Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?

[Pat Speer]

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Len Colby]

Fetzer of course has things backwards photographic evidence discredits witness testimony not the other way round.

“Secret Service agent John Ready, who was on the right running board…began to respond but was called back by Emory Roberts”

Citation?

“the vehicles were in the wrong order”

Citation and more important relevence?

“the 112th Military Intelligence Unit was ordered to “stand down” rather than provide protection throughout the city”

The whole “stand down” story stinks perhaps Fetzer (or Jack) can cite any examples of the 112th or any other Army units or any other military units (other than the Color Guard) preforming “Protection for the President”? This would seem to be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act which forbids the use of the armed forces (other than Coast Guard and National Guard) “ from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The 112th was a counter-intel unit, why would they be involved in personal security?

I could not find any other mentions on the Net of there ever being people named Maximillian (w/ 1 or 2 Ls) Reich or Joel Cabaza in the US Army, odd that a Col. and Lt. Col. the CO and “his deputy” of an important unit wouldn’t show up anywhere.

[Ron Ecker]

I could not find any other mentions on the Net of there ever being people named Maximillian (w/ 1 or 2 Ls) Reich or Joel Cabaza in the US Army, odd that a Col. and Lt. Col. the CO and “his deputy” of an important unit wouldn’t show up anywhere.

The ARRB interviewed Col. Rudolph Reich, who told the ARRB that Prouty was "smoking something." A brief summary of the interview is in Larry Hancock's article "Mysteries of the 112th" (link to the pertinent page below). The article is based on material, including a transcript of the ARRB's entertaining interview of Prouty, on Larry's CD "Keys to the Conspiracy."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4273&relPageId=26

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

And, of course, in the process Pat Speer is ALSO disregarding the consistent and competent reports of the Parkland

physicians, as I have observed to him many times, not to mention the study of the descriptions of the wound to the

back of the head by Gary Aguilar, M.D., which appeared in MURDER. I don't know how long Pat thinks he can continue

to con the members of this forum with his selective use of evidence, but it has grown tiresome to me. He does not

even acknowledge the statement published in THE KENNEDY DETAIL (2010) which I accented by placing it in bold:

And slumped across the seat, President Kennedy lay unmoving, a bloody, gaping, fist-sized hole clearly visible

in the back of his head. (THE KENNEDY DETAIL, p. 217)

After all, if JFK has a fist-sized hole clearly visible in the back of his head, it follows that (1) the eyewitnesses were right,

(2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked, (4) various autopsy photographs were

also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays have been altered, precisely as we have found above. In fact, Clint Hill was far

from the only expert who described that wound as “fist-sized”. When I edited ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), I invited

Charles Crenshaw, M.D., to contribute a chapter and asked him to diagram the wounds as he had personally witnessed

them at Parkland Hospital, where he was the last physician to observe them before he closed JFK’s eyelids as he was being

wrapped in sheets and placed in the casket. Charles told me that this defect was the size of a baseball or else the size

of your fist when you double it up. Of course, their only advantage over Pat Speer is that they were actually there and

he was not. I cannot abide pseudo-scientific drivel from someone who poses as an expert but disregards the evidence.

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Here is a splendid and convincing demonstration that Len Colby knows nothing about the assassination of JFK. This

study is an exploration of the importance of a new book and new statements from members of the Secret Service that

have a profound impact upon our understanding of some of the most controversial aspects of the case. I guess it is

also going to showcase the ignorance and incompetence of a host of pseudo-experts on the death of JFK. Perhaps Ron

Ecker might want arrange a tutorial on points that have been well-understood by generations of earlier JFK students?

Fetzer of course has things backwards photographic evidence discredits witness testimony not the other way round.

“Secret Service agent John Ready, who was on the right running board…began to respond but was called back by Emory Roberts”

Citation?

“the vehicles were in the wrong order”

Citation and more important relevence?

“the 112th Military Intelligence Unit was ordered to “stand down” rather than provide protection throughout the city”

The whole “stand down” story stinks perhaps Fetzer (or Jack) can cite any examples of the 112th or any other Army units or any other military units (other than the Color Guard) preforming “Protection for the President”? This would seem to be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act which forbids the use of the armed forces (other than Coast Guard and National Guard) “ from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The 112th was a counter-intel unit, why would they be involved in personal security?

I could not find any other mentions on the Net of there ever being people named Maximillian (w/ 1 or 2 Ls) Reich or Joel Cabaza in the US Army, odd that a Col. and Lt. Col. the CO and “his deputy” of an important unit wouldn’t show up anywhere.

[Ron Ecker]

Perhaps Ron

Ecker might want arrange a tutorial on points that have been well-understood by generations of earlier JFK students?

That sounds good, Jim, if the tutorial presents established facts, and not things that are simply considered well understood by you and others because Fletcher Prouty said it.

Since "Oswald did it" has been "well-understood by generations" of lone nutters, because the WC said it, by your reasoning it must be true.

[Pat Speer]

And, of course, in the process Pat Speer is ALSO disregarding the consistent and competent reports of the Parkland

physicians, as I have observed to him many times, not to mention the study of the descriptions of the wound to the

back of the head by Gary Aguilar, M.D., which appeared in MURDER. I don't know how long Pat thinks he can continue

to con the members of this forum with his selective use of evidence, but it has grown tiresome to me. He does not

even acknowledge the statement published in THE KENNEDY DETAIL (2010) which I accented by placing it in bold:

And slumped across the seat, President Kennedy lay unmoving, a bloody, gaping, fist-sized hole clearly visible

in the back of his head. (THE KENNEDY DETAIL, p. 217)

After all, if JFK has a fist-sized hole clearly visible in the back of his head, it follows that (1) the eyewitnesses were right,

(2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked, (4) various autopsy photographs were

also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays have been altered, precisely as we have found above. In fact, Clint Hill was far

from the only expert who described that wound as “fist-sized”. When I edited ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), I invited

Charles Crenshaw, M.D., to contribute a chapter and asked him to diagram the wounds as he had personally witnessed

them at Parkland Hospital, where he was the last physician to observe them before he closed JFK’s eyelids as he was being

wrapped in sheets and placed in the casket. Charles told me that this defect was the size of a baseball or else the size

of your fist when you double it up. Of course, their only advantage over Pat Speer is that they were actually there and

he was not. I cannot abide pseudo-scientific drivel from someone who poses as an expert but disregards the evidence.

