Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

[Jim Hargrove]

Jim Hargrove said:

The FBI gave the Warren Commission photographic copies of documents rather than originals, and the HSCA's own expert witnesses explained how copies can be manipulated to "prove" whatever is wanted. Now the question becomes, Would the FBI lie and cheat to prove whatever it wanted? And the answer, then and now, is a resounding yes.

I don't have time right now to answer this or the previous post in detail. I would just point out that nothing on your web page proves the FBI did anything to the documents. You suggest they had them so they could have done something to them. But you have no proof of this. Of course, the minute the FBI or whoever has something that helps the H&L theory, that person or entity suddenly becomes as good as gold. Lurkers can go here for an example (second half of the article), in this case involving the "fake" Marguerite, who according to Armstrong was normally the biggest xxxx in the world:

http://wtracyparnell.com/marguerite-and-the-fort-worth-press/

We have proof that the FBI allowed the testimony of its own expert witness, James Cadigan, to be altered to hide the fact that he mistakenly admitted "Oswald's possessions" had been secretly sent to the FBI in Washington from Dallas PD in the middle of the night of November 22/23, before being secretly returned to Dallas a few days later, before being publicly sent to Washington the evening of Nov. 26.

I still can't post graphics here, but the altered testimony is shown at the link below, just a little over halfway down the page:

http://harveyandlee.net/FBI/FBI.html

During the secret trip to Washington FBI headquarters, the 225 items of evidence cataloged by Dallas Police suddenly grew to 455 items, including the dramatic introduction of a Minox light meter (and the disappearance of a Minox spy camera), along with a Warrior stamp kit and W-2 forms from all three of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" employers from his pre-Marine teen-aged years, According to IBM archivist Dawn Stanford, all three of these W-2 forms appeared to be "typed on the same machine," which she described as having an unusual font under close inspection. The same three W-2 forms, created while "Oswald's possessions" were secretly in FBI hands, showed income that failed to appear on "Oswald's" lifetime earnings Social Security report. When SSA reported information on Oswald's lifetime income to the HSCA, it included "three pages from the Warren Report" to cover his pre-Marine income. No one from your side will admit it, but I suspect this evidence would stand up in court to this day. That's probably enough for now.

[David Josephs]

Jim,

They aint gonna learn what they dont wanna know...

Our efforts do allow those not overly familar with the H&L situation to see more than just a bad series of rebuttal arguments offered without corroboration or authentication (and no mention of speculation).

When the argument is that the attendance was counted from March 53 thru the summer to Sept 14th even though no summer school was attended or even mentioned in any of the evidence - all we can do is shake our heads.

When we post the actual testimony of the woman, Odio, and the rebuttal misstates what she said and then builds from there, all anyone can do is shake their heads.

Those who dont want to get it, wont.

Those who do will continue to work at it...

Those who are unsure will not be helped by listening to others... they need to do some of the work themselves... and that scares a lot of them off.

Anna Lewis repeatedly says "I met Lee Oswald in February 1962" at Lafayette park around the corner from 544 Camp when Oswald was in Minsk with Marina while having their first child.

She doesn't seem to be lying about it... but maybe she is, just like Palmer, Kudlaty, Rouse, Felde, Gorsky, Odio, Donovan and witness after witness who met a Lee Oswald who was not the same as the man Ruby killed in some cases, or specifically not the man Ruby killed in others... but it's not likely.

Let's try to put this simply: THEY DON'T CARE ... anything we do after that understanding is for our own edification and for those who do. We've stood up to these bullies and have won... all they have left is to repeat the same tired old arguments about tonsils and bad math and look as foolish as anyone supporting the SBT/Ozzie did it theories ad nauseum.

If this forum has accepted the current situation as the new "normal" then it's just a waiting game again. They come and go.... I will address serious questions from serious people... but no longer from a group which can't seem to add or understand anything about statistics or research. They're just not worth the time.

Take care Jim... you know I will help whenever I can.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim Hargrove said:

No one from your side will admit it, but I suspect this evidence would stand up in court to this day. That's probably enough for now.

I will say to you what I say to everyone that has "proof" of a plot. If you really and truly believe that, take it to Jefferson Morley who is an individual who will listen to what you have to say if you can convince him. He is not "working for the CIA" or "in on the plot". And he has the ear of several reporters so there are no excuses. The problem I see for you is when you tell him your theory of two Oswalds, he will probably bolt for the door as he won't believe you. Nor do the majority of CT minded people nor would the majority of any demographic group you can name. Because the H&L thing flat out didn't happen.

Edited June 12, 2015 by W. Tracy Parnell

[David G. Healy]

Jim Hargrove said:

No one from your side will admit it, but I suspect this evidence would stand up in court to this day. That's probably enough for now.

I will say to you what I say to everyone that has "proof" of a plot. If you really and truly believe that, take it to Jefferson Morley who is an individual who will listen to what you have to say if you can convince him. He is not "working for the CIA" or "in on the plot". And he has the ear of several reporters so there are no excuses. The problem I see for you is when you tell him your theory of two Oswalds, he will probably bolt for the door as he won't believe you. Nor do the majority of CT minded people nor would the majority of any demographic group you can name. Because the H&L thing flat out didn't happen.

and who crowned Morley the king of lone nut openmindedness? Still that clever sense of humor eh, Tracy?

