Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Dean Hartwell]

I had stopped posting on this thread because I thought that what had needed to be said here had been said. I was mistaken.

Jim has provided us with 17 facts in support of the belief that Judyth Vary Baker has told us the truth. All of these facts have been derived from Judyth's statements and have solid support.

Please detail ... briefly ... the "solid support" that renders "Judyth's statements" to be FACTS.

In Fetzer's own words, as I posted recently, on what is or is not a FACT:

It should be observed that no claim is a "fact" unless it happens to be

true. Indeed, in its stronger sense, "facts" are claims whose truth has

been verified. (James Fetzer, Sunday, Apr 5, 2009 8:37am Altgen's thread, yahoo group)

We are familiar with Judyth's many statements and claims. Please post the verification for those 17 points that your are calling "facts."

For instance, on point #1 .... Judyth claims she was invited to New Orleans by Dr. Ochsner.

What have you or anyone been able to *verify* that confirms that claim is a "fact"?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

Hi Barb,

As I noted in my last post, different people have different standards in judging Judyth's statements. Who do you place the burden of proof upon?

I believe that what one says is true unless proven otherwise. So here is how I view point #1:

Source: "James Fetzer: 14 Reasons to Believe in Judyth Vary Baker": http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/03/14...udyth-vary.html

Baker provides substantial reasons for why she should never have been employed at Reily’s as a Vice President’s secretary, when her expertise was in cancer research and medical technology: New Orleans’ Ochsner Clinic was world-renowned as a cancer research center.

It’s reasonable to assume that Baker would not leave her studies, family, and friends in Florida simply to become a secretary in New Orleans. Her ease in obtaining a well-paying chemistry research position soon after her return to Florida proves she had no reason to leave unless it was originally, as she asserts, to work under the prestigious Doctors Ochsner and Sherman.

Barb, if you are looking for a conversation between Dr. Ochsner and Judyth on videotape or evidence to that effect, obvioulsy you won't find it. I have never found many facts in the JFK assassination in this manner.

Several facts pop up - her excellence in science has been noted. She participated in forums about science. There are newspaper clippings that have been cited here on this forum as to her skills in science at a young age. The inference that she did not go to New Orleans to be a secretary is more than reasonable. It connects with the rest of the story as well. She could have been a secretary anywhere, including her home in Florida.

Each fact in #1 - #17 is a connection which makes the whole story integrated. If you decide you don't have the evidence and call one of them false, you may well call the whole story false. That would raise the question as to whether she make this story up.

I answered that here at: http://judythbaker.blogspot.com/2010/03/wh...er-by-dean.html

The presence of facts added to this one and that all have come from the same source strengthens the fact that the whole is true. If you choose to push an unreasonably high standard on this or any matter, your conclusion will be that the story is false. It is up to you.

Dean

Edited April 22, 2010 by Dean Hartwell

[Kevin Greenlee]

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Kevin Greenlee,

I gave you a very appropriate response. Between DR. MARY'S MONKEY and

ME & LEE, there should be the opportunity to do this all over again! Think of

it--a reprise of the longest thread in the forum's history, where you appear to

have learned next to nothing. I am sorry, but your insinuations are the kind

intended to excuse you or any others of your ilk from serious research on the

subject, when this exercise has provided massive opportunities to learn and

explore the evidence. If you blew it, that's not my fault, but your own failing.

Jim

mr fetzer-

i appreciate your response.

can you allow me to make an observation or three?

as i've indicated before, i have read this thread and i also have made myself with judyth's story as it's been offered in other venues. the only "evidence" i have seen which backs up most of your 17 points is "because judyth said so." i do not find that particularly compelling and was hoping you could offer something more substantial.

even though- as you said- some of your points have more backing than others you said in a recent message that the fact that Judyth was "induced to come to New orleans by Alton ochsner" was among "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points. i imagined then that you had plenty to say about it. apparently that's not the case.

