The Assassin's Great Escape

[William Kelly]

In another thread that went unnoticed, Terry Priest asked an important question:

Somebody who has actually seen the building might be able to give some insight. is there just one staircase?

The guys that were on the 5th floor, that heard in a deafening way 3 shots, and heard the shellcasings hit the floor, because the sub-floor was all there was, and there were cracks in it, i think all that is from posner, did they hot foot it down the stairs, or did they hide because they knew the assassin was coming down the stairs? did anybody ask them how tempted were you to see who was coming down the stairs?

if you are going to shoot the president from the sixth floor, with no accomplices, you got to assume you are not getting down those stairs. i think oswald would have been a nervous wreck all morning and somebody should have noticed it. it was no plan at all. the witness across the street said the shooter stopped, seemed calm, didnt seem in a hurry.

100 employees? the best vantage point would be the building, a lot of folks watching from windows, according to the witness. it would seem everybody in the building would hear the shots, everybody would know somebody was coming down the stairs.

In answer to your question Terry, there were two stairs, one in the very front of the building, a large and elegant one that only went to the second floor, and one in the rear, a small one that went up to the seventh floor.

Though Gary Mack can correct me if I am wrong.

In addition, there were three elevators, one in the front for office personell that only went to the fourth floor, and two in the rear, for workers that went the distance.

For some reason, there doesn't seem to be any photos of the rear elevators at all. At least I've never seen them and can't seem to find any.

Can anyone come up with any photos of any of the elevators?

As for the Oswald being the Sixth Floor Sniper, you are accurate in that Oswald's behavior and activities and the few words he spoke to other employees seems to indicate that he didn't have a clue as to when the motorcade was coming, or that it was coming by at all, or even cared.

Unlike the Walker shooting, in which he staked out the scene weeks in advance, took photos of the place and the surrounding areas, had accomplaces, and kept a notebook of details that he later tore up, burned in his bathroom and flushed down the toilet, there doesn't seem to have been any planning or notes or anything at all leading up to the JFK assassination, even though Henry Wade made the remark that it appeared to him that the assassination was well planned out in advance and that Oswald even planned how he would act under interrogation.

While it appears to me that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, he does not appear to be in a hurry, and both witnesses (Eunis, Brennan) say he stood back after his last shot and didn't immediately bolt. In addition, if it wasn't the Sniper, someone stuck around and moved boxes around (per Dillard/Powell photos and Brennan & Moneyham statements) some three to four minutes after the last shot, which in the timetable of what was happening, is a long time.

I believe that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was, even if it was Oswald, they knew that there was no hurry, even though there were three policeman right outisde the window, sixty feet below, and Brennan and Eunis calling attention, or trying to call attention to the TSBD and Sixth Floor while everyone else's attention was being drawn to the Knoll. Brennan had the front door covered for the whole time he was there after the assassination and called attention to the fifth floor guys as they came out the door.

Although DVP in his Timeline of events, has Oswald leaving the building within five minutes (while Moneyham was eyeballing a man in the Sixth Floor window at the same time), and the building being sealed within a few minutes of that, the building was not sealed when SS SAIC Sorrels arrived from Parkland at approximately 12:45-50 and found a black guy at the back door of the TSBD and no police around whatsoever. I don't know how Army Intel Agent Powell got stuck in side, but it appears that anybody could come and go as they pleased for at least a half hour after the last shots.

The Dallas PD/Sheriff's tape and transcipt of radio broadcasts say that the TSBD was sealed and covered about 1 pm, shortly before the Sniper's Lair was discovered.

It is my contention that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was and/or the guy there at 12:34-5 moving boxes around, they were quite confident that they were going to get away.

How did they know that? Why were they so confident?

Did they work there, as Oswald did? Or was he a cop who just waited for the other cops to get there and just joined them in searching for the rifle?

Or did the Sniper, whether it was Oswald or someone else - did they walk or run down the stairs?

Or did, as some have suspected, the Sixth Floor Sniper accompany Dougherty down in one of the back elevators?

Or are there any other possibilities?

As far as I can tell there are a limited number of ways to go from the Sixth Floor of TSBD to the first.

There are the two rear elevators, that were stationary on the fifth floor until Dougherty brought one down to the first.

