Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?

[Len Colby]

And we missed celebrating his birthday on October 18 (1939) - pushing 70. It's hard to imagine Oswald at 70 or JFK at 93.

BK

Hey Bill: Many thanks indeed for the info you PM'd. I guess I owe you a large Tullamore Dew. Speaking of which, I recently finished Stieg Larsen's fabulous trilogy beginning with The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. Larsen may be the best mystery writer since Edgar Allen Poe invented the genre. The BIG question, i.e. what kind of alcohol would a girl like this drink, remains unanswered until the final volume (The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest) and the answer is....Tullamore Dew.

Back to the thread: Has no one here ever heard of the concept of JUSTICE?

Spoiler!! But I agree with you about Larsen, I recently finished The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, but they don't have the other books here.

[Len Colby]

Jim

Still waiting for a RATIONAL explanation as to why the CIA would want to help the USSR down a U2.

[William Kelly]

I claim, very specifically, that Lee Oswald had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the JFK assassination, and that those who accuse him are just playing games and have no real interest in solving the case.

Carroll to David Von Pein on 08/12/10:

"Hello David. You may feel like an outlaw here, but IMO you are closer to the truth than most of the members. You are correct in thinking that Lee Oswald acted alone."

I am sure David Von Pein, who is much smarter than Mr. Hogan (though equally misguided), was able to figure this one out. If Lee Oswald had nothing to do with the conspiracy to murder JFK, then he acted alone, just like Mr. Von Pein did, and just like I did.

Is that too complicated for you Mike?

When Bugliosi was wrapping up his book Reclaiming History - Soon to be brought to the screen as a serialized Tom Hanks HBO Production - he made a late but necessary phone call to John Judge, the Director of the Coalition on Political Assassinations (COPA), just to touch base so he was able to say that he reviewed all of the possible conspiracy theories out there and was able to reject them all.

When Bugliosi said, "I know you don't agree with me that Oswald acted alone," Judge replied, "Oh, no, I do agree with you Vince, Oswald did act alone, he just didn't kill the President or anybody that day."

Which says a lot about the differences in perspective and approach that we all have.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Spoiler!! But I agree with you about Larsen, I recently finished The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, but they don't have the other books here.

Well you have a helluva treat in store. The Girl Who Played With Fire is a BIG improvement over Dragon Tattoo, and the final volume is a total ass-kicker! And BTW, there is much more than the mystery of her favorite adult beverage. In fact, the final volume strikes me as a parallel, whether intended or not I do not know, to the plot that killed JFK.

Edited October 21, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

When Bugliosi said, "I know you don't agree with me that Oswald acted alone," Judge replied, "Oh, no, I do agree with you Vince, Oswald did act alone, he just didn't kill the President or anybody that day."

Which says a lot about the differences in perspective and approach that we all have.

BK

Well that's funny Bill, because when John Judge called me some years ago asking me to join COPA he told me that COPA was not prepared to say that Oz was innocent. I refused to join when Mr. Judge told me that all COPA was prepared to say was that "Oswald did not act alone."

Has COPA changed its stance, and if so when & why?

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, John Newman, who is a COPA leading light, claims in his book that Oz appeared with a rifle on JFK's motorcade route

[Michael Hogan]

I claim, very specifically, that Lee Oswald had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the JFK assassination, and that those who accuse him are just playing games and have no real interest in solving the case.

Carroll to David Von Pein on 08/12/10:

"Hello David. You may feel like an outlaw here, but IMO you are closer to the truth than most of the members. You are correct in thinking that Lee Oswald acted alone."

I am sure David Von Pein, who is much smarter than Mr. Hogan (though equally misguided), was able to figure this one out. If Lee Oswald had nothing to do with the conspiracy to murder JFK, then he acted alone, just like Mr. Von Pein did, and just like I did.

Is that too complicated for you Mike?

I posted your words without comment. Is that too complicated for you?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I posted your words without comment.

That's what you usually do, post other peoples words. A trained monkey could do that!

[J. Raymond Carroll]

THe implication being that Angleton knew it was all a pose.

Because Oswald was his guy.

And as Newman shows, he was.

It may be that Newman ALLEGES that, but but can you please cite the page number(s) where he PROVES it?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Why not drop the pose Ray?

I think we can agree on this: One of us is not what he would like everyone to think he is.

Edited October 21, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

This person is indeed a microcosm of everything that is wrong with this world that we all live in.

Wow! I guess when I say that Lee Oswald was innocent, and his accusers are fools at best, I really KICKED THE HORNET'S NEST.

[Michael Hogan]

This person is indeed a microcosm of everything that is wrong with this world that we all live in.

