Chemtrails are back!

[Jack White]

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[Matthew Lewis]

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(For those who can't see the picture because you are not a member or in a few weeks after Jack has removed it, it shows multiple overlapping contrails amongst cirrus clouds.)

To Jack:

Do you have a point or is this just pretty picture post time? Most people actually discuss things on a discussion forum. I see some textbook examples of persistent contrails as well as some regular cirrus clouds with the trails again showing that the conditions were right for contrail formation. Thanks again for illustrating my point!

[Jack White]

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[Matthew Lewis]

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(For those who can't see the picture because you are not a member or in a few weeks after Jack has removed it, it shows two contrails, one thick and one thin, with arrows identifying the thin short one as a contrail and the thicker one as a "chemtrail". There is again cirrus clouds visible in the image)

To Jack:

Both look like contrails. Both are easily explained through the 70+ year old science behind contrail formation. The planes that left the contrails were very likely at different altitudes accounting for the difference in persistence. (for the newcomers, Jack believes in the lie that contrails can not persist even though they have been observed to do so since planes could fly high enough and plenty of proof has been posted in this very thread) Of course we see again some cirrus clouds with the trails again showing that the conditions were right for contrail formation. Thanks again for illustrating my point!

When are you going to post something that doesn't look like a contrail?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Len Colby]

There doesn't seem to be much doubt about who killed Jose Enrique Trias and his wife, Julie Gilbert.

Man Is Sentenced To Die For Killing, Robbing Couple

March 14, 1995

A man drew two death sentences plus 114 years in prison Monday for murdering two Washington lawyers in their bed during a robbery at their weekend home. ''I find this the most vicious crime that could ever be committed,'' Judge Eugene Lerner told 31-year-old Scotland Williams. A jury convicted Williams on Thursday of murdering Jose Trias and his wife, Julie Gilbert, in May. They were shot in the back of the head as they lay in bed. Williams, who was also convicted of armed robbery, was arrested after being identified from videotape of him using the couple's bank cards at cash machines.

Atm Photo Guides Police To Dual Murder Suspect

May 21, 1994

A picture taken by a bank cash machine security camera led police to a man they say killed two prominent attorneys at their weekend home. Scotland Williams, 31, was charged Thursday night with murder in the deaths of Jose Enrique Trias and his wife, Julie Gilbert, who were found Monday, each shot in the head. Williams was arrested after an automatic teller machine photo of a man using a victim's credit card was circulated among police officers. He was wearing Gilbert's watch when he was arrested, a police spokesman said.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/keyword/julie-gilbert

Witnesses testify they saw double-slaying defendant at ATMs

By Dennis O'Brien | Dennis O'Brien,Sun Staff Writer | March 2, 1995

A Pasadena man and a Glen Burnie woman testified yesterday that they saw Scotland E. Williams withdraw money from automated teller machines in May, apparently using bank cards stolen from two lawyers killed a day or two earlier in their weekend home near Annapolis.In addition, an FBI witness said computer-enhanced photographs of bank videotapes show a man using the machines wearing a blue bandanna, eyeglasses and gray vinyl jacket that match those taken from Mr. Williams' house in the 800 block of Bradford Ave. in Arnold after he was arrested.

NEWS

Inmate testifies Williams killed 2 lawyers for car

By Dennis O'Brien | Dennis O'Brien,Sun Staff Writer | March 4, 1995

Scotland E. Williams told a fellow inmate at the Anne Arundel County jail that he fatally shot two lawyers in their weekend home near Annapolis last May to get his hands on the Acura Legend owned by one of the victims, the inmate said.Carl Spoon testified in Anne Arundel Circuit Court yesterday that Mr. Williams told him "the only thing he had done it for was the red Acura Legend" during a conversation one morning last June at the jail, where they were both awaiting trial.Mr. Williams, 31, of Arnold is charged with first-degree murder in the shooting deaths of Julie Noel Gilbert, 48, and her husband, Jose E. Trias, 49, who were found slain in their home in Winchester on the Severn on May 16.Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty in the case, which is being heard by Judge Eugene M. Lerner.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/keyword/williams-lawyer

Williams' mother says he told her he didn't kill lawyers last May

March 07, 1995|By Dennis O'Brien,Sun Staff Writer

Scotland E. Williams admitted to his mother after he was arrested in the shooting deaths of two lawyers last May that he had taken one victim's car and both victims' automated bank cards, according to her testimony yesterday.

But Rosezelma Williams also told an Anne Arundel Circuit Court jury that her son denied killing Julie Noel Gilbert, 48, and Jose E. Trias, 49.

Mr. Williams, 31, of Arnold, is being tried before Judge Eugene M. Lerner for first-degree murder in the deaths of the two Washington lawyers, who were shot to death in their weekend home in Winchester on the Severn on May 16.

Mrs. Williams, who shared her home in the 800 block of Bradford Ave. with the defendant, glanced just a few times at her son during the 20 minutes she was on the witness stand.

She testified that her son told her in a telephone conversation from the county jail after his May 19 arrest that he had stolen Ms. Gilbert's 1992 red Acura Legend from the parking lot of Damon's, a restaurant on Ritchie Highway in Arnold.

She said he also told her he abandoned the car in a Baltimore neighborhood after learning it was missing from a murder scene.

He also admitted to having the victims' bank cards, which were used to withdraw $3,000 from two Glen Burnie teller machines shortly after the killings, she testified.

She said her son offered no explanation for how he obtained the bank cards, but denied committing the murders.

