Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

[David Josephs]

So you've read the work on Alice Tracy?

[Greg Parker]

(As you go thru the book, write down two lists, the marines with LEE and those with HARVEY... see where that takes you.)

If you start with the presumption that there is a "Harvey", it is no surprise that you will find one. It is the same logical fallacy you employ over and over again.

How about you sort that out in your own head, and then start your own investigation with no such presumptions. Instead, look for alternatives to your conundrums. If you can positively rule out all other alternatives in each case, you're on your way to a possible real live "Harvey". But here's a clue. Blanket or cover-all statements that the FBI covers up stuff and changes documents cannot be allowed without specific evidence supporting each contention. Same goes for accusations that the FBI put perfectly sane witnesses into mental asylums and murdered them. Allowable only if there is specific evidence in specific cases.

New found witnesses cannot be counted where contemporaneous accounts tell a different story and there is no valid reason OTHER than the new witness to discount the old witness/es.

Old friends of those close to the Armstrong investigation cannot be used where there has been no disclosure of said friendship.

Photos that are represented as being of two different people need to be verified as such by external experts (i.e. not Jack White or any other "expert' already with a dog in this fight)

School records need to be explained by someone actually familiar with the school systems involved. Let those chips fall where they may.

Do all of that and see where it takes you...

I've done all that Greg... and placed it on a spreadsheet side-by-side to illustrate these conflicts...

No you haven't.

You have started with your conclusion that there was a "Harvey" and then put all the anomalous records into a spreadsheet, using those conflicts as your evidence. Not once have you explored alternative possibilities for any of them.

And this reply is yet another in your arsenal of logical fallacies. Proof by verbosity ( submission of others to an argument too complex and verbose to reasonably deal with in all its intimate details)

I'm not going to even attempt to deal with all of it because I do not have unlimited time.

But to deal quickly with a few items...

I did account for the 55 days and time in Youth House, The numbers came out close to your magic 180 figure. I suggested getting someone actually familiar with such records on the basis that you disagree with me. I am quite confident that my figures would be shown as correct by anyone familiar with such records. I would further suggest someone not involved in this locate such a person. Not sure what your objection could possibly be to that.

You say "You want to believe that you know more about the Kudlaty-White relationship than is offered" No. See, this is just another example of how you skew things.

I DO NOT know MORE than what has been offered. I only know WHAT has been offered.

And what has been offered has been 2 contradictory stories to me from White about his relationship to Kudlaty and a third story from White to Armstrong which contradicts BOTH of those stories. If this had been an FBI agents giving 3 different stories about a witness, you'd be screaming blue murder. But because it is Jack White, you dance around it like a prima ballerina.

You ask "Was Anna Lewis lying when she met Oswald in Feb 1962?" when the question should be, is she mistaken in her memory, is she lying or is she telling the truth with the aid of an accurate memory? In trying to determine that, you need to amass all of the available data about Oswald's whereabouts during the timeframe given, look at Anna herself to determine her credibility and also look at those behind this interview and their possible motives. When you do all of that, it doesn't look very promising.

You ask, "Where was Harvey when the FBI/CIA/State/I&NS make up the fraudulent evidence for the Mexico trip?" Again putting your conclusion into the question. The correct answer is... nowhere. He was yet to be born via John Armstrong's vivid imagination. See... the idea is that you prove the existence of something prior to asking where it might be found at a given point in time. Logic 101.

You ask, "Who is the Alice TX radio station job hunting Oswald?" No idea. Never looked into it. When I get a chance, I will and I will get back to you.

You ask, "How many people does it take to have seen Ruby and Oswald together in the summer of 1963 while he and his family are in New Orleans?" List names, dates, places and again I'll get back to you.

You're the best Greg...

but I'm done now. I've made my point to those who pay attention.

Have a nice life.

David, here is what people pay attention to.

No attempts by you (or Armstrong, or any of his other followers) to ever explore any alternative explanation for the anomalies you present.

Instead, we get a whole arsenal of evasive tactics ranging from ad hom and baiting through to changing topics, circular reasoning and a bombardment of irrelevant data in colorful fonts surrounded by dancing emoticons.

ps

I did have a quick look at the Alice material... and at first blush, it appears to be worth looking into further, if only because of the large number of witnesses.

[Jim Hargrove]

With a focus on actual events related to Dallas I'd love to see you guys jointly do a dialog on a subset of David's questions:

Who visits McKeown to buy rifles?

Who visits Odio?

Who is having a scope mounted?

Who is at the Sports Dome while in Irving with his family?

Who did they take out the back of the theater?

......I would also add Who was at Red Bird air field with the young couple talking about renting an airplane?

Not saying that any of those can't be challenged or are simply mis-identification but I'd like so see your thoughts on each of them.