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Just answer the question, Jim. Was Hill telling the truth when he claimed the "palm-sized" wound was above the ear? A wound "above the ear" even if it is shaded toward the back of the head, as Hill claims, is still far closer to the wound in the autopsy photos than the occipital wound at and below the level of the ear you'd have us believe he was describing. So, was he telling the truth? Or are you citing his statements as "proof" when they are at odds with the Zapruder film, even though you don't find his other statements credible?

As far as someone "conning" someone, I'm sorry but you'll have to look in a mirror to find the person trying to "con" you. READ the eyewitness statements. DO NOT cherry-pick. SEE that the witnesses were describing ONE wound--NOT the exit for an entrance wound on the front of the head. SEE that the vast majority of them placed this wound on the right side toward the back, at or above the level of the ear. UNDERSTAND that this means the occipital bone was not blown out and that the Harper fragment was NOT occipital bone. UNDERSTAND that those persisting in the myth the Harper fragment was occipital bone are the ones whose studies and "research" are at odds with the statements of the witnesses, and not me.

P.S. I'm still waiting for your acknowledgment that Mantik placed the metal debris in the wrong place on his exhibit, and then incorrectly used it discredit Angel. YOUR credibility on the medical evidence is ZERO, as far as I can see, until you do so.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Pat,

Please do me a favour. Can you post some of these recent comments from Hill in which he doesn't mention the wound extended into the rear of the head? You said he "Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear" which must mean that he sometimes does not.

The thing is, I agree with you that the X-rays are genuine and that the majority of witnesses placed the wound a little too far back but in the past have felt that you were manipulating what the witnesses said in order to prove your point and I hate it when people try to put their own spin on testimony which should stand or fall on its own. I'm willing to apologize and admit I was wrong, that I jumped the gun somewhat, but I'd be appreciative if you could back up what you're saying here.

Martin, I have transcribed the relevant sections of Hill's recent statements, and have been adding them to chapter 5b of my website.

(Interview conducted for the National Geographic Channel program Inside the Secret Service, first broadcast 10-24-04. Note that this is, in fact, a compilation of two different edits of the interview as found on Youtube ) "We traveled along this open area which was on my left and then made a left turn, but it wasn't a 90 degree left turn, it was like a 120 degree left turn. The open area was still on my left, and shortly after we got into that turn and started on that street, I heard a sound--which I wasn't sure what it was--whether it was a gunshot or a firecracker. I turned to see what was happening, and as I did I saw President Kennedy grab at his throat and lurch forward. I knew something was wrong. Before I could get to the presidential limousine, another shot had been fired and hit President Kennedy in the head. About that time I reached the back of the presidential limousine and tried to get on. I was trying to get my foot up on the back of the car. And I slipped. I had to run three or four more steps before I could get up. By that time Mrs. Kennedy had come out onto the trunk. It appeared to me she was searching for something, trying to retrieve something. But I got up on the back of the car and placed her back in the seat. The President at that time had slumped down into her lap. And I could see the back of his head, And there was a gaping hole above his right ear about the size of my palm. And there was white brain matter and red blood throughout the entire car."

(Foreword written by Hill for The Kennedy Detail, 2010) "I would be very pleased if the results of the Warren Commission and its investigation would be accepted as the final word." (Interview on Fox News Network promoting the release of The Kennedy Detail, 11-12-10) "I heard the first shot, saw the President grab his throat, and lurch left. I knew something was wrong so I ran out to the car. I tried to get up on the trunk. The driver accelerated. I slipped. When I gained my footing, I got up on the trunk of the car. About that time, Mrs. Kennedy started up on the rear of the trunk. She was trying to retrieve something that came off the President's head. She didn't know I was there. I helped her get back in the back seat and the President fell to the left in her lap." (When asked what he believes happened) "What happened was a single shooter fired three shots from an elevated position to the rear of the motorcade. All three shots hit what they were aimed at. The first one hit President Kennedy. The second one hit Governor Connally. The third one hit President Kennedy in the head. That's the fact. The rest of it is just theory. Unlike fact." (Interview on Free Johnny Dare radio program on 98.9 The Rock in Kansas City, 11-12-10) (When asked what happened after he saw the president react to the first shot) "Well, I tried to get there as quick as I could. I came off the follow-up car, ran to the presidential vehicle. I could not hear the second shot 'cause I was running. By the time I got close the third shot had hit the president in the head. Some material came off the right rear. Mrs. Kennedy came out of her seat and onto the trunk to try to retrieve that material. I slipped, I tried to regain my position. I got up on the trunk. She did not know I was there. And I grabbed her, and put her back in the seat when the president fell to his left onto her lap." (When asked what he saw when he climbed up onto the trunk and looked at the president) "I saw that there was a portion of his skull removed from the upper rear above the right ear about the size of my palm, and brain material and blood was all over the back of the car including myself." (When asked if the president was still breathing when they got to the hospital) "Well, I couldn't tell if that was the case. His eyes were fixed, and a hole was in the upper right portion of his head. So it appeared that he was fatally wounded." (London Daily Mail Online article stupidly entitled "What have they done?': Jackie's words as JFK was shot are revealed by secret service agent who breaks silence after almost 50 years", 11-14-10) "‘I heard the first shot, saw the president grab his throat, lurch left and I knew something was wrong," he recalled, his voice halting. "When I got to the presidential vehicle, just as I approached it, a third shot rang out, hitting the president in the head, just above the right ear, and left a hole about the size of my palm. There were blood and brains spewed about over myself and the car. I helped Mrs Kennedy get in the back seat and the President fell into her lap. I was quite sure it was a fatal wound. The First Lady was in shock. She was doing the best she could, she was covered in blood." On the way to Parkland Hospital, where the president would be certified dead there was little conversation. But, according to Mr. Hill, Mrs Kennedy "said something about, 'Oh, Jack, what have they done? What have they done?'"