Then there are the back stairs, that the official scenario has Oswald, being the Sixth Floor Sniper, uses to get to the second floor. Except that he doesn't encounter Doughtery, who was between the sixth and fifth floors, or the two secretaries who descended the stairs from the fourth floor to the first, or the black guys who went from the fifth floor window below the Sixth Floor Sniper's nest and moved to the west side of the building before descending the stairs. Now these stairs are not like the one in the front, with the winding staircase with rails. The back stairs are small and rickety, and only wide enough for one person.

Once on the second floor, according to the officail scenario, Oswald enters the lunchroom vestibule just as Baker sees him in the door window. If this is true, then how come Roy Truly, who was a few steps ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald enter the door as he should have?

In addition, according to Baker's same day statement, he says he encountered the employee on the fourth floor. Was that suppose to be the Oswald encounter, or is that an encounter with another TSBD employee?

Then there is the Dallas sheriff's officers, some in plain clothes, including the deputy who "discovered" the Sniper's Nest, who said they passed ANOTHER law enforcement officer Descending the steps while they were going up. If so, who was that?

As far as I can ascertain, there were a limited number of ways that anyone could get from the Sixth to the First floor.

Accoding to the official scenario, Oswald descended the back steps from the sixth to second floor, encountered Baker and Truly in the lunchroom, got a coke and then left via the south door of the vestibule. He walked through the office area where he encountered a secretary who exchanged words with him and noticed he had a coke in his hand. He walked to the front of the building and descended the steps and went out the front door unnoticed by Brennan, who swore that he could have identified the Sixth Floor Sniper if he saw him again, but didn't recognize Oswald leave the building as he did recognize the guys from the fifth floor window and had them stopped and questioned.

I'd also like to know what happened to the coke bottle that Oswald had in his hand on the second floor, that disapears before he leaves the building but is not put into evidence? And what became of the Dr. Pepper bottle found next to the Sniper's Lair, that was dusted for fingerprints and should have been put into evidence?

Besides just taking the elevators in the rear, or walking/running down the rear steps, it is possible to go from the Sixth to the Fourth floor, and pass the offices to the front elevator and descend that elevator to the first floor.

There is also a fire escape that no one saw anyone come down on the outside of the building.

And as "Tex"- the ex-service man from New Orleans who visited LA in the fall of 1962, claimed to be able to do, it is possible to rappell down the elevator shaft, as the quickest way down, at least to win a bar room bet, as "Tex" did.

In any case, the TSBD was never properly sealed by DPD for at least a half hour, except when Powell wanted to leave.

And both Oswald and the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, just waltzed out of there with no problem, and knew from the get-go that they could do that.

Did I miss any possible escape scenarios?

Again, I'd like to see some photos, a photo of the TSBD elevators, if there is one.

Bill Kelly

Edited August 23, 2010 by William Kelly

[Terry Priest]

Bill

thanks for acknowledging the question.

how do you get away? i have read a little on the trotsky assassination and in hindsight, everyone who knew the assassin said he was a nervous wreck, because he had to go into the walled compound, he could imagine being able to kill, but he could not figure a way out. this was a trained assassin. and thats what happened. he tried to kill him silently, but trotsky screamed. it seems to me a lone gunman shooting from the sixth floor in a building where nearly every window is occupied, he can have no expectation of getting down those stairs without at least meeting somebody who has heard the shots from above.

Brennan says, http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/The_deed/Brennan/Brennan_book.html

"Directly across the street from where I sat was the Texas School Book Depository Building. By now it seemed that every window in the place was open with one or more people peering out."

then he says but mostly on the lower floors, just those few people on the fifth floor, and just the one on the sixth. my question, all those people heard the shots, the windows are open, are the acoustics that strange they could not tell they came from an upper floor? did nobody think somebody was coming down the stairs? Supposedly the guys on the fifth floor could hear the casings hit the floor. all they got to do is peek in the stairway(s). did they even mention to anybody there is somebody on the sixth floor with a gun?

[Bernice Moore]

In another thread that went unnoticed, Terry Priest asked an important question:

Somebody who has actually seen the building might be able to give some insight. is there just one staircase?

