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I agree, judging by history there will be nothing but betas - ever....Let's give the next beta a few years and it's a sure bet we will see new "facts", new conversations, new places - and we will as usual, be missing some of what she's now claiming.

We can take that to the bank.

Glenn V.

See, there .... internal consistency! :-)

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I agree, judging by history there will be nothing but betas - ever....Let's give the next beta a few years and it's a sure bet we will see new "facts", new conversations, new places - and we will as usual, be missing some of what she's now claiming.

We can take that to the bank.

Glenn V.

See, there .... internal consistency! :-)

Yes, indeed internal consistency.

Cut the tail, and new heads will grow. Cut the heads and new tails will show up. Do nothing and the body will grow indefinately.

Strange organism, an entirely new breed, this story.

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Thanks, Barb...for that slice of AWFUL FICTION.

May I remind this about the FINAL CALL. The version I remember (from postings on Rich's forum),

was that "Lee used a pay phone in a washateria across the street from his Beckley rooming house,

and the time was about midnight". I remember this specifically, because it sent Dallas researchers

on a search for the laundromat in Oak Cliff.

I did not see any mention of the coin laundry on Beckley. Has she abandoned that?

Jack

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Thanks, Barb...for that slice of AWFUL FICTION.

May I remind this about the FINAL CALL. The version I remember (from postings on Rich's forum),

was that "Lee used a pay phone in a washateria across the street from his Beckley rooming house,

and the time was about midnight". I remember this specifically, because it sent Dallas researchers

on a search for the laundromat in Oak Cliff.

I did not see any mention of the coin laundry on Beckley. Has she abandoned that?

Jack

Ahhh, yes, the laundromat figured prominently before. I don't see any mention of it in the section that deals with her phone calls from Oswald after he returned to Dallas and was living at the Beckley rooming house in this new book. Do you think it could be because of the exchanges we had on this in the Exile thread last March? :-)

Here is a link:

Exile thread re Oswald calling J from the washateria

Scroll down to post #285 ... it contains two of Judyth's responses to you about this .... as well as my reply to you citing the documents where the janitor of said laundromat had been interviewed by the FBI. Here is the info I posted at that time:

From post #285,Exile thread, March 2010:

QUOTE

Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:

CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.

Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)

CE3000 can be seen here:

CE3000

CE3001 can be seen here:

CE3001

CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.

CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:

CE3009

Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.

The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.

Bests,

Barb :-)

END QUOTE

CE3009 runs like 9 pages, info from Johnson is on the fourth page.

With that info from Johnson, who was there, the all night laundromat pay phone claim seemed to have been ... uh ... all washed up, eh?

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Thanks, Barb...for that slice of AWFUL FICTION.

May I remind this about the FINAL CALL. The version I remember (from postings on Rich's forum),

was that "Lee used a pay phone in a washateria across the street from his Beckley rooming house,

and the time was about midnight". I remember this specifically, because it sent Dallas researchers

on a search for the laundromat in Oak Cliff.

I did not see any mention of the coin laundry on Beckley. Has she abandoned that?

Jack

Ahhh, yes, the laundromat figured prominently before. I don't see any mention of it in the section that deals with her phone calls from Oswald after he returned to Dallas and was living at the Beckley rooming house in this new book. Do you think it could be because of the exchanges we had on this in the Exile thread last March? :-)

Here is a link:

Exile thread re Oswald calling J from the washateria

Scroll down to post #285 ... it contains two of Judyth's responses to you about this .... as well as my reply to you citing the documents where the janitor of said laundromat had been interviewed by the FBI. Here is the info I posted at that time:

From post #285,Exile thread, March 2010:

QUOTE

Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:

CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.

Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)

CE3000 can be seen here:

CE3000

CE3001 can be seen here:

CE3001

CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.

CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:

CE3009

Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.

The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.

Bests,

Barb :-)

END QUOTE

CE3009 runs like 9 pages, info from Johnson is on the fourth page.

With that info from Johnson, who was there, the all night laundromat pay phone claim seemed to have been ... uh ... all washed up, eh?

Bests,

Barb :-)

Thanks for the source of the information about the laundromat. "Everything" seems to have a source, this one very obscure.