(11-20-10 interview of Hill and Gerald Blaine by Gary Mack at the Sixth Floor Museum, broadcast on CSPAN2, 12-12-10) (When Mack offers "You heard three shots.") "The three shots all came from the same location." (When Mack asks if the three shots were evenly spaced) "I didn't hear the second shot, so I only heard two shots. The first shot came from my right rear. And I was looking to the left of the grassy area on the left hand side of Elm Street when I heard the shot. My vision took me to the right toward that shot. In so doing my eyes went across the back of the President's car. I saw him grab at his throat and he started to lurch to his left. He didn't move too far but he was trying to go to his left. I knew something was wrong. So I jumped off the car and started running to the President's car, trying to get there in time to get on top and cover--what we try to do is cover and evacuate. I was trying to get there to cover up so nobody would impart further damage to the President or Mrs. Kennedy. About the time I got to the car, just before I got there, the third shot--that I heard, and I felt--because it hit the President in the head just above the right ear, right up in here (he places his hand just above his right ear, with some of his fingers to the back of the his ear), and blood and brain matter were spewing all over the place, including on me. About that time Mrs. Kennedy came out of her seat out onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had come off the President's head and went to the right rear. I slipped at first while trying to get onto the car 'cause Bill Greer the driver accelerated the car. I gained my footing again, got up on the car, and helped her get back in the seat. When I did that the President fell over to his left onto her lap and I could see the upper right portion of his head (he again places his hand above his right ear, only this time he places it directly above the ear, about an inch forward of where he'd placed it only 30 seconds before) had a large hole about the size of my palm. It looked like somebody had taken a scoop and removed brain matter and just thrown it around the car--blood and brain matter and bone particles all around the car. His eyes were fixed. I was quite sure it was a fatal wound." (When Mack points out to him that the scenario Hill has been pushing in his recent interviews entails three shots and three hits) "That is correct." (When Mack points out that this puts Hill at odds with the conclusions of the Warren Commission) "I recognize that. But the two of us believe that the second shot hit Governor Connally. The other person who said that, Nellie Connally, was sitting right beside him when he was hit. So I think I'm in pretty good company in believing that the second shot hit the Governor and that the third shot was the fatal wound to the President."

(Article by Hill in the New York Times, 11-22-10) "We were traveling through Dallas en route to the Trade Mart, where the president was to give a lunchtime speech, when I heard an explosive noise from my right rear. As I turned toward the sound, I scanned the presidential limousine and saw the president grab at his throat and lurch to the left. I jumped off the running board and ran toward his car. I was so focused on getting to the president and Mrs. Kennedy to provide them cover that I didn’t hear the second shot. I was just feet away when I heard and felt the effects of a third shot. It hit the president in the upper right rear of his head, and blood was everywhere. Once in the back seat, I threw myself on top of the president and first lady so that if another shot came, it would hit me instead." (Interview with Bob Barnard on WTTG, Washington D.C.'s channel Fox 5, and subsequently posted on the website promoting The Kennedy Detail, 11-22-10) "I was scanning the left side of the street in Dealey Plaza, and I heard an explosive noise from my right rear. And so I scanned from my left to my right going toward that noise. When I did so I scanned across the back of the car. What I saw was the president grab at his throat, and lurch to his left. And I knew something was wrong. So I jumped from the car and ran, ran toward the presidential vehicle. Now there was another shot, the second shot, I did not hear that because I was running. Just before I got to the car there was a third shot, and it hit the president in the head, causing an explosion to the upper right of his head, and brain material and blood spattered all about, including on myself. Mrs. Kennedy at that had come out on the trunk. She was apparently trying to retrieve something that had come off the president's head, and had gone to the right rear. She didn't know I was there. And so I grabbed her as best I could and put her into the back seat. And as I did that the president fell to his left onto her lap, with his right side of his head exposed. I could see his eyes, they was fixed, with a hole in his head about the size of my palm above his right ear." (Interview on C-Span program Q & A, 11-28-10) (Hill's comments while watching the Zapruder film) "When the third shot hit--which is right about now--I was just about to get onto the car. And I slipped. Then I regained my step. Then I got up on the car. Mrs. Kennedy at that time was coming out onto the trunk. She was coming out on the trunk to try to retrieve something that came off the President's head that went off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. When I got up on the trunk, I pushed her as best I could back into the rear seat. When I did that, the President fell down into her lap with the right side of his head up, exposed. I could see that his eyes were fixed and that there was a large hole above the right ear--just to the rear--above the right ear, about the size of my palm. That part of the skull was missing and there was brain matter--it looked like somebody'd taken an ice cream scoop and gone in there and removed a whole portion of the brain and thrown it around the back of the car. The back of the car and she were covered in blood and brain."

(BBC 4 audio interview published online, 12-1-10) "Well, we were turning left onto Elm Street in Dallas. And as we progressed down Elm Street I heard a sudden explosive noise from the right rear of the motorcade. And so my vision changed from looking left to looking toward that sound, which took my vision across the back of the presidential vehicle. And when I did that I saw the president grab at his throat and lurch to his left. And I knew something was wrong. And so I jumped from the follow-up car which was immediately behind the presidential vehicle and ran toward the presidential vehicle, attempting to get there to throw my body up on top of the car to form a shield between the president and Mrs. Kennedy and whoever was shooting at them." (When asked how many shots he heard) "I only heard two because while I was running apparently the second shot was fired. The third shot which I heard and felt because I was near the presidential vehicle when that happened hit the president in the head--upper right rear of the right ear--and it spewed blood matter, brain matter, and bone fragments out over the car and myself. And then I was getting up on the back of the car and Mrs. Kennedy was trying to come off out on the trunk of the car to retrieve something that had come off the president's head to the right rear. She did not know I was there. I pushed her back into the seat. And then the president's body fell to its left onto her lap." (When asked if at that time he knew Kennedy was dead) "Well, his right side of his face was up. I could see his eyes were fixed, that there was a hole in his skull above his right ear to the rear about the size of my palm. And I was quite sure that the shot had been fatal." (When asked if he felt the shots had come from the same place) "Yes I believe they all came from an elevated position to our right rear of the motorcade--it turned out to be the Texas School Book Depository--that they were all fired by the same rifle, and that they were all fired by one individual." (Interview in Discovery Channel program The Kennedy Detail, first broadcast 12-2-10) "The driver had to slow the car considerably in order to make the turn. Instead of going the 10-12 miles an hour we had been going he had to cut the speed at least in half. About that time, as I was scanning the left area from Elm Street, there was a large explosive noise to my right rear. I thought it was a fire cracker. My eyes passed over the back of the presidential car. And I saw the President grab at his throat and lurch slightly to his left. And I knew something was wrong. (Moments later in the program) Just before I got to the presidential vehicle I heard another large sound from the right rear. And then I heard the sound of an impact like a bullet hitting something hollow. Now Mrs. Kennedy was out on top of the trunk of the car trying to retrieve something she'd seen come off the President's head. I was trying to get up on the car. The driver all of a sudden accelerated. I grabbed the handle, pulled myself up, grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President slumped over into her lap. I looked down and realized how severe the President had been hit. Above the right ear, there was an area about the size of the palm of my hand that was gone. The skull was gone. It looked like an ice cream scoop had gone in and removed all the brain in that area. There was brain matter, skull, and blood throughout the entire car...(Later in the interview) On the way to Parkland, I had seen Governor Connally's chest covered in blood. That was the first that I realized that he'd also been shot." (12-3-10 appearance at Warwick's Bookstore, New York City, posted on Youtube) "We had just started to straighten out the vehicle as as we started down Elm Street toward the Stemmons Freeway. At that point, I was scanning to the left, which was a grassy area. I heard an explosive noise to the right rear of the motorcade to my right ear. My eyes took me to the right rear toward that sound. In so doing, I had to scan across the presidential vehicle. When I did that I saw the President grab at his throat and move to his left, and I knew something was wrong. So I jumped from the follow-up car and I ran toward the presidential vehicle. My intent was to get on top of the presidential vehicle and place myself between the President and Mrs. Kennedy and whoever was shooting at them. I ran, and apparently, in that time I ran there was a second shot. I did not hear it. As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left. His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . ." (When later asked, by someone claiming to have been given permission to inspect the autopsy photos in 1979, about his description of a wound on the right rear of the head) "Above the right ear. (At this point he touches his head above his right ear and slides his hand back behind his ear) It's hard for me to describe so that you can understand it." (He turns his back to the audience. The palm of his hand covers his ear and his fingers stretch from his ear to the crown of his head.) "Right in here. That portion of the skull was gone. About the size of this..." (He shows the audience his palm.) "My palm. It was an entry wound from the rear and it caused the entire area of that skull to lift up."