throughout this thread, it seems to me you have fairly consistently been frustrated by how critics have focused on what you feel are trivial aspects of judyth's story. i believed then that you would welcome the opportunity to shift the attention to what you believe are the essentials of her tale. those 17 points, after all, were created by a judyth supporter. since an ally created that rhetorical battleground (and you trumpeted it), i assumed you would be ready- even eager- to defend it. instead, you seem more interested in going back to arguing trivia (ie, the location of a linear accelerator). this is, of course, your right. but it certainly does create the impression that you are unable to back up what you say are the crucial elements of the story you have been so strenuously defending for the last couple of months. and if you cannot back up one of "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points it makes me wonder just how weak and flimsy the other 16 most be.

thanks again for the response.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Believe it or not, I have a life apart from this forum. With Judyth's book about

to appear, what godly purpose could be achieved by an instant replay at this

point in time? Your request, under these conditions, is entirely unreasonable.

You want to question my sincerity in doing all of this? Be my guest! Unreal.

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Kevin Greenlee,

I gave you a very appropriate response. Between DR. MARY'S MONKEY and

ME & LEE, there should be the opportunity to do this all over again! Think of

it--a reprise of the longest thread in the forum's history, where you appear to

have learned next to nothing. I am sorry, but your insinuations are the kind

intended to excuse you or any others of your ilk from serious research on the

subject, when this exercise has provided massive opportunities to learn and

explore the evidence. If you blew it, that's not my fault, but your own failing.

Jim

mr fetzer-

i appreciate your response.

can you allow me to make an observation or three?

as i've indicated before, i have read this thread and i also have made myself with judyth's story as it's been offered in other venues. the only "evidence" i have seen which backs up most of your 17 points is "because judyth said so." i do not find that particularly compelling and was hoping you could offer something more substantial.

even though- as you said- some of your points have more backing than others you said in a recent message that the fact that Judyth was "induced to come to New orleans by Alton ochsner" was among "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points. i imagined then that you had plenty to say about it. apparently that's not the case.

throughout this thread, it seems to me you have fairly consistently been frustrated by how critics have focused on what you feel are trivial aspects of judyth's story. i believed then that you would welcome the opportunity to shift the attention to what you believe are the essentials of her tale. those 17 points, after all, were created by a judyth supporter. since an ally created that rhetorical battleground (and you trumpeted it), i assumed you would be ready- even eager- to defend it. instead, you seem more interested in going back to arguing trivia (ie, the location of a linear accelerator). this is, of course, your right. but it certainly does create the impression that you are unable to back up what you say are the crucial elements of the story you have been so strenuously defending for the last couple of months. and if you cannot back up one of "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points it makes me wonder just how weak and flimsy the other 16 most be.

thanks again for the response.

[Pamela Brown]

DL said:

In any event: please note that I was on record with the belief that the Zapruder film was altered, for these reasons, and published this in Best Evidence in 1981.

Let's keep in mind that Lifton is one who claims to be an alterationist, yet has no interest in early viewings of the Zapruder.

Let's not also forget that MFW, though self-published, came out long before BE and put forth not only the concept of body alteration but of Z-film(s) alteration.

Murder From Within was never "self published" as far as I know. It existed only as a typewritten

manuscript. The only copy of it I ever saw was a xerox copy owned by Mary Ferrell.

My understanding is that all copies of it which proliferated were similar xeroxes. Am I wrong?

Jack

It was published, copyright 1974, by Lifton's LA buddy Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams, by PROBE, PO Box 13390, UCSB, Santa Barbara, CA 93107. It is in a spiral bound format.

Then it was not self-published.

It was not registered with the Library of Congress. It is my understanding the authors were afraid of being sued by the SS, so took precautions against that. Perhaps one of the offspring of Newcomb or Adams is lurking and could answer that in more detail.

[Pamela Brown]

SR says:

Knock off the condescension until your familiarity with the New Orleans evidence equals mine.

Roy seems to equate having information with having a process for weighing and evaluating it, not to mention a need to share it. He has kept his information close to his chest for all this time. It's just a guessing game as to what Roy has or does not have, as he is not being forthcoming. So how is anyone to know what Roy understands or does not understand about NOLA (particularly because he insists on keeping his blinders firmly in place).