No one seems to want to talk about this, but my bet is that American-born Lee Oswald was the person who did the above, mostly for the purpose of framing Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald for the assassination. Had Lee Oswald succeeded in purchasing guns from Castro's personal friend and gunrunner (McKeown), does anyone doubt one of McKeown's rifles would have appeared on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? By refusing to sell a gun to Lee Oswald, McKeown probably single-handedly prevented a U.S. invasion of Cuba!

[Greg Parker]

With a focus on actual events related to Dallas I'd love to see you guys jointly do a dialog on a subset of David's questions:

Who visits McKeown to buy rifles?

Who visits Odio?

Who is having a scope mounted?

Who is at the Sports Dome while in Irving with his family?

Who did they take out the back of the theater?

......I would also add Who was at Red Bird air field with the young couple talking about renting an airplane?

Not saying that any of those can't be challenged or are simply mis-identification but I'd like so see your thoughts on each of them.

No one seems to want to talk about this, but my bet is that American-born Lee Oswald was the person who did the above, mostly for the purpose of framing Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald for the assassination. Had Lee Oswald succeeded in purchasing guns from Castro's personal friend and gunrunner (McKeown), does anyone doubt one of McKeown's rifles would have appeared on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository? By refusing to sell a gun to Lee Oswald, McKeown probably single-handedly prevented a U.S. invasion of Cuba!

It's all been talked about ad nauseum. Do some searches and you'll see.

Among the many things you want to avoid talking about, are -

White's three different stories about his relationship to Kudlaty

Bennierita Smith's testimony regarding the little guy that sometimes hung out with Voebel and Oswald named Bobby Neumann who Darouse allowed herself to be convinced was actually "Harvey".

The anti-integration riots in Fort Worth at the start of September, 1956

The fact that I have Id'd the alleged father and uncle of "Harvey" as Louis Weinstock and Emil Gardos - the fact they were not related to each other by blood or marriage - and that neither looked anything like Lee Harvey Oswald.

[Paul Trejo]

Let us know how you fare with the important stuff...

1. Who visits McKeown to buy rifles?

2. Who visits Odio?

3. Who does Anna Lewis meet in Feb 1962 in New Orleans?

4. Who is having a scope mounted

5. Who does Craig see?

6. How is Oswald in Dallas and New Orleans during the summer of 1963 simultaneously?

Well, David, since you asked the Forum:

1. McKeown himself said that Jack Ruby contacted him.

2. Lee (Leon) Harvey Oswald, along with Loran Hall and Larry Howard, met Silvia Odio.

3. Anna Lewis got her dates wrong.

4. A random person with the common name of Lee Oswald had a scope mounted on a rifle.

5. Roger Craig indeed saw Lee Harvey Oswald getting into a Green Rambler by the TSBD as a passenger,

6. Oswald had transportation that the FBI could never admit, without breaking its "Lone Nut" theory.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[W. Tracy Parnell]

So you've read the work on Alice Tracy?

Not in a while, no.

[David Josephs]

Let us know how you fare with the important stuff...

1. Who visits McKeown to buy rifles?

2. Who visits Odio?

3. Who does Anna Lewis meet in Feb 1962 in New Orleans?

4. Who is having a scope mounted

5. Who does Craig see?

6. How is Oswald in Dallas and New Orleans during the summer of 1963 simultaneously?

Well, David, since you asked the Forum:

1. McKeown himself said that Jack Ruby contacted him.

2. Lee (Leon) Harvey Oswald, along with Loran Hall and Larry Howard, met Silvia Odio.

3. Anna Lewis got her dates wrong.

4. A random person with the common name of Lee Oswald had a scope mounted on a rifle.

5. Roger Craig indeed saw Lee Harvey Oswald getting into a Green Rambler by the TSBD as a passenger,

6. Oswald had transportation that the FBI could never admit, without breaking its "Lone Nut" theory.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul... I appreciate your enthusiasm yet you may want to reread some of the text related to these comments before offering solutions....

1. you obviously haven't read the evidence about Oswald and "Hernandez" - it's not easy to find... the HSCA interview of McKeown.

(whether it happened or not isn't the issue, that the story is told about Oswald when he is elsewhere is the point)

2. You're just plain wrong here - Hall and Howard themselves as well as Odio say it was not them

3. Repeatedly? There is no time Jan-Apr of 62 or 63 when Oswald was in New Orleans.. watch the video please

4. so you've read the story of this encounter? Doesn't sound like it

5. Lee or Harvey? Then who was in Whaley's cab?

6. That's just plain poor Paul. It's ok not to know the material... but then don't throw out any old thing and think you've offered anything more than a guess

He can't be with Ruby in Dallas while in the company of his family in New Orleans or at work at Reily...

He can't be at the Sports Drome when he is with his family in Irving

He can't be at the Sports Drome when the FBI puts him in Mexico City on Sept 28th...

