Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?

[William Kelly]

I don't think you have to be a doctor to determine that Oswald was not crazy, insane, an idiot, psycho or a homicidal maniac.

And, as discussed here:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/10/lee-harvey-oswald-motives.html

If he was, then he wasn't guilty of murder anyway because he wouldn't be responsible for his actions.

If not crazy, then his true motives for doing the things he did can be determined.

In the end, I think we will find that, as he was set up to be the Patsy, he had very little to do with the assassination itself,

and is a red herring who was designed to lead all those who follow him astray.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

In the end, I think we will find that... he had very little to do with the assassination itself,

Well actually you will find that he had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with

it.

and is a red herring who was designed to lead all those who follow him astray.

Well you and just about everyone else on this forum are doing the assassins the great favor of following this INNOCENT red herring ad infinitum!

[Len Colby]

The guy joined the Marines despite being an avowed Marxist,

This man served his country honorably in uniform. He is perfectly entitled to his political views & theories, which at 17 were probably very tentative.

"Tentative"? IIRC he had been calling himself a Marxist since he was 15 or so, he continued to do so till he died. He joined at the height of the Cold War when the US military's principle function was to resist the spread of Marxism. It would be sort of like a self avowed fascist and fan of the Axis powers joining the Marines shortly before Pearl Harbor.

shot himself accidentally,

In the course of his life he inflicted ONE VERY MINOR injury on himself. While President JFK cut his hand with a bread knife: You want to call JFK a uselss idiot on that account? Have YOU ever suffered a minor injury and, if so, were you entirely blameless?

Yes I’ve injured myself but keeping a loaded gun (against regs) with the safety off and putting it precariously in a locker were hardly the acts of a genius. If he’d cut himself doing KP or with a bread knife he would not have been court marshaled. You call the injury minor but he was very lucky that it was not more serious.

was considered an idiot by his KGB handlers

OH wow, so your best source is the KGB?

One of several, they had a former US soldier who had security clearance and was a true believer but they could find no use for him.

and Soviet neighbors,

I'd say you are wrong about that.

Take a look at the Asperger’s thread, I quoted a few, most about his ability to speak Russian but IIRC a few said he was dopey.

expected to have his discharge reclassified as honorable after he got a leave under false pretenses

There is no evidence of false pretenses. By the time he got home his mother had recovered from whatever ailed her.

The fact that you have no ideal what supposedly “ailed her” undermines your assertion something did. Do you have any evidence she real was sick enough to warrant her son’s discharge? Is it a coincidence he went to the USSR forthwith? IIRC his planning for the trip started before he asked to be discharged.

and defected to the USSR

He went to live in Russia.

Come on Ray, he tried to renounce his US citizenship, applied for Soviet citizenship, slit his wrists when they refused, threatened to give the Russians military secrets and apparently tried to but did not know anything they did not already know.

and then held a secession of menial jobs.

Ah! here's the clincher. He belonged to the working class. Beneath contempt, old boy!

He considered himself above such things, he was well read, reasonably intelligent, proficient in Russian and had experience as a radar operator but he ended up moving boxes in a warehouse.

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence there obviously was something wrong with him, perhaps Greg was right about him having Aspergers.

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence, Mr. Colby obviously has something wrong with him. Maybe the eminent psychiatrist Greg can diagnose it, but my own view is that Mr. Colby's mind has been unable to withstand the incredible barrage of anti-Oswald propaganda that he has been subjected to ever since 11/22/63, and that continues on this and other forums.

Amazing I’ve been subject to such “propaganda” since before my conception! I don’t hate him, I just think he was a fool.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

"Tentative"? IIRC he had been calling himself a Marxist since he was 15 or so, he continued to do so till he died. He joined at the height of the Cold War when the US military's principle function was to resist the spread of Marxism.

THere is no contradiction between espousing Marxist ideas (as opposed to Leninist) and serving your native country. In my younger days I knew many guys who espoused Marxist ideas, and they were all perfectly good citizens.

Am I addressing the same Len Colby who wrote the following, or are there two of you?

You have to learn to be more tolerant on those whose views vary a little from yours.

a few said he was dopey.

Correct me if I am wrong, Len, but haven't quite a few members here stated or insinuated that you yourself are dopey. Should I use that as PROOF of YOUR status?

The fact that you have no ideal what supposedly “ailed her” undermines your assertion something did.

THe assertion is Marguerite's, and not mine.

Do you have any evidence she real was sick enough to warrant her son’s discharge?

Even if she exaggerated her illness (and I am not saying she did) on what basis do you blame the son for what his mother said?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

PART 2 of my response to Mr. Colby's post today:

[his planning for the trip started before he asked to be discharged.

Good thinking on his part. As a friend of mine says, you should always plan ahead, because you can't plan backwards.

