically the guy at the corner bar who tells you a long story about the friends he'd lost in Nam, and the time he spent in the jungle, etc, who tells you a completely different story a week later.

I mean, think about it... Gerry claimed to have been friends with Che Guevara, to have secretly been working for Angleton and to have had several run-ins with Oswald. Now that would be bad enough, but he also claimed to have been at Sirhan's house the morning after RFK was killed. He had no documentation to support any of this, of course, and although gifted with words, never sought to write it down so something could come of it.

If he bought into Judyth's story it may have been because he saw in her a bit of himself... or not.

Pat,

You may have had an unfortunate experience with Gerry. I can't judge it because I didn't witness it. He was adamant that one needed to do their homework before confronting him, and if he judged--rightly or wrongly--that a researcher hadn't done that, he would treat them less than respectfully. You don't know me, but I'm not easily duped. We communicated for over a decade and spent about 50 hours on the phone. At first, our relationship was quite adversarial--and he was quite confrontational. Of course, who wouldn't be if they were being seriously grilled about their involvement in the murder of JFK? But, as time went by I grew to believe that he was not involved in Dallas. There is an argument to be made that he and/or members of his team were set up as alternate patsies had the hit taken place elsewhere, such as, Miami--for instance. But, that's a different topic. Suffice to say, every claim that he made TO ME that I originally doubted ended up checking out (if it was possible to check out). There were claims that I simply could not verify for many reasons, but my inability to confirm them does not prove prevarication on his part.

I will concede that he did have a tendency that, once pissed off enough, allowed him to lead a newbie on a wild goose chase. It was a bit sadistic, IMO. He would usually end it with a justification, by saying, "Well, they didn't know sh*t from shinola anyway..."

[Josiah Thompson]

Can I remind people there is no need to repeat verbatim the previous posts made by someone unless there is a specific reason to do so. Having to scroll through repeats of posts is annoying (to me).

A request: Please, don't quote unless it is pertinent to your own post.

Thank you, Evan. Because of your reminder I went back and edited down my last post. Sorry.

Josiah Thompson

[Kathleen Collins]

Judyth said that Oswald was part of an assassination abort team. William Plumlee said he flew in an assassination abort team and they reached Dealey Plaza with few minutes to spare. Plumlee hung out under the shade of a tree on the South Knoll with another man.

What exactly was Oswald going to do to stop the assassination? And the other cast of characters Plumlee flew in? I can't find one incident where someone tried to stop it. The Secret Service stood down. And the shots were coming from everywhere -- the Dal-Tex building, TSBD, grassy knoll, south knoll, Underpass, etc. How were these vagabonds going to stop the guns?

I think Judyth is off the board now, but I would like to ask her: just how was Oswald going to stop the assassination? And was he a part of Plumlee's team of assassination abortionists?

Kathy C

Edited April 25, 2010 by Kathleen Collins

[Jack White]

Remarkably, there is a timeline of newspaper mentions of MARMOSETS for medical

research available on the internet.

In the 1930s, there are two mentions that it might be possible. In the 1940s there was

one mention that it might be possible.

In the 1950s, there were no mentions.

In the 1960s, there were some mentions that the government was considering replacing

rhesus monkeys with marmosets. I could find NO mention that by 1963 marmosets were

widely used in medical research.

It appears that JVB's claim of using marmosets may be premature.

Jack

I continue to be puzzled by this. Here is an exact quote of Haslam's question and JVB's reply:

“My question is about your time in New Orleans in the summer of 1963… Do I understand that you are saying that you were told that the extracts that you prepared at David Ferrie's apartment and delivered to Mary Sherman's apartment were being subjected to radiation and then recycled into more mice? Do I have this right?”

Judyth’s response:

==EXACTLY...ALSO, INTO MONKEYS. MANY WERE KILLED, BUT THEY ORDERED THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF NEW MONKEYS…==

So in JVB's own words, she claims that IN FERRIE'S APARTMENT WERE MICE THAT WERE BEING RADIATED

and ALSO "THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF NEW MONKEYS" AFTER MANY WERE KILLED.