Just a few examples of Ozzie here and there at the same time:

"Other Ruby employees who claim to have seen Oswald at Ruby's Carousel Club include William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay. In all, there were dozens of people who saw Lee Oswald and Ruby together in the summer of 1963-precisely when Harvey Oswald was working at Reily Coffee and residing with his wife and child on Magazine Street.

During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams to "Lee Harvey Oswald" at the Rotary Apartments, 1501- 1503 W. 7th Street in Dallas.113 The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams."

Dorothy Marcum was dating Jack Ruby in the summer of 1963 and her aunt

worked for Ruby.109 Dorothy told the FBI she knew for a fact that Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby knew each other, because Oswald worked for Ruby in June and July (1963). In the summer of 1963 Jack Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man came into the Carousel Club. Ruby acknowledged the man by saying "Hi, Ozzie" and later joined him in the back room after finishing the interview with Francis. After Ruby hired Miss Hise the same young man came into the bar and asked if he could buy her a drink. After the assassination Miss Hise recognized "Ozzie" as "Lee Harvey Oswald."110

Mrs. Ambrose Martinez worked as an Intake Secretary in the Welfare Office of

the Salvation Army at 500 North Ervay Street in Dallas. She recalled that two or three months before the assassination Lee and Marina Oswald, accompanied by both of their children, (Marina gave birth in Oct) came to the Salvation Army seeking aid. Mrs. Martinez remembered the Oswalds because Marina spoke only Russian and recalled that she listed her father in Moscow as a reference (Marina's father died when she was young) while Lee Oswald listed a "Mrs. Paine" as a reference. Oswald said that he and his wife were living with Mrs. Paine in Irving, Texas (not true) and they had met Mrs. Paine in New Orleans (Harvey and Marina met Ruth Paine in Dallas).17

[Steven Gaal]

Mrs. Ambrose Martinez worked as an Intake Secretary in the Welfare Office of

the Salvation Army at 500 North Ervay Street in Dallas. She recalled that two or three months before the assassination Lee and Marina Oswald, accompanied by both of their children, (Marina gave birth in Oct) came to the Salvation Army seeking aid. Mrs. Martinez remembered the Oswalds because Marina spoke only Russian and recalled that she listed her father in Moscow as a reference (Marina's father died when she was young) while Lee Oswald listed a "Mrs. Paine" as a reference. Oswald said that he and his wife were living with Mrs. Paine in Irving, Texas (not true) and they had met Mrs. Paine in New Orleans (Harvey and Marina met Ruth Paine in Dallas).17 // JOESPH

========================================================================

I get it Salvation Army full of KOOKS ..yeah that's it and drunk ...yeah and can be bought off yeah .....just want attention ...liars all yeah that's it !!! >>>>>> THAT WHAT U THINK WHEN U THINK SALVATION ARMY !!! >>>GAAL TONGUE IN CHEEK

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ourwork

OUR WORK

From family tracing to disaster response, The Salvation Army offers a wide variety of services worldwide.

Below is an overview of what we do. If you would like to find out more about any of the services we offer, please get in contact with the Salvation Army in your country.

=

Addiction Dependency
For those in need, the Salvation Army runs a number of addiction rehabilitation programs. We believe in taking the holistic approach, not just helping the client to overcome their addiction, but attacking the roots of that addiction.

Emergency Response
From sites of natural and man-made disasters to places of human conflict, the Salvation Army is there to provide compassion and practical support to those in real and sudden need. The Army strives to provide first for the immediate physical needs but beyond that, ministry for the aching heart and the weary soul.

=

Family Tracing

The Family Tracing Service was officially established in 1885, when it was designated as 'Mrs Booth's Enquiry Bureau'. It has developed to become one of The Salvation Army's most distinctive international services in many territories where it continues to be in operation 120 years on. The mission of the Family Tracing Service is to restore or sustain family relationships by tracing relatives with whom contact has been lost, either recently or in the distant past.

To find out more about the Family Tracing Service or to apply to have a relative traced, please contact the Salvation Army in the country where you reside.

=

Health Services

International Projects

=

Social Work
The Salvation Army is one of the largest social care providers in the World. There are social programs running in almost every country we operate in.

=

Sports Ministry

International Headquarters’ Sports Ministry Desk exists to encourage, support and resource Salvation Army Sports Ministry leaders around the world to find connections, to build relationships and to help people and communities to enjoy healthy lives in bodies, minds and souls. It does this as part of The Salvation Army’s mission to ‘save souls, grow saints and serve suffering humanity’.

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

also see http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_ihq_isjc.nsf/vw-sublinks/B3DB4808441E738E802575EE0009F92F?openDocument

Edited June 16, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Paul Trejo]

Thanks Paul... I appreciate your enthusiasm yet you may want to reread some of the text related to these comments before offering solutions....

1. you obviously haven't read the evidence about Oswald and "Hernandez" - it's not easy to find... the HSCA interview of McKeown.