"He said he didn't do it," she told jurors.

She testified that he said the victims had written their names and personal identification numbers on the cards.

In his opening statement last week, Craig Gendler, Mr. Williams' attorney, told the jury that it might decide that his client is a thief, but that his possession of the stolen goods did not prove that he is a murderer.

In other testimony yesterday, a DNA expert testified that DNA matching Mr. Williams' was scraped from a drinking glass in the victims' kitchen, and an FBI hair and fiber expert told jurors the defendant's hair was found in their bedroom and bathroom.

Charlotte Word, a scientist with Cellmark Diagnostics, the Germantown laboratory that tested the glass, said the DNA found on a drinking glass in the victims' kitchen matched the DNA found in Mr. Williams' blood.

David Wilson, the FBI expert, also told jurors that vacuum sweepings from a white bathroom rug and from around the bed, where the victims were shot, turned up five hairs belonging to Mr. Williams.

Tiny fibers left on the adhesive tape used to attach a note posted on the victim's back door, which read, "On Vacation Be Back 20 May" also matched the brown cotton gloves police confiscated from Mr. Williams' house after his arrest, Mr. Wilson said.

Under cross-examination by Linda Ostovitz, one of Mr. Williams' attorneys, Mr. Wilson acknowledged that hair and fibers analysis could not provide a scientific match, like a fingerprint.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-03-07/news/1995066121_1_dna-williams-house-williams-blood

Anytime Duanne comes up with evidence they spoke to a reporter he can post it here. His research is so superficial he got Trias' professor wrong he was a lawyer not a scientist

[Duane Daman]

What I think doesnt matter.

I couldn't agree more.

I already said it was suspicious. Can it be proven? Would a court of law say yep, that was definitely the reason they were murdered?

When people are brutally murdered, it's more than just suspicious.. Even though it can't be proven in a court of law that the conversation took place, I don't see why the person involved would risk his own life by claiming it did, if it didn't.. Just the fact that Trias and his wife were murdered is enough proof that they were involved in something that certain parties decided needed to remain a secret.

From what I've seen his "research" is filled with ignorance, and a misunderstanding of perspective. Even though the vast majority of it has been explained or debunked he ignores all criticisms in the hopes that they'll just go away. Then he'll repost them later as if nothing ever happened. The above is just one example. It is also the last I'll say in this thread as it is off topic. It doesn't change my original point though that I don't believe exactly what the government said. Mostly though I don't care.

You're entitled to your closed mnded opinion about Jack's work, but I haven't seen anything in his research that deserves the type of character assassinations that you and your pals dish out.. Everyone makes mistakes, but it looks like the fact that building 6 burned before the tower came down, is not one of them.

How is that an insult? It is a valid question.

Asking someone you're debating .. "is there a conspiracy you don't believe in?".. is equivalent to calling them a "hoaxhead", or "a wild eyed conspiracy theorist", or "a tin foil hat wearer" .. It's just another form of ridicule that's always used by people with your particular mind set, or world view.

How about what Ive already mentioned multiple times. How many microbiologist, virologists, etc. are there in the world? What is the normal death rate of these people? Is the amount dead greater or lower than normal? If somebody says that x number of people in a particular field were killed, but neglects to mention that the time period in question covered 20 years and because of that the overall rate is lower than normal, that is context that is needed to say if the deaths are significant or not.

It doesn't matter how many micro biologists there are in the world .. What matters is that many of these scientists didn't die from old age or natural causes .. They were BRUTALLY MURDERED and it's a fact that people are usually BRUTALLY MURDERED for a reason.

You had a problem posting on this forum and when the broken links were mentioned you said it only proves how hard some people are working to suppress the truth of chemtrails. How should one assume you weren't implying it happened on this forum caused by forum members here? It is a logical assumption based on what you posted. How is that an insult?

Sorry, but that is not a logical assumption to make .. Yes, certain people are working very hard to suppress the truth abut chemtrails, but I never accused anyone on this forum of corrupting those links .. It obviously happened before I posted them here .. Now please stop wasting my time by making false accusations against me..Talk about beating a dead horse!

Everywhere? There are not contrails, persistent or not, nor chemtrails at any altitude in my location. Due to the multiple military airspaces around Panama City, most commercial traffic is routed around here. If there really was some program so spray everybody, why not here? Military traffic is allowed all the time (consists mostly of fighter traffic) but most often avoids contrail formation altitudes (they can be predicted) because a contrail of any length can be visually acquired at a much greater distance than the airplane itself. Commercial traffic is NOT prohibited, just usually routed around whether the airspaces are active or not as a matter of habit. Result: no contrails or chemtrails. Most days are clear.

Please post a video you say proves low altitude spraying. Again, EVERY one Ive seen they either have no way of judging altitude or are clearly higher than they say they are.

If there are never any chemtrails being sprayed at your location, then you're very lucky.. Since you live near military airspace, that might be the reason you don't see them... Maybe the Air Force doesn't spray their own with chemical toxins.

Here's a video showing low altitude spraying at about 4,000 feet.

"Includes original footage now featured on "What In The World Are They Spraying". Chemtrails Are: Persistent lines of chemical-infused aerosol spray dispersals from typically unmarked planes which are now seen in the sky all over the world. Unlike normal jet contrails formed from water vapor, chemtrails spread to form a thick blanket of cloud cover, held together by polymer fibers until they reach the ground, contaminating crops, water supplies and humans with radioactive soft metals and dessicated red blood cells which contain active human pathogens.

