Chemtrails are back!

[Duane Daman]

Then, again, if you've lied in the past then you must be doing so now. Same logical fallacy. I'll bet you still won't see it.

That's a meaningless comparison, but I'll bet you still won't see it.

What part of "the video you posted as proof did not show low altitude spraying nor did they talk about it" do you not understand? Did you post the wrong video?

The video I posted not only showed low altitude spraying but the eyewitnesses stated the plane looked to be at around 4,000 feet.. Did you watch the wrong video?

Then say how exactly they are not the same thing. They show up in conditions conducive for contrail formation. They look exactly as contrails are known to look. The vast majority of "chemtrailers" say that the way to identify them is contrails never persist but "chemtrails" do. Jack says that. You've posted links and videos saying that. Every "chemtrailer" I've ever conversed with says that. YOU are the only one I've seen admit that contrails can persist. Saying they can not persist is UNTRUE about contrails. If it is not true then how do you identify a "chemtrail"?

Calling the researchers "chemtrailers" is as condescending as calling 911 researchers "truthers"... Also, putting "chemtrails" in quotes is a way to persuade the reader into believing they don't really exist, when all the evidence proves they really do.

Here you go with the old "persistent contrails" thing again.. Please give it a rest..Repeating this constantly is not a rebuttal to the existence of chemtrails.

So one reply agrees with you and he's automatically right? Why not actually address the claims before dismissing them? What about the replies to him showing he was wrong? Looks to me like TonyB was wrong.

Tony8 was NOT wrong, he was just in the minority on that disinfo site.. No replys from the brainwashed masses showed him to be wrong either.

Obvious video hoaxes? They're the ones being widely promoted by the "chemtrailers"! If they're so "obvious" then why do the likes of Will Thomas, Carnicom, and Rense fall for them and promote them? You sound like you haven't actually read the site. What has been presented that is "obvious disinformation"?

There you go with the "chemtrailers" thing again.. Chemtrail researchers like Will Thomas, Carnicom, and Rense are not the ones falling for the disinformation and the faked videos, nor are they the ones promoting the disiformation and faked videos.. "Debunkers" like "Uncinus" are the ones promoting the disinformation.. He proved that by pretending to debunk all of Caricom's evidence, along with legitimate chemtrail videos.

Of course I read that site .. That's how I know it's disformation .. I even read all of the comments there.. That's how I know Tony8 was right and that the "debunker Uncinus", who presents all the garbage on that web site, is wrong.

[Duane Daman]

Just how did he determine that those units were visiting?

I'm not certain, but I believed that the US DoD had been allocated blocks of IP addresses. A website might be able to tell that they had been visited by a DoD IP but not which unit owned that IP.

I'm willing to be corrected and have sent an e-mail to the DoD Network Operations Centre, asking that question.

I've never owned a web site, so I don't know the answer to that question.

Instead of sending an e-mail to the DoD Network Operations Centre, asking that question, why didn't you send an e-mail to the person who made those claims? .. There's plenty of info online on how to reach him.

I highly doubt the DoD would even admit they visited Carnicom's web site.

[Matthew Lewis]

IF someone from a base visited the site, it means only someone from the base visited the site. Last I checked, individual people were still free to believe what they wanted to. How does that prove anything? What were the mindsets of those visiting? Do they believe in "chemtrails"? Do they not? What was the percentage of visits from military locations compared to overall? We don't know any of those so we don't know if the visits are significant.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Matthew Lewis]

What part of "the video you posted as proof did not show low altitude spraying nor did they talk about it" do you not understand? Did you post the wrong video?

The video I posted not only showed low altitude spraying but the eyewitnesses stated the plane looked to be at around 4,000 feet.. Did you watch the wrong video?

You tell me. I watched the video YOU posted in post 201. When they showed "chemtrails" they either showed them with cirrus clouds showing them to be high up or zoomed in without any visual cues. I don't remember them talking about low spraying at all and since I've now asked where in the video that was and asked if it was the right video and you haven't answered I can only assume it is not in there.

