Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges

[David Josephs]

Exhibit 517 is the photo of the rifle still between the boxes. I use Boone as he specifically mentions the time the rifle was found yet incorrectly places the assassination at 1pm. "It was 1pm when we heard the shots" Simply trying to put the timeline in context.

Also to put Truly's statements into context - he is fairly sure Fritz is with the rifle and Truly's gone up there not too long after 1pm

Mr. BALL - The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL - What time was it?

Mr. BOONE - 1:22 p.m. in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL - 1 :22?

Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Mr. BALL - You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; I did.

Fritz arrives at 12:58

Hill with Boone and Mooney and someone else go up to the 7th and then down to the 6th floor right away

Over Alyea's film you can hear someone say "Gerry Hill just leaned out the window"

.. Is that Decker with Fritz walking in?

.. It cuts to street cops as Fritz goes in - the shadows are very long, at this point, or so it seems

.. at 24 seconds in they are just trampling all over that crime scene corner, they seem to be standing on the hulls

.. at 27/28/29 seconds it appears as if Fritz is holding a hull and while talking... watch the space between the 2 men and you can see his hand - don't see much of it - wish I could work with that video - I may have the mpg and will try tomorrow

I believe it is Gerry Hill who tells Sawyer when/where the hulls were found a minute or so before he radios in at 1:11pm.

Hill doesn't find the hulls, Mooney does

After Hill meets Fritz at the elevator - I place this about 1:07/1:08pm - he takes him over as the testimony says...

The hulls were found before Fritz arrives, before Hill shows him where and before Hill gets to the ground floor to meet with Sawyer, that's got to take a couple-few minutes, no?

Plus Hill takes a minute or so to speak with Lt Day...

Hill's WC testimony

Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.

So I hope you see that I don't think they waited very long at all... just took 4-7 minutes to get up there, find it, tell Fritz, tell Day, tell Sawyer and have it broadcast at 1:11pm. the rifle was found not too long after that.

Riddle me this batman

If someone fired and ejected the hulls as they were shooting... where was the clip?

Kidding aside... I think we can see that the hulls were found before 1:12 and Fritz may have just entered or had only recently entered the building when they were found. Truly puts the time even earlier. and then LATER, imo, boxes were stacked and moved and photographed and, and, and... it all becomes like comparing the xrays to the photos... pointless.

DJ

[Bernice Moore]

Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits rifle shells and envelope j.c day

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...absPageId=13461

[Mike Williams]

Exhibit 517 is the photo of the rifle still between the boxes. I use Boone as he specifically mentions the time the rifle was found yet incorrectly places the assassination at 1pm. "It was 1pm when we heard the shots" Simply trying to put the timeline in context.

Also to put Truly's statements into context - he is fairly sure Fritz is with the rifle and Truly's gone up there not too long after 1pm

Mr. BALL - The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL - What time was it?

Mr. BOONE - 1:22 p.m. in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL - 1 :22?

Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Mr. BALL - You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; I did.

Fritz arrives at 12:58

Hill with Boone and Mooney and someone else go up to the 7th and then down to the 6th floor right away

Over Alyea's film you can hear someone say "Gerry Hill just leaned out the window"

.. Is that Decker with Fritz walking in?

.. It cuts to street cops as Fritz goes in - the shadows are very long, at this point, or so it seems

.. at 24 seconds in they are just trampling all over that crime scene corner, they seem to be standing on the hulls

.. at 27/28/29 seconds it appears as if Fritz is holding a hull and while talking... watch the space between the 2 men and you can see his hand - don't see much of it - wish I could work with that video - I may have the mpg and will try tomorrow

I believe it is Gerry Hill who tells Sawyer when/where the hulls were found a minute or so before he radios in at 1:11pm.

Hill doesn't find the hulls, Mooney does

After Hill meets Fritz at the elevator - I place this about 1:07/1:08pm - he takes him over as the testimony says...

The hulls were found before Fritz arrives, before Hill shows him where and before Hill gets to the ground floor to meet with Sawyer, that's got to take a couple-few minutes, no?

Plus Hill takes a minute or so to speak with Lt Day...

Hill's WC testimony

Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.

So I hope you see that I don't think they waited very long at all... just took 4-7 minutes to get up there, find it, tell Fritz, tell Day, tell Sawyer and have it broadcast at 1:11pm. the rifle was found not too long after that.

Riddle me this batman

If someone fired and ejected the hulls as they were shooting... where was the clip?

Kidding aside... I think we can see that the hulls were found before 1:12 and Fritz may have just entered or had only recently entered the building when they were found. Truly puts the time even earlier. and then LATER, imo, boxes were stacked and moved and photographed and, and, and... it all becomes like comparing the xrays to the photos... pointless.

DJ

The clip was still in the rifle.

Interesting thoughts, let me look a bit more into this and see what I come up with. Looks as though those fellas might have been about as good at telling time, as they were anything else.

Pretty shoddy performance all in all, to say the least.

[Mike Williams]

Why would that be poor Lee? If in fact we are using the watch as a time stamp to verify important events, should we not consider the accuracy that represents?

Of course we should.

It's just something we'll never know Mike. We can never, ever, know if all of the watches and clocks used to time stamp information were fast, slow or accurate. I just didn't get your comment about 1963. It read like watches and clocks were less reliable in 1963. If that was what you meant?

I know they didn't use sundials so variations in times given are going to only be wrong in terms of the odd minute forward or backward surely? We would hope that all public service officials such as paramedics and police officers in any city know the importance of ensuring your watch keeps good time...

Lee,

I was meaning by what standard the watch was set. This was a time when atomic clocks and such were still in their development. It was not as simple as turning on your cell phone to get an accurate satellite time etc.

Even by todays standards I bet you would find a majority of watches that are not accurate.

[William Kelly]

Why would that be poor Lee? If in fact we are using the watch as a time stamp to verify important events, should we not consider the accuracy that represents?

Of course we should.

It's just something we'll never know Mike. We can never, ever, know if all of the watches and clocks used to time stamp information were fast, slow or accurate. I just didn't get your comment about 1963. It read like watches and clocks were less reliable in 1963. If that was what you meant?

I know they didn't use sundials so variations in times given are going to only be wrong in terms of the odd minute forward or backward surely? We would hope that all public service officials such as paramedics and police officers in any city know the importance of ensuring your watch keeps good time...

Lee,

I was meaning by what standard the watch was set. This was a time when atomic clocks and such were still in their development. It was not as simple as turning on your cell phone to get an accurate satellite time etc.

Even by todays standards I bet you would find a majority of watches that are not accurate.

Mike,

I have my Grandfather's wrist watch that I believe he purchased in Hong Kong in 1952. It ain't that expensive. It works fine and dandy. I also have a mantle-piece mechanical clock that was my Great-Grandmothers. It loses about a minute a week.

http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/accuracy.shtml

I understand what you mean about standards but I'm sure even in the 1960's they managed to set their watches to something. The news. Clock towers. Other clocks in the home. Last time I checked, the Greenwich Mean Time clock has kept the right time since 1880.

How about the clock on top of the TSBD?

BK

[David Josephs]

The clip was still in the rifle.

Mike... so it does not fall out when the last round was either chambered or ejected?

Not a single person mentions it, photographs it, marks it, carries it... and it was loaded with only 4 bullets that Oswald never purchased

in a clip that was never purchased.

and later, after the rifle has disappeared for most the Day (pun intended) it just appears.

I'm going to need a bit more than just your word for it. What leads you to believe it was still in the rifle or EVER on the 6th floor of the TSBD??

thanks

DJ