Researchers discovered 6 different agendas or motives for these operations, some of which may overlap: environment or climate changes, biological, military purposes, electromagnetic, geophysical or global effects, and exotic propulsion systems. Analysis of material from chemtrails has revealed magnetic salts, including the toxic substance of barium. Fibers, submicron in size, have also been detected, and they bear a physical similarity to the filaments found in Morgellons Disease."

I never said they couldnt be but unless you collect from directly within a trail, a sample collected on the ground is not only possible to be contaminated by local sources but likely. There is never any control nor effort to rule out local contamination sources.

I'm not sure how you expect anyone to obtain a sample from a trail in the air, unless they follow one of the Air Force tanker jets and figure out how to collect some of the toxins while hanging out of their plane.. I've never heard of anything so ridiculous! .. But thanks for the laugh.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Duane Daman

[Duane Daman]

People may have become ill but they have not proven it is from “chemtrails” At best they have coincidence and confirmation bias. Everything videotaped looks just like contrails. All samples have been collected on the ground. There is no proof that they came from a trail in the sky.

The people who have become ill believe it was caused by chemtrails for the simple reason that chemtrails were seen criss crossing the sky above their homes, several days before they became ill .. In several cases, strange sticky stuff has fallen from the sky that resembles spider webs, but when touched, disolved into people's skin, creating sores.. Some of those people now have what is known as morgellons disease.

Here's a list of some of the other illness claimed to be caused by exposure to chemtrails.

Allergies, sore and blocked sinuses;

Dry, hacking, persistent cough;

Nosebleeds, blood in mucous;

Swollen, burning, teary eyes with mucous;

Flu-like, fever, sore throat;

Pneumonia, upper respiratory;

Mycoplasma infections;

Migraine or splitting headaches;

Pain in back of neck, particularly at the

top of the spine, extremely stiff neck;

Disorientation, foggy brain, sudden dizziness;

Extreme fatigue, lethargy, inability to concentrate;

Loud ringing in your ears;

Depression, anxiety attacks;

Gastrointestinal distress, bloating;

Diarrhoea, bloody stools; joint pain,

Aching joints and muscles;

Thirst (your pets, too) or loss of appetite;

Loss of bladder control, tics or spasms;

Recurring fungal infections;

Metallic, oily or corrosive smell and taste.

Everything video taped looks nothing like normal contrails, which form very thin lines that dissipate behind the aircraft .. Cemtrails are much wider in appearance and linger for many hours.

The chemtrail toxins have been recovered from the ground because there is no way to collect them from the air.

I have yet to see a video showing a plane turning around to “spray” the same area. I’ve seen people claim it but they never follow the plane for the whole time. They fail at proving it is the same plane. Do you have an adequate example?

The picture that Jack posted here shows the trails of planes that have turned around.

Still, loops or circles can be created by jets in a holding pattern or military planes (command and control or tankers) flying orbits for training. X’s, letter patterns, and grids can be explained by normal everyday traffic. Should flight paths never cross? How would people get anywhere if they didn’t?

True, but the eye witness haven't seen any planes in "holding patterns", nor have they witnessed any "normal traffic" .. They usually see and describe one or two planes that are deliberately turning around to criss cross the sky with wide, lingering CHEMTRAILS patterns.

Just because something was sprayed before doesn’t mean it happens now. You (or anybody really) has at some point in their life told a lie (likely many). Does that mean you always tell lies? Does that mean you are telling lies right now? Of course not.

Please post proof that US Air Force tankers are spraying anything. Especially as the majority of pics and videos show commercial aircraft, or types that the Air Force does not have. How do you propose that the Air Force with its limited and aging fleet of tankers does all this spraying? At any given time more than 1/3 of the tankers in the inventory are deployed delivering fuel in theater supporting the wars. Another 1/3 are down for maintenance. That leaves at most 1/3 (likely less) that still need to accomplish training in the states (unless you think the first time a pilot should do an aerial refuel is in a wartime situation).

Nice try again, but if the US military was guilty of this type of bio warfare testing and chemical spraying of unsuspecting populations in the past, then they are capable of doing the same thing now.

I've already posted the proof that the majority of the chemtrail spraying is being done by Air Force tankers .. People who can identify these types of jets, have done so, repeatedly.

Not what I said, don’t put words in my mouth.

This is what you said .. "The reason it "became widespread" is due to an increase in jet traffic, a redesign of jet engines to cut noise and save fuel, and higher jet traffic due to increased traffic and more efficient engines.

I replied .. "You think the way to "save fuel" is to CIRCLE BACK REPEATEDLY TO MAKE LOOPS, X'S, LETTERS, AND GRID PATTERNS OVER CERTAIN AREAS???" .. The words "save fuel" was one of your many excuses.. So I didn't put any words in your mouth.

They see something that looks exactly like a contrail and they find on the Internet that they should be afraid of it. I don’t doubt people are becoming ill but I have yet to see any definitive proof (something that would hold up in court, not something designed to sway the average Internet surfer) that it was caused by something sprayed in the sky.

Everything I’ve seen described as a “chemtrail” can be explained with the long known science of contrails. It has nothing to do with a world view.

Chemtrails look NOTHING like contrails, so why keep pretending they do? .. People who are ill aren't worrying about proving how they got sick in a court of law .. They just want the US military to admit to what they are spraying in the atmosphere that is making them so ill, and then STOP IT.

Everything you post has to do with your world view, whether you can admit it or not.