(whether it happened or not isn't the issue, that the story is told about Oswald when he is elsewhere is the point)

2. You're just plain wrong here - Hall and Howard themselves as well as Odio say it was not them

3. Repeatedly? There is no time Jan-Apr of 62 or 63 when Oswald was in New Orleans.. watch the video please

4. so you've read the story of this encounter? Doesn't sound like it

5. Lee or Harvey? Then who was in Whaley's cab?

6. That's just plain poor Paul. It's ok not to know the material... but then don't throw out any old thing and think you've offered anything more than a guess

He can't be with Ruby in Dallas while in the company of his family in New Orleans or at work at Reily...

He can't be at the Sports Drome when he is with his family in Irving

He can't be at the Sports Drome when the FBI puts him in Mexico City on Sept 28th...

Just a few examples of Ozzie here and there at the same time:

"Other Ruby employees who claim to have seen Oswald at Ruby's Carousel Club include William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay. In all, there were dozens of people who saw Lee Oswald and Ruby together in the summer of 1963-precisely when Harvey Oswald was working at Reily Coffee and residing with his wife and child on Magazine Street.

During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams to "Lee Harvey Oswald" at the Rotary Apartments, 1501- 1503 W. 7th Street in Dallas.113 The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams."

Dorothy Marcum was dating Jack Ruby in the summer of 1963 and her aunt

worked for Ruby.109 Dorothy told the FBI she knew for a fact that Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby knew each other, because Oswald worked for Ruby in June and July (1963). In the summer of 1963 Jack Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man came into the Carousel Club. Ruby acknowledged the man by saying "Hi, Ozzie" and later joined him in the back room after finishing the interview with Francis. After Ruby hired Miss Hise the same young man came into the bar and asked if he could buy her a drink. After the assassination Miss Hise recognized "Ozzie" as "Lee Harvey Oswald."110

Mrs. Ambrose Martinez worked as an Intake Secretary in the Welfare Office of

the Salvation Army at 500 North Ervay Street in Dallas. She recalled that two or three months before the assassination Lee and Marina Oswald, accompanied by both of their children, (Marina gave birth in Oct) came to the Salvation Army seeking aid. Mrs. Martinez remembered the Oswalds because Marina spoke only Russian and recalled that she listed her father in Moscow as a reference (Marina's father died when she was young) while Lee Oswald listed a "Mrs. Paine" as a reference. Oswald said that he and his wife were living with Mrs. Paine in Irving, Texas (not true) and they had met Mrs. Paine in New Orleans (Harvey and Marina met Ruth Paine in Dallas).17

(1) Well, David, I have read about McKeown and "Lee Oswald" and Hernandez -- and the explanation, IMHO, is that this wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald, but somebody else. Just as Hoover recognized in 1960 that somebody was using Lee Harvey Oswald's identity to make gun purchases for Anti-Castro raid groups (when Oswald was in the USSR), so it makes sense to me that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been a CIA Agent at that time, because the CIA doesn't allow sloppy handling of identities. Instead, Oswald was a teenager, and was being groomed to be a CIA (or ONI) Agent, and he was fairly disobedient and headstrong. Lee Harvey Oswald is the likely source of his own birth certificate, which he likely gave to a "trusted" Marine (possibly Gerry Patrick Hemming) back at Atsugi. This "trusted" Marine probably jumped on an opportunity ASAP. Thus, there was not so much an Oswald Impersonator, but somebody who realized that this ID could be useful in underground business deals involving the CIA. Thus, McKeown's story.

(2) As for Loran Hall, Larry Howard and Lee Harvey Oswald -- I maintain that your theory is the one in error. Just because Silvia Odio dismissed the photos that the FBI showed her of Hall and Howard -- I don't take that as final, because IMHO Loran Hall was a sadistic thug who was terrorizing Silvia Odio. Silvia wanted assurances from the US Government that she would be protected -- but the FBI refused to give those assurances, because her story contradicted Hoover's "Lone Nut" theory 100%. So, the FBI probably didn't care if Loran Hall murdered Silvia Odio; and Silvia picked this up. THERE WAS NO WAY SILVIA WAS GOING TO RISK HER LIFE FOR HOOVER. And as for Loran Hall and Larry Howard themselves -- does it take a genius to realize that after JFK is murdered, that anybody associated with Lee Harvey Oswald would DENY EVERYTHING? Loran Hall was proven to be a xxxx -- but especially about this story when he names Larry Howard as well -- because Loran Hall also TOOK BACK HIS ENTIRE STORY. So your point, David, really has less to stand on than you thought.

(3) A case of mistaken identity can be strikingly repetitive; and even stubborn.

(4) As for the story of one Lee Oswald ordering a scope for his rifle -- I've read it, and it seems to me that YOU haven't read it, David. Nowhere is the behavior of Lee Harvey Oswald indicated. It's a normal guy asking for a normal scope for his normal rifle, and his name coincidentally happens to be Lee Oswald. That's the only evidence that we have. The store owner didn't even remember the guys' FACE. All we have is the NAME -- and the name wasn't rare.

