Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Having just stumbled over this thread, I want to side with Jim on this. I think he has nailed it. Surely we all know by now

that Waggoner Carr launched his own investigation after the assassination and discovered that Oswald was working as an

informant for the FBI, that he had informant number 179 and that he was being paid $200 per month right up to the time

of the assassination. No one can have established his income with any precision, since Marina has refused to allow his

W-2 forms to be released to the public, which would confirm it. Anyone who has studied his conduct in New Orleans must

know that he was consorting with Guy Banister, David Ferrie, and others, while he was posing as a pro-Castro, communist

sympathizer, where, in retrospect, the agency appears to have been "setting him up" to take the fall for JFK. Those who

read ME & LEE will find more and more indications of his involvement with the government as an undercover op. No doubt,

some of these points are made elsewhere in this thread, but Jim is right: How can there be any doubt at this very late date

that Oswald appears to have been recruited by ONI, made a pseudo-defection to the Soviet Union on behalf of the CIA, was

greeted warmly and given funds to relocate upon his return to the US by a CIA-front organization, and thereafter served

as an informant for the FBI? He thereby outdid his own idol, Herbert Philbrick, by leading even more than "three lives".

The above discussion is unbelievable in this day and age. And it shows how Mr. Carroll has not gotten over his old tricks.

Its actually a surprising exchange since other people who should know better are actually entertaining this absurdity.

The idea that somehow Oswald was not some kind of espionage agent is today, beyond the pale to contemplate. That is with the work of John Newman, John Armstrong and Philip Melanson, to me there should be no argument.

And for Carroll to seriously use the work of two thoroughly compromised and discredited authors in the field--Mailer and Liebeler--well this shows us that he is still in league with those who were best pals with the likes of Mark Zaid back in the nineties.

If Oswald was not an espionage agent, then please explain to me why Otto Otepka was put through the ordeal he was when he tried to find out if he was a genuine or fake defector? Why was his office bugged, his trash gone through,his car followed, speeches made against him in Congress? All this over a guy who had been a fine employee for years. He is then removed from his job THREE WEEKS before the assassination! Coincidence? Phooey.

If Oswald was not an espionage agent, then why was he trying to call (former?) military intelligence officer John Hurt from the Dallas jail on Saturday night? Maybe because the giant Nags Head navy base was nearby? The place that according to VIctor Marchetti housed the fake Navy defector program? Why was this call not allowed to go through? Why was it then covered up? Try and find it mentioned in the Warren Commission. I have an idea as to why. It has to do with what happened the next morning--Ruby's murder of Oswald. As Marchetti said, that call sealed the intelligence operative's fate.

If Oswald was not an intelligence operative, how the heck do you explain the stuff he was up to in New Orleans? Was it just a coincidence that at the time he is making the FPCC look foolish by leafleting on main streets in New Orleans at rush hour, that both the FBI and CIA have such a program in operation? And that Davdid Phillips is one of the managers of it? And that the group he would end up in violent street conflict with--the DRE--was beign run by Phillips? (According to Howard Hunt at least.)

What is the payoff of the New Orleans charade? The Butler interview. Where Oswald slipped up and admitted he was sponsored by the State Department in Russia.

And the End Game of all this FPCC playing around is Mexico CIty. Where Oswald's image and voice will be manipulated by Anne Goodpasture into makign it seem as if he is in cahoots with Valery Kostikov, KGB assassination agent. And I supposed that its another coincidence that the lying Goodasture was Phillips' right arm in Mexico City.

Mr Carroll must really miss his cohort Dennis Ford these days. In this preposterous discussion of Oswald's identity and role in the plot, he sounds more and more like the guy the late Gene Case threw out of his house with the words: "I don't know what your goal is, but it sure is not ours."

Edited October 26, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[William Kelly]

Having just stumbled over this thread, I want to side with Jim on this. I think he has nailed it. Surely we all know by now

that Waggoner Carr launched his own investigation after the assassination and discovered that Oswald was working as an

informant for the FBI, that he had informant number 179 and that he was being paid $200 per month right up to the time

of the assassination.