So deliberate fakes perpetrated by well known “chemtrail” proponents are disinformation? Even if you claim that somebody else did the fake and they just fell for it, why would they continue to push it after the fake was proven?

Some researchers may believe incorrect information at times, but they are NOT the ones who are spreading deliberate disinformation .. The people doing that are the ones trying to suppress the truth of chemtrails.

Look for a picture of a crop spraying aircraft. The spray comes out thick right by the nozzle and quickly spreads out and disappears. Contrails or "chemtrails" are the opposite. They often form many feet behind the nozzle and grow as they condense and pull moisture from the air. If “chemtrails” are a spray, how come they look different from every other sprayed chemical and exactly like contrails? If they look exactly like contrails, how is one supposed to identify them?

Again, as I’ve mentioned before and bolded within the quote above, The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Let me know if they ever get around to it.

Once again, chemtrails look nothing like contrails .. Just because the tanker jets don't spray chemtrails using the same method crop duster planes do, doesn't mean they aren't spraying anything, because they obviously are.

If you know of a way to retrieve a chemical sample from a trail in the air, then by all means let the people who are researching this crime know how to do that .. If you don't know how to do that, then the ground samples will have to do.

[Duane Daman]

Anytime Duanne comes up with evidence they spoke to a reporter he can post it here. His research is so superficial he got Trias' professor wrong he was a lawyer not a scientist

Friend or reporter? .. Or does it really matter, since he spilled some top secret info to somebody.

"1994, Jose Trias met with a friend in Houston, Texas and was planning to go public with his personal knowledge of HHMI "front door" grants being diverted to "back door" black ops bioresearch. The next day, Trias and his wife were found dead in their Chevy Chase, Md. home. Chevy Chase is where HHMI is headquartered. Police described the killings as a professional hit.

Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) funds a tremendous number of research programs at schools, hospitals and research facilities, and has long been alleged to be conducting "black ops" biomedical research for intelligence organizations, including the CIA."

http://www.heartson.com/Politics/anthrax_research_timeline.html

Lawyer or micro biologist?.. Murdered by a robber or by professional hit? .. I guess it just depends on which sources you choose to believe... Your source comes from the main stream media and we all know how "reliable" and "honest" they are.

[Duane Daman]

Anytime Colby comes up with "evidence" attempting to prove me wrong, it's best to do some checking to see if it's really true or not.

Jose Trias was on a list of murdered micro biologists .. It was never mentioned on that list that he was not a scientist, but rather a lawyer who obviously knew too much about top secret programs and allegeldy decided to share that information with a "friend" the day before he and his wife were brutally murdered.

Then Colby decided to make the Trias murders appear to be just a run of the mill armed robbery, with a suspect already proven guilty .. NOT TRUE, as proven by the information he decided not to post here.

Double-murder conviction of Arnold man is overturned New trial ordered in deaths of lawyers

July 31, 1996|By Scott Wilson | Scott Wilson,SUN STAFF

The Maryland Court of Appeals overturned yesterday the double-murder conviction of Scotland E. Williams, ordering a new trial for the condemned Arnold man in the May 1994 slayings of two prominent Washington lawyers.

The state's highest court ruled unanimously that Williams was unfairly convicted last year on charges that he murdered Jose Trias and his wife, Julie Gilbert. The two were found dead in their Annapolis weekend home, hand-cuffed and shot in the head.

"Mr. Williams is once again presumed to be innocent," said Michael Braudes, a public defender who argued the Williams case before the Court of Appeals.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-07-31/news/1996213008_1_williams-case-anne-arundel-court-of-appeals

"NEWS

Son said he had slaying victims' bank cards, mother testifies Williams being retried in 1994 double slaying

By Andrea F. Siegel | Andrea F. Siegel,SUN STAFF | May 14, 1998

Scotland E. Williams, accused in a double killing, told his mother he had bank cards belonging to the victims a day or so after their bodies were discovered, the woman testified yesterday. Rosezelma J. Williams told an Anne Arundel Circuit Court jury that her son, who was staying at her Arnold home, also said he had gotten a car from "a parking lot or something" and taken it to Baltimore.Prosecutors are trying to show that the automated teller machine cards belonged to Jose E. Trias, 49, and Julie Noel Gilbert, 48, lawyers who were found dead May 16, 1994, in their weekend home in Winchester on the Severn.

Much more here...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/keyword/trias/recent/3

[Matthew Lewis]

What I think doesnt matter.

I couldn't agree more.

Yet again you ignore context. Typical.

I already said it was suspicious. Can it be proven? Would a court of law say yep, that was definitely the reason they were murdered?

When people are brutally murdered, it's more than just suspicious.. Even though it can't be proven in a court of law that the conversation took place, I don't see why the person involved would risk his own life by claiming it did, if it didn't.. Just the fact that Trias and his wife were murdered is enough proof that they were involved in something that certain parties decided needed to remain a secret.

So just the fact that one couple is murdered is now proof? Now youre ignoring context in the extreme. It is really quite absurd.

From what I've seen his "research" is filled with ignorance, and a misunderstanding of perspective. Even though the vast majority of it has been explained or debunked he ignores all criticisms in the hopes that they'll just go away. Then he'll repost them later as if nothing ever happened. The above is just one example. It is also the last I'll say in this thread as it is off topic. It doesn't change my original point though that I don't believe exactly what the government said. Mostly though I don't care.

