Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Dixie Dea]

Greg...now that you mentioned year 2001 that she joined, I am now thinking you are correct about that. It was just that some of us had already heard about her in 2000 and had started discussing her there, before she ever joined. I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't. Yet, I feel we got too carried away.

I am also not very interested in such romance stories.....it all reminds me if those silly True Confessions Magazines, I use to read as a teenager....yet, I thought they were silly even then.

Yes, I do believe we are talking about the same woman that got banned, but not over Judyth.

Dixie

[Karl Kinaski]

I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't.

Well, is that the last remaining argument of the Judyth bashing group? I DID NOT BELIEVE HER THEN AND STILL DON'T ??? A bit poor.

If Jusyths Story is false, there must be another, and even better explanation of all those coincidences of her life and the life of Lee Oswald in that summer 1963 in N.O.

But...there is non.

So what we are talking about?

If someone got a better explanation...come forward. But don't keep saying: I can't prove false the key facts she is providing, but I did not believe her then, and still don't. It is a bit like the germans after WW 2. The couldn't believe, there was an Auschwitz. The story was to big for there brains to accept.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Dixie, Jack, Greg ...

I was "exiled" from Rich's forum before Judyth ever emerged as a "witness" which I believe was late '99 or early 2000. I think it was 1998 or 1999 (I know it was before November 1999, for sure) when myself and several others were banished. Greg Jaynes, Bill Hamley, me, Steve Bochan ... and a couple others pretty much went at the same time, within days of one another anyway. My sin was challenging Jack. Steve Bochan was warned by the "sargeant-at-arms" that if he didn't lose his sig line, he would be banished. His sig line was simply a statement urging all citizens to avail themselves of the documents and resources available to all at the National Archives. The "sarge" thought that "arrogant" and "elitist" as he (unbelievably) didn't know that one did not have to actually be able to go to the Archives in person to obtain documents from there. All coming back now, "Sarge"? :-) Anyway, it was such silliness.

I don't know when Judyth was on Rich's forum nor do I know why she was banished. I was not there, nor was I involved in Judyth discussions before about 2004 ... at least according to posts I can find on google. I seem to recall being involved for at least a post or two earlier .... involving Cancun and Lifton ... I was a moderator and it had something to do with that and I posted something on what was going on. Other than that, I was Judyth-free until sometime in 2004 as best I can recall and what I can find on google.

And, Jack, I think your memory is pretty darn good on several Judyth observations you have made about her story. There have been many changes to her story over the years. And she is adding several new things never seen in the last 10 years in the things she is googling, copying and pasting and sending comments for Fetzer to post here. As Bill Kelly noted ... that includes the bogus document. Doesn't Fetzer pay any attention? Like you, Jack, and I posted as much, I decided to avoid this thread as much as possible. But I couldn't ignore the latest thinly veiled ... and incorrect ... comments by Greg.

I laughed when I read Greg's comment that he can verify Judyth's claimed length of conversation on Nov 20th is the same as it was as years ago when he spoke to her. Bully Sure, the time has stayed the same .... but the entire conversation ... which was originally a real romance novel tear jerker ... was completely different when her book came out, a totally different scenario and discussion. Mere scraps of the original appear in the book now attributed to a different phone call a couple days earlier.

And, also Jack ... you are dang right ... my findings on Judyth's claims are well documented, with links to catalogs, and articles, and to the annual reports of foundations and institutions she claims she received funding from, and emails with contact info and phone info for other places and people I received information from. Anyone can check the info I received and posted. That's the way I roll. It would be dishonest ... not to mention stupid ... to put info with names and e addresses, phone numbers, names and places out there that anybody could check if not absolutely accurate. And I am neither dishonest nor stupid.