(5) Who was in Whaley's cab? We must remember that by the end of 11/22/1963, Hoover and the FBI are pounding the "Lone Nut" scenario as hard as they can. Therefore, Lee Harvey Oswald can NEVER be seen as a passenger in a car -- because that would mean ACCOMPLICES. (Which was the real truth.) Instead, the FBI had to insist AT ALL TIMES that Lee Harvey Oswald ALWAYS took public transportation. THAT is why the FBI forged the Whaley cab data. THAT is why the FBI forged the Mexico City bus data -- even though Mexican Immigration records documented Lee Harvey Oswald entering and exiting Mexico as THE PASSENGER IN A CAR. And THAT is why the FBI always denied the Green Rambler.

(6) My theory that Lee Harvey Oswald always had lots and lots of TRANSPORTATION that the FBI refused to talk about is solid -- and I know the material very well. This is not some wild guess. The Double-Oswald theory sadly lumps together every case of Mistaken Identity with the actual CIA Rogue impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City, and more -- to make its hodge-podge story. Yet Oswald as a member of radical right-wing Anti-Castro groups, close to Hemming's Interpen, makes the most sense of all the data -- all of it -- including all the TRANSPORTATION resources that Lee Harvey Oswald had at his beck and call -- including private airplanes. That's not a wild guess -- that's logical inference from facts.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 17, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

If you are right about all that Paul, why is the FBI still covering up? If the document release in 2017 does not provide the material you seem certain it will, can I assume you will back down from your theory? After all, there can be no reason to keep Hoover's shenanigans secret any longer. All of your theory relies on FBI lying about nearly everything relating to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Can you prove that Lee Oswald was a 'common' name in Dallas 1963?

[Jim Hargrove]

Assassination researcher Joachim Joesten was intersted in the Landesberg case years before John Armstrong was. Here's an excerpt:

From Joachim Joesten, THE CASE AGAINST J. EDGAR HOOVER:

----------------------------<QUOTE ON>---------------------------

I have always considered this little-known case as highly characteristic of the

suppression technique employed by the FBI in its cover-up of the true facts of

the Kennedy assassination and have given a brief account of it in my first

book, Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy?

In the belief that someday a decent government in Washington will want to take

a close look at all of the sinister goings-on surrounding the murder of

President Kennedy, I now set down for the record all the information I have

about the case -- which is not an awful lot, for all my efforts to establish

contact with Landesberg have failed. I would not be surprised to learn that he

has long been dead.

On Nov. 30, 1963, the Long Island newspaper Newsday ran a story entitled, "FBI

Searches the Village for Pal of Oswald's" which began with these words:

"A Mississippi segregationist, reported to be an ex-Marine buddy of Lee H.

Oswald, President Kennedy's assassin, was hunted last night by FBI agents in

Greenwich Village. The agents hope he can fill in many of the still-murky

details surrounding Oswald's life, personality and political activities.

"Several bars and coffee-houses in the Village that cater to the college crowd

reported that FBI agents had been around and showed a color snapshot of a

dark-haired, red-bearded man in his early or mid-20s. The man was dressed in a

blue coat and wore a red scarf. Villagers said the FBI identified the man in

the snapshot as Stephen L'eandes and that he was described by agents as being

fond of creating disturbances during meetings of liberal groups in the Village.

L'eandes, who in no way has been connected with the assassination of the

President last Friday, was reported to be living either on 8th Street or

MacDougal Street in the heart of the Village. The FBI flatly refused to comment

on its search for the man. 'We are conducting an investigation into the

assassination of President Kennedy as ordered by President Johnson,' a

spokesman said.

"The FBI, it was learned, was led to the Village by another man who was said to

have called several newspapers and radio stations in the city after Oswald's

arrest and own assassination by Jack Ruby, a Dallas nightclub operator. The

man, it is reported, said that he, Oswald and L'eandes were in the Marines

together and that in 1962 Oswald and L'eandes often appeared together at

left-wing rallies to cause a disturbance. Other reports have placed Oswald in

Russia in 1962. This latest report posed another paradox, because Oswald was a

self-described Marxist and pro-Communist while L'eandes is said to be a

hard-core rightist and segregationist."

Let me stop here for a moment to say that the seeming contradiction between

reports of Oswald being in Russia in 1962 and at the same time appearing at

rallies in New York exists only on the surface and that the other "paradox" of

Oswald being a self-described Marxist in one place and a hard-core rightist and

segregationist in the other is just as illusory.