You're entitled to your closed mnded opinion about Jack's work, but I haven't seen anything in his research that deserves the type of character assassinations that you and your pals dish out.. Everyone makes mistakes, but it looks like the fact that building 6 burned before the tower came down, is not one of them.

I have delivered no character assassinations, unlike you or Jack. I have tried to only mention his work and not him. Whether building 6 burned or not was NOT the question. What was the question was whether his still frame captured an explosion. The video evidence which he has repeatedly ignored and which I linked to shows it did not. As for a fire, I dont know nor do I care. It appears Jack may be changing horses. If I had to comment, I would say at first glance it looks like a trick of lighting but Ill defer to other experts here. Again, it is off topic. If Jack or others want to discuss the photo, they can start another thread to do so.

How is that an insult? It is a valid question.

Asking someone you're debating .. "is there a conspiracy you don't believe in?".. is equivalent to calling them a "hoaxhead", or "a wild eyed conspiracy theorist", or "a tin foil hat wearer" .. It's just another form of ridicule that's always used by people with your particular mind set, or world view.

Not meant as ridicule at all. I'm sorry if you saw it that way. Just trying to understand where youre coming from. If I wanted to call you a "hoaxhead", or "a wild eyed conspiracy theorist", or "a tin foil hat wearer", I would have. I did not.

How about what Ive already mentioned multiple times. How many microbiologist, virologists, etc. are there in the world? What is the normal death rate of these people? Is the amount dead greater or lower than normal? If somebody says that x number of people in a particular field were killed, but neglects to mention that the time period in question covered 20 years and because of that the overall rate is lower than normal, that is context that is needed to say if the deaths are significant or not.

It doesn't matter how many micro biologists there are in the world .. What matters is that many of these scientists didn't die from old age or natural causes .. They were BRUTALLY MURDERED and it's a fact that people are usually BRUTALLY MURDERED for a reason.

So again, you are saying the context doesnt matter? Absurd.

You had a problem posting on this forum and when the broken links were mentioned you said it only proves how hard some people are working to suppress the truth of chemtrails. How should one assume you weren't implying it happened on this forum caused by forum members here? It is a logical assumption based on what you posted. How is that an insult?

Sorry, but that is not a logical assumption to make .. Yes, certain people are working very hard to suppress the truth abut chemtrails, but I never accused anyone on this forum of corrupting those links .. It obviously happened before I posted them here .. Now please stop wasting my time by making false accusations against me..Talk about beating a dead horse!

I made a logical assumption based on the available information. I doubt I was the only one. If you say you werent accusing anyone here, then fine, you werent. I withdraw any and all accusations and apologize. I do think it is hilarious that you cant just take responsibility for your own actions but I expected nothing less.

Everywhere? There are not contrails, persistent or not, nor chemtrails at any altitude in my location. Due to the multiple military airspaces around Panama City, most commercial traffic is routed around here. If there really was some program so spray everybody, why not here? Military traffic is allowed all the time (consists mostly of fighter traffic) but most often avoids contrail formation altitudes (they can be predicted) because a contrail of any length can be visually acquired at a much greater distance than the airplane itself. Commercial traffic is NOT prohibited, just usually routed around whether the airspaces are active or not as a matter of habit. Result: no contrails or chemtrails. Most days are clear.

If there are never any chemtrails being sprayed at your location, then you're very lucky.. Since you live near military airspace, that might be the reason you don't see them... Maybe the Air Force doesn't spray their own with chemical toxins.

Or maybe they are just normal contrails and the lack of them is explained by the lack of commercial traffic.

Please post a video you say proves low altitude spraying. Again, EVERY one Ive seen they either have no way of judging altitude or are clearly higher than they say they are.

Here's a video showing low altitude spraying at about 4,000 feet.

Where in the video does it prove the low altitude spraying? I see lots of contrails, most often with cirrus clouds showing they were both high altitude and that the conditions were right for contrail formation. 2:30 in and they show an airplane flying through nonuniform air of varying temperature and/or moisture content. Followed by more contrails and cirrus. Still nothing showing spraying at low altitude and certainly nothing that I saw at 4,000 feet.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Matthew Lewis]

I never said they couldn’t be but unless you collect from directly within a trail, a sample collected on the ground is not only possible to be contaminated by local sources but likely. There is never any control nor effort to rule out local contamination sources.

I'm not sure how you expect anyone to obtain a sample from a trail in the air, unless they follow one of the Air Force tanker jets and figure out how to collect some of the toxins while hanging out of their plane.. I've never heard of anything so ridiculous! .. But thanks for the laugh.

That’s EXACTLY what they should do! Charter a plane, preferably one set up to take air samples (there are plenty out there, at least one was claimed to be a sprayer by “chemtrailers” even though all of its equipment is clearly designed for COLLECTION) fly through a trail and collect samples! Then have the samples tested blindly at multiple labs. This is what they proposed while collecting money and then never delivering. You know, the FRAUD that you and others are perfectly OK with. Of course for some reason “chemtrail” proponents don’t want to get the best evidence they could possibly get.

People may have become ill but they have not proven it is from “chemtrails” At best they have coincidence and confirmation bias. Everything videotaped looks just like contrails. All samples have been collected on the ground. There is no proof that they came from a trail in the sky.

The people who have become ill believe it was caused by chemtrails for the simple reason that chemtrails were seen criss crossing the sky above their homes, several days before they became ill .. In several cases, strange sticky stuff has fallen from the sky that resembles spider webs, but when touched, disolved into people's skin, creating sores.. Some of those people now have what is known as morgellons disease.