Then say how exactly they are not the same thing. They show up in conditions conducive for contrail formation. They look exactly as contrails are known to look. The vast majority of "chemtrailers" say that the way to identify them is contrails never persist but "chemtrails" do. Jack says that. You've posted links and videos saying that. Every "chemtrailer" I've ever conversed with says that. YOU are the only one I've seen admit that contrails can persist. Saying they can not persist is UNTRUE about contrails. If it is not true then how do you identify a "chemtrail"?

Calling the researchers "chemtrailers" is as condescending as calling 911 researchers "truthers"... Also, putting "chemtrails" in quotes is a way to persuade the reader into believing they don't really exist, when all the evidence proves they really do.

Here you go with the old "persistent contrails" thing again.. Please give it a rest..Repeating this constantly is not a rebuttal to the existence of chemtrails.

What else should I call them? They are people who promote "chemtrails". As for the quotes, I don't believe in "chemtrails". I don't see why I should write it as a normal word when as far as I can tell it is only an internet myth.

In your rant about me saying persistent contrails you missed the questions I asked.

"Then say how exactly they are not the same thing."

"If it is not true then how do you identify a "chemtrail"?"

So one reply agrees with you and he's automatically right? Why not actually address the claims before dismissing them? What about the replies to him showing he was wrong? Looks to me like TonyB was wrong.

Tony8 was NOT wrong, he was just in the minority on that disinfo site.. No replys from the brainwashed masses showed him to be wrong either.

So what about their responses was wrong in your own words? What about the original post showing the study to be wrong is wrong in your own words? Why not actually address the claims?

Obvious video hoaxes? They're the ones being widely promoted by the "chemtrailers"! If they're so "obvious" then why do the likes of Will Thomas, Carnicom, and Rense fall for them and promote them? You sound like you haven't actually read the site. What has been presented that is "obvious disinformation"?

There you go with the "chemtrailers" thing again.. Chemtrail researchers like Will Thomas, Carnicom, and Rense are not the ones falling for the disinformation and the faked videos, nor are they the ones promoting the disiformation and faked videos.. "Debunkers" like "Uncinus" are the ones promoting the disinformation.. He proved that by pretending to debunk all of Caricom's evidence, along with legitimate chemtrail videos.

Of course I read that site .. That's how I know it's disformation .. I even read all of the comments there.. That's how I know Tony8 was right and that the "debunker Uncinus", who presents all the garbage on that web site, is wrong.

They put these "obvious video hoaxes" on their own sites. Often they are the first to bring them up after which others respond to them. How is that NOT promoting them? Again, WHAT on that site is disinformation?

Edited October 19, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Terry Mauro]

On a separate note, have you dropped your silly theories that

1)scientists/biologists/micro-biologists are being killed off

If you consider the brutal murders of these scientists, along with many others, as being "silly theories", then you really do need a reality check.

Yes Duane scientists - including, biologist even micro ones, get murdered, commit suicide and die in accidents. So do English teachers, antiques dealers, musicians and military officers as well as shoe-shine boys, school teachers, secretaries and seamstresses. In fact about 0.05% of all Americans die violent deaths every year. Men are more likely to die of unnatural causes than women. To demonstrate there is something amiss you have to show that scientists or specifically biologists/micro-biologists are murdered at greater than expected rates.

See post 209 of this thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15977&view=findpost&p=208708

) Trias was murdered to silence him?

The Williams' verdict of guilty was overturned.. He is now presumed innocent, unless proven guilty in a new court of law.

You really need to keep up, Williams was reconvicted at his 2nd trial, appealed again but his 2nd conviction was upheld. So he had his guilt proven in two courts before two judges and two juries. As per the latest hit for his name in Google News he is still serving his double life sentence

See post 208 of this thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15977&view=findpost&p=208706

"Do you keep missing this reply or do you just keep ignoring it?