Don't force us to say, 'put up or shut up'. :-0

Edited April 22, 2010 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Dean Hagerman]

Dean,

I haven't wanted to address you about this, but your performance on this thread

has been less than mediocre. When you compliment Jack for his ignorance with

regard to basic information about the case, I find it inexcusable. I want to think

you are a serious student of various aspects of the assassination. But, as I see

it, your posts here continue to demonstrate that you haven't a clue! I'm sorry.

Jim

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located

in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

Boom-shaka-laka

Since Jack and I are both huge Basketball fans I figured that my favorite saying would be approprite for Jacks smackdown

Jim

If you cant see that I was trying to be funny while backing Jack up at the same time then I dont know what to think

I am a serious student Jim, if you cant see that then im sorry, in fact if we were talking about lets say the Zapruder Film or something that you and I agree on I dont think you would question my ability on the subject

In fact I only know the basics about Judyth and her story, I have told you this over and over, and in your opinion I need to know EVERYTHING about Judyth to make a post in this thread thats up to your standerds

Well lets move to another subject that I know all about and I promise you will see me in a different light

[Kevin Greenlee]

Ha! you have time to have- what did you say? hundreds?- of conversations with judyth and you have written thousands and thousands of words here attempting to advance her ridiculous claims and you have never missed an opportunity to attack people (like Stephen roy and Dean Hagerman and so on) but when i ask you to offer up any evidence to back up what you call one of "the most important and best supported" elements of judyth's story you- darn the luck!- just don't have the time to do i. that's ridiculous. you don't offer evidence because you don't have it. and we both know it.

Believe it or not, I have a life apart from this forum. With Judyth's book about

to appear, what godly purpose could be achieved by an instant replay at this

point in time? Your request, under these conditions, is entirely unreasonable.

You want to question my sincerity in doing all of this? Be my guest! Unreal.

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Kevin Greenlee,

I gave you a very appropriate response. Between DR. MARY'S MONKEY and

ME & LEE, there should be the opportunity to do this all over again! Think of

it--a reprise of the longest thread in the forum's history, where you appear to

have learned next to nothing. I am sorry, but your insinuations are the kind

intended to excuse you or any others of your ilk from serious research on the

subject, when this exercise has provided massive opportunities to learn and

explore the evidence. If you blew it, that's not my fault, but your own failing.

Jim

mr fetzer-

i appreciate your response.

can you allow me to make an observation or three?

as i've indicated before, i have read this thread and i also have made myself with judyth's story as it's been offered in other venues. the only "evidence" i have seen which backs up most of your 17 points is "because judyth said so." i do not find that particularly compelling and was hoping you could offer something more substantial.

even though- as you said- some of your points have more backing than others you said in a recent message that the fact that Judyth was "induced to come to New orleans by Alton ochsner" was among "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points. i imagined then that you had plenty to say about it. apparently that's not the case.

throughout this thread, it seems to me you have fairly consistently been frustrated by how critics have focused on what you feel are trivial aspects of judyth's story. i believed then that you would welcome the opportunity to shift the attention to what you believe are the essentials of her tale. those 17 points, after all, were created by a judyth supporter. since an ally created that rhetorical battleground (and you trumpeted it), i assumed you would be ready- even eager- to defend it. instead, you seem more interested in going back to arguing trivia (ie, the location of a linear accelerator). this is, of course, your right. but it certainly does create the impression that you are unable to back up what you say are the crucial elements of the story you have been so strenuously defending for the last couple of months. and if you cannot back up one of "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points it makes me wonder just how weak and flimsy the other 16 most be.

thanks again for the response.

[Kevin Greenlee]

[

I believe that what one says is true unless proven otherwise.

in other words, dean believes the story because judyth told it to him. not a very rigorous standard! and also a problematic one.

if the evidence of this story is judyth's own word then our belief in the tale rises or falls with what we make of her personal credibility. Barb and Glenn (among others) have pointed out numerous occasions where Judyth has made claims that are simply not true. And even Fetzer has admitted that she's prone to embellishment. She can't be trusted. So, if all you have to go on is her word, you've got nothing.

[Stephen Roy]

SR says:

Knock off the condescension until your familiarity with the New Orleans evidence equals mine.