Still doesn’t change the FACT that they have not proven their illnesses were caused by “chemtrails”. At best they have a correlation. Correlation does not prove causation.

Everything video taped looks nothing like normal contrails, which form very thin lines that dissipate behind the aircraft .. Cemtrails are much wider in appearance and linger for many hours.

Not according to the 70+ years of science behind contrails. You even admitted before that contrails could persist. Now you are saying they don’t. Which is it?

The chemtrail toxins have been recovered from the ground because there is no way to collect them from the air.

Wrong. They have been collected on the ground because those involved don’t want to bother getting actual evidence.

I have yet to see a video showing a plane turning around to “spray” the same area. I’ve seen people claim it but they never follow the plane for the whole time. They fail at proving it is the same plane. Do you have an adequate example?

The picture that Jack posted here shows the trails of planes that have turned around.

Did you miss where I said “video”? Plus I already explained the picture.

Still, loops or circles can be created by jets in a holding pattern or military planes (command and control or tankers) flying orbits for training. X’s, letter patterns, and grids can be explained by normal everyday traffic. Should flight paths never cross? How would people get anywhere if they didn’t?

True, but the eye witness haven't seen any planes in "holding patterns", nor have they witnessed any "normal traffic" .. They usually see and describe one or two planes that are deliberately turning around to criss cross the sky with wide, lingering CHEMTRAILS patterns.

Would these eyewitnesses actually recognize a holding pattern? How does that look different from any other plane turning in a circle?

[Matthew Lewis]

Just because something was sprayed before doesn’t mean it happens now. You (or anybody really) has at some point in their life told a lie (likely many). Does that mean you always tell lies? Does that mean you are telling lies right now? Of course not.

Nice try again, but if the US military was guilty of this type of bio warfare testing and chemical spraying of unsuspecting populations in the past, then they are capable of doing the same thing now.

OK, you were capable lying in the past, you are doing so now. Both conclusions are equally absurd.

Please post proof that US Air Force tankers are spraying anything. Especially as the majority of pics and videos show commercial aircraft, or types that the Air Force does not have. How do you propose that the Air Force with its limited and aging fleet of tankers does all this spraying? At any given time more than 1/3 of the tankers in the inventory are deployed delivering fuel in theater supporting the wars. Another 1/3 are down for maintenance. That leaves at most 1/3 (likely less) that still need to accomplish training in the states (unless you think the first time a pilot should do an aerial refuel is in a wartime situation).

I've already posted the proof that the majority of the chemtrail spraying is being done by Air Force tankers .. People who can identify these types of jets, have done so, repeatedly.

The majority of planes photographed and videotaped are of types the Air Force doesn’t even have. How does that prove the majority is being done by Air Force tankers? You haven’t explained either how they would have enough aircraft to do what you propose anyway.

Not what I said, don’t put words in my mouth.

This is what you said .. "The reason it "became widespread" is due to an increase in jet traffic, a redesign of jet engines to cut noise and save fuel, and higher jet traffic due to increased traffic and more efficient engines.

I replied .. "You think the way to "save fuel" is to CIRCLE BACK REPEATEDLY TO MAKE LOOPS, X'S, LETTERS, AND GRID PATTERNS OVER CERTAIN AREAS???" .. The words "save fuel" was one of your many excuses.. So I didn't put any words in your mouth.

The redesign of jet engines was BOTH to cut noise and save fuel. It has nothing to do with flight paths they may later take or that may be imposed on them by ATC.

They see something that looks exactly like a contrail and they find on the Internet that they should be afraid of it. I don’t doubt people are becoming ill but I have yet to see any definitive proof (something that would hold up in court, not something designed to sway the average Internet surfer) that it was caused by something sprayed in the sky.

Everything I’ve seen described as a “chemtrail” can be explained with the long known science of contrails. It has nothing to do with a world view.

Chemtrails look NOTHING like contrails, so why keep pretending they do? .. People who are ill aren't worrying about proving how they got sick in a court of law .. They just want the US military to admit to what they are spraying in the atmosphere that is making them so ill, and then STOP IT.

“Chemtrails” look EXACTLY like contrails. 70+ years of science says they do. I’ve posted proof in this thread and others.

Look for a picture of a crop spraying aircraft. The spray comes out thick right by the nozzle and quickly spreads out and disappears. Contrails or "chemtrails" are the opposite. They often form many feet behind the nozzle and grow as they condense and pull moisture from the air. If “chemtrails” are a spray, how come they look different from every other sprayed chemical and exactly like contrails? If they look exactly like contrails, how is one supposed to identify them?

Again, as I’ve mentioned before and bolded within the quote above, The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Let me know if they ever get around to it.

Once again, chemtrails look nothing like contrails .. Just because the tanker jets don't spray chemtrails using the same method crop duster planes do, doesn't mean they aren't spraying anything, because they obviously are.

So in other words you CAN’T explain why your supposed spraying looks NOTHING like any other spraying and everything like contrails growing from moisture already in the air exactly as science says they can do.

If you know of a way to retrieve a chemical sample from a trail in the air, then by all means let the people who are researching this crime know how to do that .. If you don't know how to do that, then the ground samples will have to do.

Mentioned above. Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. Of course if you’d rather settle for samples collected on the ground then you’ll just have “evidence” which means nothing and proves nothing except the ineptness of those collecting.

The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Let me know if they ever get around to it.

[Len Colby]

Anytime Colby comes up with "evidence" attempting to prove me wrong, it's best to do some checking to see if it's really true or not.

