Chemtrails are back!

[Matthew Lewis]

"So you say. Any PROOF that they were murdered over "top secret, black ops, inside information"? Any proof that the numbered murdered is more than should be expected for that period of time? Just how many are in the world?"

Here's proof that this scientist was murdered because of his involvement with black ops projects .. Many of the other scientists were working on black projects also, though it's difficult to get that information, for obvious reasons.

Jose Trias, Died: May 19, 1994. Trias and his wife were murdered in their Chevy Chase, Maryland home. They met with a friend of theirs, a journalist, before the day of their murder and told him of their plan to expose HHMI (Howard Hughes Medical Institute) funding of "special ops" research. Grant money that goes to HHMI is actually diverted to special black ops research projects.

What PROOF did this website you got this from have that this conversation actually happened? Plus the last time I checked, so far that is just coincidence and not proof. Did you just believe because they said so and it happens to fit your world view? You also still ignored this part "Any proof that the numbered murdered is more than should be expected for that period of time? Just how many are in the world?" Some of them in that list worked on AIDS research too. Why should we believe you that all the deaths are related to "chemtrails"?

"You posted 12 links. NINE of them are broken. It is UNTRUE that most work."

I didn't count that many as being broken, but if you say so, then it only proves how hard some people are working to suppress the truth of chemtrails.<removed by moderator>

Seriously? You can't just own up to the FACT that YOU screwed up the links? <removed by moderator>

"EVERYTHING that has been attributed to "chemtrails" can be explained with contrails, INCLUDING "on/off spraying". Air is not always uniform and a plane traveling through air of varying moisture content can and will produce contrails that turn on and off."

No not "EVERYTHING". Contrails (even persistent ones) don't spray toxins in the air that fall to the ground, which make people ill... CHEMTRAILS do.

There is no PROOF that ANYTHING collected on the ground came from a trail 30,000+ feet in the air hence no proof that anything is being sprayed. Especially when the trail is still in the air (how can you still not realize that it can't be in two places at once?). Especially when one of your OWN LINKS said that aerosols could take WEEKS to fall to the ground.

Chemtrails are no longer a secret .. In fact, Operation Clover Leaf and Operation Raindance are no longer top secret programs, since so many people now know about them .. So it looks like no matter how hard you try to suppress the truth of chemtrail spraying, you're fighting a losing battle.

Any proof that Operation Clover Leaf or Raindance are even real?

"Not much proof, lots of supposition and ignorance. And of course more tests of samples COLLECTED ON THE GROUND. Why aren't you upset that they have promised samples that would actually prove something but they never do it?"

No, it's not a lot of proof yet, but considering the fact that many people have been murdered over exposing black op programs like Project Clover Leaf etc., it's surprising there's any publicly known evidence at all.. But I have no doubt that more evidence will be forthcoming as more of the world's population are made aware of what type of toxins are being sprayed in the skies above us.

So you sidestep the question which was "Why aren't you upset that they have promised samples that would actually prove something but they never do it?" with yet another promise that evidence is forthcoming.

"Why are you content with them lying to you?"

The people who are working hard to expose the truth of chemtrail poisoning are not the one's who are lying.

Here's another interesting web site about chemtrails, with lots of information from unbroken links, for you to pretend to debunk.

AEROSOL CRIMES & COVER UP

http://www.carnicom.com/

I don't have to debunk anything. Carnicom debunks himself. He's had multiple fake stories, photos and videos on his site. His standard of research is abyssmal. And he also can't agree on what the "chemtrails" are supposed to be for. I notice you didn't comment on that. So which is it Duane? Are they to control the weather, block the sun, enhance radar, make people sick, aid in satellite tracking, or assist in satellite mind control or whatever the current flavor of the week is? And they ARE LYING. The majority of them claim that contrails can't persist. YOU have said yourself that they can.

Here's a site fore you

http://contrailscience.com/

Edited October 10, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Jack White]

.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Jack White

[Matthew Lewis]

Pretty. So?

Here's another one.

Looks pretty similar. Except mine was taken in 1967, a full 30 years before "chemtrail" people say "chemtrails" were EVER seen before.

[Duane Daman]

"What PROOF did this website you got this from have that this conversation actually happened?"

What proof do you have that it didn't? .. It was proven that Trias and his wife were murdered .. The fact that the journalist's name was witheld only shows that he didn't want to be next on list.

"Did you just believe because they said so and it happens to fit your world view?"

I can't believe you're playing the "world view" card, considering what your obvious world view is.

You believe that JFK was murdered by lone nutter Lee Harvey Oswald, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary .. You believe that the official Apollo record has absolutely no anomalies or inconsistancies in it, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.. You believe that 911 happended exactly as the US goverment said it did, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.. So of course it comes as no surprise that you deny the existance and reality of chemtrails.

"You also still ignored this part "Any proof that the numbered murdered is more than should be expected for that period of time? Just how many are in the world?" Some of them in that list worked on AIDS research too. Why should we believe you that all the deaths are related to "chemtrails"? "

I have no idea how many micro biologists are in the world, but the murder of over 100 of them is proof enough that they were deliberately silenced, regardless of which black programs they were involved with.

"Seriously? You can't just own up to the FACT that YOU screwed up the links?"

Seriously? .. What is your obsession with a few broken links? .. It happens .. Get over it.

"There is no PROOF that ANYTHING collected on the ground came from a trail 30,000+ feet in the air hence no proof that anything is being sprayed. Especially when the trail is still in the air (how can you still not realize that it can't be in two places at once?). Especially when one of your OWN LINKS said that aerosols could take WEEKS to fall to the ground."

Actually it's been proven that most of the chemtrail spraying is taking place at much lower altitudes than 30,000 feet.. They've been spotted as low as 6,000 to 10,000 feet, which takes the chemical fallout only two to three days to fall to the ground.

"Any proof that Operation Clover Leaf or Raindance are even real?"

Many researchers think those programs are real .. The code names Operation Clover Leaf, Raindance, Popeye and Red Sky keep coming up on sites where the chemtrail conspircy is being researched and discussed.