Edited January 13, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

It's really very simple, Pat. In addition to the massive blow-out to the back of the head, there was a skull

flap, which is included in the drawing and photograph from the HSCA included in my article. I invited

David Mantik to respond to your arguments, which he regarded as a complicated task, but he has told

me he is working on it. The fact of the matter is that you have demonstrated complete disregard for

the testimony of the eyewitnesses, including Clint Hill, the Parkland physicians, and Gary Aguilar's

study, all of which converge in agreement about the "fist sized hole" at the back of his head. And I

am sure this is not the first time I have pointed out that Thomas Evan Robinson, the mortician, also

described the blow-out to the back of the head PLUS the skull flap at the side, which you can find in

Joe West's notes about their interview. I included all this in "Dealey Plaza Revisited: What Happened

to JFK?", which is archived at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/UNDchapter30.pdf Why don't you take some

time out and explain to the world why you discount the most important testimony from the witnesses,

including Clint Hill, the Parkland physicians, the mortician, and the study by Gary Aguilar in order to

claim support for your utterly indefensible position? It's about time you ceased practicing deceit and

deception about the medical evidence, Pat. Your are pretending this mass of evidence does not exist,

an elementary fallacy I spent 35 years teaching undergraduates to avoid. No one can take you seriously.

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Pat,

Please do me a favour. Can you post some of these recent comments from Hill in which he doesn't mention the wound extended into the rear of the head? You said he "Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear" which must mean that he sometimes does not.

The thing is, I agree with you that the X-rays are genuine and that the majority of witnesses placed the wound a little too far back but in the past have felt that you were manipulating what the witnesses said in order to prove your point and I hate it when people try to put their own spin on testimony which should stand or fall on its own. I'm willing to apologize and admit I was wrong, that I jumped the gun somewhat, but I'd be appreciative if you could back up what you're saying here.

Martin, I have transcribed the relevant sections of Hill's recent statements, and have been adding them to chapter 5b of my website.

(Interview conducted for the National Geographic Channel program Inside the Secret Service, first broadcast 10-24-04. Note that this is, in fact, a compilation of two different edits of the interview as found on Youtube ) "We traveled along this open area which was on my left and then made a left turn, but it wasn't a 90 degree left turn, it was like a 120 degree left turn. The open area was still on my left, and shortly after we got into that turn and started on that street, I heard a sound--which I wasn't sure what it was--whether it was a gunshot or a firecracker. I turned to see what was happening, and as I did I saw President Kennedy grab at his throat and lurch forward. I knew something was wrong. Before I could get to the presidential limousine, another shot had been fired and hit President Kennedy in the head. About that time I reached the back of the presidential limousine and tried to get on. I was trying to get my foot up on the back of the car. And I slipped. I had to run three or four more steps before I could get up. By that time Mrs. Kennedy had come out onto the trunk. It appeared to me she was searching for something, trying to retrieve something. But I got up on the back of the car and placed her back in the seat. The President at that time had slumped down into her lap. And I could see the back of his head, And there was a gaping hole above his right ear about the size of my palm. And there was white brain matter and red blood throughout the entire car."