[H]e tried to renounce his US citizenship,

Sorry Len. close, but no cigar. He SAID he wanted to renounce his citizenship, but his WORDS ALONE did not even amount to an ATTEMPT, as the state department had to recognize. It is a historical fact that Lee Oswald never renounced his citizenship.

applied for Soviet citizenship,

And when they finally offered him Soviet citizenship he told them to shove it up their asses (of course he was much too polite to use that kind of language).

slit his wrists when they refused,

THe consensus of the Doctors was that he had no intention of killing himself

threatened to give the Russians military secrets and apparently tried to

Do you have PROOF that he TRIED to?

I don’t hate him, I just think he was a fool....he ended up moving boxes in a warehouse.

When I was young I also worked in a warehouse for a few months, but I wasn't moving boxes, and neither was Lee Oswald. He was filling orders for school textbooks, and thereby contributing to the education of the young, a worthy cause, don't you think?

[H]e was well read, reasonably intelligent, proficient in Russian and had experience as a radar operator..

No argument from me on this and, according to Lieutenant Donovan, he was a damn good radar operator.

Since we are now heading close to nut country with talk of Aspergers, let me recall an email I sent to Gary Mack and posted on the John Abt thread:

When you and I spoke some time ago, you indicated your belief that Oz was a "nut,"

and of course we disagree about that. While I have a very low opinion of Nichols as a lawyer and even as a human being, his statement that Oz appeared "perfectly rational" is corroborated by everyone else who spoke to Oz that weekend, and by my own observations of Oz as he appeared in his short and sweet TV appearances.

Do you have any evidence that Oz was a nut?

Gary is normally very prompt about responding, but more than a week has gone by without reply. Maybe Gary & Greg should put their heads together, and prove that Oz was a nut.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Mr. Carroll sounds a lot like Bugliosi in relation to Oswald and the CIA:

Only to someone with a TIN EAR.

As I outlined in Part 2 of this series, Oswald’s life and career fit perfectly into the profile of an intelligence operative .... After the work of ..John Newman... it is the height of folly to deny this today. But by doing so ... the author can curtail any possibility that the CIA had a role in Kennedy’s assassination.

Bugliosi can TRY to pretend that Angleton (it is unfair to blame the CIA as a whole) had no role in Kennedy's assassination, but the evidence of Angleton's involvement is right there in the files, as described in John Newman's book.

James Angleton had bifurcated Oswald’s file so that no one but he would have all the information about Oswald at this time. (Ibid, p. 393),

No argument from me on this, and I am sure you are not suggesting that Angleton acted alone. His buddy Helms certainly stepped in to help at crucial moments during the Warren Commission.

But John Newman does not prove that Lee Oswald knew anything about Angleton's machinations, and so I suggest that if Dr. Newman ever issues a revised version of his book, he should re-name it

THE CIA Vs. LEE OSWALD

And this forum should be re-named EVERYBODY Vs. Lee Oswald.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Angleton replies, oh, sorry Lee, you weren't supposed to know that.

Since John Newman admits he cannot prove that Oz was working for -- or in contact with -- Angleton or his agents, maybe YOU can.

I'm all ears.

Edited October 23, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Greg Parker]

PART 2 of my response to Mr. Colby's post today:

[his planning for the trip started before he asked to be discharged.

Good thinking on his part. As a friend of mine says, you should always plan ahead, because you can't plan backwards.

[H]e tried to renounce his US citizenship,

Sorry Len. close, but no cigar. He SAID he wanted to renounce his citizenship, but his WORDS ALONE did not even amount to an ATTEMPT, as the state department had to recognize. It is a historical fact that Lee Oswald never renounced his citizenship.

applied for Soviet citizenship,

And when they finally offered him Soviet citizenship he told them to shove it up their asses (of course he was much too polite to use that kind of language).

slit his wrists when they refused,

THe consensus of the Doctors was that he had no intention of killing himself

threatened to give the Russians military secrets and apparently tried to

Do you have PROOF that he TRIED to?

I don't hate him, I just think he was a fool....he ended up moving boxes in a warehouse.

When I was young I also worked in a warehouse for a few months, but I wasn't moving boxes, and neither was Lee Oswald. He was filling orders for school textbooks, and thereby contributing to the education of the young, a worthy cause, don't you think?

[H]e was well read, reasonably intelligent, proficient in Russian and had experience as a radar operator..

No argument from me on this and, according to Lieutenant Donovan, he was a damn good radar operator.

Since we are now heading close to nut country with talk of Aspergers, let me recall an email I sent to Gary Mack and posted on the John Abt thread:

When you and I spoke some time ago, you indicated your belief that Oz was a "nut,"

and of course we disagree about that. While I have a very low opinion of Nichols as a lawyer and even as a human being, his statement that Oz appeared "perfectly rational" is corroborated by everyone else who spoke to Oz that weekend, and by my own observations of Oz as he appeared in his short and sweet TV appearances.