Jack

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I would suggest that, while it may be helpful to ask yourself all the questions posed by Michael Hogan, it would be much more helpful just to read the book first. What are the attackers so afraid of? It's as though people can't make an objective decision on their own. Read, compare and think for yourselves.

3) Jim Fetzer and Dean Hartwell, two of Judyth Baker's most ardent and constant supporters, were the first respondents on this new thread. They voiced

some of the reasons they support Judyth's story. By and large, they seem to be the same reasons given previously. I would like to hear them explain

in more detail how they believe Judyth's new book is a game changer (or mind changer for that matter) as it pertains to her alleged love affair with

Lee Oswald. I have read their Amazon reviews of Me & Lee.

Hi Michael,

The book confirmed my belief in Judyth's story so I can't say it changed my mind. I am impressed with it's internal consistency. Judyth recounts her life in a manner I would expect one who is recalling their past. She remembers people who made an impression on her, she talks of how she felt when events took place and she discusses places she went.

I especially felt confirmation of her story when I connected her recollections to other facets of the JFK tragedy. She quotes Oswald as speaking favorably of the President and as being ardently anti-Castro. She explains his route to Mexico and confirms his trip there in a way rarely described before and yet not contradictory to facts. She also explains that Oswald could drive and had a TX driver's license, which is also well supported.

Michael, like all of us, you have read or will read this book through your own prism of how you perceive Judyth's credibility. Not a problem. I am interested in your thoughts on the book.

Dean,

I know you are a staunch supporter of Judyth Baker and her story. And I am not out to pick a fight. But as I'm sure you are well aware by now, I don't believe her story is anything but fiction.

So therefor it would be interesting to know, having in mind what you are saying above, how you've reached your conclusion? In this thread alone - and especially in the "exile thread - many things have been pointed out as incorrect/changed or all together removed from her current version.

Does these changes mean anything to you when evaluating what she now says? You don't find these never ending changes to have at all a negative effect on JVBs credibility? Or, as another example, the way she told the "political asylum" story before I told the correct version does nothing to her credibility?

Or if you, for instance, would comment on the subjects Barb has shown in this thread I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Glenn V.

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Dean,

I know you are a staunch supporter of Judyth Baker and her story. And I am not out to pick a fight. But as I'm sure you are well aware by now, I don't believe her story is anything but fiction.

So therefor it would be interesting to know, having in mind what you are saying above, how you've reached your conclusion? In this thread alone - and especially in the "exile thread - many things have been pointed out as incorrect/changed or all together removed from her current version.

Does these changes mean anything to you when evaluating what she now says? You don't find these never ending changes to have at all a negative effect on JVBs credibility? Or, as another example, the way she told the "political asylum" story before I told the correct version does nothing to her credibility?

Or if you, for instance, would comment on the subjects Barb has shown in this thread I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Glenn V.

Glenn,

I will take you at your word that you are not trying to pick a fight.

I have answered as to why I believe Judyth before, such as when I wrote my essay “Why I Believe Judyth Vary Baker” and my recent review of Me and Lee. Both of these writings and my thoughts on the debate on the Education Forum thread are here:

http://deanhartwell.weebly.com/1/category/judyth%20baker/1.html

I acknowledge that many people have written on threads here and in other places reasons why they do not believe her. I do not feel the need to respond every time someone says something with which I disagree. None of the negative statements that I have read have convinced me that Judyth has deliberately misstated the truth as to her experiences.

If I thought she was lying, I would follow some other subject. I do not understand why you and others continue to call her work “fiction” and insinuate that she is lying. It seems that you have stated your case and I can respect though not agree with it.

Dean

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Dean,

I know you are a staunch supporter of Judyth Baker and her story. And I am not out to pick a fight. But as I'm sure you are well aware by now, I don't believe her story is anything but fiction.

So therefor it would be interesting to know, having in mind what you are saying above, how you've reached your conclusion? In this thread alone - and especially in the "exile thread - many things have been pointed out as incorrect/changed or all together removed from her current version.