(Foreword written by Hill for The Kennedy Detail, 2010) "I would be very pleased if the results of the Warren Commission and its investigation would be accepted as the final word." (Interview on Fox News Network promoting the release of The Kennedy Detail, 11-12-10) "I heard the first shot, saw the President grab his throat, and lurch left. I knew something was wrong so I ran out to the car. I tried to get up on the trunk. The driver accelerated. I slipped. When I gained my footing, I got up on the trunk of the car. About that time, Mrs. Kennedy started up on the rear of the trunk. She was trying to retrieve something that came off the President's head. She didn't know I was there. I helped her get back in the back seat and the President fell to the left in her lap." (When asked what he believes happened) "What happened was a single shooter fired three shots from an elevated position to the rear of the motorcade. All three shots hit what they were aimed at. The first one hit President Kennedy. The second one hit Governor Connally. The third one hit President Kennedy in the head. That's the fact. The rest of it is just theory. Unlike fact." (Interview on Free Johnny Dare radio program on 98.9 The Rock in Kansas City, 11-12-10) (When asked what happened after he saw the president react to the first shot) "Well, I tried to get there as quick as I could. I came off the follow-up car, ran to the presidential vehicle. I could not hear the second shot 'cause I was running. By the time I got close the third shot had hit the president in the head. Some material came off the right rear. Mrs. Kennedy came out of her seat and onto the trunk to try to retrieve that material. I slipped, I tried to regain my position. I got up on the trunk. She did not know I was there. And I grabbed her, and put her back in the seat when the president fell to his left onto her lap." (When asked what he saw when he climbed up onto the trunk and looked at the president) "I saw that there was a portion of his skull removed from the upper rear above the right ear about the size of my palm, and brain material and blood was all over the back of the car including myself." (When asked if the president was still breathing when they got to the hospital) "Well, I couldn't tell if that was the case. His eyes were fixed, and a hole was in the upper right portion of his head. So it appeared that he was fatally wounded." (London Daily Mail Online article stupidly entitled "What have they done?': Jackie's words as JFK was shot are revealed by secret service agent who breaks silence after almost 50 years", 11-14-10) "‘I heard the first shot, saw the president grab his throat, lurch left and I knew something was wrong," he recalled, his voice halting. "When I got to the presidential vehicle, just as I approached it, a third shot rang out, hitting the president in the head, just above the right ear, and left a hole about the size of my palm. There were blood and brains spewed about over myself and the car. I helped Mrs Kennedy get in the back seat and the President fell into her lap. I was quite sure it was a fatal wound. The First Lady was in shock. She was doing the best she could, she was covered in blood." On the way to Parkland Hospital, where the president would be certified dead there was little conversation. But, according to Mr. Hill, Mrs Kennedy "said something about, 'Oh, Jack, what have they done? What have they done?'"

(11-20-10 interview of Hill and Gerald Blaine by Gary Mack at the Sixth Floor Museum, broadcast on CSPAN2, 12-12-10) (When Mack offers "You heard three shots.") "The three shots all came from the same location." (When Mack asks if the three shots were evenly spaced) "I didn't hear the second shot, so I only heard two shots. The first shot came from my right rear. And I was looking to the left of the grassy area on the left hand side of Elm Street when I heard the shot. My vision took me to the right toward that shot. In so doing my eyes went across the back of the President's car. I saw him grab at his throat and he started to lurch to his left. He didn't move too far but he was trying to go to his left. I knew something was wrong. So I jumped off the car and started running to the President's car, trying to get there in time to get on top and cover--what we try to do is cover and evacuate. I was trying to get there to cover up so nobody would impart further damage to the President or Mrs. Kennedy. About the time I got to the car, just before I got there, the third shot--that I heard, and I felt--because it hit the President in the head just above the right ear, right up in here (he places his hand just above his right ear, with some of his fingers to the back of the his ear), and blood and brain matter were spewing all over the place, including on me. About that time Mrs. Kennedy came out of her seat out onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had come off the President's head and went to the right rear. I slipped at first while trying to get onto the car 'cause Bill Greer the driver accelerated the car. I gained my footing again, got up on the car, and helped her get back in the seat. When I did that the President fell over to his left onto her lap and I could see the upper right portion of his head (he again places his hand above his right ear, only this time he places it directly above the ear, about an inch forward of where he'd placed it only 30 seconds before) had a large hole about the size of my palm. It looked like somebody had taken a scoop and removed brain matter and just thrown it around the car--blood and brain matter and bone particles all around the car. His eyes were fixed. I was quite sure it was a fatal wound." (When Mack points out to him that the scenario Hill has been pushing in his recent interviews entails three shots and three hits) "That is correct." (When Mack points out that this puts Hill at odds with the conclusions of the Warren Commission) "I recognize that. But the two of us believe that the second shot hit Governor Connally. The other person who said that, Nellie Connally, was sitting right beside him when he was hit. So I think I'm in pretty good company in believing that the second shot hit the Governor and that the third shot was the fatal wound to the President."

(Article by Hill in the New York Times, 11-22-10) "We were traveling through Dallas en route to the Trade Mart, where the president was to give a lunchtime speech, when I heard an explosive noise from my right rear. As I turned toward the sound, I scanned the presidential limousine and saw the president grab at his throat and lurch to the left. I jumped off the running board and ran toward his car. I was so focused on getting to the president and Mrs. Kennedy to provide them cover that I didn’t hear the second shot. I was just feet away when I heard and felt the effects of a third shot. It hit the president in the upper right rear of his head, and blood was everywhere. Once in the back seat, I threw myself on top of the president and first lady so that if another shot came, it would hit me instead." (Interview with Bob Barnard on WTTG, Washington D.C.'s channel Fox 5, and subsequently posted on the website promoting The Kennedy Detail, 11-22-10) "I was scanning the left side of the street in Dealey Plaza, and I heard an explosive noise from my right rear. And so I scanned from my left to my right going toward that noise. When I did so I scanned across the back of the car. What I saw was the president grab at his throat, and lurch to his left. And I knew something was wrong. So I jumped from the car and ran, ran toward the presidential vehicle. Now there was another shot, the second shot, I did not hear that because I was running. Just before I got to the car there was a third shot, and it hit the president in the head, causing an explosion to the upper right of his head, and brain material and blood spattered all about, including on myself. Mrs. Kennedy at that had come out on the trunk. She was apparently trying to retrieve something that had come off the president's head, and had gone to the right rear. She didn't know I was there. And so I grabbed her as best I could and put her into the back seat. And as I did that the president fell to his left onto her lap, with his right side of his head exposed. I could see his eyes, they was fixed, with a hole in his head about the size of my palm above his right ear." (Interview on C-Span program Q & A, 11-28-10) (Hill's comments while watching the Zapruder film) "When the third shot hit--which is right about now--I was just about to get onto the car. And I slipped. Then I regained my step. Then I got up on the car. Mrs. Kennedy at that time was coming out onto the trunk. She was coming out on the trunk to try to retrieve something that came off the President's head that went off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. When I got up on the trunk, I pushed her as best I could back into the rear seat. When I did that, the President fell down into her lap with the right side of his head up, exposed. I could see that his eyes were fixed and that there was a large hole above the right ear--just to the rear--above the right ear, about the size of my palm. That part of the skull was missing and there was brain matter--it looked like somebody'd taken an ice cream scoop and gone in there and removed a whole portion of the brain and thrown it around the back of the car. The back of the car and she were covered in blood and brain."

