Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?

[Len Colby]

Mark's latest comments

My latest comments

The Person who said that Oswald had an interest in the U2 Was Lt Donovan.

When did he say that? He made no mention of it during his WC testimony

Can you provide us with the quote?

Epestein say which marine said that.

He was also with Oswald at Atsugi

Epstein claimed that the “marine” said what? a) that Donovan “said that Oswald had an interest in the U2” or he was “with Oswald at Atsugi”? Can you provide the exact quote?

Not according to his WC testimony, do you think he perjured himself?

On that i have no idea if he did or did not.

The question was rhetorical, what evidence is there that he was “with Oswald at Atsugi”? Why would he lie under oath about this if 100 or so witnesses could have contradicted him?

Epstein talk with many former marines that was with Oswald in Far East one was named Joseph Macedo was on Oswald's radar. He said that Oswald was familiar with the U2 as the rest of the crew.

The others saw the U2 take off and land.

Just watching it “take off and land” would not let him know the plane’s maximum altitiude.

Here is the paragraph in Epstein's book.

One marine inside the bubble seemed to go about his work with a good deal of silent efficiency. He was gaunt with sparkling eyes and a smile that was often taken for a contemptuous smirk. Like the others he heard the radio calls from Race Car and according to one officer showed an extraordinary [interest] in the path of the ghostly plane. That Marine was Lee Harvey Oswald

Maybe Epstein in his notes says who told him that.

So do you not actually have the book or are you telling us he did not ID the officer in it? In the latter case “all we have is a vague paraphrasing of a single ANONYMOUS source”

So all we have is a vague paraphrasing of a single source, did Epstein identify the officer? He didn't even say explicitly that he followed to or from its maximum altitude. The radio calls wouldn't tell anyone much the pilots only used the radio when they were close to take off and landing.

I was able to read part of the page on Google Books, Epstein made one statement that was both false and misleading:

“…the U-2s, which used Atsugi as one of their two main bases, were providing no less than 90 percent of all hard information on Soviet military, ballistic and nuclear bomb activities.”

The reality was that there were three units at the time and the Japanese was seems to have been the least active. Detachment A was based in West Germany and flew the lion share of Russian and East European over flights. Detachment B was originally based in Turkey then moved to Pakistan, they flew over the Middle East and after they relocated “flew deep into the Soviet Union nine times”. There only seems to have been one Russian over flight of Atsugi (Detachment C) the rest were over China and other East Asian countries.

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp

Mark, forum custom and common sense dictate that when you reply to a post you do something to differentiate your comments from the other person’s, you can do this by bolding or changing text color. Also you should be consistent in putting your comments above or below those you are referring to, the latter is more common. This makes it a lot easier for other people to follow the conversation.

EDIT - 'Emoticons' disabled!

Edited February 12, 2012 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Bumped for Mark W.

[Mark Wengler]

I wil look though the book again let me kow what you need to know

[Len Colby]

I wil look though the book again let me kow what you need to know

I already asked you some questions in my previous (Feb. 2012) post.

[Larry Hancock]

The subject of the U2 "detectability" from its earliest development flights on is covered in great detail in

a book titled "Shadow Flights" by Curtis Peebles, a real expert on covert aircraft. I'd highly recommend it.

A lot of what we have read in the past in JFK material is pretty well off base. For example it had been hoped

that the aircraft would be hard to pick up on radar but even on its very first penetration flight radio intercepts

determined the Soviets were tracking it. On later flights NSA intercepts showed that it was tracked on virtually

every flight and that the Soviets were very much aware of its altitude and operational characteristics...they

kept vectoring interceptors to it but just could not get anything up high enough to hit it.

The engineers came up with some stealth enhancing fixes like a special material for the underbelly but that really

did little good overall. Of course a lot of this was protected information since nobody wanted to expose how

successful our radio intercept capabilities were.

In any event, the Russians were not handicapped by the ability to detect and track the U2, they simply needed a

missile that could get up to it and to have the plane fly over one of those installations, and when it did...

I wil look though the book again let me kow what you need to know

I already asked you some questions in my previous (Feb. 2012) post.

[Len Colby]

The subject of the U2 "detectability" from its earliest development flights on is covered in great detail in

a book titled "Shadow Flights" by Curtis Peebles, a real expert on covert aircraft. I'd highly recommend it.

Sounds like a good book. Thanks for the tip. Gary Powers Jr. recommended Dragon Lady: The History of the U-2 Spyplane by Chris Pocock

A lot of what we have read in the past in JFK material is pretty well off base. For example it had been hoped that the aircraft would be hard to pick up on radar but even on its very first penetration flight radio intercepts determined the Soviets were tracking it. On later flights NSA intercepts showed that it was tracked on virtually every flight and that the Soviets were very much aware of its altitude and operational characteristics...they kept vectoring interceptors to it but just could not get anything up high enough to hit it.

That matches my findings as well see post #45

The engineers came up with some stealth enhancing fixes like a special material for the underbelly but that really did little good overall.

From what I’ve read they actually made the plane more vulnerable because they added weight reducing the plane’s flight ceiling. That’s why they started work on the “Oxcart” A-12