Does these changes mean anything to you when evaluating what she now says? You don't find these never ending changes to have at all a negative effect on JVBs credibility? Or, as another example, the way she told the "political asylum" story before I told the correct version does nothing to her credibility?

Or if you, for instance, would comment on the subjects Barb has shown in this thread I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Glenn V.

Glenn,

I will take you at your word that you are not trying to pick a fight.

I have answered as to why I believe Judyth before, such as when I wrote my essay "Why I Believe Judyth Vary Baker" and my recent review of Me and Lee. Both of these writings and my thoughts on the debate on the Education Forum thread are here:

http://deanhartwell....%20baker/1.html

I acknowledge that many people have written on threads here and in other places reasons why they do not believe her. I do not feel the need to respond every time someone says something with which I disagree. None of the negative statements that I have read have convinced me that Judyth has deliberately misstated the truth as to her experiences.

If I thought she was lying, I would follow some other subject. I do not understand why you and others continue to call her work "fiction" and insinuate that she is lying. It seems that you have stated your case and I can respect though not agree with it.

Dean

Dean; May i ask you a question, please, How many years ago did you begin to follow Judyth's work on the web,,....thank you b.

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Thanks for the source of the information about the laundromat. "Everything" seems to have a source, this one very obscure.

Jack

Here's another scenario, and another rather obscure event. Does this look like one of those building block sources to you?

In Judyth's 2006 book, LEE HARVEY OSWALD, The True Story of the Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy By His Lover, Volume 1, pages 72-73, Judyth writes about going with Oswald to the Town & Country Motel at the behest of his Uncle Dutz on April 27th. She and Oswald had just met the previous day. She says they sat at a table and talked quietly, writing about it but not giving much in the way of actual quoted conversation. Oswald was to talk to the manager, no name given. When a waiter came with menus and water, Oswald just shook his head no, he just needed to speak to the manager. Judyth noted the place was, "nearly deserted." Then O saw the manager coming to their table and told J to be very quiet. She writes:

QUOTE

"A middle-aged man who looked Italian or Greek came over to our table and sat down with us. I took Lee's admonition seriously, and kept my eyes cast down. There was no doubt that the man who sat with us was somehow very important, and he knew it. After some small talk that made little sense to me, the manager passed a wad of money under the table to Lee. There was a twenty-dollar bill on top. I could see the exchange because my eyes were cast down. The two men kept talking the entire time with not a word directed to me."

END QUOTE

After the encounter, she writes, "I was surprised when Lee told me we would have to go leave right away. I hadn't had breakfast yet, and I was not sure I could hold out until we met David Ferrie. I was famished."

In her current book, Me & Lee, 2010, pages 134-137, Judyth writes essentially this same overall scenario. Some minor situational differences, but essentially the same, again on April 27th ... except this time, she includes quoted back and forth dialogue between herself and Oswald in addition to just relating some of what they talked about. The manager, whom he needs to speak to, now has a name: "Mr. P." After the encounter, and the manager had walked away, Judyth writes:

QUOTE

"Let's go, " Lee said, not even bothering to look at the money he thrust into his pocket.

"We're not going to eat anything?" I asked anxiously. I was famished and it would be hours before our lunch with Dr. David Ferrie.

"I wouldn't feed my dog here," Lee growled.

END QUOTE

The comments about not eating there, especially stressed in her more recent book, struck me as a bit odd for some reason. so I did a little checking on the Sumner incident.

In July 1999, Howard Platzman was involved in a newsgroup discussion that involved the mafia and posted a chronology he had worked up. This is the entry of interest in that chronology:

QUOTE

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

From: ho...@aol.com (Howpl)

Date: 1999/07/15

Subject: Mafia Chronology Vanishes Again - Repost

[....................]

When he saw Oswald's picture on TV, Gene Sumner called the FBI to report

that in April 1963, he saw Joe Poretto, a Marcello lieutenant, pass a wad of bills to Oswald or a look-alike in the Town and Country restaurant, managed by Tony Marcello and considered his brother's headquarters.

END QUOTE

Howard's chronology says the the manager was Tony Marcello, and no date is given for the incident.