Roy seems to equate having information with having a process for weighing and evaluating it, not to mention a need to share it. He has kept his information close to his chest for all this time. It's just a guessing game as to what Roy has or does not have, as he is not being forthcoming. So how is anyone to know what Roy understands or does not understand about NOLA (particularly because he insists on keeping his blinders firmly in place).

Don't force us to say, 'put up or shut up'. :-0

You missed the point. I was saying something uncharacteristic of me to...make a point.

[Bernice Moore]

I have great respect for you Dr.Jim as well as your work that you provide so willingly, therefore also your decisions and beliefs, you have found within yourself to believe that all Judith has stated and what documents etc that she has provided to you as being sufficient to draw your conclusion that she is the real deal as you have mentioned..and that is your prerogative and as I say i respect such...what you have posted for us and she had supplied to you, we, many, have seen in the past except for the one photo which was new to me, they were posted at Rich's as well as at the lancer forums in the past, and i believe they are still there within RICH'S archives, they were some months back,,..a part of me wishes he had been here during this long stressful thread , but then another does not ,as i know he would have been extremely upset at some of what has been said and has occurred, '' and as JFK said

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal.

we are all mortal, therefore we all at times make mistakes, move too quickly, act before contemplating and so on,

John F. Kennedy, Speech at The American University, Washington, D.C., June 10, 1963

Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings.

John F. Kennedy, speech at The American University, Washington, D.C., June 10, 1963

and Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man but we lost him before he had the chance to teach us how.and we still stumble each and every day.... and my favourite ''

So, let us not be blind to our differences - but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved.

John F. Kennedy

we human beings are AT most times our own worse enemies, not just within the research as i have thought at times. We fly off the handle, before we think, my old granny used to say to me as well as my bro, if you cannot say anything nice, do not say anything, well our mother picked it up and for years that was the daily reminder,as we left for school, as ''Mr dobs in the movie 'Harvey'' states, words to the effect, '' in this world you can be oh so smart or oh so pleasant, he then says well I ,,.was oh so smart for many years, and i recommend being oh so pleasant''...all we must do, I believe is put others before ourselves, their thoughts and feelings...IMO...

As i believe and hope i made clear i have read Ed's books,and each post here, as well as studying and reading some thousands of posts during the 12 years or so at the alts in following as the information,as it was made available and her previous set of books and have her new one on order,the DVDs and Cd's that were made available were obtained , as well as many others we took the time to peruse as much as possible and also went to the expense of having all, plus the black op radio DVD.. i did find them all of great interest, and informative but also within Ed's and Judyth's books I was disappointed as many others were that there was not the documented proof that was available to him at that time and he chose not to supply,nor the documentation she had promised, i must now being human wonder if ED ever did try or make any effort to.find the proof, .perhaps as Kathy has supplied the link to the N.O city archives it is not too late.someone may be able to bring forth the information needed..the proof is in the pudding as they say,and these are his books and his puddings to prove..i cannot blame anyone for not believing what they cannot see in the way of documentation, we as researchers have been taught and inundated very early on, that that is a must, the final piece for whatever is to be accepted as a given, he and she as well as others are very aware of that fact..as far as JudYth being in N.O AT THE TIME OF LHO THAT WAS ACCEPTED AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT SHE WAS AN EXTREMELY GIFTED YOUNG WOMAN IN SCIENCE also is a given..and that they SHE AND LHO worked at REILLYS AT THE SAME TIME ALSO, AND IMO THAT SHE HAS PROVEN , BUT NO MORE AND NO LESS...NEITHER HAS ED HASLAM..I WISH SHE AND HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO SUPPLY THE DOCUMENTATION FOR ALL THE REST BUT THAT WAS NOT TO BE, perhaps at some date in the future he will be able to provide further.SO THEREFORE WE AS INDIVIDUALS MUST DECIDE FOR OURSELVES EXACTLY HOW MUCH WE WILL BELIEVE HONESTLY IN WHAT HAS BEEN STATED AS TRUTH, SOME APPARENTLY WILL,ACCEPT IT AS BEING ENOUGH, SOME WILL NOT, THAT IS VERY HUMAN. AND To each their own, as it is and should be..AFTER STUDYING AND READING ALL THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO the JFK-assassination-related parts of her account simply do not pass the smell test for me. that is my decision I am very hopeful as you have made mention of perhaps in the future old friendships will be able to be mended and put again on a solid footing..i realized many pages ago how stressful this all was for you and that many were feeling the stress of this terribly contentious, long thread,