Wait a minute. This has also been investigated thoroughly and it has been determined that the idea that Oswald was

an FBI informant was a story planted in the news media by Hugh Aynsworth and Joe Gouldon, both certified

Disinformation Agents and/or Assets along with Lonnie Hudgkins(sp?), a trail ballon that flew or didn't fly, depending

on your perspective. Aynesworth's application to join the CIA, which like Priscilla Johnson McMillan, was rejected,

though they both maintained contact with the agency and had case officers. Gouldon was a close personal friend

of David Atlee Phillips, and today, writes regularly for the newsletter and magazine put out by the Association of Former

Intelligence Offiers that DAP founded. The number and the pay were both BS they made up out of thin air, and acknowleged so by the "reporters"

Aynesworth and Gouldon. Not that Oswald wasn't an informant, or agent provokateur for some agency, it just wasn't the FBI,

for whom Oswald held in personel contempt. - BK

No one can have established his income with any precision, since Marina has refused to allow his

W-2 forms to be released to the public, which would confirm it. Anyone who has studied his conduct in New Orleans must

know that he was consorting with Guy Banister, David Ferrie, and others, while he was posing as a pro-Castro, communist

sympathizer, where, in retrospect, the agency appears to have been "setting him up" to take the fall for JFK. Those who

read ME & LEE will find more and more indications of his involvement with the government as an undercover op. No doubt,

some of these points are made elsewhere in this thread, but Jim is right: How can there be any doubt at this very late date

that Oswald appears to have been recruited by ONI, made a pseudo-defection to the Soviet Union on behalf of the CIA, was

greeted warmly and given funds to relocate upon his return to the US by a CIA-front organization, and thereafter served

as an informant for the FBI? He thereby outdid his own idol, Herbert Philbrick, by leading even more than "three lives".

The above discussion is unbelievable in this day and age. And it shows how Mr. Carroll has not gotten over his old tricks.

Its actually a surprising exchange since other people who should know better are actually entertaining this absurdity.

The idea that somehow Oswald was not some kind of espionage agent is today, beyond the pale to contemplate. That is with the work of John Newman, John Armstrong and Philip Melanson, to me there should be no argument.

And for Carroll to seriously use the work of two thoroughly compromised and discredited authors in the field--Mailer and Liebeler--well this shows us that he is still in league with those who were best pals with the likes of Mark Zaid back in the nineties.

If Oswald was not an espionage agent, then please explain to me why Otto Otepka was put through the ordeal he was when he tried to find out if he was a genuine or fake defector? Why was his office bugged, his trash gone through,his car followed, speeches made against him in Congress? All this over a guy who had been a fine employee for years. He is then removed from his job THREE WEEKS before the assassination! Coincidence? Phooey.

If Oswald was not an espionage agent, then why was he trying to call (former?) military intelligence officer John Hurt from the Dallas jail on Saturday night? Maybe because the giant Nags Head navy base was nearby? The place that according to VIctor Marchetti housed the fake Navy defector program? Why was this call not allowed to go through? Why was it then covered up? Try and find it mentioned in the Warren Commission. I have an idea as to why. It has to do with what happened the next morning--Ruby's murder of Oswald. As Marchetti said, that call sealed the intelligence operative's fate.

If Oswald was not an intelligence operative, how the heck do you explain the stuff he was up to in New Orleans? Was it just a coincidence that at the time he is making the FPCC look foolish by leafleting on main streets in New Orleans at rush hour, that both the FBI and CIA have such a program in operation? And that Davdid Phillips is one of the managers of it? And that the group he would end up in violent street conflict with--the DRE--was beign run by Phillips? (According to Howard Hunt at least.)

What is the payoff of the New Orleans charade? The Butler interview. Where Oswald slipped up and admitted he was sponsored by the State Department in Russia.

And the End Game of all this FPCC playing around is Mexico CIty. Where Oswald's image and voice will be manipulated by Anne Goodpasture into makign it seem as if he is in cahoots with Valery Kostikov, KGB assassination agent. And I supposed that its another coincidence that the lying Goodasture was Phillips' right arm in Mexico City.

Mr Carroll must really miss his cohort Dennis Ford these days. In this preposterous discussion of Oswald's identity and role in the plot, he sounds more and more like the guy the late Gene Case threw out of his house with the words: "I don't know what your goal is, but it sure is not ours."

[Mark Knight]

I'm still trying to figure out which "giant Navy base" at Nag's Head, NC that Jim is talking about. I can't find a base AT Nags Head...there's the Naval base at Stumpy Point, NC [which, oddly enough, has no name listed on Google Maps]...and across East Lake I find Naval Air Station Chambers, listed on Google Maps as Norfolk, VA...but at Nags Head, I find nothing related to a naval base.