Actually this episode offers just one more corroboration of a key element in

the Kennedy murder plot which I have discussed at great length in my book,

Oswald: The Truth, namely the existence of a False Oswald who played a

prominent part in the frame-up of the real one. At the time this man engaged in

disturbing left-wing rallies in the Village, of course, the Kennedy murder plot

and the frame-up of Lee Harvey Oswald were still far away in the future and the

man described in this Newsday story as "Oswald" was not yet consciously playing

that role. The confusion arose later because of his evident resemblance to Lee

Harvey, which is documented in detail in my book. There is no doubt in my mind

that the "Oswald" referred to in this story is the same person as the False

Oswald who in November 1963 planted a rich harvest of false clues against Lee

Harvey Oswald and whom I have identified as Larry Crafard, Jack Ruby's handyman

(for further details, see Oswald: The Truth). Reverting now to the Newsday

story, it goes on as follows:

"A man by the name of L'eandes made headlines twice in the Village Voice, a

weekly community paper, by allegedly causing disturbances. In Dec. 1961, he

allegedly heckled speakers at a rally called to urge Mark Lane, a Democrat, to

run for Congress. In January 1962, a Voice story reported that a L'eandes was

punched at PS 41 during a meeting called to protest violence to a rabbi in the

Village. L'eandes was quoted as describing himself as 'a former US Marine who

is trying to be heard on vital American issues.' Police of the Charles Street

Station said they knew nothing about L'eandes. It was learned that the FBI had

shown police his picture although police denied this -- apparently at the FBI's

request."

Let's recapitulate a few salient points point we proceed with the Landesberg

story.

It is December 1961 and a heckler who calls himself Yves L'eandes is making

quite a splash in the Village; he does so again in January 1962 and the

occasion suggests that he approves of violence to rabbis. He is dark-haired,

bearded, and dresses conspicuously in a blue coat and a red scarf. Most

distinctively, he is a Mississippi segregationist.

The New York Post, also on Nov. 30, 1963, published a similar story entitled,

"Racist Linked to Lee Oswald Hunted Here," which gave these additional details:

". . . The man the FBI is looking for has been described as about 5 foot 10,

slender build, handsome, with brown hair and a large brush-type mustache. He is

said to have once described himself as being a member of the Magnolia Rifles,

reportedly a Mississippi segregationist group. He has been a frequent figure in

the Village during the last two years and has been involved in a number of

brawls over racial issues."

Now we turn again to Newsday, issue of Dec. 6, 1963:

"A 23-year-old self-styled student of philosophy, accused of hoaxing the FBI

into a massive two-week search for a non-existent Greenwich Village buddy of

President Kennedy's assassin, was arrested yesterday and committed for

psychiatric observation at Bellevue Hospital. FBI agents arrested Stephen

Harris Landesberg yesterday morning at his Greenwich Village apartment,

reported to be at 66 W. 10th St. They accused him of triggering a widespread

FBI manhunt for a Stephen Yves L'Andres,* who supposedly was closely associated

with Lee Harvey Oswald during the assassin's stay in New York in 1962. The FBI

had been led to believe L'Andres could shed important light on the Nov. 22

assassination.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

*The name of "L'Andres" appears only in this Newsday story. The New York Times,

in a brief account of the arrest (see following page), referred to the man as

L'eandes, as Newsday itself had done in its [sic] of Nov. 30.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"An FBI agent said that on the morning of Nov. 23, shortly after Oswald was

officially charged in Dallas, Tex., with Kennedy's murder, Landesberg came to

the bureau's office at 201 E. 69th Street here. 'He identified himself at that

time as James F. Rizzuto,' the agent said. As Rizzuto, the FBI said, Landesberg

spun a cloak and dagger story around the political activities of 'ex-Marine

buddies' Oswald and L'Andres.

"'Acting on that information, the FBI agent said, 'we initiated a widespread

investigation to try and verify the allegation. On completion of that

investigation today (Thursday), we determined that Landesberg, under the alias

of Rizzuto, had perpetrated a hoax.' He said the FBI was convinced that

L'Andres was Landesberg's own creation.

"Landesberg identified himself yesterday as a student of philosophy at Columbia

University. However, Columbia University officials said that Landesberg was not

registered as a student, either under his own name or under his alias.

Landesberg was arraigned yesterday before Federal Judge John M. Cannella. The

charge, making false statements to the FBI, is a felony and conviction could

bring five years imprisonment and a $10,000 fine. Landesberg was hold in

$10,000 bail [sic] and he voluntarily agreed to commit himself for psychiatric

observation. The FBI named Landesberg's parents as Mr. and Mrs. George

Landesberg of 111-50 76th Rd., Forest Hills."

Finally, here is an item that appeared in the New York Times, also on Dec. 6,

1963:

"A 23-year-old man who had led the Federal Bureau of Investigation on a futile

search for a supposed friend of Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested yesterday on a

charge of giving false information. Stephen H. Landesberg of 66 West 10th

Street was later committed by Federal Judge John M. Cannella to Bellevue

Hospital for ten days for psychiatric examination.

"Landesberg, also known as Stephen Yves L'Eandes and James F. Rizzuto, was

discharged from the Marine Corps after eight months for a physical disability.