and for all who have worked together for so long and or perhaps quietly supporting whom they consider their peers within the JFK research studies such as WELL AS others who believe in your work, that you have so willingly shared and made available, even some who disagree with your findings as well, were feeling the stress of this terrible up heaving long thread,and there are as we know a relative few i believe, who were happy to see such, too bad, their most earnest wishes will not take place and the group as called at times by others will not and has not disintegrated within harsh meaningless words..

“I realized many pages ago how stressful this must be for you, and that others must be feeling stressed also by this terribly contentious, long thread, such as Dean who admires you, and others who believe in the work . Of course, no doubt others were happy to see harsh words used. JFK told us that we are all human, which we certainly are, in spades. The old phrase comes to mind: to err is human, to forgive devine.

---

..I THANK YOU KIND SIR FOR YOUR REPLY AND YOUR THOUGHTFULNESS THAT YOU HAVE EXPRESSED WITHIN..AND WISH YOU AND YOURS ALL THE VERY BEST.

NOW, IF POSSIBLE, FOR HEAVENS SAKE,CAN WE ALL GET BACK TO THE BUSINESS OF RESEARCH

------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------

THE PLAY PERHAPS HAS ENDED AND ALL SHOULD PERHAPS TAKE A BREAK AND A REST, AND THEN CARRY ON AND GET BACK TO THEIR WORK AND ALLOW THIS THREAD TO QUIETLY REST, HOPEFULLY, THE SHOW IS OVER, ME THINKS MORE THAN ENOUGH HAS BEEN SAID

I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING FURTHER THAT SHOULD BE POSTED HERE IMO..

PERHAPS WE ALL COULD, LET THE SLEEPING RESEARCHERS LIE PLEASE.FOR AWHILE.....IF ANYONE MUST SAY ANYTHING FURTHER RELATED TO THE INFORMATION AND OR THE JUDYTH STUDIES,THAT IS WORTHY OF SUCH,, PERHAPS YOU COULD START A NEW THREAD ON A NEW NON-CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC.

AGAIN THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT YOU DO..AS WELL AS TO EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU ON THIS FORUM.FOR YOUR WORK AND CONTRIBUTIONS.IT TAKES A VILLAGE..

. THANK YOU ALL..KINDLY AND TAKE GOOD CARE...PS AND A THANK YOU TO JOHN SIMKIN FOR ALLOWING THIS LONG DEBATE...PS... PLEASE EXCUSE AGAIN THE CAPS,IT WAS VERY EARLY IN THE DAY FOR ME WHEN I BEGAN TRYING TO COMPOSE THIS REPLY.. AGAIN VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT...B

Edited April 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

No, I had a hundred conversations with Madeleine Duncan Brown. I have had hundreds of emails from Judyth, the majority of which I have posted on this thread. Let's consider how reasonable is the proposal you are floating. The first post in this thread went up on February 28th. I probably contributed new posts every day since. There are now more than 1,500. You want an "instant replay" when Judyth's book, ME & LEE, which is chock full of new documents and records, is about to appear. So we do an instant replay NOW and, when her book appears with new evidence, we can do another instant replay THEN? I am sorry, but if anyone has given away their intention to make cheap shots, it is you. If you want an instant reply now, do it yourself. I am sorry, but I gave at the office.

Ha! you have time to have- what did you say? hundreds?- of conversations with judyth and you have written thousands and thousands of words here attempting to advance her ridiculous claims and you have never missed an opportunity to attack people (like Stephen roy and Dean Hagerman and so on) but when i ask you to offer up any evidence to back up what you call one of "the most important and best supported" elements of judyth's story you- darn the luck!- just don't have the time to do i. that's ridiculous. you don't offer evidence because you don't have it. and we both know it.