The guys that were on the 5th floor, that heard in a deafening way 3 shots, and heard the shellcasings hit the floor, because the sub-floor was all there was, and there were cracks in it, i think all that is from posner, did they hot foot it down the stairs, or did they hide because they knew the assassin was coming down the stairs? did anybody ask them how tempted were you to see who was coming down the stairs?

if you are going to shoot the president from the sixth floor, with no accomplices, you got to assume you are not getting down those stairs. i think oswald would have been a nervous wreck all morning and somebody should have noticed it. it was no plan at all. the witness across the street said the shooter stopped, seemed calm, didnt seem in a hurry.

100 employees? the best vantage point would be the building, a lot of folks watching from windows, according to the witness. it would seem everybody in the building would hear the shots, everybody would know somebody was coming down the stairs.

In answer to your question Terry, there were two stairs, one in the very front of the building, a large and elegant one that only went to the second floor, and one in the rear, a small one that went up to the seventh floor.

Though Gary Mack can correct me if I am wrong.

In addition, there were three elevators, one in the front for office personell that only went to the fourth floor, and two in the rear, for workers that went the distance.

For some reason, there doesn't seem to be any photos of the rear elevators at all. At least I've never seen them and can't seem to find any.

Can anyone come up with any photos of any of the elevators?

As for the Oswald being the Sixth Floor Sniper, you are accurate in that Oswald's behavior and activities and the few words he spoke to other employees seems to indicate that he didn't have a clue as to when the motorcade was coming, or that it was coming by at all, or even cared.

Unlike the Walker shooting, in which he staked out the scene weeks in advance, took photos of the place and the surrounding areas, had accomplaces, and kept a notebook of details that he later tore up, burned in his bathroom and flushed down the toilet, there doesn't seem to have been any planning or notes or anything at all leading up to the JFK assassination, even though Henry Wade made the remark that it appeared to him that the assassination was well planned out in advance and that Oswald even planned how he would act under interrogation.

While it appears to me that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, he does not appear to be in a hurry, and both witnesses (Eunis, Brennan) say he stood back after his last shot and didn't immediately bolt. In addition, if it wasn't the Sniper, someone stuck around and moved boxes around (per Dillard/Powell photos and Brennan & Moneyham statements) some three to four minutes after the last shot, which in the timetable of what was happening, is a long time.

I believe that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was, even if it was Oswald, they knew that there was no hurry, even though there were three policeman right outisde the window, sixty feet below, and Brennan and Eunis calling attention, or trying to call attention to the TSBD and Sixth Floor while everyone else's attention was being drawn to the Knoll. Brennan had the front door covered for the whole time he was there after the assassination and called attention to the fifth floor guys as they came out the door.

Although DVP in his Timeline of events, has Oswald leaving the building within five minutes (while Moneyham was eyeballing a man in the Sixth Floor window at the same time), and the building being sealed within a few minutes of that, the building was not sealed when SS SAIC Sorrels arrived from Parkland at approximately 12:45-50 and found a black guy at the back door of the TSBD and no police around whatsoever. I don't know how Army Intel Agent Powell got stuck in side, but it appears that anybody could come and go as they pleased for at least a half hour after the last shots.

The Dallas PD/Sheriff's tape and transcipt of radio broadcasts say that the TSBD was sealed and covered about 1 pm, shortly before the Sniper's Lair was discovered.

It is my contention that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was and/or the guy there at 12:34-5 moving boxes around, they were quite confident that they were going to get away.

How did they know that? Why were they so confident?

Did they work there, as Oswald did? Or was he a cop who just waited for the other cops to get there and just joined them in searching for the rifle?

Or did the Sniper, whether it was Oswald or someone else - did they walk or run down the stairs?

Or did, as some have suspected, the Sixth Floor Sniper accompany Dougherty down in one of the back elevators?

Or are there any other possibilities?

As far as I can tell there are a limited number of ways to go from the Sixth Floor of TSBD to the first.

There are the two rear elevators, that were stationary on the fifth floor until Dougherty brought one down to the first.