The evidence suggests that it was no random robbery that took out Jose Trias and his wife .. It appears that the two bit petty thief Scotland E. Williams played the role of Lee Harvey Oswald in this little charade."

LHO was never even indicted let alone faced trial, Williams was convicted twice. LHO had no known contact with Kennedy or Connelly and the ID's of him as the person who shot Tippet disputed, Williams admitted to robbing the victims and is the last person know to have seen them alive, there was considerable forensic evidence linking him to the crime scene which claimed never to have been to.

"With an endowment of more than $11 billion, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute is the largest philanthropy in the US and possibly the most influential sponsor of biomedical research in the world. Choppin was its president from 1987 until the end of 1999. Its first grants were made in 1988..."

I have no idea why you think this is relevant

From "Microbiologist Death Toll Mounts As Connections to Dyncorp, Hadron, Promis Software & Disease Research Emerge. A Career in Microbiology Can Be Harmful to Your Health (Revised/Updated)." By Michael Davidson, FTW Staff Writer, and Michael C. Ruppert: "The Howard Hughes Medical Institute -- Another Link?"

"There is another intriguing connection between three of the five American scientists that have died. Wiley, Schwartz, and Benito Que worked for medical research facilities that received grants from Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI). HHMI funds a tremendous number of research programs at schools, hospitals and research facilities, and has long been alleged to be conducting 'black ops' biomedical research for intelligence organizations, including the CIA."

I don't consider Ruppert a credible source and even he only says CIA black-op funding "has long been alleged". Your previous source said HHMI "currently supplies about 22 percent of all nonprofit research support in biomedicine" thus a large percentage of biologists/doctors etc will have "worked for medical research facilities that received grants from" them.

"Long-time biowarfare invstigator Patricia Dole, Ph.D. reports that there is a history of people connected to HHMI being murdered. In 1994, Jose Trias met with a friend in Houston, Texas and was planning to go public with his personal knowledge of HHMI 'front door' grants being diverted to 'back door' black ops bioresearch. The next day, Trias and his wife were found dead in their Chevy Chase, Md. home. Chevy Chase is where HHMI is headquartered. Police describe the killings as a professional hit. Tsunao Saitoh, who formerly worked at an HHMI-funded lab at Columbia University, was shot to death on May 7, 1996 while sitting in his car outside his home in La Jolla, Calif. Police also describe this as a professional hit."

http://www.smokershi...com/Choppin.htm

Perfect example of the crack(pot) researchers you depend on

"Long-time biowarfare invstigator Patricia Dole, Ph.D."

Her last name is Doyle

"reports that there is a history of people connected to HHMI being murdered"

There's "a history" but the author could only cite 2!

"The next day, Trias and his wife were found dead in their Chevy Chase, Md. home."

No they were found dead in their vacation home 40 miles away, in Winchester-on-the-Severn, MD

"Police describe the killings as a professional hit."

BS, they described it as a robbery and arrested killer within days

"Tsunao Saitoh, who formerly worked at an HHMI-funded lab at Columbia University, was shot to death on May 7, 1996"

He worked there 1982 - 5*, i.e. for only 3 years, 11 years before the crime. If he knew something why did it take them over a decade to kill him?

* http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=hb7t1nb4v2&doc.view=frames&chunk.id=div00059&toc.depth=1&toc.id=

"HHMI is headquartered in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and employs more than 2,900 individuals across the U.S"* If we count all the people who ever worked their the number will be much higher. Some of these people will be murdered.

* http://community.sciencecareers.org/ctscinet/partners/hhmi/

The Baltimore Sun reported that the person finding the two victims had used his key to get in the house and this tripped the alarm, sending the police to the residence.

The killer "locked" the house and reset the "alarm" before leaving? Interesting.