"The U.S. government has a long history of denying inexcusable covert operations. These are the people who told you about the joys of nuclear radiation, that Agent Orange could defoliate a tropical jungle overnight but was harmless to humans. This is the same government that secretly experimented on its citizens with everything from syphilis to LSD, concludes Horowitz.

The Pentagon would now have the public believe that the mass sightings of chemtrails over Las Vegas and much of North America are collective hallucinations, even though the boys at the government's Lawrence Livermore experimental lab admit that they've discussed massive aerial spraying and run computer simulations on the effects of weather modification for military and peacetime purposes.

Commenting under condition of anonymity a Tribune confidential source speculates: "Whatever this material is, it cannot be good for us. Moreover, it represents another example of Americans taking their liberty and well being for granted. It may be that weather agencies, NASA and National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration know enough to keep their mouths shut."

"The overall scope and agenda behind chemtrails - Operation Clover Leaf, Operation Red Sky, Operation Rain Dance - the code names for these ops - intertwines several overall objectives deemed imperative by the real power in DC, which is the National Security Administration. It should be noted that most of the intel groups that are involved in domestic control are, in varying degrees, in-the-loop on this business and are actively working with the Office of Naval Intelligence and the NSA in seeing this program succeed," concludes the source."

http://www.millennium-ark.net/NEWS/05_Weird/051128.chemtrails2.html

"So you sidestep the question which was "Why aren't you upset that they have promised samples that would actually prove something but they never do it?" with yet another promise that evidence is forthcoming."

Why do you keep sidesteping the data which has already been presented, by claiming it doesn't exist, when it cleary does?.. I've already provided the evidence of exactly what toxins have been found on the ground, beneath where chemtrails have been seen criss crossing the sky above.

These are the toxins that have been recovered after chemtrail spraying has been observed.

1. Aluminum barium

2. Aluminum Oxide

3. Bacilli and Molds

4. Pseudomonas Aeruginosa

5. Pseudomonas Florescens

6. Bacilli Amyloliquefaciens

7. Streptomyces

8. Enterobacteriaceae

9. Serratia Marcscens

10. Human white Blood Cells-A restrictor enzyme used in research labs to snip and combine DNA

11. Enterobacter Cloacal

12. Other Bacilli and other toxic molds capable of producing heart disease and meningitis as well as acute upper respiratory and gastrointestinal distress.

13. Carcinogen Zinc Cadmium Sulfide.

"I don't have to debunk anything. Carnicom debunks himself. He's had multiple fake stories, photos and videos on his site. His standard of research is abyssmal. And he also can't agree on what the "chemtrails" are supposed to be for. I notice you didn't comment on that. So which is it Duane? Are they to control the weather, block the sun, enhance radar, make people sick, aid in satellite tracking, or assist in satellite mind control or whatever the current flavor of the week is?"

There's a vast difference between debunking one's own evidence and research and not know exactly WHY these poisons are being spread via chemtrails.. Therefore there's a number of different theories as to why this is taking place.. Obviously the only people who have the correct answer to WHY, are the people who order the spraying.

"And they ARE LYING. The majority of them claim that contrails can't persist. YOU have said yourself that they can."

Like I said before, they are not the one's who are lying .. In fact, some of these investigators have commented that some contrails do persist, but have discovered that there is a vast difference between persistant contrails and toxic chemtrails.

"Looks pretty similar. Except mine was taken in 1967, a full 30 years before "chemtrail" people say "chemtrails" were EVER seen before."

I didn't see any proof that the picture was taken in 1967, but even if it was it doesn't matter, since chemtrails ( along with similar top secret government programs) have been around as far back as the 1940's.

"The U.S. military has been spraying chemical and biological weapons in open air testing over civilian populations since the 1940s. They are called "vulnerability tests." This is not a controversial statement. The military has admitted to this practice on many occasions and there’s plenty of documentation from the government to corroborate it. There is also documentation of intentional, experimental releases of radiation on civilian populations."

"Joint Quarterly report No. 3 is a military report on the spraying of Minneapolis with zinc cadmium sulfide florescent particles over a three month period in 1953. The people were never forewarned. Zinc cadmium sulfide is a silvery-white electropositive metal. It is used to test dispersal patterns. This means it acts like an X-ray in the sky showing the routes that sprayed particulates take when dispersing. The military, in a "hazardous chemicals" report describes, "Cadmium oxide fume is a severe pulmonary irritant; cadmium dust also is a pulmonary irritant, but it is less potent than cadmium fume because it has a larger particle size. The dust, at high concentrations, could be expected to cause the same physiological effects as those arising from fume exposure. Exposure to airborne cadmium is associated with nephrotoxicity. Several inorganic cadmium compounds cause malignant tumors in animals." Repeated exposure to lower levels of cadmium in air has resulted in chronic poisoning characterized by irreversible lung injury of the emphysematous type with abnormal lung function."

"We know by their own reports that the military has dropped nerve agent VX out of jets over Utah, actually over half a million pounds over an eighteen-year period (1951 –1968). Once again, the people were not informed.

In 1965, Operation Big Tom involved the spraying of Bacillus Globigii over Oahu Hawaii during a 2-month period. No civilians were informed, no one’s health was subsequently monitored.

For three months in 1966, the Airforce dropped bomblets filled with benzilic acid—a mind-altering chemical—into the Waiakea Forest Reserve southwest of Hilo, Hawaii. No civilians were warned.

These are by no means the only documented cases of open air vulnerability testing on unsuspecting civilian populations. This research paper represents a small sample in a large volume of documentation that attests to the fact of the military’s abuse of civilian populations and it’s abuse of the earth as a whole. It should be noted that none of this information was given of free accord. It was gathered during congressional hearings, lawsuits, and investigations. We can only assume, from the monumental efforts required to acquire these reports, and the government’s typical 30 year delay in declassifying documents-whatever documents they have not already destroyed or hidden-that many more heinous and dangerous experiments have been performed than we will ever be privy to. And based on this consistent history of the military’s abhorrent behavior in these matters, we can also assume that experimentation has never ceased, and continues today without our knowledge or consent."

http://educate-yourself.org/ct/pellattyouarebeingsprayeAnov07.shtml

"Witnesses have documented and photographed military KC-135's, KC-105 and white unmarked jets spray chemtrails. Airport personnel and pilots confirmed specific commercial airliners leaving the long-lasting chemtrails. Although chemtrails are frequently reported, the US Government continues to deny the existence of chemtrails."

