Logical implications of nearly simultaneous heads shots

[Peter McGuire]

I think Umbrella Man was an innocent bystander. He has given sworn testimony before the HSCA. His name is Steven Witt.

http://history-matte..._Vol4_0217a.htm

Witt the Twit was manufactured after the fact.

No one but a fool , considering JFK WAS killed that moment, would think some man would be there with an umbrella as the POTUS drove by.

He ( and Radio Man ) as seen in the Zapruder film are obvious spotters and signal men.

Why are there always fools and conspirators peddling this nonsense?

You guys also do know that Cyril Wecht believes simultaneous shots front the front and behind. However, no bullets from that antique gun used to frame Mr. Lee Oswald ever reached the president. Another gun was found and had been fired from behind. The gun found shortly after was shown in a film and is a fact. You can see policeman raising the gun.

I also believe that the man you call "Radio Man" was also an innocent bystander but that is a subject for a different thread.

Then you are "double dumb."

And I believe it part of the same old tired balony. Nonsense. A dark skinned man with something in his hand then back pocket EXACTLY in the place where the POTUS was shot.

Dream on and tell your story walking.

Peter,

FWIW, I agree with you on this, If it was Witt, he lied during his testimony when he said he couldn't see JFK because he was trying to get his umbrella open and it was blocking his view of the Prez! Also lied about his movements on the sidewalk/grassy knoll as the President was approaching...

--Tommy

It is hard to sort out ones movements when you were not even there. Very bad preparation on Twit's part. Did he live long after that? I say that because he was not helpful to their cause.

And then after being caught in these lies, talking about an implausible scenerio, they still march on. Is there nothing that will put these liars in their place?

[Mike Rago]

It is hard to sort out ones movements when you were not even there. Very bad preparation on Twit's part. Did he live long after that? I say that because he was not helpful to their cause.

And then after being caught in these lies, talking about an implausible scenerio, they still march on. Is there nothing that will put these liars in their place?

He was there.

The picture on the right is a picture of Witt , under oath, at the HSCA hearings.

Looks like the same man to me.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Thomas Graves]

It is hard to sort out ones movements when you were not even there. Very bad preparation on Twit's part. Did he live long after that? I say that because he was not helpful to their cause.

And then after being caught in these lies, talking about an implausible scenerio, they still march on. Is there nothing that will put these liars in their place?

He was there.

The picture on the right is a picture of Witt , under oath, at the HSCA hearings.

Looks like the same man to me.

Mike,

UM looks more like Roy Hargraves or Gordon Novel to me. I also think that Novel was "captured" in a film taken of LHO distributing flyers outside the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. DCM looks like Orlando Bosch or Filipe Vidal Santiago.

Photomantage provided by James Richards to the Spartacus website.

--Tommy

Edited July 8, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[David Andrews]

If Umbrella Man, and Dark Complected Man waving his hand in the street, are signalling visually, are they doing so to alert a shooter ahead of the limo, whose view of the car may be limited or may only be clear for the brief duration it will take for one head shot?

Say UM and DCM are signalling this shooter that Kennedy is not fatally hit by the time he passes the Stemmons Freeway sign - because this shooter may have trouble seeing that for himself. What does that tell us about this forward shooter's position?

It may have been desirable to have this shooter fire only if signaled that a frontal shot was absolutely needed. I believe UM and DCM are there to alert all shooters of their results - but what if they're especially needed to alert a front gunman with limited view. Of course, they're alerting his radio spotter, too. Just look at the direction DCM is waving at.

If there are A and B plans - fatal shot by the the time the limo passes the Stemmons sign (fired from front or behind), or a more obvious and risky frontal shot after the limo passes the sign - what can this tell us about shots fired between the Houston-Elm corner and the Stemmons sign?

Edited July 8, 2012 by David Andrews

[Mike Rago]

Umbrella Man and DCM did not signal anyone. They were/are innocent people.

The simultaneous shots occurred the instant the signal was given. If you know where the simultaneous shots occurred you know the instant the signal was given. Three things are simultaneous...the two shots and the signal all happen at the same time.