Wow! I guess when I say that Lee Oswald was innocent, and his accusers are fools at best, I really KICKED THE HORNET'S NEST.

Get real man. You've kicked a hornet's nest here for years. Without provocation you've referred to members as jerks, sexual perverts, liars, dope-addled ignoramuses and the like.

You're fortunate to still have posting privileges.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Michael Hogan

[David Andrews]

Aw, I liked the "sexual pervert" reference and don't hold it against Ray. It almost saved my marriage.

I wish Ray would write his book so we can see what he's on about re: Oswald's complete innocence.

Myself, I know Oz had his "Warrior" rubber stamp kit in the way of tradecraft, and was working his way up to one of these when his life was tragically ended:

Edited October 21, 2010 by David Andrews

[Len Colby]

Jim

Still waiting for a RATIONAL explanation as to why the CIA would want to help the USSR down a U2.

I never said they did. What Newman is getting at is that the threat Oswald imposed on this possibility should have triggered a real investigation, and also real haste as to what to do with his files at CIA HQ.

Neither one happened.

THe implication beings that Angleton knew it was all a pose.

Because Oswald was his guy.

And as Newman shows, he was.

Strange it really sounded like thats what Newman and you were driving at. From your review of his book:

Needless to say, after Oswald defected, the second U-2 flight over Russia--with Gary Powers on board--was shot down. Powers felt that, "Oswald's work with the new MPS 16 height-finding radar looms large" in that event. (p. 43) The author segues here to this question: Whatever the CIA did or did not do in regard to this important question, it should have been a routine part of the Warren Commission inquiry. It was not. As the author notes, "When called to testify at the Warren Commission hearings, Oswald's marine colleagues were not questioned about the U-2." (p. 43) Oswald's commander in the Far East, John Donovan, was ready to discuss the issue in depth. The Commission was not. In fact, Donovan was briefed in advance not to fall off topic. (p. 45) When it was over, Donovan had to ask, "Don't you want to know anything about the U-2." He even asked a friend of his who had testified: "Did they ask you about the U-2?" And he said, "No, not a thing." (Ibid) Donovan revealed that the CIA did not question him about the U-2 until December of 1963. But this was probably a counter-intelligence strategy, to see whom he had talked to and what he had revealed. Why is that a distinct probability? Because right after Powers was shot down, the CIA closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi. Yet, Powers did not fly out of Atsugi. As Newman notes, the only link between Powers and Atsugi was Oswald. (p. 46)

Why did Newman mention and speculate about the ending of U2 flights from Atsugi if not to imply LHO had given the Soviets sensitive info.

Perhaps this aspect was not investigated because he didn't know much of value. According to Russo Dino Burgoni scoffed at the notion he did.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Myself, I know Oz had his "Warrior" rubber stamp kit in the way of tradecraft, and was working his way up to one of these when his life was tragically ended:

David: I like the "tragically ended" part. It seems that you & I are the only posters on this thread so far who see things that way.

Although you often come across as an Oswald accuser like everyone else on this thread, I have the feeling that your HEART isn't really in it.

But could you PLEASE explain the "rubber stamp" and "Warrior" thing above. I confess you have completely lost me.

BTW THANK YOU for the encouragement.

Edited October 21, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[David Andrews]

Although you often come across as an Oswald accuser like everyone else on this thread, I have the feeling that your HEART isn't really in it.

I don't think the arrested Oswald shot Kennedy, alone or otherwise. My gut feeling from all circumstances, as I've said before, is that he was acting under orders to "observe and report," probably by a faction which he thought was Kennedy-friendly. Either they betrayed him, or he was cut out by the actual plotters.

As in the circles around Richard Case Nagell, I suspect there were many factions at work in that season. Like Nagell, Oswald may have been confused and without a scorecard. What if it's not faction A or faction B that betrayed and/or killed Oz, but a faction C? Nagell's professed experiences with Oswald really ought to be examined for clues to the events between the assassination and Oz's arrest.

Do I think Oz was "practicing tradecraft" that day? Yes. A spook for years? Oh, hell, yes! How else do you acquire the twin curses of the Paines and the DeMohrenschildts? Not by being an innocent.

However, one place my heart isn't is in concluding that Oz was "dumb" or "pathetic." Wrong moves and divided motives when people are setting you up or stalking you do not constitute a curriculum vita.

But - having reasons for people setting you up or stalking you, that implies a certain type CV.

But could you PLEASE explain the "rubber stamp" and "Warrior" thing above. A hyperbolic joke on "tradecraft" and "scoutcraft."

Edited October 25, 2010 by David Andrews