[Len Colby]

My original comments, sometimes bolded by Duane

Duane's replies

My latest responses

"Yes Duane scientists - including, biologist even micro ones, get murdered, commit suicide and die in accidents. So do English teachers, antiques dealers, musicians and military officers as well as shoe-shine boys, school teachers, secretaries and seamstresses."

Lots of people get murdered, but English teachers, antiques dealers, musicians, shoe-shine boys, school teachers, secretaries and seamstresses don't work for top secret black programs.. Scientists and micro biologists do.

"You really need to keep up, Williams was reconvicted at his 2nd trial, appealed again but his 2nd conviction was upheld."

Apparently the info I read was out of date.

"LHO was never even indicted let alone faced trial, Williams was convicted twice."

So what? .. They both played the roles of patsys.

Williams was proven guilty twice, there is no reasonable doubt he killed them nor any basis for your characterization of him as a “patsy”. Not surprisingly you backed away from your previous position that “The Williams' verdict of guilty was overturned.. He is now presumed innocent, unless proven guilty in a new court of law.”

"Williams admitted to robbing the victims and is the last person know to have seen them alive, there was considerable forensic evidence linking him to the crime scene which claimed never to have been to."

Williams never admited to the murders.. Some lying convict that he was incarcerated with made that claim.. Williams always claimed he was innocent of killing the victims, but he did admit to stealing their car and an ATM card.

William’s story is not credible, he claimed to have stolen their car “from the parking lot of Damon's, a restaurant on Ritchie Highway in Arnold” according to Google Maps it is 3.9 miles from there to their weekend home “on the 1600 block of Father Urban Lane”. For his storey to be true we would have to believe the couple returned home without even calling their bank, friends, relatives or police. Did they walk since they presumably had no money? Does that seem realistic to you? No one cane forward to say they saw them. Or did they take a cab or get a ride? Once again no one came forward to say they drove the couple. In any case he was tied to house by DNA, fibers and a shoe print.

"Testimony on confession contradicted

March 08, 1995|By Dennis O'Brien | Dennis O'Brien,Sun Staff Writer

A convicted murderer told an Anne Arundel County Circuit jury yesterday that another inmate lied on the witness stand when he said Scotland E. Williams admitted killing two Washington lawyers.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-03-08/news/1995067055_1_spoon-trias-testimony

Irrelevant one inmate said he confessed another said he didn’t, he was convicted TWICE anyway because of the overwhelming evidence against him. He robbed them, he was in their house and lied about it, they wound up dead. How do you explain him using the ATM cards for several days after robbing them? If he thought they were alive he would have presumed they would block the cards.

What is the basis for your assumption the convict who said he confessed lied and the one he said he didn’t was telling the truth? Even if the former was lying the evidence against Williams was overwhelming.

"I have no idea why you think this is relevant."

It was relevant in explaining that the Howard Hughes Medical Institute is the largest philanthropy in the US and possibly the most influential sponsor of biomedical research in the world.

Why does that make it more likely Trias and his wife were murdered?

"I don't consider Ruppert a credible source and even he only says CIA black-op funding "has long been alleged."

Just because you don't consider him to be a credible source doesn't mean he isn't.

And just because you believe him to be doesn’t mean he is credible. Ruppert is a nut, he was bounced from the LAPD due to his psychological problems, there was a 2 part article in an LA newspaper in which people who knew him (including his dad) said he was delusional but he thought it put him in a good light and posted it on FTW. He was the lead suspect in the break-in at his office and apparently harassed a female staffer by walking into her office totally naked.

You chose to ignore the rest of my sentence, not even Ruppert claims to have evidence HHMI were involved in “black ops”. All have is rumors as reported by a nutcase.

"Perfect example of the crack(pot) researchers you depend on

"Long-time biowarfare invstigator Patricia Dole, Ph.D."

Her last name is Doyle."

You've never made a typo or spelled somebody's name wrong? .. Just because the "y" was left off her name, doesn't make someone's a "crackpot researcher".