(BBC 4 audio interview published online, 12-1-10) "Well, we were turning left onto Elm Street in Dallas. And as we progressed down Elm Street I heard a sudden explosive noise from the right rear of the motorcade. And so my vision changed from looking left to looking toward that sound, which took my vision across the back of the presidential vehicle. And when I did that I saw the president grab at his throat and lurch to his left. And I knew something was wrong. And so I jumped from the follow-up car which was immediately behind the presidential vehicle and ran toward the presidential vehicle, attempting to get there to throw my body up on top of the car to form a shield between the president and Mrs. Kennedy and whoever was shooting at them." (When asked how many shots he heard) "I only heard two because while I was running apparently the second shot was fired. The third shot which I heard and felt because I was near the presidential vehicle when that happened hit the president in the head--upper right rear of the right ear--and it spewed blood matter, brain matter, and bone fragments out over the car and myself. And then I was getting up on the back of the car and Mrs. Kennedy was trying to come off out on the trunk of the car to retrieve something that had come off the president's head to the right rear. She did not know I was there. I pushed her back into the seat. And then the president's body fell to its left onto her lap." (When asked if at that time he knew Kennedy was dead) "Well, his right side of his face was up. I could see his eyes were fixed, that there was a hole in his skull above his right ear to the rear about the size of my palm. And I was quite sure that the shot had been fatal." (When asked if he felt the shots had come from the same place) "Yes I believe they all came from an elevated position to our right rear of the motorcade--it turned out to be the Texas School Book Depository--that they were all fired by the same rifle, and that they were all fired by one individual." (Interview in Discovery Channel program The Kennedy Detail, first broadcast 12-2-10) "The driver had to slow the car considerably in order to make the turn. Instead of going the 10-12 miles an hour we had been going he had to cut the speed at least in half. About that time, as I was scanning the left area from Elm Street, there was a large explosive noise to my right rear. I thought it was a fire cracker. My eyes passed over the back of the presidential car. And I saw the President grab at his throat and lurch slightly to his left. And I knew something was wrong. (Moments later in the program) Just before I got to the presidential vehicle I heard another large sound from the right rear. And then I heard the sound of an impact like a bullet hitting something hollow. Now Mrs. Kennedy was out on top of the trunk of the car trying to retrieve something she'd seen come off the President's head. I was trying to get up on the car. The driver all of a sudden accelerated. I grabbed the handle, pulled myself up, grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President slumped over into her lap. I looked down and realized how severe the President had been hit. Above the right ear, there was an area about the size of the palm of my hand that was gone. The skull was gone. It looked like an ice cream scoop had gone in and removed all the brain in that area. There was brain matter, skull, and blood throughout the entire car...(Later in the interview) On the way to Parkland, I had seen Governor Connally's chest covered in blood. That was the first that I realized that he'd also been shot." (12-3-10 appearance at Warwick's Bookstore, New York City, posted on Youtube) "We had just started to straighten out the vehicle as as we started down Elm Street toward the Stemmons Freeway. At that point, I was scanning to the left, which was a grassy area. I heard an explosive noise to the right rear of the motorcade to my right ear. My eyes took me to the right rear toward that sound. In so doing, I had to scan across the presidential vehicle. When I did that I saw the President grab at his throat and move to his left, and I knew something was wrong. So I jumped from the follow-up car and I ran toward the presidential vehicle. My intent was to get on top of the presidential vehicle and place myself between the President and Mrs. Kennedy and whoever was shooting at them. I ran, and apparently, in that time I ran there was a second shot. I did not hear it. As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left. His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . ." (When later asked, by someone claiming to have been given permission to inspect the autopsy photos in 1979, about his description of a wound on the right rear of the head) "Above the right ear. (At this point he touches his head above his right ear and slides his hand back behind his ear) It's hard for me to describe so that you can understand it." (He turns his back to the audience. His fingers are now on the crown of his head with the palm of his hand above his ear.)"Right in here. That portion of the skull was gone. About the size of this..." (He shows the audience his palm.) "My palm. It was an entry wound from the rear and it caused the entire area of that skull to lift up."

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

As a general rule, reports of observations are more reliable the closer in time they occur with respect to those

observations. Pat has become highly selective in promoting his theory of a right-hand-side blow out--which

did occur in relation to the skull flap, as I have explained many times--as opposed to the existence of a rear-

of-the-head blow out.

Clint Hill's formal report about his actions and observations is http://www.assassinationscience.com/ce-1024-clint-hill.pdf where, in the fifth paragraph on the third page of this document, which was Commission Exhibit 1024 and dated 30 November 1963, which would be one week after the assassination, Clint Hill wrote the following:

"As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. I saw a part of his skull with hair on it lying in the seat. . . .

Now I have shown many witnesses illustrating where it was located (at the right rear of the head). The Parkland physicians likewise confirm (it was at the right rear of the head). And Gary Aguilar's study of the multiple reports corroborates (that it was at the right rear of the head).

How much evidence would be enough for Pat Speer to concede that there was a massive gaping hole at the right rear of the head? I agree there was also a skull flap, as the mortician confirmed. But all of this song-and-dance to deny the obvious weight of the evidence is grossly intellectually irresponsible.

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Edited January 13, 2011 by James H. Fetzer

[Pat Speer]

It's really very simple, Pat. In addition to the massive blow-out to the back of the head, there was a skull

flap, which is included in the drawing and photograph from the HSCA included in my article. I invited

David Mantik to respond to your arguments, which he regarded as a complicated task, but he has told

me he is working on it. The fact of the matter is that you have demonstrated complete disregard for

the testimony of the eyewitnesses, including Clint Hill, the Parkland physicians, and Gary Aguilar's

study, all of which converge in agreement about the "fist sized hole" at the back of his head. And I

am sure this is not the first time I have pointed out that Thomas Evan Robinson, the mortician, also

described the blow-out to the back of the head PLUS the skull flap at the side, which you can find in

Joe West's notes about their interview. I included all this in "Dealey Plaza Revisited: What Happened

to JFK?", which is archived at http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/UNDchapter30.pdf Why don't you take some

time out and explain to the world why you discount the most important testimony from the witnesses,

including Clint Hill, the Parkland physicians, the mortician, and the study by Gary Aguilar in order to

claim support for your utterly indefensible position? It's about time you ceased practicing deceit and

deception about the medical evidence, Pat. Your are pretending this mass of evidence does not exist,

an elementary fallacy I spent 35 years teaching undergraduates to avoid. No one can take you seriously.