Paid disinfo agent? Pppfffflllllt. Silly. I've always thought that if one leans toward there being such a thing (and I never have), that the least likely suspect would be the most likely candidate, in my opinion. I would look to the ones who essentially post nothing but garbage that results in disrupting and obfuscating discussion, who never present documented evidence, but instead, blather on with nonsense and pointing at others as "suspects" -- which serves to not only disrupt real discussion and prevent any progress, but to make all CTs look like crazies to the mainstream world. Honest disagreement, debate and downright argument on the issues and evidence can be quite constructive, casting aspersions, breeding contempt and divisiveness from within is destructive.

At any rate, so much for this not - so - veiled woman being referred to ... and having a totally incorrect circumstance recalled and applied to her by Greg. Dixie was correct, it was an entirely different issue that resulted in me being banished ... and that took place before any of us had the pleasure of hearing Judyth's story.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

Thanks, Dixie...you may be correct. Ten year old memories are hard to rebuild. I was trying

to recall main points. Who said what/when is hard to recall. But I do know that Rich had far

more "off-forum" contact with JVB than the rest of us, because he told me. He tried to get

her to write down her story and she would not, which left him very frustrated. Over nine

months or so, he discovered numerous inconsistencies in her tales. I do remember that

the strongest defenders were Shackleford, Vernon, and Dankbaar. And I do remember all

of the abusive postings, attacking doubters. I received many abusive private emails from

Dankbaar. I remember Rich asking everyone to be patient while he tried to get the JVB

story from her; he gave her every opportunity to tell her story, but she kept dodging and

ducking. Rich was VERY FAIR to her.

I am fairly certain about the stories of the 24-hour washateria across from the rooming

house and the nightly calls from the pay phone there, including the one the night before

the assassination, and the tearful goodbyes when LHO said that he might not survive the

next day.

Thanks for your rememberances. They may be better than mine.

Jack

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie

[Pamela Brown]

I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't.

Well, is that the last remaining argument of the Judyth bashing group? I DID NOT BELIEVE HER THEN AND STILL DON'T ??? A bit poor.

If Jusyths Story is false, there must be another, and even better explanation of all those coincidences of her life and the life of Lee Oswald in that summer 1963 in N.O.

But...there is non.

So what we are talking about?

If someday got a better explanation...come forward. But don't keep saying: I can't prove false the key facts she is providing, but I did not believe her then, and still don't. It is a bit like the germans after WW 2. The couldn't believe, there was an Auschwitz. The story was to big for there brains to accept.

Judyth's statements have been complicated by the traps set for her by those out to destroy her credibility. In response to that, I think, she became a whiz researcher, adding new information and complicating things further. An effective process to use in this kind of situation is not to 'believe' or 'disbelieve' but to weigh and evaluate her statements, comparing and contrasting them to other information and witness statements that already exist. Marina's statements are valuable in this regard; we can see that when Marina was hurt and mystified that she didn't know where Lee was during the summer of 1963 in NOLA, and put off by the fact that Lee didn't even tell her he had been fired from Reily for two weeks; Judyth provides an explanation of where he was and what was going on. Adele Edison has come forward without the strife and attacks that Judyth faced, probably because her testimony is more tangential to the assassination and does not threaten the WCR, discussing things in NOLA that parallel in some respects what Judyth has said.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Pamela McElwain-Brown

[Jack White]

Monk...your memories may be better than mine, especially about certain things. But my memory is very

clear about abusive messages (lots of emails, as well as forum postings) from JVB and Dankbaar. Vernon

was never abusive that I remember. I think Shack also sent lots of emails, but not abusive. It was a

campaign like BELIEVE US, OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES. And I am sure that you remember the

TWO HACKINGS which DOWNED THE FORUM. Rich told me in emails that HE TRACED THE HACKINGS TO

AN ISP IN AMSTERDAM.

Thanks for your remembrances. It is hard to reconstruction something this old.

Jack

Hi Dixie,

I'm relatively certain that I met with Judyth in early 2001. This was BEFORE she came on the forum for the first time. I could be wrong about the year without checking my notes, but I am certain that I met with her prior to her joining the forum. I agree that she was not banned, but rather chose to disengage from the xxxx storm. You are correct about Martin, as well as Vernon.