"In 1994, it was established in a senate committee that the military was developing genetically engineered pathogens since the 1960's when the military initiated a special viral cancer program with the intent to create contagious cancers for biowarfare? There is much laboratory evidence that gels, webs, powders and blood cells have been used to harbor viruses, mycoplasma and/or other bio-engineered toxins until they reach their host. Who besides the department of defense would have the money, power and inclination to besmirch our atmosphere with biological materials and have legal and media immunity?"

http://www.mayanmajix.com/art2152.html

So much for your 1967 picture.

[Matthew Lewis]

"What PROOF did this website you got this from have that this conversation actually happened?"

What proof do you have that it didn't? .. It was proven that Trias and his wife were murdered .. The fact that the journalist's name was witheld only shows that he didn't want to be next on list.

I NEVER said he wasn't murdered. But whether he had a conversation with a journalist the day before or not is still just a cloincidence without actual PROOF.

"Did you just believe because they said so and it happens to fit your world view?"

I can't believe you're playing the "world view" card, considering what your obvious world view is.

You believe that JFK was murdered by lone nutter Lee Harvey Oswald, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary .. You believe that the official Apollo record has absolutely no anomalies or inconsistancies in it, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.. You believe that 911 happended exactly as the US goverment said it did, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.. So of course it comes as no surprise that you deny the existance and reality of chemtrails.

JFK is irrelevant but I guarantee that you don't know my opinion on it so don't act like you do. 911 is also irrelevant. I don't believe exacly what the government said but I don't subscribe to Jack's fantasies either.

"You also still ignored this part "Any proof that the numbered murdered is more than should be expected for that period of time? Just how many are in the world?" Some of them in that list worked on AIDS research too. Why should we believe you that all the deaths are related to "chemtrails"? "

I have no idea how many micro biologists are in the world, but the murder of over 100 of them is proof enough that they were deliberately silenced, regardless of which black programs they were involved with.

Without the CONTEXT of how many total microbiologist, virologists, etc. there are in the world and what the normal death and murder rate is, kinowing that 100 of them were killed is as good as meaningless. Not all of them were murdered.

"Seriously? You can't just own up to the FACT that YOU screwed up the links?"

Seriously? .. What is your obsession with a few broken links? .. It happens .. Get over it.

Is that you actually taking responsibility then? Because the PROBLEM was that you were accusing others of "working to suppress the truth of chemtrails" based on YOUR inability to correctly copy links from a different forum. Are you withdrawing that accusation?

"There is no PROOF that ANYTHING collected on the ground came from a trail 30,000+ feet in the air hence no proof that anything is being sprayed. Especially when the trail is still in the air (how can you still not realize that it can't be in two places at once?). Especially when one of your OWN LINKS said that aerosols could take WEEKS to fall to the ground."

Actually it's been proven that most of the chemtrail spraying is taking place at much lower altitudes than 30,000 feet.. They've been spotted as low as 6,000 to 10,000 feet, which takes the chemical fallout only two to three days to fall to the ground.

EVERY video or photo I've seen of them shows them among cirrus clouds (not surprising as contrails are in effect cirrus clouds themselves) which places them much higher. It is nearly impossible to tell altitude of a plane from the ground with the naked eye and the inability of "chemtrail" proponents to do so is longstanding. Perhaps you could post some of this "proof"?

"Any proof that Operation Clover Leaf or Raindance are even real?"

Many researchers think those programs are real ..

Bolded part is all that's necessary. Thanks.

"So you sidestep the question which was "Why aren't you upset that they have promised samples that would actually prove something but they never do it?" with yet another promise that evidence is forthcoming."

Why do you keep sidesteping the data which has already been presented, by claiming it doesn't exist, when it cleary does?.. I've already provided the evidence of exactly what toxins have been found on the ground, beneath where chemtrails have been seen criss crossing the sky above.

I haven't sidestepped anything. EVERY sample taken has been collected on the ground. There has not been any steps taken to rule out local contamination. Most samples are taken while the trails are still in the air! You have even admitted that if the trail was as low as "6,000 to 10,000" feet it would takes days to fall to the ground.

"I don't have to debunk anything. Carnicom debunks himself. He's had multiple fake stories, photos and videos on his site. His standard of research is abyssmal. And he also can't agree on what the "chemtrails" are supposed to be for. I notice you didn't comment on that. So which is it Duane? Are they to control the weather, block the sun, enhance radar, make people sick, aid in satellite tracking, or assist in satellite mind control or whatever the current flavor of the week is?"

There's a vast difference between debunking one's own evidence and research and not know exactly WHY these poisons are being spread via chemtrails.. Therefore there's a number of different theories as to why this is taking place.. Obviously the only people who have the correct answer to WHY, are the people who order the spraying.

IF spraying is actually happening anyway.

"And they ARE LYING. The majority of them claim that contrails can't persist. YOU have said yourself that they can."

Like I said before, they are not the one's who are lying .. In fact, some of these investigators have commented that some contrails do persist, but have discovered that there is a vast difference between persistant contrails and toxic chemtrails.

MOST (including Jack White) say that contrails do not persist.

"Looks pretty similar. Except mine was taken in 1967, a full 30 years before "chemtrail" people say "chemtrails" were EVER seen before."

I didn't see any proof that the picture was taken in 1967, but even if it was it doesn't matter, since chemtrails ( along with similar top secret government programs) have been around as far back as the 1940's.

So you say, but the existence of spraying from the ground (one of your tests was from a ship (you omitted that part), one mentioned a bomblet, and another mentioned jets. I guarantee they all were below 1,000 feet. You can't guarantee ANY effect unless you are lower than that.) says nothing about spraying from 30,000+ feet in the air especially when it looks the same as a contrail. Look for a picture of a crop spraying aircraft. The spray comes out thick right by the nozzle and quickly spreads out and disappears. Contrails or "chemtrails" are the opposite. They often form many feet behind the nozzle and grow as they pull moisture from the air.

MOST "chemtrail" proponent say they were never seen before the late 90's. You take away that distinguishing characteristic and the lie that contrails never persist and you have no way to claim anything looks different now than it used to. You have no reason to think any spraying is happening.

