the attempted planting of the weapon on oswald

[Michael Hogan]

Question for Greg or Duke, or anyone else who may know the answer,

Did the Abundant Life Temple have a fire escape at the rear in 1963?

You might check with Lee Forman. He took these photos. The one of the rear alley does not show a fire escape.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15176

Sadly, the church was demolished just last week. The article mentions: "The building at 300 E. 10th St. was completed in 1916,

expanded in the mid-1920s and sold in 1962 after the congregation moved to 1222 W. Kiest Blvd." It would be interesting to see

who bought it. I'm sure some researcher knows.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/100610dnmetchurchdemolish.2516f72.html

There had been attempts to save it.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2010/04/12/story7.html

And now for the bombshell. The Dallas Business Journal reported:

But the conservation league began efforts to save the building as soon as it learned that the district had purchased the property

and planned to demolish it, says Mike Amonett, president of the conservation league.

“Any successful world-class city has and needs a historic area that gives visitors and residents a window in the city’s roots,” Amonett says.

He added that the church has national significance — it’s the place where Lee Harvey Oswald left his jacket after assassinating President

John F. Kennedy, and then killing a police officer nearby in 1963.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/slideshow/3170411.html?page=3

Edited October 11, 2010 by Michael Hogan

[Greg Parker]

Question for Greg or Duke, or anyone else who may know the answer,

Did the Abundant Life Temple have a fire escape at the rear in 1963?

Lee

Lee, Hill asked the dispatcher to send someone around to the fire escape.

[Greg Parker]

Question for Greg or Duke, or anyone else who may know the answer,

Did the Abundant Life Temple have a fire escape at the rear in 1963?

Lee

Lee, Hill asked the dispatcher to send someone around to the fire escape.

That's what my next question was going to be, Greg.

Did he?

I've been going over these dispatch transcripts all weekend and something is bothering me about that dispatch and something is telling me that perhaps he didn't.

Lee, I though you might be heading somewhere in that direction.

The timing of the call seems odd, certainly.

[Greg Parker]

Police Dispatches:

1:40PM 550/2 Gerald Hill - A witness reports that he last was seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down

1:44PM 550/2 Gerald Hill - Advise someone to get in the alley and behind that building at the fire escape

1:45PM Dispatcher - We have information that the suspect just went into the Texas Theater on West Jefferson

Why wasn't the call from Gerald Hill for "someone in the alley at the fire escape" responded to? And why did Hill radio this through when in actual fact, the Abundant Life Temple more than likely didn't have a fire escape?

We know what definitely did have a fire escape. The Texas Theater had one. And we have photos of cops standing on it.

At 1:46, approximately 2 minutes after Hill has asked for people at the non-existent fire escape of the Abundant Life Temple, the dispatcher calls "Have someone cover off the rear of the Theater at the fire escape." Was "that building" that Hill referred to the Texas Theater, and not the Abundant Life Temple? And if so, what are the implications?

I threw this strange dispatch out there for the opinion of Herbert Blenner on another forum and he is as frustrated as the rest of us trying to make sense of the written transcripts of the dispatches. Herbert states:

"The dispatchers and perhaps some patrol units received or sent information by telephone. Naturally, broadcasts based upon this unrecorded information seem disjointed and out of place.

Further Hill operated on both channels. Since the time annotations on each channel had an uncertainty of one minute, I would allow at least two minutes for asynchroneity of the channels.

Proceeding from audio records of both channels bypasses the incompleteness and inaccuracies of the transcripts but does reveal the telephonic sides of the conversations."

The reason I find this call from Hill quite odd is the fact that Nick McDonald was at the Abundant Life Temple at 1:33PM asking for a squad at Tenth and Crawford to "check out this church basement." We know that the library call came in from Officer Walker a minute later, at 1:34PM and all squads disappeared from the last place the suspect was seen and the place where they felt they had him "holed up, in this building over here at the corner."

Are we to believe that at 1:34PM the call came in from Walker that the suspect was at the library at Jefferson and within 60 seconds they then knew they it was "…the wrong man" as per Calvin Owens dispatch at 1:34PM? This 60 second time frame really doesn't fit with the story that Adrian Hamby told.

Hamby said that he pulled into the car park on the west side of the library after noticing police cars with flashing lights at the intersection of Marsalis and Jefferson. When he got out of his car he was accosted by two men in dark suits who, after identifying themselves as law enforcement officers, asked him what he was doing there. Hamby told them he worked at the library as a page. They told him to go inside and tell the head librarian to lock the doors and stay inside because a police officer had been shot.