What nonsense, Jim. You actually responded to a post in which I presented all of Hill's recent statements regarding the head wound, and turned around and claimed I was ignorant about his statements. You seem unaware of the fact that I have an online book on the subject which deals with the medical evidence in far greater detail than any of your buddies, and shows why the statements of the Parkland witnesses DO NOT suggest what you claim they do.

Which brings me back to the question you keep dodging... Was the wound above Kennedy's ear or not, and If not, which of the Parkland witnesses said as much, and why do you act as though Hill--who insists the wound was above his ear--is beyond reproach in his description of the shooting?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Since Pat likes to cover up evidence when it conflicts with his "pet theory" of a side-of-head blow out but no back-of-head blow out, he is not going to share with you what Thomas Evan Robinson told Joe West about the wounds, which is available in many places, including later printings of MURDER, HOAX, and "Dealey Plaza Revisited: What Happened to JFK?", which I have cited many times. Here is what the mortician who prepared the body for the funeral told Joe West about it:

May 26, 1992 (phone)

Wounds:

* large gaping hole in back of head

patched by stretching piece of rubber

over it. Thinks skull full of Plaster of Paris

* smaller wound in right temple

crescent shape, flaped down (3")

* (approx 2) small shrapnel wounds in face

packed with wax

* wound in back (5 to six inches) below shoulder

to the right of back bone

* Adrenal gland and brain removed

* other organs removed and then put back

* no swelling or discoloration to face

(died instantly)

Dr. Berkley (family physician) came in an ask

"How much longer???

he was told (funeral director) "Take your time"

Is in favor of Exuming Body . . . to settle once and

for all. "Good pathologist would know exactly"

Once again, I have to ask, what is there about this that Pat Speer does not understand? There was a large gaping hole in back of head (the exit blow-out). There was a smaller wound in the right temple (the entry wound). AND there was a crescent shaped skull flap, which was still attached to the skull (as shown in the HSCA diagram and photograph). Anyone can view Joe West's notes for themselves to verify my transcription. I have given the link before http://www.und.edu/instruct/jfkconference/UNDchapter30.pdf where the notes themselves are published on page 363.

And while you are there, check out the summary of reports from the Parkland physicians, which appear on page 360. They are describing extruding cerebral and cerebellar tissue. Apparently, Pat Speer does not know the location of the cerebellum, which is a compact part of the brain at the base of the skull, so I provide diagrams on page 361. Their only advantages over Pat Speed is that they were competent and they were there. How long is this charade of fakery by Pat Speer supposed to go on? I cannot abide his distorted and indefensible arguments.

WHAT IS THERE NOT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS?

And, of course, in the process Pat Speer is ALSO disregarding the consistent and competent reports of the Parkland

physicians, as I have observed to him many times, not to mention the study of the descriptions of the wound to the

back of the head by Gary Aguilar, M.D., which appeared in MURDER. I don't know how long Pat thinks he can continue

to con the members of this forum with his selective use of evidence, but it has grown tiresome to me. He does not

even acknowledge the statement published in THE KENNEDY DETAIL (2010) which I accented by placing it in bold:

And slumped across the seat, President Kennedy lay unmoving, a bloody, gaping, fist-sized hole clearly visible

in the back of his head. (THE KENNEDY DETAIL, p. 217)

After all, if JFK has a fist-sized hole clearly visible in the back of his head, it follows that (1) the eyewitnesses were right,

(2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked, (4) various autopsy photographs were

also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays have been altered, precisely as we have found above. In fact, Clint Hill was far

from the only expert who described that wound as “fist-sized”. When I edited ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), I invited

Charles Crenshaw, M.D., to contribute a chapter and asked him to diagram the wounds as he had personally witnessed

them at Parkland Hospital, where he was the last physician to observe them before he closed JFK’s eyelids as he was being

wrapped in sheets and placed in the casket. Charles told me that this defect was the size of a baseball or else the size

of your fist when you double it up. Of course, their only advantage over Pat Speer is that they were actually there and

he was not. I cannot abide pseudo-scientific drivel from someone who poses as an expert but disregards the evidence.

How many times have we encountered the smallness of minds on this forum, Jack? Here is indisputable proof

(1) the eyewitnesses were right, (2) the Zapruder film has been recreated, (3) the final Altgens photo was faked,

(4) various autopsy photographs were also faked, and (5) the autopsy X-rays were altered, precisely as we have

found above, many of which we already knew on independent grounds, but now based upon the words of Clint

Hill and the pages of THE KENNEDY DETAIL! I don't know how we can do much better than that! But some

like Bill Kelly and Ron Ecker seem to think that the 112th "stand down" is a bigger fish to fry? Ecker goes so far as

to claim that I created the distraction by mentioning in passing a familiar point of common knowledge! I am stunned.

There seem to be nitpickers here detracting from the central issue...THAT CLINT HILL IS SAYING ON VIDEO AND IN A BOOK

THINGS WHICH ARE NOT SEEN IN THE Z FILM.

The "standdown" order, which is fairly well known and well accepted, is NOT THE ISSUE, but is being used as a distraction.

Jack

Jim, newsflash--people remember things incorrectly and inconsistently all the time. The only way Hill's statements can be used in the way you want them to be used is if you SHOW him the film and he tells you it isn't accurate. You can then shout to the sky that "Hey, I've made a case for the inaccuracy of the film!"

Until then...

As far as the location of the head wound, Hill has specified many times in recent years that the wound was palm-sized and above the ear. Sometimes he shades it to the rear of the ear.

But, no matter, he ALWAYS places it quite far from the occipital wound involving cerebellum you'd like us to believe he's describing...

So...is he telling the truth (as he sees it) or not?

P.S. Your match-up of the autopsy photo and Dox Drawing is deceptive. The supposed bullet hole on the Dox Drawing IS visible on the autopsy photo just BELOW your oval. It is pale and faded, however, and appears to be the dried blood Humes claimed it was.

Just answer the question, Jim. Was Hill telling the truth when he claimed the "palm-sized" wound was above the ear? A wound "above the ear" even if it is shaded toward the back of the head, as Hill claims, is still far closer to the wound in the autopsy photos than the occipital wound at and below the level of the ear you'd have us believe he was describing. So, was he telling the truth? Or are you citing his statements as "proof" when they are at odds with the Zapruder film, even though you don't find his other statements credible?