Believe it or not, I have a life apart from this forum. With Judyth's book about

to appear, what godly purpose could be achieved by an instant replay at this

point in time? Your request, under these conditions, is entirely unreasonable.

You want to question my sincerity in doing all of this? Be my guest! Unreal.

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Kevin Greenlee,

I gave you a very appropriate response. Between DR. MARY'S MONKEY and

ME & LEE, there should be the opportunity to do this all over again! Think of

it--a reprise of the longest thread in the forum's history, where you appear to

have learned next to nothing. I am sorry, but your insinuations are the kind

intended to excuse you or any others of your ilk from serious research on the

subject, when this exercise has provided massive opportunities to learn and

explore the evidence. If you blew it, that's not my fault, but your own failing.

Jim

mr fetzer-

i appreciate your response.

can you allow me to make an observation or three?

as i've indicated before, i have read this thread and i also have made myself with judyth's story as it's been offered in other venues. the only "evidence" i have seen which backs up most of your 17 points is "because judyth said so." i do not find that particularly compelling and was hoping you could offer something more substantial.

even though- as you said- some of your points have more backing than others you said in a recent message that the fact that Judyth was "induced to come to New orleans by Alton ochsner" was among "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points. i imagined then that you had plenty to say about it. apparently that's not the case.

throughout this thread, it seems to me you have fairly consistently been frustrated by how critics have focused on what you feel are trivial aspects of judyth's story. i believed then that you would welcome the opportunity to shift the attention to what you believe are the essentials of her tale. those 17 points, after all, were created by a judyth supporter. since an ally created that rhetorical battleground (and you trumpeted it), i assumed you would be ready- even eager- to defend it. instead, you seem more interested in going back to arguing trivia (ie, the location of a linear accelerator). this is, of course, your right. but it certainly does create the impression that you are unable to back up what you say are the crucial elements of the story you have been so strenuously defending for the last couple of months. and if you cannot back up one of "the most important and best supported" of the 17 points it makes me wonder just how weak and flimsy the other 16 most be.

thanks again for the response.

Edited April 22, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Glenn Viklund]

[

I believe that what one says is true unless proven otherwise.

in other words, dean believes the story because judyth told it to him. not a very rigorous standard! and also a problematic one.

if the evidence of this story is judyth's own word then our belief in the tale rises or falls with what we make of her personal credibility. Barb and Glenn (among others) have pointed out numerous occasions where Judyth has made claims that are simply not true. And even Fetzer has admitted that she's prone to embellishment. She can't be trusted. So, if all you have to go on is her word, you've got nothing.

Kevin,

That, indeed, sums it up rather nicely.

GV

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Bernice,

You are a dear and I have great affection for you. That cannot be said of many others who are piling on at this late stage in the evolution of this forum. I have done my best to present Judyth's case because I believe in her. There is no way I can transfer the reasoning ability and evaluation of the evidence that has led me to my position, but I am convinced both logically and psychologically that she is genuine. I have seen her anguish over misrepresentations of her position and take the time to correct me when I was mistaken about some point, even when it was not flattering to her. If this woman is not "the real deal", then I have no understanding of human nature. I have done my best to explain the reasons why I, Nigel Turner, Ed Haslam, Jim Marrs, Howard Platzman, "60 Minutes", Wim Dankbaar, and many others, including Dean Hartwell, Pamela McElwain-Brown, Karl Kinaski, and Linda Minor, have come to believe in her. We are a diverse group but not a gullible group. There have been so many cheap shots taken here since I tried to bring this thread to an end several hundred posts ago--around post #1,200!--but it hasn't happened. With Judyth's book about to appear, which will provide new documents, records, and other data, I can't imagine any good reason to continue with this thread. It has long since become the longest in the forum's history. I have appreciated those who have taken the subject seriously, especially Michael Hogan, who has been the most astute among those who are probing for more. As for most of the rest, their adamant unwillingness to consider new evidence and adjust their degrees of belief accordingly has been stunning. The method of tenacity clearly prevails on this thread, which is unfortunate but has something to do with the threat that Judyth Vary Bakes poses to what the agency is willing for the pubic to learn, not only about Lee H. Oswald, the alleged assassin, but about cancer research and the development of a bio-weapon, which appears to be so secret that, even when the CIA decides to release its "family jewels", the first--which was dated around the time of these developments in New Orleans--had been redacted. There were eight, but only the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth were released to the public. Think about it. Judyth's story has the potential to broaden awareness of some of the deepest secrets in the history of the CIA! That is simply astounding and is no doubt related to its potential to further reveal a host of issues about covert ops in New Orleans, the infected polio vaccine that was mandated for 100,000,000 children even though NIH knew better, and the development of cancer as a bio weapon! One day some of those who were here may well come realize that they were wrong in opposing Judyth. But that will almost certainly require the passage of time and learning more about her. ME & LEE affords the perfect opportunity! Good luck! And enjoy!