Then there are the back stairs, that the official scenario has Oswald, being the Sixth Floor Sniper, uses to get to the second floor. Except that he doesn't encounter Doughtery, who was between the sixth and fifth floors, or the two secretaries who descended the stairs from the fourth floor to the first, or the black guys who went from the fifth floor window below the Sixth Floor Sniper's nest and moved to the west side of the building before descending the stairs. Now these stairs are not like the one in the front, with the winding staircase with rails. The back stairs are small and rickety, and only wide enough for one person.

Once on the second floor, according to the officail scenario, Oswald enters the lunchroom vestibule just as Baker sees him in the door window. If this is true, then how come Roy Truly, who was a few steps ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald enter the door as he should have?

In addition, according to Baker's same day statement, he says he encountered the employee on the fourth floor. Was that suppose to be the Oswald encounter, or is that an encounter with another TSBD employee?

Then there is the Dallas sheriff's officers, some in plain clothes, including the deputy who "discovered" the Sniper's Nest, who said they passed ANOTHER law enforcement officer Descending the steps while they were going up. If so, who was that?

As far as I can ascertain, there were a limited number of ways that anyone could get from the Sixth to the First floor.

Accoding to the official scenario, Oswald descended the back steps from the sixth to second floor, encountered Baker and Truly in the lunchroom, got a coke and then left via the south door of the vestibule. He walked through the office area where he encountered a secretary who exchanged words with him and noticed he had a coke in his hand. He walked to the front of the building and descended the steps and went out the front door unnoticed by Brennan, who swore that he could have identified the Sixth Floor Sniper if he saw him again, but didn't recognize Oswald leave the building as he did recognize the guys from the fifth floor window and had them stopped and questioned.

I'd also like to know what happened to the coke bottle that Oswald had in his hand on the second floor, that disapears before he leaves the building but is not put into evidence? And what became of the Dr. Pepper bottle found next to the Sniper's Lair, that was dusted for fingerprints and should have been put into evidence?

Besides just taking the elevators in the rear, or walking/running down the rear steps, it is possible to go from the Sixth to the Fourth floor, and pass the offices to the front elevator and descend that elevator to the first floor.

There is also a fire escape that no one saw anyone come down on the outside of the building.

And as "Tex"- the ex-service man from New Orleans who visited LA in the fall of 1962, claimed to be able to do, it is possible to rappell down the elevator shaft, as the quickest way down, at least to win a bar room bet, as "Tex" did.

In any case, the TSBD was never properly sealed by DPD for at least a half hour, except when Powell wanted to leave.

And both Oswald and the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, just waltzed out of there with no problem, and knew from the get-go that they could do that.

Did I miss any possible escape scenarios?

Again, I'd like to see some photos, a photo of the TSBD elevators, if there is one.

Bill Kelly

BILL I DO NOT HAVE ANY PHOTOS OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR, ONLY THE FREIGHT ELEVATORS, IF OF ANY USE..??SOME INFO BELOW...

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/08-Parks-36-items/first.reports

Jack C. Cason, president of the depository, said the sixth floor was

used solely as a "dead storage" area. It was stacked about eight feet

high with books. Cason, who left the scene about 30 minutes

before the president's caravan rode down Main Street, said the firm

often had difficulty finding employees who had fallen asleep amidst

the stacks of books. "Sometimes it will be three or four days

without anybody going up to the sixth floor to get anything," Cason

said. He said the "dead storage" area was used to keep books

already stocked in the basement and on the second and fourth

floors. Only when they ran out of copies there does anybody

generally go to the sixth floor. Cason said the killer was apparently

"well aware" of the building's layout because there was no elevator

that goes up to the sixth floor from the front entrance. He would

have had to get off the elevator on the fourth floor, walk to the

back of the building and get the stairs or one of the two freight

elevators on the sixth.

[Bernice Moore]

BILL SOME PHOTOS ELEVATORS ETC...IF OF ANY USE, SOMEONE MAY HAVE A PHOTO OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR...B

[Bernice Moore]

ONE OF THE REAR ELEVATOR OUTSIDE SHAFT.STAIRWELL AREA....B

[William Kelly]

Thanks for those pix B.

Especially the elevator.

Is that two of the same photos or two different photos?

Are they the same elevator or one of each. They look the same to me.

Why are there no photos of the two elevators together?