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

[Barb Junkkarinen]

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

Good question, too, Jack .... and another question is when was the first mention of Judyth, et al working with monkeys? No mention in the early days, that I recall or have found reference to. 2003/2204? Or later, or it seemed to grow later...especially recently.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

Good question, too, Jack .... and another question is when was the first mention of Judyth, et al working with monkeys? No mention in the early days, that I recall or have found reference to. 2003/2204? Or later, or it seemed to grow later...especially recently.

Bests,

Barb :-)

And when was the first mention of the SECOND "underground lab" across the street from Ferrie's place?

Originally I thought it was all done in Ferrie's kitchen. What kind of place was across the street? Another

house, an office building, what?

On the monkey business, her original statement implies that the monkeys were at Mary Sherman's

house, but just recently she has said that the monkeys (marmosets) were in the lab across the street.

Which version takes precedence?

Jack

[David Lifton]

Jack,

Your research about the marmoset monkeys seems to be right on the money.

But. . what does it matter if the small "marmoset" monkeys didn't exist back then? If you're writing fiction, you just draw on reality, as needed, and ignore such facts--which, to that kind of mentality, are not real, but just "facts". Some Hollywood producers, I am told, have an intense dislike for facts--because they get in the way of "making the movie." One has a sign on his desk (I was told) that said "reality sucks." And what are Tom Hanks and Bugliosi going to do with some of this nonsense? (I can only imagine).

Anyway, the more I hear about this--between the physics experiments and the thousands of monkeys, Ferrie's apartment seems not particulary habitable but more and more seems to resemble some combination of the Stanford Linear Accelerator, and the Bronx Zoo.

I have to wonder: when is Saturday Night Live going to start drawing on this thread, for some of their material?

But truly, I have taken a glance at the statistics of this thread, with some bemusement. But also alarm. Its like watching the stock market, when prices go up and up and the stocks get more and more "overvalued" (as they say). One wonders: Will the number of posts really "break" 1600? (Yes, it did). What about the number of views--will it break 72,000? Maybe these statistics ought to be quoted, if only for a minute, on SQUAWK BOX or NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT. ("And tonight, the number of views, on the Judyth thread, has hit 72,000! This is one of the most interesting phenomenon since the Tulip Craze!")

Although I appreciate the many serious posts, there also seems to be here a bull market for silliness.

Well, I have had my teaspoon full of Judyth for the evening.

Good night, all.

DSL

4/24/10; 9:50 PM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

[Kathleen Collins]

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

Good question, too, Jack .... and another question is when was the first mention of Judyth, et al working with monkeys? No mention in the early days, that I recall or have found reference to. 2003/2204? Or later, or it seemed to grow later...especially recently.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Judyth is adept at research. She has an answer to everything. When she was on Rich's forum, you couldn't get an answer out of her -- she was too ill. Yet she wrote big posts. Now she's had time to research. She has a great intellect, I'll hand her that. I find it difficult to believe that Oswald worked in that disgusting lab.

Kathy C

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Judyth said that Oswald was part of an assassination abort team. William Plumlee said he flew in an assassination abort team and they reached Dealey Plaza with few minutes to spare. Plumlee hung out under the shade of a tree on the South Knoll with another man.

What exactly was Oswald going to do to stop the assassination? And the other cast of characters Plumlee flew in? I can't find one incident where someone tried to stop it. The Secret Service stood down. And the shots were coming from everywhere -- the Dal-Tex building, TSBD, grassy knoll, south knoll, Underpass, etc. How were these vagabonds going to stop the guns?

I think Judyth is off the board now, but I would like to ask her: just how was Oswald going to stop the assassination? And was he a part of Plumlee's team of assassination abortionists?

Kathy C

Hi Kathy,

The "abort team" idea is another late claim. Martin Shackelford seemed surprised by it himself when Bob Vernon posted this to him in October 2004:

Judyth Baker is now on record as saying that Oswald and Tosh Plumlee were on

the same "abort team." How do you explain this, Martin?