So which base is Jim talking about? Does this base have a name, as most do?

[Guest Tom Scully]

I'm still trying to figure out which "giant Navy base" at Nag's Head, NC that Jim is talking about. I can't find a base AT Nags Head...there's the Naval base at Stumpy Point, NC [which, oddly enough, has no name listed on Google Maps]...and across East Lake I find Naval Air Station Chambers, listed on Google Maps as Norfolk, VA...but at Nags Head, I find nothing related to a naval base.

So which base is Jim talking about? Does this base have a name, as most do?

Uhhh...it was secret.:

http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6538d9fa536fef71600d362644a6b333&topic=277.msg3925#msg3925

The following links give a detailed account of information relating to the credibility of Tosh Plumlee and creates an in-depth understanding of covert operations and what was going on before, during and after the time period he was involved with and how it fit into the JFK assassination....

Q: Tosh, did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

A: Yes, I knew Lee Harvey Oswald.

Q: Where did you first meet him?

A: I first meet Lee Harvey Oswald at a secret base called Illusionary

Warfare Training at Nagshead, North Carolina in 1959 prior to him going to

language school and going to Russia.

Q: Did you just meet him or did you get to know him?

A: I got to...well, I just met him and remembered him....At the time that I

met him in '59 he was a Marine, we were all in Illusionary Warfare Training,

or something...propaganda stuff, and he was there and he was doing language

study at that particular point. I didn't recognize him as anybody them other

than just another black operative...

Jim originally described it as,

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_2_review.html

...Because the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) operated a huge base nearby at the coastal town of Nag's Head.

What constitutes "huge" in the context of describing an ONI base, not a naval base? Who can say, since they are intended to be kept secret. The official "military" presence is a Coast Guard station at Oregon Inlet.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=nags+head,+nc&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Nags+Head,+NC&gl=us&ei=rzvHTL2NHMSblgfQzaTQAQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ8gEwAA

http://www.uscg.mil/d5/sectnorthcarolina/StaOregonInlet.asp

By the way...type Naval in the search box when you display the google map for Stumpy Point, NC, and an "approximate" location for the Naval Base will pop up.

Must be a Dept. of Fatherland Security precaution.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Linda Minor]

The Raleigh, N.C. phone call was referred to in this article by Proctor:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=48747&relPageId=6

and in this document which refers to Navy Code 30 operations but doesn't give the location.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=70399

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=40639

See also this note written by Ira David Wood III at http://www.blackopforum.info/index.php?topic=263.0

AUTHOR’S NOTE: Detailed information regarding the Raleigh telephone call was initially uncovered by Grover Proctor and Bernie Reeves and first reported in The Spectator, Raleigh, N.C.

Secret Service agent Abraham Bolden was the duty officer for the Secret Service’s Chicago office on the weekend of the assassination. He states that the Secret Service office in Dallas contacted him late on the evening of the 23rd and requested a report on any phonetic spelling of “Hurt” or “Heard.”

Gerry Patrick Hemming states that the CIA had access to “call forwarding” during the 50s and 60s - well before the general public knew of it. According to Hemming, “Call Forwarding,” at this time, was a secret service available to various intelligence agencies. It is possible, therefore, that Oswald’s Raleigh call was forwarded once it was routed through Raleigh, N.C. Hemming suggests that the call was possibly routed to either the Elizabeth City or Nags Head area of North Carolina.

The Warren Commission Report merely states that: “Between 4 and 4:30 p.m., Oswald made two telephone calls to Mrs. Ruth Paine at her home in Irving; at about 5:30 p.m. he was visited by the president of the Dallas Bar Association with whom he spoke for about 5 minutes. From 6 to 7:15 p.m. Oswald was interrogated once again in Captain Fritz’ office and then returned to his cell. At 8 p.m. he called the Paine residence again and asked to speak to his wife, but Mrs. Paine told him that his wife was no longer there.” The telephone call to Raleigh, NC is not mentioned by the Warren Commission. WC

SO - it IS possible that the call was routed to Nags Head ... but we do have a CIA base in Elizabeth City.