So are you responding for Jack now? We all know he won't. Of course there was that one post of his that looked more like it came from you.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Duane Daman]

"INEVER said he wasn't murdered. But whether he had a conversation with a journalist the day before or not is still just a cloincidence without actual PROOF."

Only the murdered scientist's journalist friend could provide the actual proof of that conversation.. But considering the fact that his friends were MURDERED the day after their meeting, it's understandable why he chooses to remain anonymous.. Or does your world view not even allow you to undertand that?

"JFK is irrelevant but I guarantee that you don't know my opinion on it so don't act like you do. 911 is also irrelevant. I don't believe exacly what the government said but I don't subscribe to Jack's fantasies either."

None of those subjects are irrelevant.. You made them all very relevant when you played the old "world view" card.. Your world view obviously being very different from mine, or from Jack's.. Speaking of which, he's not the only person in the world who believes the official government version of 911 is a lie .. The evidence that is was some type of false flag operation is also overwhelming.. So you calling them "fantasies" is not only an insult, but also pretty immature.

"Without the CONTEXT of how many total microbiologist, virologists, etc. there are in the world and what the normal death and murder rate is, kinowing that 100 of them were killed is as good as meaningless. Not all of them were murdered."

No, not all of them were murdered, but enough of those scientists were brutally murdered, in ways which leaves no doubt they were all killed to assure their silence.. It's not only the number of them murdered that's alarming, but also the way in which they were all murdered. If you refuse to see that, then it must be your world view that's clouding your judgement on this issue as well.

"Is that you actually taking responsibility then? Because the PROBLEM was that you were accusing others of "working to suppress the truth of chemtrails" based on YOUR inability to correctly copy links from a different forum. Are you withdrawing that accusation?"

Your obsession with a few broken links is ridiculous.. When I copied the text, along with that chemtrail video, I didn't check every single link, so that was my fault.. The few I did check were working fine when I made that post.. Do I withdraw my claim that people are working hard to suppress the truth of chemtrails? .. Absolutely not .. That's quite obvious.

"EVERY video or photo I've seen of them shows them among cirrus clouds (not surprising as contrails are in effect cirrus clouds themselves) which places them much higher. It is nearly impossible to tell altitude of a plane from the ground with the naked eye and the inability of "chemtrail" proponents to do so is longstanding. Perhaps you could post some of this "proof"?"

I've already posted the proof that chemtrails are being sprayed at much lower altitudes than the 30,000 feet you keep claiming only "persistent contrails" are seen.. The proof of their lower altitude spraying is in every video that both Jack and I have posted here.

"Bolded part is all that's necessary. Thanks."

Unless the people working to uncover the truth of chemtrals are INSIDERS, then they can only go by what they are told by certain whistle-blower insiders, as to what the names of these top secret chemtrail operations are.. Or does your world view not allow you to undertant that fact either?

"I haven't sidestepped anything. EVERY sample taken has been collected on the ground. There has not been any steps taken to rule out local contamination. Most samples are taken while the trails are still in the air! You have even admitted that if the trail was as low as "6,000 to 10,000" feet it would takes days to fall to the ground."

According to what I've read, it takes two to three days for the chemtrails toxins to fall to the ground.. Local ground contamination has already been ruled out, since all of the eye witnesses and researchers involved have conducted their experiments a few days after seeing chemtrail planes spraying overhead.

"IF spraying is actually happening anyway."

There's no "IF" about it .. Chemtrails are a proven fact .. It's just the reasons why they are being sprayed by the military, that remains a mystery.

"MOST (including Jack White) say that contrails do not persist."

And some claim they do, including me .. But like I said before, there's a vast difference between lingering contrails and chemtrails.. Even persistent contrails eventually dissipate, unlike chemtrails that cover large portions of the sky, long after the planes are gone.

"So you say, but the existence of spraying from the ground (one of your tests was from a ship (you omitted that part), one mentioned a bomblet, and another mentioned jets."

I only copied the parts that were relevent to the discussion, which are toxins being sprayed from planes, not toxins being spread from ships, etc.

"MOST "chemtrail" proponent say they were never seen before the late 90's. You take away that distinguishing characteristic and the lie that contrails never persist and you have no way to claim anything looks different now than it used to. You have no reason to think any spraying is happening."

I doubt that most people studying chemtrail spraying today are even aware of the fact that US military black programs were spraying chemicals on the population during the 1940's, 50's and 60's .. Plus, the spraying during that time period was not as obvious or as widepread as it became in the 1990's, through today.

People all over the planet are very aware that the skies look very different than they used to .. This is not a question of thinking the spraying s taking place.. We KNOW it's taking place.. We just don't know the exact reasons why.

[Matthew Lewis]

"INEVER said he wasn't murdered. But whether he had a conversation with a journalist the day before or not is still just a cloincidence without actual PROOF."

Only the murdered scientist's journalist friend could provide the actual proof of that conversation.. But considering the fact that his friends were MURDERED the day after their meeting, it's understandable why he chooses to remain anonymous.. Or does your world view not even allow you to undertand that?

I didn't ever say anything about the source being anonymous. It is still a coincidence that the murder was the next day. There is no proven connection. Does it look suspicious? Sure. Is it related to "chemtrails"? No.

"JFK is irrelevant but I guarantee that you don't know my opinion on it so don't act like you do. 911 is also irrelevant. I don't believe exacly what the government said but I don't subscribe to Jack's fantasies either."

None of those subjects are irrelevant.. You made them all very relevant when you played the old "world view" card.. Your world view obviously being very different from mine, or from Jack's.. Speaking of which, he's not the only person in the world who believes the official government version of 911 is a lie .. The evidence that is was some type of false flag operation is also overwhelming.. So you calling them "fantasies" is not only an insult, but also pretty immature.

Jack still believes in an explosion in Building 6. Twice on this forum video evidence has been posted showing that his still which he thinks shows an explosion is in fact a dust cloud from a collapse.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5594&st=855

There is no proof, nor evidence of such an explosion. That IS a fantasy. It is also NOT related to "chemtrails".

Is there any conspiracy you don't believe in?