Jim

I have great respect for you Dr.Jim as well as your work that you provide so willingly, therefore also your decisions and beliefs, you have found within yourself to believe that all Judith has stated and what documents etc that she has provided to you as being sufficient to draw your conclusion that she is the real deal as you have mentioned..and that is your prerogative and as I say i respect such...what you have posted for us and she had supplied to you, we, many, have seen in the past except for the one photo which was new to me, they were posted at Rich's as well as at the lancer forums in the past, and i believe they are still there within RICH'S archives, they were some months back,,..a part of me wishes he had been here during this long stressful thread , but then another does not ,as i know he would have been extremely upset at some of what has been said and has occurred, '' and as JFK said

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal.

we are all mortal, therefore we all at times make mistakes, move too quickly, act before contemplating and so on,

John F. Kennedy, Speech at The American University, Washington, D.C., June 10, 1963

Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings.

John F. Kennedy, speech at The American University, Washington, D.C., June 10, 1963

and Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man but we lost him before he had the chance to teach us how.and we still stumble each and every day.... and my favourite ''

So, let us not be blind to our differences - but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved.

John F. Kennedy

we human beings are AT most times our own worse enemies, not just within the research as i have thought at times. We fly off the handle, before we think, my old granny used to say to me as well as my bro, if you cannot say anything nice, do not say anything, well our mother picked it up and for years that was the daily reminder,as we left for school, as ''Mr dobs in the movie 'Harvey'' states, words to the effect, '' in this world you can be oh so smart or oh so pleasant, he then says well I ,,.was oh so smart for many years, and i recommend being oh so pleasant''...all we must do, I believe is put others before ourselves, their thoughts and feelings...IMO...

As i believe and hope i made clear i have read Ed's books,and each post here, as well as studying and reading some thousands of posts during the 12 years or so at the alts in following as the information,as it was made available and her previous set of books and have her new one on order,the DVDs and Cd's that were made available were obtained , as well as many others we took the time to peruse as much as possible and also went to the expense of having all, plus the black op radio DVD.. i did find them all of great interest, and informative but also within Ed's and Judyth's books I was disappointed as many others were that there was not the documented proof that was available to him at that time and he chose not to supply,nor the documentation she had promised, i must now being human wonder if ED ever did try or make any effort to.find the proof, .perhaps as Kathy has supplied the link to the N.O city archives it is not too late.someone may be able to bring forth the information needed..the proof is in the pudding as they say,and these are his books and his puddings to prove..i cannot blame anyone for not believing what they cannot see in the way of documentation, we as researchers have been taught and inundated very early on, that that is a must, the final piece for whatever is to be accepted as a given, he and she as well as others are very aware of that fact..as far as JudYth being in N.O AT THE TIME OF LHO THAT WAS ACCEPTED AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT SHE WAS AN EXTREMELY GIFTED YOUNG WOMAN IN SCIENCE also is a given..and that they SHE AND LHO worked at REILLYS AT THE SAME TIME ALSO, AND IMO THAT SHE HAS PROVEN , BUT NO MORE AND NO LESS...NEITHER HAS ED HASLAM..I WISH SHE AND HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO SUPPLY THE DOCUMENTATION FOR ALL THE REST BUT THAT WAS NOT TO BE, perhaps at some date in the future he will be able to provide further.SO THEREFORE WE AS INDIVIDUALS MUST DECIDE FOR OURSELVES EXACTLY HOW MUCH WE WILL BELIEVE HONESTLY IN WHAT HAS BEEN STATED AS TRUTH, SOME APPARENTLY WILL,ACCEPT IT AS BEING ENOUGH, SOME WILL NOT, THAT IS VERY HUMAN. AND To each their own, as it is and should be..AFTER STUDYING AND READING ALL THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO the JFK-assassination-related parts of her account simply do not pass the smell test for me. that is my decision I am very hopeful as you have made mention of perhaps in the future old friendships will be able to be mended and put again on a solid footing..i realized many pages ago how stressful this all was for you and that many were feeling the stress of this terribly contentious, long thread,