On a personal note, I know a lot of people on North Carolina's Outer Banks where Nags Head is located. There were, of course, cottages along the beach during the time Oswald could've received his training as a defector there - but the population was small enough so that the influx of even a dozen or so military personnel would've been noted. This, as I discovered, is the case. People I've talked to there remember around a dozen men who were sent to the Coast Guard station on the Outer Banks. The "word" was that they were recovering alcoholics involved in a program to rehabilitate them. Oswald could very well have been among them. So, Marchetti may be correct in asserting that Oswald quite probably received some of his training as a defector at or near Nags Head, North Carolina.

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/harvey/harvey-eyeball.htm

Harvey Point Defense Testing Activity

Elizabeth City, NC

The Harvey Point facility was established in World War II as an operating base for blimps conducting anti-submarine surveillance of the Atlantic coast. It is used by CIA's Directorate of Operations for personnel training in explosives, paramilitary combat, and other clandestine warfare techniques.

Specifically,

the Point is where "hardcore" paramilitary ops are worked on

. The Farm teaches basics, relative to work done at the Point, from a paramilitary perspective. A course called AET, or Applied Explosive Techniques, is just one example. US Navy SEALs are frequently trained in this course of instruction. The group called SAD, or

Special Activities Division

, which is part of DS&T teaches many of these courses as well. SAD is an office devoted to sabotage techniques and blowing things up. They run training all the time--were responsible for the mining of the harbors down south about 10 years ago. SAD also runs EOD courses for the Secret Service.

Within the CIA's Directorate of Operation the areas are broken into the following organizational structures--divisions and staffs and branches, respectively. There is a PM Branch (or paramilitary branch) and their staff is called the Special Activities Staff or SAS. The Special Activities Staff is on par with CAG (Combat Applications Group, formerly Delta) and DevGroup (Naval SpecWar Development Group, former Seal Team 6) as far as operational ability and missions profile. It is considered a special mission unit [sMU], and carried out special collection activites (LRSU ops, etc), sabotage, friendly personnel/material recovery, threat pers/material snatches, BDAs, CT osp, raids, hostage rescue and other activities as directed by the President.

The SAS is a little known group working within the DO's paramilitary structure and is divided into branches: Ground Branch (handles land-based paramilitary combat, special collection activities, sabo, LRSU ops and training of agency personnel in counter terror/counter surv techniques at Camp Peary, Harvey Point, and two other areas within CONUS). The Maritime Branch handles all waterborne activites, such as the jet ski training in the Nevada lakes during the gulf war buildup as part of a insertion/Hostage rescue op. The Air Branch is the modern day version of Air America but to the entire world. Air Branch supplies al planes, helos and related air assets to the agency. If a bigwig needs to fly from HQ to STC (STC is agency parlance for Special Training Center, or Peary) they call on Air Branch, which is in the basement of the agency. If Ground branch needs an air platform for an insertion, they call on Air Branch.

Source

[Walters, Robert, "Going Underground,"

Inquiry,

2 February 1991, pages 12-16.]

I'm still trying to figure out which "giant Navy base" at Nag's Head, NC that Jim is talking about. I can't find a base AT Nags Head...there's the Naval base at Stumpy Point, NC [which, oddly enough, has no name listed on Google Maps]...and across East Lake I find Naval Air Station Chambers, listed on Google Maps as Norfolk, VA...but at Nags Head, I find nothing related to a naval base.

So which base is Jim talking about? Does this base have a name, as most do?

[Len Colby]

I'm still trying to figure out which "giant Navy base" at Nag's Head, NC that Jim is talking about. I can't find a base AT Nags Head...there's the Naval base at Stumpy Point, NC [which, oddly enough, has no name listed on Google Maps]...and across East Lake I find Naval Air Station Chambers, listed on Google Maps as Norfolk, VA...but at Nags Head, I find nothing related to a naval base.

So which base is Jim talking about? Does this base have a name, as most do?

Uhhh...it was secret.:

http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6538d9fa536fef71600d362644a6b333&topic=277.msg3925#msg3925

The following links give a detailed account of information relating to the credibility of Tosh Plumlee and creates an in-depth understanding of covert operations and what was going on before, during and after the time period he was involved with and how it fit into the JFK assassination....

Q: Tosh, did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

A: Yes, I knew Lee Harvey Oswald.

Q: Where did you first meet him?