Platzman mafia chronology includes sumner incident mention

AJ Weberman included more information about the Sumner incident on his website:

QUOTE

GENE SUMNER

After the assassination of John F. Kennedy, OSWALD was erroneously reported to have received money directly from the MARCELLO crime family on April 22, 1963. Gene Sumner, (born June 24, 1898; died August 7, 1989), a Darien, Georgia, businessman, told his brother-in-law, Police Lieutenant Johnny Harris of the Midcounty (phonetic) Police Department, that around April 14, 1963, he left Darien, Georgia, and traveled to New Orleans, Louisiana with business acquaintance Ernest Insalmo. In New Orleans, Ernest Insalmo met with some of his associates in the mafia-controlled construction and seafood business (Paul and Salvadore Pizza and Benny Capeana); he then took Gene Sumner to the MARCELLO-owned Town and Country Restaurant, a known hangout for the hoodlum element. Gene Sumner was introduced to the owner of the restaurant, Joseph Albert Poretto, and given a table in the main dining room, where there were only two other couples. Joseph Albert Poretto (born March 21, 1906; died April 1983) was incarcerated in 1951 for refusing to testify before the Kefauver Senate Committee studying organized crime. CARLOS MARCELLO was tried for that same offense. [FBI 62-9-33-411, 73-10184-11, 92-8100-1 1.15.65 - serials 2 and 3 w/h, arrest rec. #1799932] Gene Sumner claimed he then observed a young couple enter the dining room, and sit at a table about two tables away from his. He claimed he observed Joseph Albert Poretto remove a wad of bills from his pocket and pass the money under the table to the man who just entered. A few minutes later, the couple left without ordering any food or drinks. On December 2, 1963, the FBI showed Gene Sumner pictures of OSWALD; he believed OSWALD was the same man he had seen in the Town and Country Restaurant.

END QUOTE

Here, Poretto is the owner ... and Judyth wrote that Oswald was to talk with "Mr. P."

IF it had been Oswald (it was decided it had been a case of mistaken identity) ... could the woman had been Judyth?

Weberman included one more bit of info ... the sentence following the last one I quoted above, after Sumner's comment about the pics of Oswald he was shown, was this:

QUOTE

He [sumner - bj] described the woman who accompanied OSWALD as a blonde, white, female, 22 to 26 years of age, flashy dresser.

END QUOTE

The Sumner incident also happened on April 22 ... not April 27. Neither Oswald nor Judyth were in New Orleans yet. But please note, I have not seen the actual FBI report.

weberman site includes SUMNER incident

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Since I first encountered Judyth Baker’s story in about 2000, I have said that I would refrain from stating any final conclusions until I read her definitive account. (I have stated all along, however, that extraordinary allegations require extraordinary proof, and I have indicated a certain degree of skepticism as to whether or not that standard was being met.) I have now read her official book, “Me and Lee: How I Came to Know, Love and Lose Lee Harvey Oswald,” her unofficial book “Lee Harvey Oswald: The True Story of the Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy By His Lover,” TMWKK “The Love Affair” and other Baker videos, Edward Haslam’s “Dr. Mary’s Monkey,” as well as many e-mails from Baker and her associates, numerous Baker posts from various forums on the Internet, and other materials posted on the Internet. The time has come to state my conclusions about her story. These are my conclusions, and they should not unduly influence those who may see things differently.

My conclusions are based on an unusually deep knowledge of David Ferrie; I began gathering information on Ferrie many years ago for my own knowledge base. This eventually led to obtaining virtually every available document about or related to Ferrie in government collections and from other sources, and to contacts with many people who knew Ferrie. This knowledge base has led me to help other researchers and authors and to speak about Ferrie at conferences. It finally occurred to me some years back to write it all up as a manuscript and share it with others. The manuscript is about ¾ written and although I have limited time to work on it, I hope to have it available in some form in the next couple of years. I have been called an expert on David Ferrie, but I see myself more as a specialist. (In fact, Baker or someone writing for her referred to me repeatedly as a “Ferrie expert.”) In any case, it is fair to say that I know more about Ferrie than most people, and I offer the following conclusions in that context:

It is my firm opinion that Judyth Baker did not know, associate with or work with David Ferrie. For this reason, it is my firm opinion that the portions of her book detailing her alleged association with Ferrie are not true. (And if the portions relating to such a central character are untrue, what are we to make of the rest of her story?)