Matin replied saying:

Er.....ah.....Bob. If you're going to claim that Judyth "is now on record," you need to provide a citation SHOWING WHERE she is "on record." Given your last

utterly fictional posting, this becomes essential. Martin

Vernon replied with an e-mail Judyth had sent on 6-6-2004, in which she closed by saying:

RE: David Is Uwe and with me

Date: 6/6/2004 9:00:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time

From: elec...@xs4all.nl

To: NEldr...@aol.com

Sent from the Internet (Details)

...............

Please tell Uwe thank you for anything he can do to get the truth out.

Plumlee's stuff needs to be taken seriously.Lee knew him. Plumlee was part

of the abort team Lee was on to try to save JFK.

==j==

I personally do not recall any discussions about an "abort team" that involved LHO after I got involved with the Judyth story in late 2004, nor do I recall any such claim in her book. In her book, she relates how she tried to get O not to be there that day, but he told her that if he was there, there would be one less shot fired at JFK ... and somewhere along the line was the claim O planned to fire a "warning shot."

Plumlee's abort team claim is probably the genesis Judyth's "abort team" claim re LHO, imo.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Glenn Viklund]

Jack,

Your research about the marmoset monkeys seems to be right on the money.

But. . what does it matter if the small "marmoset" monkeys didn't exist back then? If you're writing fiction, you just draw on reality, as needed, and ignore such facts--which, to that kind of mentality, are not real, but just "facts". Some Hollywood producers, I am told, have an intense dislike for facts--because they get in the way of "making the movie." One has a sign on his desk (I was told) that said "reality sucks." And what are Tom Hanks and Bugliosi going to do with some of this nonsense? (I can only imagine).

Anyway, the more I hear about this--between the physics experiments and the thousands of monkeys, Ferrie's apartment seems not particulary habitable but more and more seems to resemble some combination of the Stanford Linear Accelerator, and the Bronx Zoo.

I have to wonder: when is Saturday Night Live going to start drawing on this thread, for some of their material?

But truly, I have taken a glance at the statistics of this thread, with some bemusement. But also alarm. Its like watching the stock market, when prices go up and up and the stocks get more and more "overvalued" (as they say). One wonders: Will the number of posts really "break" 1600? (Yes, it did). What about the number of views--will it break 72,000? Maybe these statistics ought to be quoted, if only for a minute, on SQUAWK BOX or NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT. ("And tonight, the number of views, on the Judyth thread, has hit 72,000! This is one of the most interesting phenomenon since the Tulip Craze!")

Although I appreciate the many serious posts, there also seems to be here a bull market for silliness.

Well, I have had my teaspoon full of Judyth for the evening.

Good night, all.

DSL

4/24/10; 9:50 PM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

Thanks for a good laugh. I think Ed Asner would be an excellent choice for the ranting lead part in Hanks movie.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack

Good question, too, Jack .... and another question is when was the first mention of Judyth, et al working with monkeys? No mention in the early days, that I recall or have found reference to. 2003/2204? Or later, or it seemed to grow later...especially recently.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Judyth is adept at research. She has an answer to everything. When she was on Rich's forum, you couldn't get an answer out of her -- she was too ill. Yet she wrote big posts. Now she's had time to research. She has a great intellect, I'll hand her that. I find it difficult to believe that Oswald worked in that disgusting lab.

Kathy C

Exactly. And this is one reason her story is never finished ... it keeps changing. More and more details and claims. There is no known supporting evidence, let alone documented proof, for anything beyond her having been a stellar science student in high school and having worked at Reily at the same time as LHO. Everything else is on her sayso.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Kathleen Collins]

Plumlee's abort team claim is probably the genesis Judyth's "abort team" claim re LHO, imo.

Bests,

Barb :-)

I agree with you entirely. The whole story about the abort team. They sound like the 3 Stooges, if you ask me. They get to Dealey Plaza at the last minute to save him? I agree that Judyth assimilated this. Tosh receives a lot of respect on this forum.

Yours Truly,

Kathy C

[Josiah Thompson]

Jack,

Your research about the marmoset monkeys seems to be right on the money.