A: I first meet Lee Harvey Oswald at a secret base called Illusionary

Warfare Training at Nagshead, North Carolina in 1959 prior to him going to

language school and going to Russia.

Q: Did you just meet him or did you get to know him?

A: I got to...well, I just met him and remembered him....At the time that I

met him in '59 he was a Marine, we were all in Illusionary Warfare Training,

or something...propaganda stuff, and he was there and he was doing language

study at that particular point. I didn't recognize him as anybody them other

than just another black operative...

I can't believe anyone finds Plumlee credible especially after he "faked" his own death and then made up a cockamamie explaination. It seems that Plumlee and LHO were the only people who went to "Illusionary Warfare Training" because there are no other mentions of it on the Net, the place seems to be positively "Illusionary"

Jim originally described it as,

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_2_review.html

...Because the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) operated a huge base nearby at the coastal town of Nag's Head.

What constitutes "huge" in the context of describing an ONI base, not a naval base? Who can say, since they are intended to be kept secret. The official "military" presence is a Coast Guard station at Oregon Inlet.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=nags+head,+nc&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Nags+Head,+NC&gl=us&ei=rzvHTL2NHMSblgfQzaTQAQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ8gEwAA

http://www.uscg.mil/d5/sectnorthcarolina/StaOregonInlet.asp

How he described it elsewhere is irrelevant, here he insisted that there was and still is a huge Navy base there.

By the way...type Naval in the search box when you display the google map for Stumpy Point, NC, and an "approximate" location for the Naval Base will pop up.

Must be a Dept. of Fatherland Security precaution.

You must not have searched very hard the Dare County Range is described here among other locations. It is a USAF/USN bombing range and only opened in 1965

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/dare-county.htm

[Len Colby]

Hemming suggests that the call was possibly routed to either the Elizabeth City or Nags Head area of North Carolina.

[...]

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/harvey/harvey-eyeball.htm

Harvey Point Defense Testing Activity

Elizabeth City, NC

The Harvey Point facility was established in World War II as an operating base for blimps conducting anti-submarine surveillance of the Atlantic coast. It is used by CIA's Directorate of Operations for personnel training in explosives, paramilitary combat, and other clandestine warfare techniques.

Specifically,

the Point is where "hardcore" paramilitary ops are worked on

. The Farm teaches basics, relative to work done at the Point, from a paramilitary perspective. A course called AET, or Applied Explosive Techniques, is just one example. US Navy SEALs are frequently trained in this course of instruction. The group called SAD, or

Special Activities Division

, which is part of DS&T teaches many of these courses as well. SAD is an office devoted to sabotage techniques and blowing things up. They run training all the time--were responsible for the mining of the harbors down south about 10 years ago. SAD also runs EOD courses for the Secret Service.

Within the CIA's Directorate of Operation the areas are broken into the following organizational structures--divisions and staffs and branches, respectively. There is a PM Branch (or paramilitary branch) and their staff is called the Special Activities Staff or SAS. The Special Activities Staff is on par with CAG (Combat Applications Group, formerly Delta) and DevGroup (Naval SpecWar Development Group, former Seal Team 6) as far as operational ability and missions profile. It is considered a special mission unit [sMU], and carried out special collection activites (LRSU ops, etc), sabotage, friendly personnel/material recovery, threat pers/material snatches, BDAs, CT osp, raids, hostage rescue and other activities as directed by the President.

The SAS is a little known group working within the DO's paramilitary structure and is divided into branches: Ground Branch (handles land-based paramilitary combat, special collection activities, sabo, LRSU ops and training of agency personnel in counter terror/counter surv techniques at Camp Peary, Harvey Point, and two other areas within CONUS). The Maritime Branch handles all waterborne activites, such as the jet ski training in the Nevada lakes during the gulf war buildup as part of a insertion/Hostage rescue op. The Air Branch is the modern day version of Air America but to the entire world. Air Branch supplies al planes, helos and related air assets to the agency. If a bigwig needs to fly from HQ to STC (STC is agency parlance for Special Training Center, or Peary) they call on Air Branch, which is in the basement of the agency. If Ground branch needs an air platform for an insertion, they call on Air Branch.

Source

[Walters, Robert, "Going Underground,"

Inquiry,

2 February 1991, pages 12-16.]

Elizabeth City is 60 miles Nag's Head

[Len Colby]

Thanks Tom. Colby is one hell of a researcher, isn' t he? ANd since he does little or no research, he then accuses me of manufacturing interviews. I'd give him my source's phone number, but he wouldn't appreciate it.