It is my firm opinion that there is no credible evidence that David Ferrie had any sort of relationship with Dr. Mary S. Sherman or had a medical laboratory at his apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway. (“Dr. Mary’s Monkey” cannot be regarded as corroborative evidence, as Haslam fails to provide evidence to support either assertion.)

I expect to be attacked for saying these things, but these are my conclusions based on years of research. Others may feel differently.

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Since I first encountered Judyth Baker’s story in about 2000, I have said that I would refrain from stating any final conclusions until I read her definitive account. (I have stated all along, however, that extraordinary allegations require extraordinary proof, and I have indicated a certain degree of skepticism as to whether or not that standard was being met.) I have now read her official book, “Me and Lee: How I Came to Know, Love and Lose Lee Harvey Oswald,” her unofficial book “Lee Harvey Oswald: The True Story of the Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy By His Lover,” TMWKK “The Love Affair” and other Baker videos, Edward Haslam’s “Dr. Mary’s Monkey,” as well as many e-mails from Baker and her associates, numerous Baker posts from various forums on the Internet, and other materials posted on the Internet. The time has come to state my conclusions about her story. These are my conclusions, and they should not unduly influence those who may see things differently.

My conclusions are based on an unusually deep knowledge of David Ferrie; I began gathering information on Ferrie many years ago for my own knowledge base. This eventually led to obtaining virtually every available document about or related to Ferrie in government collections and from other sources, and to contacts with many people who knew Ferrie. This knowledge base has led me to help other researchers and authors and to speak about Ferrie at conferences. It finally occurred to me some years back to write it all up as a manuscript and share it with others. The manuscript is about ¾ written and although I have limited time to work on it, I hope to have it available in some form in the next couple of years. I have been called an expert on David Ferrie, but I see myself more as a specialist. (In fact, Baker or someone writing for her referred to me repeatedly as a “Ferrie expert.”) In any case, it is fair to say that I know more about Ferrie than most people, and I offer the following conclusions in that context:

It is my firm opinion that Judyth Baker did not know, associate with or work with David Ferrie. For this reason, it is my firm opinion that the portions of her book detailing her alleged association with Ferrie are not true. (And if the portions relating to such a central character are untrue, what are we to make of the rest of her story?)

It is my firm opinion that there is no credible evidence that David Ferrie had any sort of relationship with Dr. Mary S. Sherman or had a medical laboratory at his apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway. (“Dr. Mary’s Monkey” cannot be regarded as corroborative evidence, as Haslam fails to provide evidence to support either assertion.)

I expect to be attacked for saying these things, but these are my conclusions based on years of research. Others may feel differently.

Thanks for your firm conclusion. I believe you are on target.

Jack

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It is my firm opinion that there is no credible evidence that David Ferrie had any sort of relationship with Dr. Mary S. Sherman.

Thank you Mr. Roy.

Judith Baker is a waste of time, and so are all the Garrison acolytes.

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It is my firm opinion that there is no credible evidence that David Ferrie had any sort of relationship with Dr. Mary S. Sherman or had a medical laboratory at his apartment at 3330 Louisiana Avenue Parkway. (“Dr. Mary’s Monkey” cannot be regarded as corroborative evidence, as Haslam fails to provide evidence to support either assertion.)

I expect to be attacked for saying these things, but these are my conclusions based on years of research. Others may feel differently.

With all due respect, you are entitled to your opinion, and there is no reason for you to be 'attacked' for it.

At the same time, it is up to everyone else to decide what to think about what you have to say. You position yourself as a Ferrie expert, which raises the bar. You are also a researcher and were not present in 1963 in NOLA when these events took place.

It is up to the reader to decide whether your blanket statements on Judyth not knowing Ferrie are credible, or whether perhaps the logic you invoke is analogous to that of the WC when they claimed that LHO did not know Ruby, or anyone else by means of refusing to walk through any door that might lead to conspiracy.

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