But. . what does it matter if the small "marmoset" monkeys didn't exist back then? If you're writing fiction, you just draw on reality, as needed, and ignore such facts--which, to that kind of mentality, are not real, but just "facts". Some Hollywood producers, I am told, have an intense dislike for facts--because they get in the way of "making the movie." One has a sign on his desk (I was told) that said "reality sucks." And what are Tom Hanks and Bugliosi going to do with some of this nonsense? (I can only imagine).

Anyway, the more I hear about this--between the physics experiments and the thousands of monkeys, Ferrie's apartment seems not particulary habitable but more and more seems to resemble some combination of the Stanford Linear Accelerator, and the Bronx Zoo.

I have to wonder: when is Saturday Night Live going to start drawing on this thread, for some of their material?

But truly, I have taken a glance at the statistics of this thread, with some bemusement. But also alarm. Its like watching the stock market, when prices go up and up and the stocks get more and more "overvalued" (as they say). One wonders: Will the number of posts really "break" 1600? (Yes, it did). What about the number of views--will it break 72,000? Maybe these statistics ought to be quoted, if only for a minute, on SQUAWK BOX or NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT. ("And tonight, the number of views, on the Judyth thread, has hit 72,000! This is one of the most interesting phenomenon since the Tulip Craze!")

Although I appreciate the many serious posts, there also seems to be here a bull market for silliness.

Well, I have had my teaspoon full of Judyth for the evening.

Good night, all.

DSL

4/24/10; 9:50 PM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

I read your post, David, and then laughed out loud.

The whole thing really is ridiculous. Judyth comes out of the woodwork decades after the assassination. Great quantities of time and effort are deployed to check her claims. They fail. She is revealed as a fantasist. And then what happens years later? Not having familiarized himself with the sorry prior history, Professor Fetzer wades in like a Broadway ingenue and keeps getting his ass handed to him. His response is “to fetzer.” Whenever anyone differs with him, he/she is reminded that either (1) they are a “disinformation agent,” or (2) they are congenitally stupid and hence unable to recognize the brilliance of the Professor’s words, or (3) lacking additional initials after their names they are unqualified to have an opinion on the matter, or (4) they are part of a conspiracy set up by the Professor’s challengers to make it appear that people disagree with him, or (5) all of the above.

So now we have a truly unpleasant field of discussion. I keep remembering how things were back when you and I started out in this field. How you and I and others shared information back and forth and helped advance a common agenda.. How we hoped each other’s work would succeed and how we criticized arguments that we believed weren’t up to snuff. Back then, assassination research was sort of fun.

This last thread isn’t fun. I check into it from time to time almost like a motorist passing an accident scene. It’s filled with insults and distractions. Over everything is the unpleasant smell of a little ego defending itself. If Sylvia were alive, I think I know what she’d say. I wonder what Mark Lane thinks of it. You’re right. Let’s just hope that Tom Hanks’ researchers don’t find it.

Josiah Thompson

[William Kelly]

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 05:16 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190450

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

In post #1479, I identified the location of the linear particle accelerator:

None of it can be known with certainty, but the basic elements are very strongly supported. It would be a mistake to suppose that every aspect of her story has to be supported to the same degree as every other. Among the 17 findings that Haslam enumerates, which I have reiterated above, the most important and best supported concern Judyth's ability to conduct reseach on cancer, that she was induced to come to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, that she met and worked with Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, that Mary was killed by a massive source of electricity (almost certainly the linear particle accelerator at the Public Health Hospital), and that Judyth was summarily dismissed by Ochsner after she complained about the prisoner who was used in a (fatal) experiment conducted without informed consent.

In post #1495, he asks if the accelerator was located in Ferrie's apartment or lab across the street. Not to put too fine a point on it but, given this post, how can post #1474 be truthful?

QUOTE (Jack White @ Apr 22 2010, 04:32 PM)

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=190422

Here is a LINEAR PARTICLE ACCELERATOR. Did David Ferrie have his in his apartment

or his laboratory across the street?

Jack

I still have two unanswered questions on the table.

Who was the OTHER Judyth Vary Baker who Ed Haslam met?

And why did Oswald forge a fake vaccine card with Dr. Alek Hidel's name on it from the

US Public Service Hospital in New Orleans?