I agree with your assessment that "she wasn't abusive" but was abused. I found it quite uncharacteristic of the JFKresearch Forum, but it happened.

I don't think that the three of us (you, me and Jack) are referring to the same person who was banned. I refer to someone who is not as well known, and hasn't been suspected of disinfo. This person crossed WAY over the line regarding Judyth, but was actually banned regarding something else, although it was a cumulative effect...

GO_SECURE

monk

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie

[Jack White]

Thanks for your remembrances. My only comment is that I do not recall Rich ever having MODERATORS.

I appreciate your recall that my remembrances of the laundromat phone calls is essentially correct.

I think I am correct, since I thought the idea of long long-distance PAY phone calls nightly was absurd.

Pay phones back then required dropping coins in the phone EVERY THREE MINUTES or the line was

disconnected! I remember making a pay phone call long distance back in the 60s while on a trip,

and I had to drop 5 quarters in the slot before the call went through, and then more quarters after

the first three minutes. On that basis alone, the laundromat calls were unlikely for the poor LHO.

Jack

Dixie, Jack, Greg ...

I was "exiled" from Rich's forum before Judyth ever emerged as a "witness" which I believe was late '99 or early 2000. I think it was 1998 or 1999 (I know it was before November 1999, for sure) when myself and several others were banished. Greg Jaynes, Bill Hamley, me, Steve Bochan ... and a couple others pretty much went at the same time, within days of one another anyway. My sin was challenging Jack. Steve Bochan was warned by the "sargeant-at-arms" that if he didn't lose his sig line, he would be banished. His sig line was simply a statement urging all citizens to avail themselves of the documents and resources available to all at the National Archives. The "sarge" thought that "arrogant" and "elitist" as he (unbelievably) didn't know that one did not have to actually be able to go to the Archives in person to obtain documents from there. All coming back now, "Sarge"? :-) Anyway, it was such silliness.

I don't know when Judyth was on Rich's forum nor do I know why she was banished. I was not there, nor was I involved in Judyth discussions before about 2004 ... at least according to posts I can find on google. I seem to recall being involved for at least a post or two earlier .... involving Cancun and Lifton ... I was a moderator and it had something to do with that and I posted something on what was going on. Other than that, I was Judyth-free until sometime in 2004 as best I can recall and what I can find on google.

And, Jack, I think your memory is pretty darn good on several Judyth observations you have made about her story. There have been many changes to her story over the years. And she is adding several new things never seen in the last 10 years in the things she is googling, copying and pasting and sending comments for Fetzer to post here. As Bill Kelly noted ... that includes the bogus document. Doesn't Fetzer pay any attention? Like you, Jack, and I posted as much, I decided to avoid this thread as much as possible. But I couldn't ignore the latest thinly veiled ... and incorrect ... comments by Greg.

I laughed when I read Greg's comment that he can verify Judyth's claimed length of conversation on Nov 20th is the same as it was as years ago when he spoke to her. Bully Sure, the time has stayed the same .... but the entire conversation ... which was originally a real romance novel tear jerker ... was completely different when her book came out, a totally different scenario and discussion. Mere scraps of the original appear in the book now attributed to a different phone call a couple days earlier.

And, also Jack ... you are dang right ... my findings on Judyth's claims are well documented, with links to catalogs, and articles, and to the annual reports of foundations and institutions she claims she received funding from, and emails with contact info and phone info for other places and people I received information from. Anyone can check the info I received and posted. That's the way I roll. It would be dishonest ... not to mention stupid ... to put info with names and e addresses, phone numbers, names and places out there that anybody could check if not absolutely accurate. And I am neither dishonest nor stupid.