In this scenario, they did have to have a way to be able to see clearly into the car to determine the condition of the president.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Thomas Graves]

It is hard to sort out ones movements when you were not even there. Very bad preparation on Twit's part. Did he live long after that? I say that because he was not helpful to their cause.

And then after being caught in these lies, talking about an implausible scenerio, they still march on. Is there nothing that will put these liars in their place?

He was there.

The picture on the right is a picture of Witt , under oath, at the HSCA hearings.

Looks like the same man to me.

Mike,

UM looks more like Roy Hargraves or Gordon Novel to me. I also think that Novel was "captured" in a film taken of LHO distributing flyers outside the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. DCM looks like Orlando Bosch or Filipe Vidal Santiago:

.

Photomantage provided by James Richards to the Spartacus website.

--Tommy

PS: Note the big rectangular bulge in DCM's windbreaker's left pocket in the very top left photo of Mike's post.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[David Andrews]

Umbrella Man and DCM did not signal anyone. They were/are innocent people.

The simultaneous shots occurred the instant the signal was given. If you know where the simultaneous shots occurred you know the instant the signal was given. Three things are simultaneous...the two shots and the signal all happen at the same time.

In this scenario, they did have to have a way to be able to see clearly into the car to determine the condition of the president.

I think you've been on to a couple things going on in Dealey, but the innocence of UM and DCM is not one of them.

DCM is the only person in that area standing out in the street to wave. Does it seem like he's waving at Kennedy?

The Newmans, Charles Brehm, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman - all on the grass. Nobody standing in the street on the north or south side except DCM. Not even Ike Altgens.

Edited July 9, 2012 by David Andrews

[Richard Hocking]

If Umbrella Man, and Dark Complected Man waving his hand in the street, are signalling visually, are they doing so to alert a shooter ahead of the limo, whose view of the car may be limited or may only be clear for the brief duration it will take for one head shot?

Say UM and DCM are signalling this shooter that Kennedy is not fatally hit by the time he passes the Stemmons Freeway sign - because this shooter may have trouble seeing that for himself. What does that tell us about this forward shooter's position?

It may have been desirable to have this shooter fire only if signaled that a frontal shot was absolutely needed. I believe UM and DCM are there to alert all shooters of their results - but what if they're especially needed to alert a front gunman with limited view. Of course, they're alerting his radio spotter, too. Just look at the direction DCM is waving at.

If there are A and B plans - fatal shot by the the time the limo passes the Stemmons sign (fired from front or behind), or a more obvious and risky frontal shot after the limo passes the sign - what can this tell us about shots fired between the Houston-Elm corner and the Stemmons sign?

David,

some additional thoughts and comments:

Were UM and DCM: Signal men in Dealey Plaza?

UM and DCM stand out in the film clips and photos of the people on Elm St. UM has an open umbrella (on a Sunny Day) and DCM has what appears to be a walkie-talkie with an antenna. These men are a few feet apart as the Limo approaches the Stemmons Freeway sign and then sit down together after the shooting sequence concludes.

To gain a better understanding of why these two men are regarded suspiciously, it is necessary to place them in the context of the Big Picture, including their location, and the timing of events around them.

Multitudes of people had turned out to view the motorcade. The Presidential Limo had completed the heavy crowd portion of the trip to the Trade Mart as it made the turn onto Elm St. Comparativley very few people had chosen Elm St., west of the TSBD in Dealey Plaza for their viewing location. And for good reason. The on-ramp to the Stemmons Freeway was just several hundred feet West of the Elm/Houston intersection. The Limo should have been steadily accelerating down the Elm St. slope in preparation for merging onto the freeway. At least, that is what you might expect.

But that is not what happened. … The Limo did not accelerate.