Do you have any evidence that Oz was a nut?

Gary is normally very prompt about responding, but more than a week has gone by without reply. Maybe Gary & Greg should put their heads together, and prove that Oz was a nut.

You're speaking from ignorance (again), Ray.

Asperger's is not a mental condition. It is a delepmental syndrome. Among those suspected of having mild Asperger's are Bill Gates, Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton. I suppose they are suspected of having Asperger's because they were all "nuts" according to you?

Common traits of Asperger's: foreign language ability; intense interest in one or more specific areas; dyspraxia (which can mimic dyslexia); lack of social skills; above average intelligence; inability to "read" non-verbal language; physical awkwardness, among others.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

THe idea that Angleton would leave the smoking gun in the file is nutty.

I can't believe you are that dense, Jim boy.

John Newman's book demonstrates that there is plenty in the files to implicate Angleton in the assassination, but NOTHING to implicate Lee Oswald. We are agreed on that, I think. Yet you claim that Oz was working for ANgleton, and you claim to have studied Oz's life and times, so I will rephrase my question and ask you to THINK before replying:

Since Newman found nothing in the files to prove that Oz was working for Angleton, can YOU, Jim Di Eugenio, after all your own research independent of Newman, produce EVIDENCE from any other source to back up your claim? Or is your claim simply based on an act of FAITH?

Why not go over to AAJ with your buddy Dave Von Pein who you think is closer to the truth than us.

Von Pein is correct in claiming that Lee Oswald was not part of the conspiracy.

But from where I sit, he is an OSWALD ACCUSER, just like you. Oswald accusers come in different stripes, but the differences don't matter much in the long run. You are all accusing an innocent man.

Edited October 24, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

You're speaking from ignorance (again), Ray. Asperger's is not a mental condition.

My wife works with Asperger kids, and I listen to her stories every day. THe subject is endlessly fascinating, but has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the assassination of JFK.

BTW Greg, when you re-post someone else's post in full you demonstrate that you have not yet figured out how to use the forum software, and it makes you look stupid.

[Len Colby]

Mr. Carroll sounds a lot like Bugliosi in relation to Oswald and the CIA:

"The author then writes the following: “... there is no evidence that Oswald had any relationship with the CIA ... Oswald was clearly not CIA agent or operative material.” (p. 1199) This is nonsense. Just follow the arc of Oswald’s shortened life from the time he first joined the Civil Air Patrol and met David Ferrie

How is him briefly being a member of the CAP as a teenager evidence he was CIA? Do you really think he was recruited when he was 15? I don't know of any hard evidence Ferrie was CIA or had contact with LHO after 1955.

to the attempted phone call he made to military intelligence officer John Hurt the night before he was killed

Let’s try the non-BS version:

LHO supposedly wanted to call someone in Raleigh by the name of John Hurt and gave two phone numbers. They were the numbers of two different men by that name in that city, both of whom were listed according to one researcher. One of the two was in Army Intelligence during WWII but denied getting called from Dallas than night, having any contact with Oswald or even having heard of him before the assassination. I'm not even sure it has been confirmed he had been an officer. No researchers have been able to contact or discover anything about the other John Hurt. The fact he didn't even have the guy's phone number undermines the notion he was some sort of contact.

and you will see what nonsense it is.

I agree this is nonsense

As Jim Garrison so memorably described in his book, he was shocked to see that a radar operator like Oswald was getting tested in the Russian language while in the Marine Corps. (On the Trail of the Assassins, p. 22) As Garrison wrote, even though he had been in military service for well over twenty years when he read about this test, he “could not recall a single soldier ever having been required to demonstrate how much Russian he had learned.” (ibid, p. 23) He then added that as a radar operator, Oswald would have about as much use for the Russian language “as a cat would have for pajamas.” (ibid) The implication being that Oswald was being trained in the language for a future mission.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I've always understood it LHO studied Russian of his own initiative because of his interest in the USSR and asked to be tested.

Which, according to Bugliosi, by a wild coincidence, actually happened: the Marine gets a phony hardship discharge and then defects to Russia.

I agree the discharge was phony but IIRC his mom claimed to be ill, was she in on it? What exactly do you think his mission to the USSR was? Spying on Ukrainian TV factories?

As I outlined in Part 2 of this series, Oswald’s life and career fit perfectly into the profile of an intelligence operative who was first sent to Russia as a fake defector, and then returned to the USA to act as an agent provocateur.

And was besides his FPCC antics did do along those lines in his year and a half back in the US?