Paid disinfo agent? Pppfffflllllt. Silly. I've always thought that if one leans toward there being such a thing (and I never have), that the least likely suspect would be the most likely candidate, in my opinion. I would look to the ones who essentially post nothing but garbage that results in disrupting and obfuscating discussion, who never present documented evidence, but instead, blather on with nonsense and pointing at others as "suspects" -- which serves to not only disrupt real discussion and prevent any progress, but to make all CTs look like crazies to the mainstream world. Honest disagreement, debate and downright argument on the issues and evidence can be quite constructive, casting aspersions, breeding contempt and divisiveness from within is destructive.

At any rate, so much for this not - so - veiled woman being referred to ... and having a totally incorrect circumstance recalled and applied to her by Greg. Dixie was correct, it was an entirely different issue that resulted in me being banished ... and that took place before any of us had the pleasure of hearing Judyth's story.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

Thanks for your assessment. I agree with some of the things you say.

Let me say that I am not a part of any "Judyth bashing group". I study and evaluate evidence. Much of her

story is confusing and contradictory and all of it is lacking in credible documentation.

Based on all I have read, I believe that she was some sort of low-level CIA asset who may have been

inserted into the "holding pattern" of such assets at Reily. She likely had no idea of what use was being

made of her...very similar to LHO. I believe that Reily was a place where "assets" like LHO and JVB

were "parked" while handlers controlled them. I believe that JVB's "assignment" was unrelated to the

JFK affair, but MAY have been medically related, as she was led to believe...since that was her field

of expertise. But I think it unlikely that LHO was her partner in medical work. LHO WAS IN NOLA ON

AN ASSIGNMENT CREATING A LEGEND FOR A PATSY FOR THE ASSASSINATION. His assignment was

to appear to be a Castro sympathizer...FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA! This was to frame him for his Dallas

assignment.

Jack

I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't.

Well, is that the last remaining argument of the Judyth bashing group? I DID NOT BELIEVE HER THEN AND STILL DON'T ??? A bit poor.

If Jusyths Story is false, there must be another, and even better explanation of all those coincidences of her life and the life of Lee Oswald in that summer 1963 in N.O.

But...there is non.

So what we are talking about?

If someday got a better explanation...come forward. But don't keep saying: I can't prove false the key facts she is providing, but I did not believe her then, and still don't. It is a bit like the germans after WW 2. The couldn't believe, there was an Auschwitz. The story was to big for there brains to accept.

Judyth's statements have been complicated by the traps set for her by those out to destroy her credibility. In response to that, I think, she became a whiz researcher, adding new information and complicating things further. An effective process to use in this kind of situation is not to 'believe' or 'disbelieve' but to weigh and evaluate her statements, comparing and contrasting them to other information and witness statements that already exist. Marina's statements are valuable in this regard; we can see that when Marina was hurt and mystified that she didn't know where Lee was during the summer of 1963 in NOLA, and put off by the fact that Lee didn't even tell her he had been fired from Reily for two weeks; Judyth provides an explanation of where he was and what was going on. Adele Edison has come forward without the strife and attacks that Judyth faced, probably because her testimony is more tangential to the assassination and does not threaten the WCR, discussing things in NOLA that parallel in some respects what Judyth has said.

[Dixie Dea]

Karl.......You just do not know what you are talking about! You are also out of line to tell me what I should or should not believe...just as I would not do so with you either. If you do believe her, that is just fine with me...but I have that same right. I did not say that I could or could not prove anything and just merely made a comment rather then to get into my past sort of critical comments. I had decided to not do that anymore. Yet, for your information, I have been involved in this for over a decade. I have been on several forums with her and have had forum discussions with her, have read many posts by her, through the years, Also, read some emails from her to mutual friends, I have viewed her Videos and I did read her book and have her current one pre-ordered. I am able to have an opinion of my own, just as you do. I have read many of your posts on this forum, that I have agreed with.