According to William Weston (Fourth Decade Volume 7 Issue 3) Hamby then leaves the "unidentified officials" and runs toward the front doors of the library. This is 1:34PM because this is the point when Officer Walker sees Hamby running toward the library and, thinking he is the suspect, calls through his dispatch (with squealing tires) "…he is in the library at Jefferson – east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson."

We now have 60 seconds for the following to occur, if we are to believe "Bud" Owens call at 1:34PM that "It was the wrong man." Hamby has to enter the library. He goes up to Bessie Munday. He tells her what the "officers" had said. Munday is quite surprised because she, and the others at the library had heard what was going on outside. She gives Hamby the keys and he goes and locks the front doors. Munday goes to the children's department and locks the west side door. The patrons are all informed they have to remain inside until the police give the "all clear." Hamby and a few other people go down the children's area to listen to the radio and talk about what is going on. A frightened woman interrupts them and tells them the police have the library completely surrounded outside. Hamby then goes to the west side door, opens it and pops his head out. He sees swarms of armed police officers and closes the door quickly. There is "uproar" outside and over a megaphone he hears orders for everyone inside to come outside, and if they refused the police would "start shooting." The patrons and Hamby exit the library. The police hone in on Hamby, peppering him with questions, he is crying over and over that he "works there." Eventually, one of the plainclothes officers who spoke to him earlier tells the rest of the officers to let him go, because he is "the wrong man."

Can all of the above take place in less than a minute? Walker calls through the first call at 1:34PM claiming the suspect is at the library, and at 1:34PM Owens calls through that they have the "wrong man." This is not humanly possible. Surely?

Meanwhile, Gerald Hill is still at the Abundant Life Temple. McDonald was there at 1:33PM asking for a "squad" to search the basement. While everyone else runs off to the library at 1:34PM it would appear that Hill stayed on at and around Tenth and Crawford. At 1:40PM he calls through "A witness reports that he was last seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down." What transpires is this:

Channel II – 1:40PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) A witness reports that he was last seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down

Channel II – 1:40PM (Dispatcher) Is that the one that was involved in the shooting of the officer?

Channel II – 1:40PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) Yes

Channel II – 1:40PM (Dispatcher) They already have him

Strangely, there is now a break of 4 minutes

Channel II – 1:44PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) No, that wasn't the right one

When Patrolman R.C. Nelson asks at 1:44PM on Channel I "What was the last location anybody had on that suspect here in Oak Cliff" he is told by the dispatcher that the suspect was last seen running "North on Patton." This is patently untrue.

The last we hear of Hill is when (at 1:44PM) he states on Channel II "Advise someone to get in the alley and behind that building at the fire escape." Conveniently this dispatch coincides with the "end of record #3" on the dictabelt. A similar coincidence to the way in which "belt six" ends at 1:11PM, just as the citizens are desperately trying to call through the Tippit shooting.

The reason I believe there is something strange about Hill's call regarding the "fire escape" is that I don't believe that the Abundant Life Temple ever had a fire escape. Hill would have been at the ALT for about 11 minutes at this point. The dispatcher does nothing to fulfil Hill's request. At 1:46PM the dispatcher on Channel I radios "en route to the Texas Theater. Have someone cover off the rear of the theater at the fire escape." Nothing exists on the dispatches in reference to a "fire escape" other than Hill's call where we are led to believe he means the ALT fire escape.

We know the Texas Theater had a fire escape, we know that recent photographs of the ALT show no fire escape or architecture that would lend itself to a fire escape. As stated above, we have photographs of police officers standing on the fire escape at the TT, and testimony detailing it. I fully understand the incompleteness of the transcripts of the dispatches and that you are on dodgy ground when using them on their own when trying to make sense of things. My question is this. Is it possible that Gerald Hill was at the Texas Theater earlier than is claimed? Was his dispatch at 1:44PM in relation to covering off the "fire escape" actually in reference to the Texas Theater?

Could it be that Postal and Brewer were recruited to the "team" to give a reason for the police being at the TT when in actual fact the police were already there and then the dispatches were cooked to try and hide this because they had no reason to be there? Hill is told by the dispatcher at 1:46PM that the suspect is at the Texas Theater. Hill claims while at the ALT the call came through that the suspect was in the TT. He testified to the WC that he then left the ALT with Bob Apple in Apple's car. Apple, unfortunately, was assigned a three-wheeler that day, so God knows where Apple's "car" was conjured from.

When Hill arrives at the Theater it is already "completely covered off." He actually ends up on the "fire escape" when he enters the Theater.