The Kill Zone is the area on Elm Street where all the shooting took place. UM and DCM are located on the sidewalk by the Stemmons Freeway sign near the front portion of the Kill Zone. As the Limo approaches, UM has the Umbrella open above his head. He is standing a few feet directly behind DCM, who is standing near the curb. DCM has his right arm straight up in the air over his head. After passing these two men, the Limo slows down. Some witnesses say it nearly stopped. Some witnesses say it completely stopped. Somewhere during this slow-down/stop sequence, the fatal shots are fired. The Driver, SSA Greer looks back, sees the President has been mortally wounded, and then rapidly accelerates the Limo to the Stemmons Freeway on-ramp.

http://whowhatwhy.co...4e70c7c73d1.jpg

Who might these men have been Signalling?

• SSA William Greer, the Limo Driver, (and possibly other select members of the SS in the Limo and Followup Car) that the Limo was entering the Kill Zone

• Shooter(s) in a West-facing window of the TSBD, or other shooter teams that the Limo was entering the Kill Zone

What might the Signal(s) have meant?

• Limo entering the Kill Zone

• Acquire target and fire

• JFK not mortally wounded, continue shooting

UM may have been the “locator” standing right behind DCM so that shoot-team spotters could easily find DCM, who may have been the one actually flashing the signal.

And the signal could have been as simple as DCM leaving his arm raised up until he had observed a head shot.

Aftermath

These two men were plainly visible to the Pilot Car, to Dallas Motorcycle Officers, and to the SS, who all passed by them. They were at the very least, close eye witnesses to a Capital Murder. They appeared in numerous film clips and photos taken of the assassination. Yet, Neither the Warren Commission nor the FBI made any attempt to locate them.

Excerpt from Russ Baker:

http://lewrockwell.c...ker-r8.1.1.html

“… When the House Select Committee on Assassinations was formed, researchers demanded an investigation of both men. Finally, the Committee released a photograph of Umbrella Man and asked anyone to come forward with any information about him.

"Coincidently", the Umbrella Man was suddenly identified in Dallas just shortly after this national appeal. An anonymous caller told researcher Penn Jones Jr. that the wanted man was the former Dallas insurance salesman Louis Steven Witt. Jones contacted some local newsmen and together they confronted Witt. Although Witt refused to talk to a newsman, he confirmed that he was in Dealey Plaza when Kennedy was killed. Jones later wrote (2):

I felt the man had been coached. He would answer no questions and pointedly invited us to leave. His only positive statement, which seemed to come very quickly, was that he was willing to appear before the House Select Committee on Assassinations in Washington.

Witt told the Commission that he had the umbrella to heckle Kennedy. He claimed that someone told him that an open umbrella would rile Kennedy. But he did not offer any further explanation of how it would heckle JFK. Some Committee members theorized that the umbrella somehow referred to Kennedy's father who was serving as U.S. ambassador to Britain prior to World War II. The umbrella may have symbolized the policies of Britain's Prime Minister Chamberlain who always carried an umbrella. (3)

I think I went sort of maybe halfway up the grassy area (on the north side of Elm Street), somewhere in that vicinity. I am pretty sure I sat down....(When the motorcade approached) I think I got up and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward, walking toward the street....Whereas other people I understand saw the President shot and his movements; I did not see this because of this thing (the umbrella) in front of me....My view of the car during that length of time was blocked by the umbrella's being open. (4)

None of Witt s statements were accurate. Umbrella man stood waiting for the motorcade with his umbrella in the usual position over his head. Then he pumped it up in the air as Kennedy passed. Despite Witt's bizarre story - totally incompatible with the actions of the man in the photographs - a few researchers accepted Louis Steven Witt as the "Umbrella Man".

The HSCA made no effort to find the second man, the Dark-complected man, who appeared to have been talking on a radio moments after the assassination. Witt claimed he had no recollection of such a person, although on photographs he can be seen talking to him. …”

Edited July 9, 2012 by Richard Hocking

[Mike Rago]

Again, Umbrella man and DCM are innocent men. They did not signal anyone.

Along the parade route there were many many people who were in the street waving at the president. I recall a recent picture with Greer having his door open to push people back. I believe Mary Moorman stepped into the street to take a picture of a motorcycle policeman.