It was just one of several distortions and errors.

"reports that there is a history of people connected to HHMI being murdered"

There's "a history" but the author could only cite 2!"

Only 2 murders is 2 too many.

I agree but there is no evidence of a link between their murders and their association with HHMI. It is not more than we would expect statistically. Two murders is not “a history”.

" "The next day, Trias and his wife were found dead in their Chevy Chase, Md. home."

No they were found dead in their vacation home 40 miles away, in Winchester-on-the-Severn, MD."

Semantics .. It was still their home.

Not “semantics”, you must have meant “nit picking” or something along those lines, it goes to show how superficial the author’s research was. If he had bothered to read even a single newspaper article he would have know where they were killed, they didn’t even live in Chevy Chase.

".."Police describe the killings as a professional hit."

BS, they described it as a robbery and arrested killer within days."

What was BS was framing some two but petty theif for their murders... Just because he was in possesion of their stolen property doesn't prove he murdered them.. He never admitted to the crime.

BS is your author lying about the case and you still finding him credible. There is no evidence Williams was framed, he was facing the death penalty, why would he confess?

".."Tsunao Saitoh, who formerly worked at an HHMI-funded lab at Columbia University, was shot to death on May 7, 1996"

He worked there 1982 - 5*, i.e. for only 3 years, 11 years before the crime. If he knew something why did it take them over a decade to kill him?"

Maybe he was getting ready to spill the beans on their top secret black projects, like Jose Trias was right before he was murdered.

There is no evidence either “was getting ready to spill the beans” other than the unsubstantiated claims of two misinformed, and possibly dishonest, bloggers. The first didn’t even know what Trias did for a living; the other didn’t know where he was murdered. Neither indicated someone had been convicted, the 2nd falsely claimed the cops said it was “a professional hit”.

".."HHMI is headquartered in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and employs more than 2,900 individuals across the U.S"* If we count all the people who ever worked their the number will be much higher. Some of these people will be murdered."

Since several already have been murdered, I have no doubt more will be added to that list.. So we finally agree on something.

Yes we can expect several more people from HHMI to be murdered; unfortunately the same can be said of any large organization, you have failed to produce evidence there is a connection between their deaths and their association (possibly many years before the fact) with the institute or that a statistically significant number of it current and ex-employees are murdered

[Len Colby]

The Baltimore Sun reported that the person finding the two victims had used his key to get in the house and this tripped the alarm, sending the police to the residence.

The killer "locked" the house and reset the "alarm" before leaving? Interesting.

I’ve read several articles in the Sun and other publications about the case and never saw anything along those lines. Can you provide a link?

[Terry Mauro]

The Baltimore Sun reported that the person finding the two victims had used his key to get in the house and this tripped the alarm, sending the police to the residence.

The killer "locked" the house and reset the "alarm" before leaving? Interesting.

I’ve read several articles in the Sun and other publications about the case and never saw anything along those lines. Can you provide a link?

It was located in a "cluster" of articles like you find with this link

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/keyword/trias/recent/3

The facts shouldnt be that hard to confirm or refute. My recollection from reading the article was their bodies were found inside the house. The person finding the bodies had to use his key to get into the house which set off an alarm, that according to the story, resulted in the police being dispatched to that location. If those facts are correct then you have to assume the murderer (s) locked the house and reset the alarm.

[Len Colby]

Your recollection was faulty

"The couple's co-workers became suspicious when they did not show up at their jobs Monday morning. A secretary at Ms. Gilbert's firm called a handyman who had a key to the house and asked him to check on the couple. He called police after finding the bodies."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-05-18/news/1994138002_1_gilbert-howard-hughes-co-workers

-No, mention of an alarm.