Something, IMO, is not only terribly wrong with everyone's timings, but more importantly there is something terribly wrong with the dispatches.

I'm just throwing this out there for some discussion regarding this issue because it's wrecking my head thinking about it.

I hate this Goddamn case sometimes…!

Nice work, Lee. I think you may have something here... apart from the headache!

Anything that explains the roles of Brewer and Postal without stooping to bending the vidence out of shape, or just plain making it up, is a major breakthrough.

Now I'm off to bed, and hopefully this won't keep me awake. At least not all night....

[Michael Hogan]

Police Dispatches:

1:40PM 550/2 Gerald Hill - A witness reports that he last was seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down

1:44PM 550/2 Gerald Hill - Advise someone to get in the alley and behind that building at the fire escape

1:45PM Dispatcher - We have information that the suspect just went into the Texas Theater on West Jefferson

Why wasn't the call from Gerald Hill for “someone in the alley at the fire escape” responded to? And why did Hill radio this through when in actual fact, the Abundant Life Temple more than likely didn't have a fire escape?

We know what definitely did have a fire escape. The Texas Theater had one. And we have photos of cops standing on it.

At 1:46, approximately 2 minutes after Hill has asked for people at the non-existent fire escape of the Abundant Life Temple, the dispatcher calls "Have someone cover off the rear of the Theater at the fire escape." Was "that building" that Hill referred to the Texas Theater, and not the Abundant Life Temple? And if so, what are the implications?

I threw this strange dispatch out there for the opinion of Herbert Blenner on another forum and he is as frustrated as the rest of us trying to make sense of the written transcripts of the dispatches. Herbert states:

”The dispatchers and perhaps some patrol units received or sent information by telephone. Naturally, broadcasts based upon this unrecorded information seem disjointed and out of place.

Further Hill operated on both channels. Since the time annotations on each channel had an uncertainty of one minute, I would allow at least two minutes for asynchroneity of the channels.

Proceeding from audio records of both channels bypasses the incompleteness and inaccuracies of the transcripts but does reveal the telephonic sides of the conversations.”

The reason I find this call from Hill quite odd is the fact that Nick McDonald was at the Abundant Life Temple at 1:33PM asking for a squad at Tenth and Crawford to “check out this church basement.” We know that the library call came in from Officer Walker a minute later, at 1:34PM and all squads disappeared from the last place the suspect was seen and the place where they felt they had him “holed up, in this building over here at the corner.”

Are we to believe that at 1:34PM the call came in from Walker that the suspect was at the library at Jefferson and within 60 seconds they then knew they it was “…the wrong man” as per Calvin Owens dispatch at 1:34PM? This 60 second time frame really doesn’t fit with the story that Adrian Hamby told.

Hamby said that he pulled into the car park on the west side of the library after noticing police cars with flashing lights at the intersection of Marsalis and Jefferson. When he got out of his car he was accosted by two men in dark suits who, after identifying themselves as law enforcement officers, asked him what he was doing there. Hamby told them he worked at the library as a page. They told him to go inside and tell the head librarian to lock the doors and stay inside because a police officer had been shot.

According to William Weston (Fourth Decade Volume 7 Issue 3) Hamby then leaves the “unidentified officials” and runs toward the front doors of the library. This is 1:34PM because this is the point when Officer Walker sees Hamby running toward the library and, thinking he is the suspect, calls through his dispatch (with squealing tires) “…he is in the library at Jefferson – east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson.”

We now have 60 seconds for the following to occur, if we are to believe “Bud” Owens call at 1:34PM that “It was the wrong man.” Hamby has to enter the library. He goes up to Bessie Munday. He tells her what the “officers” had said. Munday is quite surprised because she, and the others at the library had heard what was going on outside. She gives Hamby the keys and he goes and locks the front doors. Munday goes to the children’s department and locks the west side door. The patrons are all informed they have to remain inside until the police give the “all clear.” Hamby and a few other people go down the children’s area to listen to the radio and talk about what is going on. A frightened woman interrupts them and tells them the police have the library completely surrounded outside. Hamby then goes to the west side door, opens it and pops his head out. He sees swarms of armed police officers and closes the door quickly. There is “uproar” outside and over a megaphone he hears orders for everyone inside to come outside, and if they refused the police would “start shooting.” The patrons and Hamby exit the library. The police hone in on Hamby, peppering him with questions, he is crying over and over that he “works there.” Eventually, one of the plainclothes officers who spoke to him earlier tells the rest of the officers to let him go, because he is “the wrong man.”