After the work of Philip Melanson, John Newman, and John Armstrong,

Armstrong reached far fetched conclusions on scanty evidenced, based on your discussions with Ray, Newman's evidence is lacking. What evidence has Melanson come up with?

it is the height of folly to deny this today. But by doing so—as with Ruby and the Mob—the author can curtail any possibility that the CIA had a role in Kennedy’s assassination. For if Oswald was a CIA operative, then it is easy to see him being maneuvered across a chess board—from New Orleans to Mexico to Dallas—as an unwitting pawn. Bugliosi cannot have that so he just denies or makes excuses for all the evidence that indicates it happened. He even quotes the HSCA Report as saying that once the CIA heard he was in Mexico City the Agency initiated background checks and noticed other agencies of his possible contact with the Soviets. (Bugliosi, p.1199) This is highly misleading. As the declassified Lopez Report reveals:

The CIA sent out the wrong description of Oswald to those other agencies. (John Newman, Oswald and the CIA, p. 398)

James Angleton had bifurcated Oswald’s file so that no one but he would have all the information about Oswald at this time. (Ibid, p. 393), and

Please elaborate on the underlined points.

Because of this, there was no on the ground investigation by the CIA as to Oswald’s alleged visits to the Cuban and Russian consulates prior to the assassination. And the CIA lied about this fact. (Lopez Report, pgs. 156-57)

Are you saying one part of the CIA mislead another? Why would you expect an "on the ground investigation"? Was this SOP for Americans seen visiting the consulates? What was the supposed lie?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/lopezrpt_2003/html/LopezRpt_0168a.htm

Edited October 24, 2010 by Len Colby

[J. Raymond Carroll]

you want to keep the image of LHO as the WC did..

And I do that by asserting that Oz was a completely innocent man, falsely accused?

in the Epilogue, its pretty clear what John thinks today.... that Oswald was being run as an off the books agent.

Without pay or benefits?

John may hold that opinion, but he certainly does not prove it in his book.

What else explains the Otekpa incident, as John describes it? What else explains the John Hurt call?

The WWIII scenario that Newman describes required people to believe that Oz was a Soviet agent THe Otepka incident is consistent with Newman's basic thesis (which I accept), but does not mean that Oz was Angleton's

agent. It simply means that Angleton did not want anyone prying into the Oswald files.

THe John Hurt phone call entered the assassination story through Bernard Fensterwald, and for many researchers that in itself is enough to discredit the story. The fact that the story is further propelled by Helms's pal Marchetti is a further indication that the tale is bogus. THis is a story that leads absolutely nowhere, which again indicates that it is disinformation.

Duh, Raymond Boy, Von Pein says Oswald killed Kennedy! Or did you miss that?

Duh yourself, James me boy, I did not miss that.

If you didn't why do you not say it?

I DID say it, but you were not paying attention.

The above is a good example of why Gene Case..., Mili Cranor, and others on this site were and are suspicious of you.

I have met the lovely Miss Cranor on more than one occasion, and she never demonstrated any suspicion towards me, so I will not accept hearsay in this instance. As for the late Gene Case, may he rest in peace. De Mortuis Nihil Bonum Nisi, but it does not trouble me that the guy who produced the atom bomb advertisement for Lyndon Johnson was suspicious of me.

[Michael Hogan]

As I outlined in Part 2 of this series, Oswald’s life and career fit perfectly into the profile of an intelligence operative who was first sent to Russia as a fake defector, and then returned to the USA to act as an agent provocateur. After the work of Philip Melanson, John Newman, and John Armstrong, it is the height of folly to deny this today.

From JFK and the Unspeakable; In the chapter Kennedy, Castro, and the CIA (page 65) James Douglass writes:

....For the CIA, he (Oswald) was acting as a provocateur, subverting the public image of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

As we shall see, Oswald was also being drawn into the plot to kill the president, in which his activities as a pro-Castro

demonstrator were preparing the ground for his role as the assassination scapegoat.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

From JFK and the Unspeakable; In the chapter Kennedy, Castro, and the CIA (page 65) James Douglass writes:

....For the CIA, he (Oswald) was acting as a provocateur,

I interpret this to say that Lee Oswald was working for the CIA as an agent provocateur. Does Douglass have any EVIDENCE to back up his accusation that Oz was a fraud, or does he simply expect his readers to take it on FAITH?

[Michael Hogan]

From JFK and the Unspeakable; In the chapter Kennedy, Castro, and the CIA (page 65) James Douglass writes:

....For the CIA, he (Oswald) was acting as a provocateur,

I interpret this to say that Lee Oswald was working for the CIA as an agent provocateur. Does Douglass have any EVIDENCE to back up his accusation that Oz was a fraud, or does he simply expect his readers to take it on FAITH?

That's a most canny interpretation.

I guess you'll have to read his book. FRAUD is your word, not his. Let's just say he offers more evidence for what he writes than YOU ever have for your claims about Oswald.

I see you're still struggling with the Forum software's QUOTE function.