"Without the CONTEXT of how many total microbiologist, virologists, etc. there are in the world and what the normal death and murder rate is, kinowing that 100 of them were killed is as good as meaningless. Not all of them were murdered."

No, not all of them were murdered, but enough of those scientists were brutally murdered, in ways which leaves no doubt they were all killed to assure their silence.. It's not only the number of them murdered that's alarming, but also the way in which they were all murdered. If you refuse to see that, then it must be your world view that's clouding your judgement on this issue as well.

Again, you are ignoring CONTEXT.

"Is that you actually taking responsibility then? Because the PROBLEM was that you were accusing others of "working to suppress the truth of chemtrails" based on YOUR inability to correctly copy links from a different forum. Are you withdrawing that accusation?"

Your obsession with a few broken links is ridiculous.. When I copied the text, along with that chemtrail video, I didn't check every single link, so that was my fault.. The few I did check were working fine when I made that post.. Do I withdraw my claim that people are working hard to suppress the truth of chemtrails? .. Absolutely not .. That's quite obvious.

No obsession here. Just trying to get YOU to own up to YOUR mistakes. I have no problem with you believing that there are people working to suppress whatever truth you believe in. The problem is YOU are accusing those on this forum of covering something up simply because YOU didn't copy links correctly.

"EVERY video or photo I've seen of them shows them among cirrus clouds (not surprising as contrails are in effect cirrus clouds themselves) which places them much higher. It is nearly impossible to tell altitude of a plane from the ground with the naked eye and the inability of "chemtrail" proponents to do so is longstanding. Perhaps you could post some of this "proof"?"

I've already posted the proof that chemtrails are being sprayed at much lower altitudes than the 30,000 feet you keep claiming only "persistent contrails" are seen.. The proof of their lower altitude spraying is in every video that both Jack and I have posted here.

I have seen no proof of low altitude spraying. I've seen plenty of pics and videos posted by many people on many forums claiming low altitude spraying but in none of them do they actually prove it. They all appear to be among cirrus clouds which are a high altitude phenomenon.

"I haven't sidestepped anything. EVERY sample taken has been collected on the ground. There has not been any steps taken to rule out local contamination. Most samples are taken while the trails are still in the air! You have even admitted that if the trail was as low as "6,000 to 10,000" feet it would takes days to fall to the ground."

According to what I've read, it takes two to three days for the chemtrails toxins to fall to the ground.. Local ground contamination has already been ruled out, since all of the eye witnesses and researchers involved have conducted their experiments a few days after seeing chemtrail planes spraying overhead.

Just waiting a few days does NOT rule out local contamination. Thinking such is absurd. Not all have "conducted their experiments a few days after seeing chemtrail planes spraying overhead". Many take their samples while the trails are in the air. Many, including yourself claim ill effects while trails are still in the air. If you accept that particulates would take at least a few days to reach the ground then you should also realize that they wold not fall directly below where the trail was. They would be hundreds of miles away and dissipated to such minute concentration to be virtually undetectable.

"IF spraying is actually happening anyway."

There's no "IF" about it .. Chemtrails are a proven fact .. It's just the reasons why they are being sprayed by the military, that remains a mystery.

"Chemtrails" are an internet myth perpetuated by ignorance and outright lies.

"MOST (including Jack White) say that contrails do not persist."

And some claim they do, including me .. But like I said before, there's a vast difference between lingering contrails and chemtrails.. Even persistent contrails eventually dissipate, unlike chemtrails that cover large portions of the sky, long after the planes are gone.

Not according to news reports from WWII and the decades following. See post 105 and/or www.contrailscience.com for details.

"So you say, but the existence of spraying from the ground (one of your tests was from a ship (you omitted that part), one mentioned a bomblet, and another mentioned jets."

I only copied the parts that were relevent to the discussion, which are toxins being sprayed from planes, not toxins being spread from ships, etc.

Only one I saw on there was sprayed by jets. Release does not equal spraying. Again, I guarantee if sprayed they did it from less than 1,000 feet. You can't aim at all otherwise. Some others did not mention the method of delivery.

"MOST "chemtrail" proponent say they were never seen before the late 90's. You take away that distinguishing characteristic and the lie that contrails never persist and you have no way to claim anything looks different now than it used to. You have no reason to think any spraying is happening."

I doubt that most people studying chemtrail spraying today are even aware of the fact that US military black programs were spraying chemicals on the population during the 1940's, 50's and 60's .. Plus, the spraying during that time period was not as obvious or as widepread as it became in the 1990's, through today.

People all over the planet are very aware that the skies look very different than they used to .. This is not a question of thinking the spraying s taking place.. We KNOW it's taking place.. We just don't know the exact reasons why.

I have posted proof that contrails have persisted, spread, and formed a cloud layer in many decades before the 90's. The reason it "became widespread" is due to an increase in jet traffic, a redesign of jet engines to cut noise and save fuel, and higher jet traffic due to increased traffic and more efficient engines. People don't KNOW that spraying is taking place. They THINK it is because somebody on the internet said so, said that it never used to happen, and says that contrails can't persist. At least two of those are lies. I've posted proof of that and you've agreed.

Everything I've seen can be explained by contrails. The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Seriously. So far though all that has happened is people proming it, collecting money and then never delivering. That is fraud. Many of the same people have produced deliberately faked pictures and videos. Why would I want to be associated with frauds and liars?

[Duane Daman]

"I didn't ever say anything about the source being anonymous. It is still a coincidence that the murder was the next day. There is no proven connection. Does it look suspicious? Sure. Is it related to "chemtrails"? No."

You think the scientist and his wife being brutally murdered one day after revealing the fact that he was involved in working on top secret black programs, was just a coincidence??? .. Again, it must be your particular would view that's clouding your judgement.

"Jack still believes in an explosion in Building 6. Twice on this forum video evidence has been posted showing that his still which he thinks shows an explosion is in fact a dust cloud from a collapse.

http://educationforu...pic=5594&st=855

There is no proof, nor evidence of such an explosion. That IS a fantasy."

I don't know enough about that subject to make a comment, but if Jack is incorrect about one aspect of the 911 attacks, that still doesn't make all of his research "fantasies", as you would like everyone to believe.

"It is also NOT related to "chemtrails".