Can all of the above take place in less than a minute? Walker calls through the first call at 1:34PM claiming the suspect is at the library, and at 1:34PM Owens calls through that they have the “wrong man.” This is not humanly possible. Surely?

Meanwhile, Gerald Hill is still at the Abundant Life Temple. McDonald was there at 1:33PM asking for a “squad” to search the basement. While everyone else runs off to the library at 1:34PM it would appear that Hill stayed on at and around Tenth and Crawford. At 1:40PM he calls through “A witness reports that he was last seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down.” What transpires is this:

Channel II – 1:40PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) A witness reports that he was last seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down

Channel II – 1:40PM (Dispatcher) Is that the one that was involved in the shooting of the officer?

Channel II – 1:40PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) Yes

Channel II – 1:40PM (Dispatcher) They already have him

Strangely, there is now a break of 4 minutes

Channel II – 1:44PM (550/2 Sergeant Gerald Hill) No, that wasn’t the right one

When Patrolman R.C. Nelson asks at 1:44PM on Channel I “What was the last location anybody had on that suspect here in Oak Cliff” he is told by the dispatcher that the suspect was last seen running “North on Patton.” This is patently untrue.

The last we hear of Hill is when (at 1:44PM) he states on Channel II “Advise someone to get in the alley and behind that building at the fire escape.” Conveniently this dispatch coincides with the “end of record #3” on the dictabelt. A similar coincidence to the way in which “belt six” ends at 1:11PM, just as the citizens are desperately trying to call through the Tippit shooting.

The reason I believe there is something strange about Hill’s call regarding the “fire escape” is that I don’t believe that the Abundant Life Temple ever had a fire escape. Hill would have been at the ALT for about 11 minutes at this point. The dispatcher does nothing to fulfil Hill’s request. At 1:46PM the dispatcher on Channel I radios “en route to the Texas Theater. Have someone cover off the rear of the theater at the fire escape.” Nothing exists on the dispatches in reference to a “fire escape” other than Hill’s call where we are led to believe he means the ALT fire escape.

We know the Texas Theater had a fire escape, we know that recent photographs of the ALT show no fire escape or architecture that would lend itself to a fire escape. As stated above, we have photographs of police officers standing on the fire escape at the TT, and testimony detailing it. I fully understand the incompleteness of the transcripts of the dispatches and that you are on dodgy ground when using them on their own when trying to make sense of things. My question is this. Is it possible that Gerald Hill was at the Texas Theater earlier than is claimed? Was his dispatch at 1:44PM in relation to covering off the “fire escape” actually in reference to the Texas Theater?

Could it be that Postal and Brewer were recruited to the “team” to give a reason for the police being at the TT when in actual fact the police were already there and then the dispatches were cooked to try and hide this because they had no reason to be there? Hill is told by the dispatcher at 1:46PM that the suspect is at the Texas Theater. Hill claims while at the ALT the call came through that the suspect was in the TT. He testified to the WC that he then left the ALT with Bob Apple in Apple’s car. Apple, unfortunately, was assigned a three-wheeler that day, so God knows where Apple’s “car” was conjured from.

When Hill arrives at the Theater it is already “completely covered off.” He actually ends up on the “fire escape” when he enters the Theater.

Something, IMO, is not only terribly wrong with everyone’s timings, but more importantly there is something terribly wrong with the dispatches.

I'm just throwing this out there for some discussion regarding this issue because it's wrecking my head thinking about it.

I hate this Goddamn case sometimes…!

Nice work, Lee. As you know, Hill said he walked from the Tippit scene to the church; about half a block. He told Belin:

The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to a church. That would have been on the northeast corner

of 10th Street in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go in when there were two women who came out and

said they were employees inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen anybody enter the church, because we were

still looking for possible places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, nobody entered the church, but they invited

us to check the rest of the doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to. An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location

at that time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Bob Apple should have been called as a witness by the WC, but wasn't.

Hill also told Belin:

All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot.

That would be Dudley Hughes' parking lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--

and taken off his jacket

.

It would be nice to know who this witness was. Poe doesn't mention it in his WC testimony.

[Ray Mitcham]

Lee, an interesting snippet from the National Guardian later in the pages mentioned above.(Page 31)

Comment by Milton Klein, whose company allegedly supplied the offending rifle.

"I don't think that rifle killed Kennedy. Not because it's too slow or too fast. Right after the murder, the Dallas Police discovered a Fort Worth armorer who said he was the man who put the telescope on Oswald's gun. He said he drilled the holes in the gun for the screws of the telescope and that he mounted it. He showed the Police the invoice for the telescope and the work, and he recognized the rifle.