What could he have possibly used this card for? Was it necessary to get a visa to Mexico? Did he want to establish the existence of Dr. Hidell? Can anyone think of another good reason to create such a card?

Oswald reportedly checked out this hospital as a potential place for his second daughter to be born, but that plan was thwarted when Marina wrote to Ruth Paine via Art Young and said she would go with her to Texas for the baby to be born.

This is the hospital where the partical accellerator was said to be located, the one that killed Mary Sherman, though according to EH she was moved to her apartment to make it appear she was the victim of an intruder.

Of course there is the world's largest and new particle accellerator in Switzerland that also recently made the news:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15727

A would-be saboteur arrested today at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland made the bizarre claim that he was from the future. Eloi Cole, a strangely dressed young man, said that he had travelled back in time to prevent the LHC from destroying the world.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49305387,00.htm

The LHC successfully collided particles at record force earlier this week, a milestone Mr Cole was attempting to disrupt by stopping supplies of Mountain Dew to the experiment's vending machines. He also claimed responsibility for the infamous baguette sabotage in November last year.

Mr Cole was seized by Swiss police after CERN security guards spotted him rooting around in bins. He explained that he was looking for fuel for his 'time machine power unit', a device that resembled a kitchen blender.

Police said Mr Cole, who was wearing a bow tie and rather too much tweed for his age, would not reveal his country of origin. "Countries do not exist where I am from. The discovery of the Higgs boson led to limitless power, the elimination of poverty and Kit-Kats for everyone. It is a communist chocolate hellhole and I'm here to stop it ever happening."

This isn't the first time time-travel has been blamed for mishaps at the LHC. Last year, the Japanese physicist Masao Ninomiya and Danish string-theory pioneer Holger Bech Nielsen put forward the hypothesis that the Higgs boson was so "abhorrent" that it somehow caused a ripple in time that prevented its own discovery.

Professor Brian Cox, a former CERN physicist and full-time rock'n'roll TV scientist, was sympathetic to Mr Cole. "Bless him, he sounds harmless enough. At least he didn't mention bloody black holes."

Mr Cole was taken to a secure mental health facility in Geneva but later disappeared from his cell. Police are baffled, but not that bothered.

Edited April 25, 2010 by William Kelly

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

You appear to be confounding the mormosets that were kept in cages with the mice

(because they were very small) and the monkeys that were stored at the primate

center. Have you read DR. MARY'S MONKEY? When you do, I think you will begin

to realize how many of your posts were misdirected just because of your ignorance.

Jim

Remarkably, there is a timeline of newspaper mentions of MARMOSETS for medical

research available on the internet.

In the 1930s, there are two mentions that it might be possible. In the 1940s there was

one mention that it might be possible.

In the 1950s, there were no mentions.

In the 1960s, there were some mentions that the government was considering replacing

rhesus monkeys with marmosets. I could find NO mention that by 1963 marmosets were

widely used in medical research.

It appears that JVB's claim of using marmosets may be premature.

Jack

I continue to be puzzled by this. Here is an exact quote of Haslam's question and JVB's reply:

“My question is about your time in New Orleans in the summer of 1963… Do I understand that you are saying that you were told that the extracts that you prepared at David Ferrie's apartment and delivered to Mary Sherman's apartment were being subjected to radiation and then recycled into more mice? Do I have this right?”

Judyth’s response:

==EXACTLY...ALSO, INTO MONKEYS. MANY WERE KILLED, BUT THEY ORDERED THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF NEW MONKEYS…==

So in JVB's own words, she claims that IN FERRIE'S APARTMENT WERE MICE THAT WERE BEING RADIATED

and ALSO "THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF NEW MONKEYS" AFTER MANY WERE KILLED.

When I asked a question about the "thousands of new monkeys", their care and feeding, etc., Judith became

defensive and said (via Jim) that the thousands of monkeys were not full sized rhesus monkeys, but "thumb-

sized" marmoset monkeys, small as mice. When I researched marmoset monkeys and found that in 1963

marmosets were not yet being used in medical research, everyone has become silent. I look forward to

the answer to the questions about this monkey business.

Jack