Let's not be completely ridiculous Jim. You repeatedly insisted here there was a huge Navy base in Nags Head and even falsely claimed that some guy from Durham talked to you about it. Perhaps he was talking about the obscure 30 man Coast Guard Station 9 miles form there and you thought he was talking about the mythical Navy Base.

So do you think Julia Child and Herbert Marcuse were CIA agents in the 60's?

Was LHO drafted into the CIA when he was 15?

[Terry Mauro]

What's your take on Herbert Marcuse?

[Linda Minor]

Elizabeth City is 60 miles Nag's Head

58 by land, but the Navy has boats.

[Len Colby]

Thanks Tom. Colby is one hell of a researcher, isn' t he? ANd since he does little or no research, he then accuses me of manufacturing interviews. I'd give him my source's phone number, but he wouldn't appreciate it.

Let's not be completely ridiculous Jim. You repeatedly insisted here there was a huge Navy base in Nags Head and even falsely claimed that some guy from Durham talked to you about it.

The italicized part above is a complete fabrication by you to disguise your own sloppiness and ineptitude as a researcher.

LOL my “sloppiness and ineptitude” you kept insisting there was a “huge Navy Base at Nags Head” I told you there wasn’t even a small one there. I was right and you were wrong and I am sloppy!? Amazing. Are you really insisting that your recounting for your recent conversation with the film maker from Durham about the non-existent base was accurate? You wrote:

“Anyone who lives in the area knows about the huge Navy Base at Nags Head. For you to say you grew up in NC and did not is surprising. Where did you live: in the boondocks in the western part of the state? Most everyone in the triangle--Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte--has heard of it. I just got visited by a film maker who lives in Durham. He told me all about it at just the drop of its name.”

Since there are no Navy bases in NC let alone Nags Head. I only see three possibilities in order of likelihood

1) You were confused and he was talking about some other facility perhaps Norfolk Naval Station or Camp Lejune.

2) You made it up

3) The guy was pulling your leg (or outright lying).

If there was a forth that I missed perhaps you can tell us what it was. Only if 3) were true would your statement not be false.

LC: Was LHO drafted into the CIA when he was 15?

More BS by you. LHO joined the CAP at age 16 on the recommendation of his pal Ed Voebel. After a year associated with Ferrie--who clearly was a CIA agent--he had the ambition to be some kind of military intelligence agent. At age 17, which made him underage, he tried to enlist in the Marines. It was not successful.

He then waited until he was 18.

First trained as a radar operator,at Keesler, he then received his language and intelligence training in Calfornia.

This made him attractive for the Navy defector program. So his supervisors faked the whole hardship discharge.

I believe it is at this point that he became part of Angelton's program. And I base that on 1.) Russia was Angleton's domain at CIA and CIA had the upper hand over all intelligence agencies according to the Dulles reorganization, and 2.) The bizarre misfiling and mishandling of the Oswald file at CIA once he got to Russia.

So from that time line, I do not believe Oswald actually came under CIA aegis until he was 20 years old.

OMG I was so far off the mark! You don't believe he was recruited into the CIA when he was 16 or 15 but rather he was recruited by a CIA agent into being a budding military intelligence agent who started feigning an interest in Marxism at that age to further this objective. To not split hairs you believe he was pursuing this object starting at 16 even if he did not actually sign up for government service till he was older. Margaruite said he joined CAP at 15 but I won’t quibble about that.

So I'll rephrase an earlier question can you cite any confirmed cases of someone in the US of being recruited into intel work at 16?

[Len Colby]

Elizabeth City is 60 miles Nag's Head

58 by land, but the Navy has boats.

The Harvey Point facility is 84 miles by road and about 45 miles by boat. In anycase it is NOT Nags Head.

[Len Colby]

What's your take on Herbert Marcuse?

If we accept Jim's "logic" we must assume he and Julia Child were still doing intel work tin the 60's

[William Kelly]

Thanks to Gary Buell for posting this.

An Oswald Witness

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_archive.html

(From "The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: How the CIA Set Up Oswald" by Mark Lane, Hustler, October 1978)

Recently, a former Marine who had served with Oswald in Santa Ana, California, after Oswald had returned from Atsugi, began to talk about his discussions with him. His name is David Bucknell.