Barb....Just so you know...Greg and I did not have you in mind as that banished woman from Rich's forum. I knew it wasn't you, he had in mind. Also, as far as I know you are the only one that has actually done any sort of real fact-checking. Some claim to have done so, but apparently it was facts that we alreday knew or didn't question anyway. There are some points to her story, that we do believe. However, apparently some just do not want to believe your fact checking findings, so it is denied or worse comments are made. We apparently have attempts at psychological intimidation going on, to try and shut us down.

Now this is for Judyth....I have noithing at all against you personally. As you have mentioned many times, I have not actually met or spoken to you. Although, I would have not been adverse to doing so. In fact, many of those you have met and spoken to, have told me that you are a nice woman. Is is just most of your claims, that I have a problem with believing. You have stated that you are a Medical Scientist...well, I have been involved in Behavorial Science. I am most definitely not aligned with a neferous group out to silence you. I do my own thinking and always have. However, since you are now on another forum, in which I am also a member.....I don't know if you have noticed or not, but I have not made any comment whatsoever. I finally decided that you do indeed have a right to tell your story, without interference, especially from me. I am now wanting to be fair, whether I do or don't believe a lot of your claims. I have tried very hard to not make any specific, what you refer to as attacks, on these last few posts I wrote and as a result, Karl attacked me for not doing so....of course he doesn't realize that we go back a long ways. Irregardless of anything else, I am about peace and not war. I don't even have the gift of debating ability. For sure, I could never be like an Attorney....lol

Dixie

[Jack White]

Thanks, Dixie, for your comments. I just wish the JVB book that has been promised for years

would finally be published. Then you and others can compare it both with what JVB has said

in previous years and with the official record. We need to know both any errors, and any

truth in her claims. I think she is a victim in this case of some sort of manipulation regarding

a covert project which she may not understand. I think it should be made clear that CHECKING

HER STORY FOR ACCURACY AND BELIEVABILITY should not be considered "Judyth Bashing."

I think that she BELIEVES everything she says...but her beliefs do not make them true.

If what she says is truth, it can withstand scrutiny.

Jack

Karl.......You just do not know what you are talking about! You are also out of line to tell me what I should or should not believe...just as I would not do so with you either. If you do believe her, that is just fine with me...but I have that same right. I did not say that I could or could not prove anything and just merely made a comment rather then to get into my past sort of critical comments. I had decided to not do that anymore. Yet, for your information, I have been involved in this for over a decade. I have been on several forums with her and have had forum discussions with her, have read many posts by her, through the years, Also, read some emails from her to mutual friends, I have viewed her Videos and I did read her book and have her current one pre-ordered. I am able to have an opinion of my own, just as you do. I have read many of your posts on this forum, that I have agreed with.

Barb....Just so you know...Greg and I did not have you in mind as that banished woman from Rich's forum. I knew it wasn't you, he had in mind. Also, as far as I know you are the only one that has actually done any sort of real fact-checking. Some claim to have done so, but apparently it was facts that we alreday knew or didn't question anyway. There are some points to her story, that we do believe. However, apparently some just do not want to believe your fact checking findings, so it is denied or worse comments are made. We apparently have attempts at psychological intimidation going on, to try and shut us down.

Now this is for Judyth....I have noithing at all against you personally. As you have mentioned many times, I have not actually met or spoken to you. Although, I would have not been adverse to doing so. In fact, many of those you have met and spoken to, have told me that you are a nice woman. Is is just most of your claims, that I have a problem with believing. You have stated that you are a Medical Scientist...well, I have been involved in Behavorial Science. I am most definitely not aligned with a neferous group out to silence you. I do my own thinking and always have. However, since you are now on another forum, in which I am also a member.....I don't know if you have noticed or not, but I have not made any comment whatsoever. I finally decided that you do indeed have a right to tell your story, without interference, especially from me. I am now wanting to be fair, whether I do or don't believe a lot of your claims. I have tried very hard to not make any specific, what you refer to as attacks, on these last few posts I wrote and as a result, Karl attacked me for not doing so....of course he doesn't realize that we go back a long ways. Irregardless of anything else, I am about peace and not war. I don't even have the gift of debating ability. For sure, I could never be like an Attorney....lol

Dixie

[Kathleen Collins]

Thanks for your remembrances. My only comment is that I do not recall Rich ever having MODERATORS.