Jose Trias was on a list of murdered micro biologists .. It was never mentioned on that list that he was not a scientist, but rather a lawyer who obviously knew too much about top secret programs and allegeldy decided to share that information with a "friend" the day before he and his wife were brutally murdered.

The fact that your sources research was so poor he did not know what Trias' profession was shows him not to be credible.

Then Colby decided to make the Trias murders appear to be just a run of the mill armed robbery, with a suspect already proven guilty .. NOT TRUE, as proven by the information he decided not to post here.

Double-murder conviction of Arnold man is overturned New trial ordered in deaths of lawyers

July 31, 1996|By Scott Wilson | Scott Wilson,SUN STAFF

The Maryland Court of Appeals overturned yesterday the double-murder conviction of Scotland E. Williams, ordering a new trial for the condemned Arnold man in the May 1994 slayings of two prominent Washington lawyers.

The state's highest court ruled unanimously that Williams was unfairly convicted last year on charges that he murdered Jose Trias and his wife, Julie Gilbert. The two were found dead in their Annapolis weekend home, hand-cuffed and shot in the head.

"Mr. Williams is once again presumed to be innocent," said Michael Braudes, a public defender who argued the Williams case before the Court of Appeals.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-07-31/news/1996213008_1_williams-case-anne-arundel-court-of-appeals

"NEWS

Son said he had slaying victims' bank cards, mother testifies Williams being retried in 1994 double slaying

By Andrea F. Siegel | Andrea F. Siegel,SUN STAFF | May 14, 1998

Scotland E. Williams, accused in a double killing, told his mother he had bank cards belonging to the victims a day or so after their bodies were discovered, the woman testified yesterday. Rosezelma J. Williams told an Anne Arundel Circuit Court jury that her son, who was staying at her Arnold home, also said he had gotten a car from "a parking lot or something" and taken it to Baltimore.Prosecutors are trying to show that the automated teller machine cards belonged to Jose E. Trias, 49, and Julie Noel Gilbert, 48, lawyers who were found dead May 16, 1994, in their weekend home in Winchester on the Severn.

Much more here...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/keyword/trias/recent/3

I was unaware of the conviction had been overturned. The decion was based on technicalities, Duane omitted the following from the 1st linked article:

The appeals courtruled that Anne Arundel Circuit Judge Eugene M. Lerner made three crucial mistakes during the trial:

He did not allow defense attorneys enough latitude in challenging the credibility of DNA evidence.

He allowed prosecutors to question a defense witness about his juvenile crime record.

He should not have allowed the prosecution to admit a pry bar and a can of Mace into evidence.

He was later found guilty again and that conviction withstood appeal:

An appeals court panel upheld yesterday the murder convictions and life without parole sentences of Scotland E. Williams, who was convicted of killing two lawyers in their waterfront retreat outside Annapolis in 1994.

Anne Arundel County prosecutors, who had retried the high-profile case in which they had initially won the death penalty only to lose it on retrial, said they were pleased with the Court of Special Appeals opinion, which was not unanimous.

Williams was convicted of fatally shooting and robbing Washington- area lawyers Jose E. Trias, 49, and Julie N. Gilbert, 48, his wife, in what police suspected was one of several burglaries Williams committed in the area around their Severn River-front home. He received two sentences of life without parole plus 70 years.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/52622419.html?dids=52622419:52622419&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+13,+2000&author=Andrea+F.+Siegel&pub=The+Sun&desc=Court+upholds+convictions,+sentencing+in+1994+killings;+Divided+ruling+says+little+about+key+objections+from+Williams'+defense&pqatl=google

He admitted to forcing them to give him their bank cards and PIN numbers then using the cards and stealing their car. But apparently they never called the police to report having been robbed.

And there was more evidence:

County police Detective Ed Stratton first recognized [scotland E. Williams] on a wanted poster, which police made from the bank surveillance video. After the suspect was arrested, Stratton discovered a key piece of evidence.

He had obtained - and kept - a photocopy of Williams' shoe print after arresting him in a earlier burglary. It turned out that that shoe print matched one found in the victims' kitchen.

"We happened to be talking about [the shoe print in the kitchen]. Stratton went out to the trunk of his car and came back with the photocopy 30 seconds later," said [Jeff Cover], who described Stratton as the behind-the-scenes star of the case."

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/94200875.html?dids=94200875:94200875&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+09,+2001&author=Laura+Barnhardt&pub=The+Sun&desc=Arundel+police+unit+to+be+featured+on+cable+TV+show+;+Episode+to+focus+on+1994+murder+case&pqatl=google

So yes they were murdered for a reason Scotland Williams wanted their money.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

The whole dead engineers/scientists/biologists/micro-biologists brouhaha (the lists vary) is based on ignorance.

According to the NSF in 2001 there were 2,157,300 scientists and 1,256,400 engineers employed in the US [1] for a total of 3,413,700. Presumably the numbers have grown since then but I looked into this in 2006 and that was the latest data I found at the time. This doesn’t of course count retired scientists and engineers (some of the “victims” on most lists were retired) or people with science and engineering degrees employed in other professions.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

“Biological scientists held about 91,300 jobs in 2008. In addition, many biological scientists held biology faculty positions in colleges and universities but are not included in these numbers. Those whose primary work involves teaching and research are considered postsecondary teachers.” [2]

I don’t know how many micro-biologists there are in the US but “During 2006, there were approximately 1,710 Microbiologists employed in NY”.[3] According to Census Dept figures (in 2009) 1 in 15.7 [4] Americans lived in NYS so 25,000 is a reasonable rough estimate.