Bucknell told me that one day he and Oswald went to a tavern near the base to drink a few beers. Two women approached them. Later that day Oswald told Bucknell the incident with the women reminded him of a experience he had had at Atsugi. Oswald had been alone in a bar when an attractive Japanese woman approached him, he told Bucknell. She asked him some questions about his work on the base. That work was, of course, with the supersecret U-2 program. Oswald,predictably, reported that conversation to his superior officer, who then arranged for a meeting on the base between Oswald and a man dressed in civilian clothes.

The man, a “security” or “security-intelligence” operator, explained to Oswald that he could do his country a great service. Oswald was told that the woman was a KGB contact and that he would be given false information to pass on to her. Oswald agreed, and while still a teenager in the Marine Corps he became an intelligence operative. His liaison with the woman continued; he was given money to spend at the Queen Bee, and apparently encouraged by American intelligence to enter into a sexual relationship with the woman.

Regarding Oswald’s tour of duty in Japan, Bucknell can only report what Oswald recounted to him. However, he was involved directly with Oswald in an intelligence effort when they both were at MACS-9. In1959 Oswald, Bucknell and others were ordered to report to the Criminal Investigation (CID) at the base. There a civilian began an effort aimed at recruiting those present for an intelligence operation against “Communists” in Cuba. Oswald was selected to make several additional trips to CID. Later he told Bucknell that the civilian who served as his contact or control at Atsugi had taken over the same job at Santa Ana. Still later, Oswald confided to Bucknell that he, Oswald was to be discharged from the Marine Corps very soon and that he would surface in the Soviet Union. Oswald told Bucknell that he was being sent there on assignment by American intelligence and that he would return to the United States in 1961 as a hero.

[Len Colby]

LOL my “sloppiness and ineptitude” you kept insisting there was a “huge Navy Base at Nags Head” I told you there wasn’t even a small one there. I was right and you were wrong and I am sloppy!? Amazing. Are you really insisting that your recounting for your recent conversation with the film maker from Durham about the non-existent base was accurate? You wrote:

“Anyone who lives in the area knows about the huge Navy Base at Nags Head. For you to say you grew up in NC and did not is surprising. Where did you live: in the boondocks in the western part of the state? Most everyone in the triangle--Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte--has heard of it. I just got visited by a film maker who lives in Durham. He told me all about it at just the drop of its name.”

That is what he said. Period. End of story. The only qualifier I would add is this: Since he was a JFK researcher, it may have been familiar to him from his work. Meaning this: He knew who to talk to. You made no attempt to talk to anyone before uttering your specious and empty and, as usual, pretentious pronoucements

Excuse me Mr. “scholar” but it was you not me who kept insisting there was a huge Navy base at Nags Head and I find it hard to believe anyone from Raleigh or Durham would tell you there was one unless they were joking with you. As for your supposition “it may have been familiar to him from his work” on JFK if that were the case he should have told you it was a small secret ONI facility not a “huge Navy base”. Even that is unlikely since it is so obscure and it is hardly established that there was such a place in Nags Head because only 2 - 3 people of questionable credibility said it existed.

Your friend wouldn’t happen to be Ira David Wood III? He is a theater director from Raleigh rather than a filmmaker from Durham but he is a JFK researcher who has commented about the supposed Nags Head base and you can be sloppy about details. He has given good reason to doubt the story about the ONI facility was true:

“On a personal note, I know a lot of people on North Carolina's Outer Banks where Nags Head is located. There were, of course, cottages along the beach during the time Oswald could've received his training as a defector there - but the population was small enough so that the influx of even a dozen or so military personnel would've been noted.”

He is almost certainly correct even today the town’s population is 2700 and the island is only 1200 – 2500 feet wide and thus it would have been impossible to hide something.

He of course continued:

"This, as I discovered, is the case. People I've talked to there remember around a dozen men who were sent to the Coast Guard station on the Outer Banks. The "word" was that they were recovering alcoholics involved in a program to rehabilitate them. Oswald could very well have been among them. So, Marchetti may be correct in asserting that Oswald quite probably received some of his training as a defector at or near Nags Head, North Carolina."