and for all who have worked together for so long and or perhaps quietly supporting whom they consider their peers within the JFK research studies such as Dean and others who admire you so, as well as others who believe in your work, that you have so willingly shared and made available, even some who disagree with your findings as well, were feeling the stress of this terrible up heaving long thread,and there are as we know a relative few i believe, who were happy to see such, too bad, their most earnest wishes will not take place and the group as called at times by others will not and has not disintegrated within harsh meaningless words..

“I realized many pages ago how stressful this must be for you, and that others must be feeling stressed also by this terribly contentious, long thread, such as Dean who admires you, and others who believe in the work that you have so willingly made available to others. Some who disagree with your statements must also have felt much stress. Of course, no doubt others were happy to see harsh words used. JFK told us that we are all human, which we certainly are, in spades. The old phrase comes to mind: to err is human, to forgive devine.

---

..I THANK YOU KIND SIR FOR YOUR REPLY AND YOUR THOUGHTFULNESS THAT YOU HAVE EXPRESSED WITHIN..AND WISH YOU AND YOURS ALL THE VERY BEST.

NOW, IF POSSIBLE, FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE,CAN WE ALL GET BACK TO THE BUSINESS OF RESEARCH

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THE PLAY PERHAPS HAS ENDED AND ALL SHOULD PERHAPS TAKE A BREAK AND A REST, AND THEN CARRY ON AND GET BACK TO THEIR WORK AND ALLOW THIS THREAD TO QUIETLY REST, HOPEFULLY, THE SHOW IS OVER, ME THINKS MORE THAN ENOUGH HAS BEEN SAID

I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING FURTHER THAT SHOULD BE POSTED HERE

PERHAPS WE ALL COULD, LET THE SLEEPING RESEARCHERS LIE PLEASE...IF ANYONE MUST SAY ANYTHING FURTHER RELATED TO THE INFORMATION AND OR THE JUDY TH STUDIES,THAT IS WORTHY OF SUCH,, PERHAPS YOU COULD START A NEW THREAD ON A NEW NON-CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC.

THANK YOU KINDLY FOR ALL THAT YOU DO..AS WELL AS TO EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU ON THIS FORUM.FOR YOUR WORK AND CONTRIBUTIONS.IT TAKES A VILLAGE...

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. THANK YOU ALL..KINDLY AND TAKE GOOD CARE...PS AND A THANK YOU TO JOHN SIMKIN FOR ALLOWING THIS LONG DEBATE...PS... PLEASE EXCUSE AGAIN THE CAPS,IT WAS VERY EARLY IN THE DAY FOR ME WHEN I BEGAN TRYING TO COMPOSE THIS REPLY.. AGAIN VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT...B

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[David G. Healy]

Stephen,

Shame on you for asking Fetzer for anything resembling accurate evidence. When his greatness speaks you are to follow BLINDLY please try to remember this in the future.

Mike

Now *that* is a demonstrable truth, Mike!

Funny thing about facts ... those who have them, use them. And aren't the least bit shy about whipping them out. Those who don't have them ...

Bests,

Barb :-)

NOW we know why, trolls and provocateur's we're asked to leave JFKResearch. Must be the aversion to research, research that flies in the face of the WCR exhibits, testimony, films, photos.... Research of the unpopular variety.....

No one that I've encountered, after all these years, are scared of facts! Alleged facts, now that's a different story. WCR facts and factoids? Pfffffht!

[Kathleen Collins]

THE END