I never said it was .. You're the one who played the "world view" card, not me.

"Is there any conspiracy you don't believe in?"

Is there any typical insult you don't use while pretending to debunk every word I post here?

"Again, you are ignoring CONTEXT."

The CONTEXT is they were brutally murdered to assure their silence... What more CONTEXT do you need?

"No obsession here. Just trying to get YOU to own up to YOUR mistakes. I have no problem with you believing that there are people working to suppress whatever truth you believe in. The problem is YOU are accusing those on this forum of covering something up simply because YOU didn't copy links correctly."

I already said it was my fault for not checking ALL of those links.. Did you perhaps miss that? .. There most definately are people working hard to suppress the truth of chemtrails, along with many other conspiracies.. but my believing in certain conspiracies has nothing to do with that.

Nice try at slinging even more insults, but I NEVER accused anyone on this forum of having anything to do with the broken links that I posted here.. Your obsession with a few broken links has now become absurd.

"I have seen no proof of low altitude spraying. I've seen plenty of pics and videos posted by many people on many forums claiming low altitude spraying but in none of them do they actually prove it. They all appear to be among cirrus clouds which are a high altitude phenomenon."

If you haven't seen any proof of low altitude spraying then you haven't looked up at the sky recently, because it's taking place everywhere... The videos taken by people have also proven the low altitude spraying is taking place.. You should watch some of the videos that prove this is happening, instead of refusing to admit the truth.

"Just waiting a few days does NOT rule out local contamination. Thinking such is absurd. Not all have "conducted their experiments a few days after seeing chemtrail planes spraying overhead". Many take their samples while the trails are in the air. Many, including yourself claim ill effects while trails are still in the air. If you accept that particulates would take at least a few days to reach the ground then you should also realize that they wold not fall directly below where the trail was. They would be hundreds of miles away and dissipated to such minute concentration to be virtually undetectable."

Nice try, but the toxic samples collected on the ground are directly related to the toxins that have been sprayed from the chemtrail planes above, regardless of how long the contamination took to reach the ground.. This is also a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not.

" "Chemtrails" are an internet myth perpetuated by ignorance and outright lies."

That has to be the most absurd accusation you've made so far .. Chemtrails are a frightening reality .. They are not only being observed and video taped by people all over the world, but finally some scientists are taking them seriously enough to conduct tests of the toxons involved, and also the ill effects these toxins are havng on people all over the world.. Just because the internet is used to expose this top secret program doesn't make it an "internet myth", or a "lie" .. The people who have become ill from the chemtrails have no reason to lie, nor do the people conducting studies on the toxic samples, nor do the people who are working so hard to get this evidence and information out to the general public.. The only people who have reason to lie are the ones trying to suppress the truth of the chemtrail operations.. So why do you choose to believe their lies, instead of the truth that chemtrails are real?

"Not according to news reports from WWII and the decades following. See post 105 and/or www.contrailscience.com for details."

It doesn't matter if SOME contrails persist, because chemtrails are NOT the same thing as contrails.. Contrails usually take place at much higher altitudes, like around 30,000 feet .. Chemtrails are being seen and recorded at much lower altitudes.. People have also observed the chemtrails planes that turn around to spray the same area.. There would be no reason for a normal flight, displaying contrails, to turn around to create loops, x's, patterns that resemble letters, or grids that look like a tic tac toe game .. These are CHEMTRAIL jets making these patterns in the sky .. They are NOT normal contrails.

"Only one I saw on there was sprayed by jets. Release does not equal spraying. Again, I guarantee if sprayed they did it from less than 1,000 feet. You can't aim at all otherwise. Some others did not mention the method of delivery."

It doesn't matter that only one was sprayed by jets .. What matters is the PROOF that the US military was spraying ( among other methods) the American population with bio weapon toxins during the 1940's, 50's and 60's, are are still spraying them today in the form of CHEMTRAILS.. Most of which are delivered by US Air Force tanker jets.

"I have posted proof that contrails have persisted, spread, and formed a cloud layer in many decades before the 90's. The reason it "became widespread" is due to an increase in jet traffic, a redesign of jet engines to cut noise and save fuel, and higher jet traffic due to increased traffic and more efficient engines. People don't KNOW that spraying is taking place. They THINK it is because somebody on the internet said so, said that it never used to happen, and says that contrails can't persist. At least two of those are lies. I've posted proof of that and you've agreed."

You think the way to "save fuel" is to CIRCLE BACK REPEATEDLY TO MAKE LOOPS, X'S, LETTERS, AND GRID PATTERNS OVER CERTAIN AREAS??? .. People don't think chemtrails are taking place.. They KNOW they are taking place .. They also KNOW that many people have become very ill because of them.. The only connetion chemtrails have with the internet, is that the internet is the best way to get the word out that, for whatever reason, the US Air Force is spraying the population with chemtrail toxins.

"Everything I've seen can be explained by contrails. The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Seriously. So far though all that has happened is people proming it, collecting money and then never delivering. That is fraud. Many of the same people have produced deliberately faked pictures and videos. Why would I want to be associated with frauds and liars?"

Contrails don't do what chemtrails do .. So I guess your would view won't even allow you to see them, or if you do see them, you want to believe they are just normal contrails .. Sorry, but the evidence is overwhelming that not only do chemtrails exist, but that the toxins they spray are making people ill all over the world.

Of course there are some faked videos and fraud involved with the subject of chemtrails .. It's called DISINFORMATION.. All conspiracies and cover ups, whether they be JFK, Apollo, 911 etc., are riddled with all kinds of disinformation.. Unfortunately that's just the way it is.

*edited for typos

Edited October 12, 2010 by Duane Daman

[Jack White]

.

[Jack White]

Jack still believes in an explosion in Building 6. Twice on this forum video evidence has been posted showing that his still which he thinks shows an explosion is in fact a dust cloud from a collapse.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5594&st=855

There is no proof, nor evidence of such an explosion. That IS a fantasy.

...

In the graphic below, I state that Building 6 was "white". This is not correct.

It was silver/gray ALUMINUM. Note that it has been blackened by fire and

explosion, even though both towers are still standing.

Jack

Edited October 12, 2010 by Jack White

[Jack White]

.