They are right next to each other, right?

BK

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks for those pix B.

Especially the elevator.

Is that two of the same photos or two different photos?

Are they the same elevator or one of each. They look the same to me.

Why are there no photos of the two elevators together?

They are right next to each other, right?

BK

I BELIEVE THEY AREOF THE SAME ELEVATOR BILL..THESE WERE FOUND AT THE MF SITE, AND IF I RECALL ALL THERE WERE,I AM NOT SURE IF THEY ARE NEXT TO EACH OTHER, I WILL HAVE ANOTHER SNOOP AROUND. ..B

[Jack White]

ONE OF THE REAR ELEVATOR OUTSIDE SHAFT.STAIRWELL AREA....B

That outside elevator did not exist in 1963. It was built to haul visitors to the 6FM.

Jack

[Martin Hinrichs]

Thanks for those pix B.

Especially the elevator.

Is that two of the same photos or two different photos?

Are they the same elevator or one of each. They look the same to me.

Why are there no photos of the two elevators together?

They are right next to each other, right?

BK

Bill i've never seen a photo of both freight Elevators together nor the passenger elevator.

Anyway, here you go:

best

Martin

[Bernice Moore]

thanks jack and martin, can you post your photos any larger martin, please..??

bill here is one of the customer elevator inside the lobby or so it said...fwiw...b

[Bernice Moore]

Bill; this one says freight elevator, now changed to a customer elevator..??

[John Dolva]

If the will was there the TSBD building may yet hold evidence that can be found by various excavations, testing accumulated detritus in shafts, between long covered floor boards, in overpainted mortar, sonic imaging of the basement, mapping the sub-dock etc. iow a modern archaeological forensic dig.

[Jim Feemster]

Hi Bill,

Learn something almost every time I log on to this site.

You said it could be that someone maybe was dressed as a policeman to facilitate his escape from the sixth floor after bullets stopped flying.

A perfect canidate for this senerio might be the guy who can be seen through the west window wearing a white t-shirt with the light above his head standing away from the window. Donning police hat and uniform police shirt and hiding his Mauser he now is an early searcher instead of a suspect.

One question please? Why would anyone want or need to rearange the book cartons in the sniper's nest? To what avail?

jim

[Martin Hinrichs]

thanks jack and martin, can you post your photos any larger martin, please..??

Of course Bernice.

In the first attachement you find the already posted composition larger.

You can see here in first place a diagram of the first floor.

As you can see, i've given the numbers 1-7. That means, i found the photographers locations

inside the first floor with a roughly direction (arrow).

In the second attachement you see the photographs 1-7 which i have labeled in the diagram.

I think this can help to understand the geometry of the first floor of the TSBD.

You know, some people don't know where the coffee place was.

It also helps (maybe) to navigate through the first floor and see the pathes where Marrion Baker

and Roy Truly were rushing through.

best to you

Martin

[William Kelly]

Hi Bill,

Learn something almost every time I log on to this site.

You said it could be that someone maybe was dressed as a policeman to facilitate his escape from the sixth floor after bullets stopped flying.

A perfect canidate for this senerio might be the guy who can be seen through the west window wearing a white t-shirt with the light above his head standing away from the window. Donning police hat and uniform police shirt and hiding his Mauser he now is an early searcher instead of a suspect.

One question please? Why would anyone want or need to rearange the book cartons in the sniper's nest? To what avail?

jim

Thanks to Bernice and Martin for those photos and diagrams, as they help explain a lot.

Also note there are FOUR doors in the rear - two in the back by the loading dock and two side doors to the north side.

Can anyone read what it says next to the two north side doors?

Did the guy who ran down the embankment and get into the Rambler Station wagon exit through one of these doors?

As for your question Jim, I don't know why anyone would want or need to rearrange the book carton's in the sniper's nest. This was done within minutes of the last shot, so if it wasn't done by the shooter himself, it was done by an acomplice. Some of the boxes that we know were moved are the ones visible in the Powell/Dillard photos and seen by Brennen, who when shown photos said that the boxes were in a different position from when he saw the shooter in the window.

Can someone come up with a good reason to move the boxes around?

BK

Edited August 25, 2010 by William Kelly