His service conduct was officially described as 'bizarre' and 'unusual.'

"On Nov. 23, the day after the assassination of President Kennedy, Landesberg

went to the New York office of the FBI. He said his name was Rizzuto and he had

served with Oswald and L'Eandes in the Marines. He said L'Eandes was a paid

agitator. At least once, he said, Oswald photographed a disturbance created by

L'Eandes.

"The agency began an intensive search for L'Eandes in Greenwich Village only to

discover, it said, that Landesberg, L'Eandes and Rizzuto were the same person."

What is one to make of all this?

In the first place, it is an established fact that a man who called himself

Yves L'Eandes lived and agitated in the Village in 1961-62. I went to the

office of the Village Voice and checked in their files the two issues referred

to in Newsday of Nov. 30, 1963, and found that they effectively reported the

disturbances created by L'Eandes.

The FBI, then, clearly and deliberately lied in alleging that L'Eandes was

Landesberg's "own creation" and was indeed Landesberg himself. Or can the

Bureau explain how come the purported figment of Landesberg's imagination in

November 1963 had happened to get two mentions in a local newspaper almost two

years before the Kennedy assassination?

Secondly, the FBI says that Landesberg, when he called at its New York office

on Nov. 23, "identified himself" as James F. Rizzuto. Is it credible that the

Federal Bureau of Investigation, in a matter involving the murder of a

President, should take the word of a stranger who drops in to volunteer

information that he is such-and-such a person, without proper verification? It

is not; in fact it is utterly unbelievable.

If Landesberg, in the words of the FBI, "identified" himself as Rizzuto, then

he had papers to prove that he was Rizzuto, that's for sure. But -- how could

he have such papers? The reference in the FBI statement to a "cloak and dagger"

story explains everything. "Cloak and dagger," in modern usage, means just one

thing: undercover work for an intelligence agency.

Lee Harvey Oswald was for years an undercover operative for the CIA, as I have

documented in detail in my book, Marina Oswald. He was trained in the Marine

Corps for his assignment to the Soviet Union and it can be taken for granted

that some of his buddies in the Corps were undergoing similar training.

Landesberg, alias Rizzuto, apparently was one of them and if he was in a

position to identify himself as Rizzuto, it was because the CIA had issued to

him identification papers in that name -- just as Oswald used the CIA cover of

Alek J. Hidell and possessed documentary evidence to that effect.

In the third place, it is evident that the FBI would not have launched a

massive search, lasting two weeks, for a "non-existent" person without some

pretty solid data to go upon. If Landesberg was an impostor, the FBI, with its

immense facilities for research and verification, would have spotted him as a

phony within hours, if not minutes. It is a certainty, therefore, that the

information which Landesberg had imparted to the FBI was both credible and of

great importance to set in motion the vast sweep through the Village described

in Newsday and the Post.

Why then did the FBI suddenly "determine" that the whole thing was a hoax and

that the elusive L'Eandes was none other than Landesberg himself?

Again, the answer must be sought in the murky background of the Kennedy

assassination and the heavy involvement of the CIA in this crime. Had the FBI

pursued the lead offered to them by Landesberg, a lead that pointed to

Mississippi segregationists and "Magnolia Riflemen" as well as to the CIA

nucleus in the Marine Corps to which Oswald belonged, it would have gotten into

deep waters indeed. It was so much easier to turn around and arrest the

informant on a charge of hoaxing the FBI.

Such a case, however, would be hazardous to present in a court of law and so a

convenient exit was found: a "voluntary" commitment of the alleged offender to

a mental institution. This is indeed the favorite technique of suppression

employed by the masterminds of the Kennedy murder cover-up. It obviates the

need for proving in court what can't be proven. And the only exit from such an

institution is, often enough, to the graveyard.

One more observation is in order. Landesberg, judging by his name and also the

photo of him which appeared in the Dec. 6 issue of Newsday, appears to be

Jewish and is clean-shaven. Would he be identical with a racist and

segregationist from Mississippi -- and a bearded one at that?

--------------------------------<QUOTE OFF>--------------------------

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim Hargrove said:

Assassination researcher Joachim Joesten was intersted in the Landesberg case years before John Armstrong was. Here's an excerpt:

Now I know where Armstrong got 90 percent of his Landesberg stuff!

Edited June 16, 2015 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Jim Hargrove]

In a book called The Glories of the Early '60s, author Ed Sanders provides information that shows that the actor Steve Landesberg and the agitator Steve Landesberg were both working together as a team. Here is a summary of the information from the book:

Al Fowler was a National Merit Scholar in High School, and later a poet. In the early 1960s Fowler knew and associated with Steve Landesberg, and saw him cause disruptions at various liberal rallies using a strong Southern accent. On one occasion, Landesberg talked at length about Castro, Cuba, and the FPCC. He discussed his family, life in New Orleans, and talked in detail about the French Quarter.