"What is strange about this is that the gun was shipped from here with the telescope already mounted and the holes for the screws already drilled. Therefore, either the Dallas weapon is not the one I sold and Oswald ordered, or the Dallas Police persuaded the Fort Worth Armorer to issue a false statement. And if that's the case, why?"

http://contentdm.baylor.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/15poage-arm&CISOPTR=46973&REC=3

Anybody know any more about the Fort Worth Armorer?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Ray Mitcham

[Gil Jesus]

i notice that fritz states he did not have a recording device, in his office at the end of said article, also he was interrupted many times by officers keeping in mind roger craig......I found a map of the 3rd dpd office building, on tomlin's site, somewhere http://whokilledjfk.net/

thanks, will try to find his link, one room clearly states recording room....

The recording room was right across the hall from the homicide office.

[David Josephs]

Hopefully this is not repeated info - Applin's testimony is very interesting, and while some of his quotes are used in the thread I think there were two that stand out

1) which fist Oswald used when McDonald touched his waist... and 2) what the arm with the pistol looked like...

Applin was right there watching the entire thing and cannot say definitively that Oswald pulled the pistol.....

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD - After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect.

And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."

As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose.

If Applin is right and Oswald swings his RIGHT HAND at McDonald while McD is reaching with is LEFT, there is no way he also grabs the gun with his right hand...

Mr. BALL - Did he cock his fist?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir; knocking my cap off.

Mr. BALL - Which fist did he hit you with?

Mr. McDONALD - His left fist.

Mr. BALL - What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD - Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction was for me to go at him with this hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on his hand over the pistol.

Mr. BALL - Did you feel the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD - His right hand was on the pistol.

Mr. APPLIN - Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. BALL - Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - With his left or right?

Mr. APPLIN - Right fist.

Mr. BALL - Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; along about

Mr. BALL - Where?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL - Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN - He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN - The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL - Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL - How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. BALL - You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir.

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

uh, oops... don't cops also wear short sleeves? or are we going to say he had on two jackets like Whaley... or no jacket like Roberts, or a brown jacket like the Tippit witnesses

Oswald was in a long sleeve brown short... the person with the pistol had short sleeves...

[Greg Parker]

David,

yeah, I've pointed to the same things - including that cops sometimes where short-sleeved shirts. But really, it's hard to say who is right about which hand O used because witnesses are pretty much split down the middle (one cop even said O hit Mc with a left - right combination!). Can we identify ANYONE at all with short-sleeved shirt involved in the arrest?

greg

Hopefully this is not repeated info - Applin's testimony is very interesting, and while some of his quotes are used in the thread I think there were two that stand out

1) which fist Oswald used when McDonald touched his waist... and 2) what the arm with the pistol looked like...

Applin was right there watching the entire thing and cannot say definitively that Oswald pulled the pistol.....

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD - After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect.

And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."

As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose.

If Applin is right and Oswald swings his RIGHT HAND at McDonald while McD is reaching with is LEFT, there is no way he also grabs the gun with his right hand...

Mr. BALL - Did he cock his fist?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir; knocking my cap off.

Mr. BALL - Which fist did he hit you with?

Mr. McDONALD - His left fist.

Mr. BALL - What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD - Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction was for me to go at him with this hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on his hand over the pistol.

Mr. BALL - Did you feel the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD - His right hand was on the pistol.

Mr. APPLIN - Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. BALL - Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - With his left or right?

Mr. APPLIN - Right fist.

Mr. BALL - Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; along about

Mr. BALL - Where?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL - Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN - He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN - The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL - Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL - How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. BALL - You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir.

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

uh, oops... don't cops also wear short sleeves? or are we going to say he had on two jackets like Whaley... or no jacket like Roberts, or a brown jacket like the Tippit witnesses

Oswald was in a long sleeve brown short... the person with the pistol had short sleeves...

[David Josephs]

thanks Greg... I figured as much...

Can't hardly WAIT to get to the underlying real story about Tippit's murder...

I do believe they are related only in that Tippit needed removal and Oswald needed to be branded a cop killer...

and there needed to be a "trail" leading to the Texas Theater...

the calm and cool Oswald - when Baker sticks a gun at him a minute after supposedly killy JFK -

turns to a quivering mass of nerves in front of Brewer's store? and then sneaks into a movie?

this after dropping the hulls linking his gun to the murder at the scene...

Geez... why not just wear a "I am Lee Oswald and I just killed JFK and Tippit" T-shirt

would have saved everyone a lot of running around...