Rich did have moderators. I was one of them. One night I screwed up by losing my temper -- in the category I was supposed to be moderating. My second expulsion from there. People thought I was an "agent provocateur." He called me the Manchurian Candidate. I'll always miss Rich.

Kathy C

[Dixie Dea]

Jack....Judyth already did have her long awaited, first book published. In fact, it was in two volums, one of which contained all of her Endnotes....which were numerous. Harry Livingstone published it through a print to read company. Sometimes that is the only way to do so. I did obtain the copies, but then she stopped the publication, becaus eit did not turn out as she had hoped. There again, there are descrepencies as to her reason and with Martin Shacklefords reasons. So this upcoming book is actually her second book. There were numerous inconsistencies from her forum post claims and in her first book.

Dixie

[John Dolva]

Like I said, it's the beta release.

edit: what I mean is something v1.6+, i still reckon it''s a sideswipe at Cuba.

Edited March 23, 2010 by John Dolva

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Monk,

Thanks for speaking up about Judyth and Rich's forum. She was not banned, but resigned because of (what she considered

to have been) her abusive treatment. From email I have seen, the attitude toward Judyth was quite hostile. I'm not quite

sure what it would mean if she had been banned, since Kathy has observed that she herself was expelled more than once!

Jim

Hi Dixie,

I'm relatively certain that I met with Judyth in early 2001. This was BEFORE she came on the forum for the first time. I could be wrong about the year without checking my notes, but I am certain that I met with her prior to her joining the forum. I agree that she was not banned, but rather chose to disengage from the xxxx storm. You are correct about Martin, as well as Vernon.

I agree with your assessment that "she wasn't abusive" but was abused. I found it quite uncharacteristic of the JFKresearch Forum, but it happened.

I don't think that the three of us (you, me and Jack) are referring to the same person who was banned. I refer to someone who is not as well known, and hasn't been suspected of disinfo. This person crossed WAY over the line regarding Judyth, but was actually banned regarding something else, although it was a cumulative effect...

GO_SECURE

monk

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

As opposed to the question of whether Judyth had been banned from Rich's forum, Kathy Collins raises a much more interesting question in this post.

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO KATHY COLLINS:

GENERAL RESPONSE:

This lady 'skims the thread' but anticipates that her insulting and careless insertion of all kinds of nasty things about Lee Oswald will provoke a response. She has either (1) not bothered to see the banned documentary, THE LOVE AFFAIR -- meaning that she is a lightweight posting here in the thread (even though she reveals extra knowledge, underlined below, that shows she has closely studied the case). In fact, her supposed ignorance that prompted the series of questions is therefore a non sequitur or else (2) she has seen THE LOVE AFFAIR but pretends she has not, for most of the answers to her queries are in that documentary. Either way, Kathy reveals hostility against both Oswald and me and has inserted herself pretending not to know much about what is going on. I doubt this because, even though I am blocked from accessing messages on the Education Forum for some reason, and have to have them sent to me to read, I have seen her name as she has been reading the thread. I also see Barb's name reading the thread, I went to the EF about twelve times before giving up having a chance to read more than one or two of the many messages before I get an 'under maintenance' page, saying the site is down... But I always can see "1 member, 1 guest" for example, at the bottom, even when I could not enter to see messages.. And the member's name is given. And Kathy HAS been reading the thread at least twice when I have also been there, just like Barb.

Her mention of Oswald being on TWO RADIO "SHOWS" (sic) is something only researchers generally know about (They were radio programs, but the word 'show' is a subtle way to demean the events, rhetorically speaking)... Her message is laced with rhetoric that instills hostility and prejudice against Oswald and also against me, yet she obviously knows a lot more than ordinary people about the case or would not know he was "drinking a coke" and so on... My comments below are in caps.