According to the CDC [5] in 2003 the last year in which they had data 79.2 men (most people on the lists like most scientists are men) died of violent causes [6] per 100,000 population (pdf page 187, table 29). I don’t know how much social class affects these rates but whites, who as a whole are more affluent that other races, have virtually the same violent death rate (53.7) as the population as a whole 54.1 (see page 188). I would imagine the violent death rate for male scientists would be lower than that for the general population but the 79.2 statistic is for people of all ages, scientists are of course adults and adults have a higher death rate than the general population so these two factor would probably balance each other out. Accord to the CDC the Death Rate in the US is 8.04 deaths per 1000 [7] or one in 124 Americans (0.804%) will die in any gives year.

To make a long story short we would expect the violent death rate for scientists to be about 70 - 80 per 100,000 (i.e. 0.07 %) and there overall death rate about 10 - 12x higher

So we would expect about 8800 engineers and 15000 scientists, 640 of whom were biologists, 175 of whom were microbiologists to be murdered, commit suicide or die in accidents a year and 10 - 12x more to die of all causes

So Duane when you can compile a list of the above professionals who died unnatural deaths in a single year exceeding the numbers above get back to us. Remember retirees, professors, university researchers and people working outside the US don’t count.

PS - After writing the above I found the CDC stats for 2007, they showed a 15% increase in violent deaths from 52.7 to 60.5 [8]. So depending on the year the numbers should be increased proportionally.

1] http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf05313/pdf/tab1.pdf

2] http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm#emply

3] http://www.nycareerzone.org/cz/profile.jsp?onetsoc=19-1022.00

4] NYS - 19,541,453, USA - 307,006,550 http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+of+usa

5] http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027 (10 MG file not recommended for slow connections)

6] Total for unintentional injuries, suicide and homicide.

7] http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/us/popula.html page 5

8] ibid

[Duane Daman]

The evidence suggests that it was no random robbery that took out Jose Trias and his wife .. It appears that the two bit petty thief Scotland E. Williams played the role of Lee Harvey Oswald in this little charade.

The Howard Hughes Medical Institute

With an endowment of more than $11 billion, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute is the largest philanthropy in the US and possibly the most influential sponsor of biomedical research in the world. Choppin was its president from 1987 until the end of 1999. Its first grants were made in 1988. He is one of those peculiar Lasker entities, a virologist who doesn't care about viral causes of chronic disease, who channeled its funds into genetics research instead.

HHMI History / Howard Hughes Medical Institute

"The $11.8 billion medical research organization currently supplies about 22 percent of all nonprofit research support in biomedicine, funding some 331 investigators at 71 institutions, said Choppin. It has spent more than $5 billion since 1985 on its five areas of specialty: cell biology and regulation, immunology, neuroscience and structural biology; a new field -- computational biology -- is just emerging... 'This is small compared to the NIH budget, but substantial in terms of private support,' he said... While NIH is far and away the world's largest supporter of biomedical research, with a just-won FY 2000 budget of almost $18 billion, the government has not always been the principal funder of basic science. Choppin noted that in 1930, half of the financial support for medical research came from the private sector. By 1940, the private sector contributed only 27 percent of the total, a figure that dwindled to around 4 percent in 1980 and has remained in that vicinity ever since, he said. 'The rapid descent (in private support of science) that began in the forties corresponds with the flowering of the NIH,' he said. 'The sense was that the government was doing such an effective job that foundations directed their resources elsewhere.'" Sic. This so-called "flowering of the NIH" actually amounted to the Lasker Syndicate's stranglehold on our tax dollars for their objectives! "The lecture ended with a brief question session, during which it emerged that more than 70 percent of HHMI investigators also hold NIH grants." Golly, what a coincidence. (Trillions in philanthropy forecast - Choppin asserts role for private support of biomedicine. By Rich McManus. NIH Record Dec. 14, 1999.)

Choppin / NIH Record 1999

From "Microbiologist Death Toll Mounts As Connections to Dyncorp, Hadron, Promis Software & Disease Research Emerge. A Career in Microbiology Can Be Harmful to Your Health (Revised/Updated)." By Michael Davidson, FTW Staff Writer, and Michael C. Ruppert: "The Howard Hughes Medical Institute -- Another Link?"

"There is another intriguing connection between three of the five American scientists that have died. Wiley, Schwartz, and Benito Que worked for medical research facilities that received grants from Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI). HHMI funds a tremendous number of research programs at schools, hospitals and research facilities, and has long been alleged to be conducting 'black ops' biomedical research for intelligence organizations, including the CIA.

"Long-time biowarfare invstigator Patricia Dole, Ph.D. reports that there is a history of people connected to HHMI being murdered. In 1994, Jose Trias met with a friend in Houston, Texas and was planning to go public with his personal knowledge of HHMI 'front door' grants being diverted to 'back door' black ops bioresearch. The next day, Trias and his wife were found dead in their Chevy Chase, Md. home. Chevy Chase is where HHMI is headquartered. Police describe the killings as a professional hit. Tsunao Saitoh, who formerly worked at an HHMI-funded lab at Columbia University, was shot to death on May 7, 1996 while sitting in his car outside his home in La Jolla, Calif. Police also describe this as a professional hit."

http://www.smokershistory.com/Choppin.htm

The evidence also suggests that there's no conspiracy and cover up that Lewis and Colby won't pretend to debunk.