People say that DCM had a radio. DCM did not have a radio. DCM had something tucked under his sweaterthat people like to say was a radio.

Those same people do not even know that DCM walked with a limp because they did not investigate all his known movements that day. if he had a radio why did he have to signal(according to your interpretation, not mine) by waving his hand in the air?

Do you really think he sat down and then walked among the crowd with a radio strapped under his sweater after the president was shot?

If you can see it today in the pictures I am quite sure that the crowd of people saw it that very day as he walked among the crowd. Because you do not know what it is you can imagine it to be anything you want. But as Josiah Thompson says in his video you cannot imagine all the completely innocent things it could be that would have a very logical explanation.

The preceeding are all rhetorical questions so please do not feel you need to respond to them.

Everyone says the Umbrella Man pumped his umbrella. I am looking for the video of that do you know which video shows that?

The signal was given when the simultaneous shots occurred. And the simultansous shots occurred here...

I am not the only one who believes in the innocence of Umbrella Man. (I do not know what he thinks of DCM)

Edited July 9, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Chris Davidson]

Mike,

Betzner and Willis show the umbrella is above his head.

According to the extant Z version, approx 1/2 to 1 second from those two photos, the umbrella is being raised and twirled somewhat.

chris

[Thomas Graves]

Again, Umbrella man and DCM are innocent men. They did not signal anyone.

Along the parade route there were many many people who were in the street waving at the president. I recall a recent picture with Greer having his door open to push people back. I believe Mary Moorman stepped into the street to take a picture of a motorcycle policeman.

People say that DCM had a radio. DCM did not have a radio. DCM had something tucked under his sweaterthat people like to say was a radio.

Those same people do not even know that DCM walked with a limp because they did not investigate all his known movements that day. if he had a radio why did he have to signal(according to your interpretation, not mine) by waving his hand in the air?

Do you really think he sat down and then walked among the crowd with a radio strapped under his sweater after the president was shot?

If you can see it today in the pictures I am quite sure that the crowd of people saw it that very day as he walked among the crowd. Because you do not know what it is you can imagine it to be anything you want. But as Josiah Thompson says in his video you cannot imagine all the completely innocent things it could be that would have a very logical explanation.

The preceeding are all rhetorical questions so please do not feel you need to respond to them.

Everyone says the Umbrella Man pumped his umbrella. I am looking for the video of that do you know which video shows that?

The signal was given when the simultaneous shots occurred. And the simultansous shots occurred here...

I am not the only one who believes in the innocence of Umbrella Man. (I do not know what he thinks of DCM)

He didn't walk among the crowd when he was walking down Elm Street. But he was "captured" tucking the radio into his back pocket or under his belt, and the outline of the radio is apparent under his windbreaker..

--Tommy

Edited July 9, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Mike Rago]

Mr. Graves, in my opinion, you need to support statements like that with some photographic evidence. You cannot show me or anyone a picture of a radio underneath that mans sweater.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Thomas Graves]

Mr. Graves, it is responses like the one you just gave that has caused me to put you on my ignore list. I only saw that post because I was not logged in.

You need to support statements like that with some photographic evidence. You cannot show me or anyone a picture of a radio underneath that mans sweater.

You're right again, Mike. It was probably just an oversized copy of War and Peace.

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Mr. Graves, it is responses like the one you just gave that has caused me to put you on my ignore list. I only saw that post because I was not logged in.

You need to support statements like that with some photographic evidence. You cannot show me or anyone a picture of a radio underneath that mans sweater.

Sweater? What sweater?

--Tommy

[Mike Rago]

Mike,

Betzner and Willis show the umbrella is above his head.

According to the extant Z version, approx 1/2 to 1 second from those two photos, the umbrella is being raised and twirled somewhat.

chris

Thank you for that information.

I had to blow up the photos to see the umbrella.

In betzner it looks like the umbrella is after the sign. I do see Zapruder and Sitzman on their pedestal.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Mike Rago