SPECIFIC REPLIES:

"What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life?"

SEE 'THE LOVE AFFAIR' AND RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT HE TOLD ME HE WAS PART OF AN 'ABORT TEAM' WHERE HE WAS NOT IN CHARGE, BUT HAD TO TAKE ORDERS. I REPORTED THAT FACT TO JIM MARRS AND OTHER RESEARCHERS OVER A DECADE AGO.

"How stupid was Oswald?"

[NOTE: I think Kathy meant this in the ordinary sense of, "Just how dumb could he have been (under the circumstances)?", where Judyth instead took it to be a question about his intelligence quotient. But Kathy no doubt meant it rhetorically.]

HIS IQ WAS MEASURED AT 118, WHICH IS BRIGHT -- BUT HIS UNDER THE OLD-FASHIONED IQ TESTS THAT DID NOT TAKE DYSLEXIA INTO ACCOUNT. IN A MODERN IQ TEST, I ESTIMATE HIS IQ, CORRECTED FOR DYSLEXIA, WAS 135. THAT IQ IS CONGRUENT WITH HIS KNOWN FACILITY IN RUSSIAN AND WAS SUFFICIENTLY COMPATIBLE WITH MY OWN.

"The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious?"

LEE OSWALD KNEW MORE ABOUT THE ROUTE THAN PEOPLE REALIZE. HE REPORTED A PORTION OF THE ROUTE TO ME, MENTIONING THAT IT WOULD BE MADE -- DELIBERATELY -- TO PASS THROUGH TURTLE CREEK AND MAKE A SHARP RIGHT, LESS THAN A BLOCK FROM 3525 TURTLE CREEK, THE TOWER WHERE MURCHISON, SR., AND MAYOR CABELL LIVED. I THEREFORE KNEW WHAT TO LOOK UP YEARS LATER -- AS LEE DESCRIBED THE 'TURN AT TURTLE CREEK'-- AS WHERE JFK'S ENEMIES MET -- AND FOUND OUT THE INFORMATION I NOW SHARE WITH ALL OF YOU, BELOW, INFORMATION THAT IS NEVER MENTIONED BY RESEARCHERS, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IN 40 YEARS OF INQUIRIES INTO THE DALLAS MURDER. I HAD WANTED TO GET THIS INFORMATION INTO THE UNAUTHORIZED BOOK PUBLISHED (BEFORE I COULD SEE THE GALLEYS) BY THE FINE RESEARCHER, HARRISON E. LIVINGSTONE, A DIFFICULT MAN TO DEAL WITH, BUT ONE WHO REALIZED THAT MY INFORMATION WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR HIM TO PUBLISH MY BOOK. HE DID SO IN A FORM I COULD NOT AUTHORIZE. I BRING THIS UP BECAUSE LIVINGSTONE'S ENDORSEMENT OF ME IS ALMOST NEVER MENTIONED.

THE SITE OF A MEETING CALLED "THE TROPHY MEETING": 3525 TURTLE CREEK

Democrat William A. Blakey served two incomplete terms in the U.S. Senate from Texas (1957, 1961) and was succeeded in 1961 by another 3525 Turtle Creek resident John Tower, first Republican U.S. Senator from Texas (1961-85).

Earle Cabell, mayor of Dallas (1961-64) and U.S. Congressmen from Texas (1965-73) lived in the building...Oil magnate Clint Murchison Sr. maintained an apartment on the 5th floor of 3525 Turtle Creek. His son of the same name founded the Dallas Cowboys....

http://www.3525turtlecreek.org/HTML/notables.htm

THEY HAD THE ROUTE GO THROUGH THERE DELIBERATELY AND EVEN TOOK PHOTOS AS THE CAVALCADE TURNED THERE.

I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT THIS INFORMATION. THANK YOU, KATHY. GOING ON WITH HER STATEMENT:

"Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?"