-The "handyman" not the security company called the cops

-He had a key but there is no mention of him using it

-Even if he used they key Williams could have entered and exited though a window or another door or could have locked the door to delay discovery of his crime

Edited October 19, 2010 by Len Colby

[Terry Mauro]

Your recollection was faulty

"The couple's co-workers became suspicious when they did not show up at their jobs Monday morning. A secretary at Ms. Gilbert's firm called a handyman who had a key to the house and asked him to check on the couple. He called police after finding the bodies."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-05-18/news/1994138002_1_gilbert-howard-hughes-co-workers

-No, mention of an alarm.

-The "handyman" not the security company called the cops

-He had a key but there is no mention of him using it

-Even if he used they key Williams could have entered and exited though a window or another door or could have locked the door to delay discovery of his crime

No my recollection isnt faulty. The article may be in error but then again the information you just posted may also be in error. Or there may be more than one version as is typical in these kind of cover up.

He did use a key and according to the Baltimore Sun this set off an alarm.

Now you got Williams going in and out of a window, or entering this door or that door. It's all speculation on your part. The fact that their alarm went off when the handyman let himself in is highly suspicious. It means the killer(s) would have had to reset it.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Terry Mauro

[Duane Daman]

My original comments, sometimes bolded by Duane

Duane's replies

My latest responses

Duane Daman, on 19 October 2010 - 01:04 AM, said:

"Yes Duane scientists - including, biologist even micro ones, get murdered, commit suicide and die in accidents. So do English teachers, antiques dealers, musicians and military officers as well as shoe-shine boys, school teachers, secretaries and seamstresses."

Lots of people get murdered, but English teachers, antiques dealers, musicians, shoe-shine boys, school teachers, secretaries and seamstresses don't work for top secret black programs.. Scientists and micro biologists do.

"You really need to keep up, Williams was reconvicted at his 2nd trial, appealed again but his 2nd conviction was upheld."

Apparently the info I read was out of date.

"LHO was never even indicted let alone faced trial, Williams was convicted twice."

So what? .. They both played the roles of patsys.

Williams was proven guilty twice, there is no reasonable doubt he killed them nor any basis for your characterization of him as a “patsy”. Not surprisingly you backed away from your previous position that “The Williams' verdict of guilty was overturned.. He is now presumed innocent, unless proven guilty in a new court of law.”

"Williams admitted to robbing the victims and is the last person know to have seen them alive, there was considerable forensic evidence linking him to the crime scene which claimed never to have been to."

Your color coding needs some work .. You put my replies in red, along with your questions .. I never bolded your comments.. The bolded comments were my replies to you.

Your evidence that Williams murdered those victims also needs some work .. In fact, it's as flimsy as the prosecution's evidence was .. Williams admitted to robbing the victims .. He never admitted to murdering them, nor was there any evidence produced by the prosecution proving that he pulled the trigger .. Nor was any murder weapon ever found... The "forensic evidence" consisted of some highy questionable, microscopic DNA and one alleged lone shoe print, both of which appeared to be manufactured by the prosecution team.

I can't believe the jury got sucked into believing Williams staged a professional hit just because the police never found any other convenient suspects to blame for those murders.

[Kevin M. West]

Unless it was on a timer. Alarms don't always have to be armed manually.

[Terry Mauro]

Unless it was on a timer. Alarms don't always have to be armed manually.

So was the alarm system on a timer? Tell us Kevin.

[Kevin M. West]

How would I know? I was only saying that your statement that the killers would have had to reset it is incorrect, there are other possibilities.

[Terry Mauro]

Williams was 5' 1"

This is a repeat of the Wayne Williams case in Atlanta back in 1981. It's literally identical from the fiber evidence and all the rest.

The higher court that threw out the coviction stated in their conclusion that there was NO evidence of Williams breaking into the home of the Trias. No evidence of a break in. Furthermore officials could not prove Williams wrote the note left hanging on the victims door.

There was no murder weapon produced, no witnesses and no proof Williams had broken into the victims home or even that he was allowed in by the victims or opened an unlocked door.