As far as someone "conning" someone, I'm sorry but you'll have to look in a mirror to find the person trying to "con" you. READ the eyewitness statements. DO NOT cherry-pick. SEE that the witnesses were describing ONE wound--NOT the exit for an entrance wound on the front of the head. SEE that the vast majority of them placed this wound on the right side toward the back, at or above the level of the ear. UNDERSTAND that this means the occipital bone was not blown out and that the Harper fragment was NOT occipital bone. UNDERSTAND that those persisting in the myth the Harper fragment was occipital bone are the ones whose studies and "research" are at odds with the statements of the witnesses, and not me.

P.S. I'm still waiting for your acknowledgment that Mantik placed the metal debris in the wrong place on his exhibit, and then incorrectly used it discredit Angel. YOUR credibility on the medical evidence is ZERO, as far as I can see, until you do so.

Edited January 13, 2011 by James H. Fetzer

[Bill Miller]

I feel I should point out the obvious ... The rear avulsion to JFK's head is seen in the Zapruder film. It exist within the oblong shape of the back of the President's skull when seen in profile.

The reason why we cannot look down into this avulsion is because of the blurring of the film from both motion and panning blur. From the moment of the head shot ... the sun is opposite of Zapruder which makes the back of the head appear dark. These are not alterations, but rather rules of nature and physics.

And about Clint Hill .... it is highly likely that Clint Hill felt that he helped Mrs. Kennedy back into the seat, but because the film shows otherwise, as does all the images of those moments, Hill's words do not constitute alteration. After all, do we say all the films are altered because Jackie in her moments of panic didn't remember getting up on to the trunk .... of course not. Obviously Hill was there to assist and wanted Jackie back into the seat and in his mind he felt that is what he did.

The problem why the alteration claims have not been accepted by experts is that the folks claiming alteration do not consider the natural causes for what is seen. It was Wiegman's running while filming that caused so much blur that Zapruder and Sitman all but vanaished from the pedestal with the exception of a frame or two. Below is a crop from the Willis photo. The image is also fuzzy from motion blur and the backs of the Agents heads look blacked out, but no one claims their heads were altered.

It is for these natural causes is why I believe that the alteration claims do not get anywhere. If it were not true, then why would someone attempt to make a case for what a witness said against the Zapruder film on such explainable discrepancies.

Bill

Edited January 13, 2011 by Bill Miller

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Astonishing how casually you can dismiss the personal report of the man who was there about his actions during the most important moments of his life, which he has consistently adhered to for some 47 years. I hate to say it, but your meaningless psychobabble is no substitute for and does not undermine the significance of what Clint Hill has to tell us, where the actions he describes having taken BEFORE THE LIMO REACHED THE TRIPLE UNDERPASS are not shown in the film. It is more than a stretch for you to substitute your speculations for his recollections. From those reports of his actions, we know the film has been faked--which we knew before from dozens of indications of the kind I reported in "Zapruder JFK Film impeached by Moorman JFK Polaroid", "US Government Official: JFK Cover-Up, Film Fabrication", and "The JFK 'Head Shot' Paradox".

I would also observe that, since you are conceding JFK had a massive blow-out to the back of the head the size of a fist, as Clint Hill describes, you acknowledge that the witnesses who reported a massive blow out to the back of the head were correct, that the HSCA diagram and photograph are faked, that Crenshaw's diagram is more or less accurate, and that the official X-rays were "patched", as Mantik's studies have revealed. I take it you also agree that Pat Speer's research is seriously flawed since it does not acknowledge the witness reports, the Parkland physicians' observations, or the mortician's summary of the wounds. Since the blow out has been painted over in the film--with the exception of a few frames, such as 374, where it is visible--your position also implies that the Zapruder film has been faked. Thanks for admitting this much, which is more than I expected from you.

I feel I should point out the obvious ... The rear avulsion to JFK's head is seen in the Zapruder film. It exist within the oblong shape of the back of the President's skull when seen in profile.

The reason why we cannot look down into this avulsion is because of the blurring of the film from both motion and panning blur. From the moment of the head shot ... the sun is opposite of Zapruder which makes the back of the head appear dark. These are not alterations, but rather rules of nature and physics.

And about Clint Hill .... it is highly likely that Clint Hill felt that he helped Mrs. Kennedy back into the seat, but because the film shows otherwise, as does all the images of those moments, Hill's words do not constitute alteration. After all, do we say all the films are altered because Jackie in her moments of panic didn't remember getting up on to the trunk .... of course not. Obviously Hill was there to assist and wanted Jackie back into the seat and in his mind he felt that is what he did.

The problem why the alteration claims have not been accepted by experts is that the folks claiming alteration do not consider the natural causes for what is seen. It was Wiegman's running while filming that caused so much blur that Zapruder and Sitman all but vanaished from the pedestal with the exception of a frame or two. Below is a crop from the Willis photo. The image is also fuzzy from motion blur and the backs of the Agents heads look blacked out, but no one claims their heads were altered.

It is for these natural causes is why I believe that the alteration claims do not get anywhere. If it were not true, then why would someone attempt to make a case for what a witness said against the Zapruder film on such explainable discrepancies.

Bill

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Do you understand what you are acknowledging, Jiim? Since you agree with Bill Miller that JFK had a blow out to the back of his head the size of a fist, as Clint Hill describes, you are thereby implicitly admitting that the witnesses who reported a massive blow out to the back of the head were correct, that the HSCA diagram and photograph are faked, that Crenshaw's diagram is more or less accurate, and that the official X-rays were "patched", as Mantik's studies have revealed. I take it you also agree that Pat Speer's research is seriously flawed since it does not acknowledge the witness reports, the Parkland physicians' observations, or the mortician's summary of the wounds. Since the blow out has been painted over in the film--with the exception of a few frames, such as 374, where it is visible--your position also implies that the Zapruder film has been faked. I will be glad to have your confirmation of these points, since otherwise your position is completely incoherent. While it would come as no surprise to me to have another example of research where you have no idea what you are talking about, if you agree with these obvious consequences of Bill Miller's assertions, that would be a giant step forward. And since I have laid out all the relevant evidence here, if those are not consequences that you accept, I would appreciate knowing which you reject and your reasons for doing so.

THanks Bill, those are very clear stills from the Z film.

THis is now about four frames I have seen from the film that depict this impact through the back of the skull.