BRIEF REPLY:

"Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc."

==AN INTERVIEW AND A 'DEBATE' VIA RADIO ABOUT CUBA AND CASTRO WERE PARTS OF HIS ANI-FPCC 'PAINT FPCC RED' CAMPAIGN, AS HE WAS ORDERED TO DO BY THE CIA==

"Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red?"

==YES==

"He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?"

==HE FOLLOWED ORDERS==

"Now, what did he do to save Kennedy?"

==CHICAGO -- SEE ABRAHAM BOLDEN'S TESTIMONY IN DOUGLASS' EXEMPLARY BOOK, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE: WHY HE DIED AND WHY IT MATTERS==

[NOTE: My blog about Bolden, http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/01/ec...rview-with.html, also includes a two-hour interview with him on "The Real Deal", which is archived at http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com.]

"Stand there drinking a coke?"

==READ MY BOOK, KATHY. SEE THE DOCUMENTARY 'THE LOVE AFFAIR' WHEREIN NIGEL TURNER SQUEEZES IN A GREAT DEAL IN A FEW MINUTES. HE HAD OVER 24 HOURS OF GOOD FILM TO PICK FROM AND 38 HOURS OF PRIOR INTERVIEWS TO DOUBLE-CHECK EVERYTHING I SAID ON FILM. I PARTICIPATED WITHOUT REFERENCE TO A SINGLE NOTE OR EVEN A CALENDAR==

"If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting."

==ANSWER: WHY HE DIDN'T RUN OUT THERE AND YELL? -- MARINA. JUNE. RACHEL. ME. -- WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERED. HE TOLD ME SO. == BESIDES, HE DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WOULD BE IN DEALEY PLAZA OR AT THE TRADE MART==HE DID TELL ME THAT HE CONSIDERED MAKING A WARNING SHOT, WHICH WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HIM KILLED.

BUT HE EXPECTED TO BE SHOT DEAD, HE TOLD ME, AND THEN A RIFLE WOULD BE PLACED BESIDE HIM OR IN HIS HANDS. HE HAD TOLD ME HE WAS BETTER OFF DEAD TO THE CIA ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY COULD NEVER FULLY TRUST HIM AFTER RETURNING ALIVE FROM THE USSR. HE MIGHT HAVE 'TURNED' WITH BRAINWASHING....EVEN NOW, HE'S ACCUSED OF BEING MKU'D, AND I AM, TOO. BUT WE WERE NOT MKU'D...

WHAT A POSITION LEE OSWALD WAS IN.

I WONDER WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF MR. TRULY, WHO HAD BEEN TOLD THAT LEE WORKED FOR THE FBI (AND SO LEE WAS THEREBY FREED UP TO DO A LOT OF OTHER THINGS, JUST AS AT REILY'S) HAD NOT STOPPED THE POLICEMAN WHO SHOVED A REVOLVER AT LEE WHILE HE WAS 'DRINKING THE COKE.

==NOTE: LEE TOLD ME HE WAS FREE TO ROAM AWAY FROM THE TSBD WHEN NECESSARY. AND INDEED, RECORDS SHOW THAT LEE'S HOURS WERE BEING PLACED ON HIS TIME CARD WHETHER HE WAS THERE OR NOT, JUST AS AT REILY'S... BECAUSE ON NOV. 22, LEE OSWALD'S TIME CARD WAS FILLED OUT FOR THE WHOLE DAY -- IT SAID OSWALD WORKED A FULL DAY -- EVEN THOUGH LEE HAD BEEN ARRESTED AT THE TEXAS THEATER HOURS EARLIER.

I think this is the longest thread ever held in John Simkin's forum. I am skimming it, so I apologize if this question has been asked already.

So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

JVB

What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life? How stupid was Oswald? The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious? Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?

Now, what did he do to save Kennedy? Stand there drinking a coke? If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting.

Kathy C

Edited March 23, 2010 by James H. Fetzer