A couple of years later, Fowler saw Landesberg again, now wearing a nice suit but no longer sporting a Southern accent. Landesberg offered Fowler $600 to fly to Montreal and bring back a small package, contents unknown. Fowler refused the offer, and clearly stated that the man he knew creating disturbances at liberal rallies was Steve Landesberg, the actor.

The account of Fowler and Landesberg is described in the book The Glories of the Early '60s, by Ed Sanders.

http://www.woodstockjournal.com/pdf/AlFowlerA.pdf

Like John said, more research on the Landesberg matter is needed. It is much more beneficial to spend time on research to discover and establish facts, than it is to write essays with a pre-conceived outcome and speculative conclusions.

[Greg Parker]

write essays with a pre-conceived outcome and speculative conclusions.

You mean like writing a list of all the anomalies and assigning some to LHO and others to "Harvey" without once ever trying to rule out alternative solutions?

Like continually begging the question by incorporating your conclusion in your opening statement?

http://gregparke4.wix.com/hardlyleedotnut

[Tom Hume]

Marina Oswald was born July 17, 1941, which would have made her "22" years old at the time of the Salvation Army incident. It would be interesting to know if she had given her age as "21".

"Salvation Army" is 13 letters, the preferred puzzle length of Oswald's "ICO" group of anagram puzzlers. "Salvation Army" anagrams to:

"MARINA STAY 21. LO"

(The number "21" was translated from the letter "V". See footnote #1)

"MARINA STAY 21. LO" decodes and anagrams to (#2):

"ICO MO. VV"

"MO" is Method of Operation, and "VV" is V Vaganov.

"ICO MO. VV" decodes and anagrams to (3):

"IVB"

"IVB" is Igor V Baganov (Vaganov), one of the two puzzle makers. Richard Case Nagell was the other.

My hypothesis predicts that many, if not most, of the hard-to-explain Oswald sightings and events were stunts being pulled by Oswald's group, "ICO", to create enigmas, enigmatic events with ICO's puzzles imbedded in them.

ICO had two goals; one was tell their story of the assassination, and the other was to prevent it. And both with a touch of enigmatic flamboyance.

Tom

Footnote #1 Letter/Number translation device:

(A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25)

Footnote #2 "MARINA STAY 21. LO"

MARINA STAYVL = 001010 010011, and, 110101 101100, plus tag O

Yield: CVI

LOVYAT SANIRA = 101001 001010, and, 010110 110101, plus tag M

Yield: IOVN, Total yield: CVOIOVM

Footnote #3 "ICO MO. VV"

ICOMOV = 000001, and, 111110, plus tag V

Yield: BV

VVOMOC = 110000, and, 001111, plus tag I

Yield: I. Total yield: IVB

Footnote #4 Bonus Material:

"TEST DRIVE MERC" is 13 letters, and anagrams to "I.V. TEST RED MERC". Once anagrammed, it turns into a large puzzle to be solved and learned from.

"JOHN HURT. Ral NC" is 13 letters, and anagrams to "ALT JOHN H RUN. RC" ("Alt John H" would be John Hoover, and "RC" would be Richard Case).

"JOHN HURT. Ral NC" also anagrams to, "H. L. HUNT JR CO-RAN". Once anagrammed, this likewise turns into large informational puzzle.

"HISTORIC DIARY" is 13 letters, and anagrams to "RICHARDS 88 TOY". There are 88 puzzles to be solved in Oswald's Historic Diary.

"HISTORIC DIARY" also anagrams to, "DAISY RR HIT. ICO". Kennedy being mortally wounded by a BB gun is a large topic of the ICO puzzles. I assume that the Daisy Red Ryder would be the one found, not the one actually used.

"LO CURTAIN RODS" is 13 letters, and anagrams to, "RCN ULTRA: S ODIO".

("MICRO DOTS" is not 13 letters, but anagrams to "RC 'TM': S ODIO" ("RC" is Richard Case, and "TM" is Trade Mark)).

"LO CURTAIN RODS" also anagrams to, "LO, RR CUSTODIAN". If Red Ryder was what was in Oswald's short bag on the morning of the 22nd, the puzzles have not revealed this to my satisfaction yet.

"HANDS OFF CUBA" is 12 letters, but it has an exclamation point at the end, and in ICO puzzles, the E.P. is to be regarded as an upside-down letter "i" - the 13th letter. The puzzle itself tells us so, and I have done an entire post on this puzzle trick.

"I'M JUST A PATSY" is likewise 12 letters, but the puzzle itself tells us to add an exclamation point.

"LEE OSWALD GUNS" is 13 letters and might be an intended caption for one of the backyard photos. It anagrams to, "W USES LO DANGLE", and "W" would be the first initial of W G Banister.

"RICHARD NAGELL" is 13 letters, and it anagrams to, "RCN, A HIDELL RAG". The meaning of "RAG" here would be a stunt, or a prank.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Tom Hume