Even if what those people recollected 40 years or so after the fact was true and even if the young men were really intel ops this a very far cry from a huge ONI base let alone “a huge Navy base” and does not fit Plumlee’s account about “a secret base called Illusionary Warfare Training at Nagshead” funny that he omitted the detail about being a publicly known Coast Guard station with them pretending to be recovering drunks or about being trained as a false defector. It makes little sense to me that such a program would be based there because the military has several large bases in the area where it would have been much easier to hide such a program.

And speaking of sloppiness in your review of the Bug’s book you said that Nags Head was “nearby” Raleigh when it really was over 3 hours away. Either you were being deceptive or you were too lazy to look at a map, I think the latter more likely. And saying that…

“the HSCA investigated the affair they found out that Oswald was trying to call a man named John Hurt who lived in Raleigh. (ibid) John Hurt turned out to be a former military counter-intelligence officer.”

…was very misleading because they never determined if he actually made the call or if he has who he was trying to reach. Blakey is a different story but IIRC even he said he did not know who LHO was trying to reach.

LC: Was LHO drafted into the CIA when he was 15?

More BS by you. LHO joined the CAP at age 16 on the recommendation of his pal Ed Voebel. After a year associated with Ferrie--who clearly was a CIA agent--he had the ambition to be some kind of military intelligence agent. At age 17, which made him underage, he tried to enlist in the Marines. It was not successful.

He then waited until he was 18.

First trained as a radar operator,at Keesler, he then received his language and intelligence training in Calfornia.

This made him attractive for the Navy defector program. So his supervisors faked the whole hardship discharge.

I believe it is at this point that he became part of Angelton's program. And I base that on 1.) Russia was Angleton's domain at CIA and CIA had the upper hand over all intelligence agencies according to the Dulles reorganization, and 2.) The bizarre misfiling and mishandling of the Oswald file at CIA once he got to Russia.

So from that time line, I do not believe Oswald actually came under CIA aegis until he was 20 years old.

OMG I was so far off the mark! You don't believe he was recruited into the CIA when he was 16 or 15 but rather he was recruited by a CIA agent into being a budding military intelligence agent who started feigning an interest in Marxism at that age to further this objective. To not split hairs you believe he was pursuing this object starting at 16 even if he did not actually sign up for government service till he was older. Margaruite said he joined CAP at 15 but I won’t quibble about that.

So I'll rephrase an earlier question can you cite any confirmed cases of someone in the US of being recruited into intel work at 16?

This is more empty maneuvering by you. First you say Oswald signed up for the CIA at age 15. Which I never said and is wrong on its face.

Then you say that "oh, let me change it to 16". Which is still wrong. Both in age and in agency.

The bottom line is this: I believe that under the influence of Ferrie, Oswald was ready to be a Marine at age 17 and hoping to get into intelligence work down the line. But he could not actually do that until age 18.

I never said “Oswald signed up for the CIA at age 15” I asked you if that was your position. Your response has been evasion and twisting of words. It doesn’t really matter it was the CIA, DIA, ONI or some other intel agency.

Nor am I especially concerned if it was at 15 or 16. According to the HSCA and his mom he joined the CAP at 15 and it is also well established that he joined the Marines at 17. So I’m not moving my dates back I was accepting the ages you cited for sake of argument and am unsure why you want to push his sign up ages back a year. Correct me if I’m wrong but your position is that - At 16 (though most sources say it was at 15) he joined the CAP and was convinced by a CIA to become a military intelligence operative. In furtherance of that aim he pretended to be interested in Marxism and until he joined the Marines at 18 (though most sources say it was at 17) and maintained this ruse for the rest of his life and a few years after entering the ONI he was transferred to the CIA.

LHO's Marine shooting score card from when he was 17

So my question to you is can you cite any confirmed cases of 15 – 16 year old boys being recruited in to intel work in the US even if they only formally started working for the intel agency when they were 17 or 18?

Also besides the claims of JVB and Marchetti what evidence is there Ferrie was “clearly CIA”?

Are you really going to ask the ridiculous question : "How many young me at age 18 try and be military intel recruits?"

Duh. I would say hundreds each year.

Absurd strawman you are even distorting your own position.

Really, I don't know who is worse, you or Lamson or Carroll. But you all argue from a preconceived position. No matter what the evidence, you try and maintain it come hell or high water.

A perfect self description, debating you differs little from debating Fetzer.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Len Colby