[Matthew Lewis]

"I didn't ever say anything about the source being anonymous. It is still a coincidence that the murder was the next day. There is no proven connection. Does it look suspicious? Sure. Is it related to "chemtrails"? No."

You think the scientist and his wife being brutally murdered the day before revealing the fact that he was involved in working on top secrt black programs, was just a coincidence??? .. Again, it must be your particular would view that's clouding your judgement.

What I think doesn’t matter. I already said it was suspicious. Can it be proven? Would a court of law say “yep, that was definitely the reason they were murdered”?

"Jack still believes in an explosion in Building 6. Twice on this forum video evidence has been posted showing that his still which he thinks shows an explosion is in fact a dust cloud from a collapse.

http://educationforu...pic=5594&st=855

There is no proof, nor evidence of such an explosion. That IS a fantasy."

I don't know enough about that subject to make a comment, but if Jack is incorrect about one aspect of the 911 attacks, that still doesn't make all of his research "fantasies", as you would like everyone to believe.

From what I've seen his "research" is filled with ignorance, and a misunderstanding of perspective. Even though the vast majority of it has been explained or debunked he ignores all criticisms in the hopes that they'll just go away. Then he'll repost them later as if nothing ever happened. The above is just one example. It is also the last I'll say in this thread as it is off topic. It doesn't change my original point though that I don't believe exactly what the government said. Mostly though I don't care.

"Is there any conspiracy you don't believe in?"

Is there any typical insult you don't use while pretending to debunk every word I post here?

How is that an insult? It is a valid question.

"Again, you are ignoring CONTEXT."

The CONTEXT is they were brutally murdered to assure their silence... What more CONTEXT do you need?

How about what I’ve already mentioned multiple times. How many microbiologist, virologists, etc. are there in the world? What is the normal death rate of these people? Is the amount dead greater or lower than normal? If somebody says that x number of people in a particular field were killed, but neglects to mention that the time period in question covered 20 years and because of that the overall rate is lower than normal, that is context that is needed to say if the deaths are significant or not.

"No obsession here. Just trying to get YOU to own up to YOUR mistakes. I have no problem with you believing that there are people working to suppress whatever truth you believe in. The problem is YOU are accusing those on this forum of covering something up simply because YOU didn't copy links correctly."

I already said it was my fault for not checking ALL of those links.. Did you perhaps miss that? .. There most definately are people working hard to suppress the truth of chemtrails, along with many other conspiracies.. but my believing in certain conspiracies has nothing to do with that.

Nice try at slinging even more insults, but I NEVER accused anyone on this forum of having anything to do with the broken links that I posted here.. Your obsession with a few broken links has now become absurd.

You had a problem posting on this forum and when the broken links were mentioned you said “it only proves how hard some people are working to suppress the truth of chemtrails”. How should one assume you weren't implying it happened on this forum caused by forum members here? It is a logical assumption based on what you posted. How is that an insult?

"I have seen no proof of low altitude spraying. I've seen plenty of pics and videos posted by many people on many forums claiming low altitude spraying but in none of them do they actually prove it. They all appear to be among cirrus clouds which are a high altitude phenomenon."

If you haven't seen any proof of low altitude spraying then you haven't looked up at the sky recently, because it's taking place everywhere... The videos taken by people have also proven the low altitude spraying is taking place.. You should watch some of the videos that prove this is happening, instead of refusing to admit the truth.

Everywhere? There are not contrails, persistent or not, nor “chemtrails” at any altitude in my location. Due to the multiple military airspaces around Panama City, most commercial traffic is routed around here. If there really was some program so spray everybody, why not here? Military traffic is allowed all the time (consists mostly of fighter traffic) but most often avoids contrail formation altitudes (they can be predicted) because a contrail of any length can be visually acquired at a much greater distance than the airplane itself. Commercial traffic is NOT prohibited, just usually routed around whether the airspaces are active or not as a matter of habit. Result: no contrails or “chemtrails”. Most days are clear.

Please post a video you say proves low altitude spraying. Again, EVERY one I’ve seen they either have no way of judging altitude or are clearly higher than they say they are.

"Just waiting a few days does NOT rule out local contamination. Thinking such is absurd. Not all have "conducted their experiments a few days after seeing chemtrail planes spraying overhead". Many take their samples while the trails are in the air. Many, including yourself claim ill effects while trails are still in the air. If you accept that particulates would take at least a few days to reach the ground then you should also realize that they wold not fall directly below where the trail was. They would be hundreds of miles away and dissipated to such minute concentration to be virtually undetectable."

Nice try, but the toxic samples collected on the ground are directly related to the toxins that have been sprayed from the chemtrail planes above, regardless of how long the contamination took to reach the ground.. This is also a fact, whether you choose to beleive it or not.

I never said they couldn’t be but unless you collect from directly within a trail, a sample collected on the ground is not only possible to be contaminated by local sources but likely. There is never any control nor effort to rule out local contamination sources.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Matthew Lewis]

" "Chemtrails" are an internet myth perpetuated by ignorance and outright lies."

That has to be the most absurd accusation you've made so far .. Chemtrails are a frightening reality .. They are not only being observed and video taped by people all over the world, but finally some scientists are taking them seriously enough to conduct tests of the toxons involved, and also the ill effects these toxins are havng on people all over the world.. Just because the internet is used to expose this top secret program doesn't make it an "internet myth", or a "lie" .. The people who have become ill from the chemtrails have no reason to lie, nor do the people conducting studies on the toxic samples, nor do the people who are working so hard to get this evidence and information out to the general public.. The only people who have reason to lie are the ones trying to suppress the truth of the chemtrail operations.. So why do you choose to believe their lies, instead of the truth that chemtrails are real?

People may have become ill but they have not proven it is from “chemtrails” At best they have coincidence and confirmation bias. Everything videotaped looks just like contrails. All samples have been collected on the ground. There is no proof that they came from a trail in the sky.

"Not according to news reports from WWII and the decades following. See post 105 and/or www.contrailscience.com for details."

It doesn't matter if SOME contrails persist, because chemtrails are NOT the same thing contrails.. Contrails usually take place at much higher altitudes, like around 30,000 feet .. Chemtrails are being seen and recorded at much lower altitudes.. People have also observed the chemtrails planes that turn around to spray the same area.. There would be no reason for a normal flight, displaying contrails, to turn around to create loops, x's, patterns that resemble letters, or grids that look like a tic tac toe grid .. These are CHEMTRAIL jets making these patterns in the sky .. They are NOT normal contrails.

I have yet to see a video showing a plane turning around to “spray” the same area. I’ve seen people claim it but they never follow the plane for the whole time. They fail at proving it is the same plane. Do you have an adequate example?

Still, loops or circles can be created by jets in a holding pattern or military planes (command and control or tankers) flying orbits for training. X’s, letter patterns, and grids can be explained by normal everyday traffic. Should flight paths never cross? How would people get anywhere if they didn’t?

"Only one I saw on there was sprayed by jets. Release does not equal spraying. Again, I guarantee if sprayed they did it from less than 1,000 feet. You can't aim at all otherwise. Some others did not mention the method of delivery."

It doesn't matter that only one was sprayed by jets .. What matters is the PROOF that the US military was spraying ( among other methods) the American population with bio weapon toxins during the 1940's, 50's and 60's, are are still spraying them today in the form of CHEMTRAILS.. Most of which are delivered by US Air Force tanker jets.

Just because something was sprayed before doesn’t mean it happens now. You (or anybody really) has at some point in their life told a lie (likely many). Does that mean you always tell lies? Does that mean you are telling lies right now? Of course not.

Please post proof that US Air Force tankers are spraying anything. Especially as the majority of pics and videos show commercial aircraft, or types that the Air Force does not have. How do you propose that the Air Force with its limited and aging fleet of tankers does all this spraying? At any given time more than 1/3 of the tankers in the inventory are deployed delivering fuel in theater supporting the wars. Another 1/3 are down for maintenance. That leaves at most 1/3 (likely less) that still need to accomplish training in the states (unless you think the first time a pilot should do an aerial refuel is in a wartime situation).

"I have posted proof that contrails have persisted, spread, and formed a cloud layer in many decades before the 90's. The reason it "became widespread" is due to an increase in jet traffic, a redesign of jet engines to cut noise and save fuel, and higher jet traffic due to increased traffic and more efficient engines. People don't KNOW that spraying is taking place. They THINK it is because somebody on the internet said so, said that it never used to happen, and says that contrails can't persist. At least two of those are lies. I've posted proof of that and you've agreed."

You think the way to "save fuel" is to CIRCLE BACK REPEATEDLY TO MAKE LOOPS, X'S, LETTERS, AND GRID PATTERNS OVER CERTAIN AREAS??? ..

Not what I said, don’t put words in my mouth.

People don't think chemtrails are taking place.. They KNOW they are taking place .. They also KNOW that many people have become very ill because of them.. The only connetion chemtrails have with the internet, is that the internet is the best way to get the word out that, for whatever reason, the US Air Force is spraying the population with chemtrail toxins.

They see something that looks exactly like a contrail and they find on the Internet that they should be afraid of it. I don’t doubt people are becoming ill but I have yet to see any definitive proof (something that would hold up in court, not something designed to sway the average Internet surfer) that it was caused by something sprayed in the sky.

"Everything I've seen can be explained by contrails. The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Seriously. So far though all that has happened is people proming it, collecting money and then never delivering. That is fraud. Many of the same people have produced deliberately faked pictures and videos. Why would I want to be associated with frauds and liars?"

Contrails don't do what chemtrails do .. So I guess your would view won't even allow you to see them, or if you do see them, you want to believe they are just normal contrails .. Sorry, but the evidence is overwhelming that not only do chemtrails exist, but that the toxins they spray are making people ill all over the world.

Of course there are some faked videos and fruad involved with the subject of chemtrails .. It's called DISINFORMATION.. All conspiracies and cover ups, whether they be JFK, Apollo, 911 etc., are riddled with all kinds of disinformation.. Unfortunately that's just the way it is.

Everything I’ve seen described as a “chemtrail” can be explained with the long known science of contrails. It has nothing to do with a world view.

So deliberate fakes perpetrated by well known “chemtrail” proponents are disinformation? Even if you claim that somebody else did the fake and they just fell for it, why would they continue to push it after the fake was proven?

Look for a picture of a crop spraying aircraft. The spray comes out thick right by the nozzle and quickly spreads out and disappears. Contrails or "chemtrails" are the opposite. They often form many feet behind the nozzle and grow as they condense and pull moisture from the air. If “chemtrails” are a spray, how come they look different from every other sprayed chemical and exactly like contrails? If they look exactly like contrails, how is one supposed to identify them?

Again, as I’ve mentioned before and bolded within the quote above, The single best evidence "chemtrail" proponents could get would be a sample directly from a trail. If that ever happens I would be one of the biggest supporters. Let me know if they ever get around to it.

[Matthew Lewis]

.

(For those who can't see the pic because you are not a member or in a few weeks after Jack has removed it, it shows some crossing contrails at sunset with some accompanying cirrus clouds. Quite pretty actually. I may make it my desktop.)

To Jack:

Nice pic of contrails at sunset Jack. I especially like how you can see cirrus clouds accompanying the trails showing that the conditions were right for contrail formation. Thanks for helping to illustrate my point!

Edited October 12, 2010 by Matthew Lewis

[Matthew Lewis]

.

(For those who can't see the picture because you are not a member or in a few weeks after Jack has removed it, it shows some oval contrail paths again with accompnaying cirrus clouds, likely from a command and control aircraft flying an orbit. It could also be from an aircraft in a holding pattern. )

To Jack:

And? See what I said above about holding patterns and training orbits. This is exactly what that would look like. It does NOT however look like a systematic plane to "spray" or cover and area. Coverage would be spotty. There are some thicker areas with overlaps and others where there was no lasting persistence at all. A child could design a better pattern to evenly cover an area. An adult would be fired if that was the plan. It is also possible, though unlikely, that the trails could have been created by multiple aircraft. Since it is a photograph taken after the fact and nobody bothered to video it while happening it is impossible to say for sure. I do notice that it shows some regular cirrus clouds with the trails though showing that the conditions were right for contrail formation. Thanks again for illustrating my point!