BTW are you still posting from that Wendy's way up north.... Taking pot shots at non-moving sandbags?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jim Hargrove said:

No one from your side will admit it, but I suspect this evidence would stand up in court to this day. That's probably enough for now.

I will say to you what I say to everyone that has "proof" of a plot. If you really and truly believe that, take it to Jefferson Morley who is an individual who will listen to what you have to say if you can convince him. He is not "working for the CIA" or "in on the plot". And he has the ear of several reporters so there are no excuses. The problem I see for you is when you tell him your theory of two Oswalds, he will probably bolt for the door as he won't believe you. Nor do the majority of CT minded people nor would the majority of any demographic group you can name. Because the H&L thing flat out didn't happen.

and who crowned Morley the king of lone nut openmindedness? Still that clever sense of humor eh, Tracy?

BTW are you still posting from that Wendy's way up north.... Taking pot shots at non-moving sandbags?

If you follow Morley's blog you can see that he has become a conspiracy theorist in my view. In any case, he is not a "lone nutter". I am not saying any of this to be sarcastic or funny. If Armstrong believes he has evidence that would stand up in court, he should take it to the media and Morley would seem to be the prime candidate since he has written extensively on the assassination for years. But as I said, I think Armstrong and company are just blowing smoke and I think most people agree with me.

[Steven Gaal]

But as I said, I think Armstrong and company are just blowing smoke and I think most people agree with me. // Parnell

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Bill Kelly Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:41 PM
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There are two Donald Nortons, Donald O. Norton, the guy Armstrong and Kathleen have been chasing, and Donald P. Norton, the former Air Force homosexual who was recruited to inform on gay servicemen. There is already a thread going on Donald O. Norton, and this one concerns the other one - Donald P. Norton.

I bring this up because of the information developed from the Armstrong files related to J. M. Langton, the Dallas SA ONI who ran informants, including one who was homosexual and was reporting on gay servicemen, just as DPN was. Although DPN says he thought he was working for CIA, the name CIA never came up, and I believe that is Garrison or his investigators who put together reports on DPN who surmised that. Instead, I believe that he was recruited by some branch of military intelligence, probably Air Force though it could have been Navy or even Army or Army Reserves, because the CIA would normally pass on those kind of assignments to the FBI or some other military intelligence agency that is legally allowed to operate domestically.

Also relevant is the case of Martin and Mitchell, two former Navy guys who worked for NSA and defected to USSR via Mexico City and Cuba and were suspected of being homosexual, but apparently were not.

See: The Worst Internal Scandal in NSA History Was Blamed on Cold War Defectors’ Homosexuality - Page 1 - News - Seattle - Seattle Weekly (NOT ON LINE ANYMORE GAAL)

DONALD P. NORTON

As summarized from interview notes taken by investigators(Charles Ward/R. Billings) for the New Orleans District Attorney (NODA) andnewspaper clips, released by the NARA under the JFK Act.

Born on January 23, 1932, a native of Columbus, Georgia, Donald P. Norton wasraised and educated in Georgia before entering the U.S.Air Force in October, 1949. A musician who played the organ and self-describedTV personality, Norton enlisted with the understanding he would play in the AirForce Band, which he did until 1952 when he was discharged over what hedescribed as a "personal involvement" and an "indiscretion"that led to him being sentenced to six months in a federal prison.

Returning to Georgia he continued his musicaleducation at a conservatory where he earned a bachelor and master degrees andin 1957 a job playing at the officers club at Fort Benning, Columbus, Georgia, where he performed forand met generals and other officers and officials. While there he wasapproached by a man representing the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), who told him "wewant to know who does what to whom," which the NODA investigator surmised,"the obvious implication being that it would his duty to ferret outhomosexuals in high military places." The money, Norton said, was good,$500 a month, and Norton continued what he called his "witch hunting"assignment until 1958, when the colonel who employed him was charged withembezzlement.

Norton thenmoved to Atlanta where he performed onweekends at the officers club, whose secretary Norton was convinced, was also agovernment agent, continuing to turn over information about homosexuals, proof"based on experience."

In early 1958he received a phone call from his contact who asked him if he would like totake a trip to Cuba. He met"Hugh Pharris" at the Easter Airline ticket counter at the Atlanta Airport. "Pharris" gavehim a case of phonograph records, saying "it is in the jackts,"samples of which he was to take to Carlo Media, a Cuban television personality,who was also working for the CIA at the time."Pharris" was described as a man who wore sun glasses and a verysloppy wig, who Norton is convinced was David Ferrie. A young lady was withhim, Carlotta Roth, a dancer at the Domino Lounge in Atlanta. After traveling to Cuba, Norton returned to Georgia via Miami and New York and reported to his CIA contact in Atlanta.

Norton saidhis next assignment was to infiltrate the Fulton County jail, where he was placedin the same cell with Robert Bolling, accused of dynamiting a synagogue. Otherassignments were more his specialty, to determine the existence of homosexualsin government jobs.

In 1960,while on a pleasure trip to New Orleans, Norton said he went to the My-O-MyClub, a homosexual hangout, where he saw "Hugh Pharris" (aka DavidFerrie), though he didn't break operational security and talk to him.

According tothe NODA investigation report of the interview with Norton, "…it should benoted that the man's (Norton's) physical appearance and his behavior indicateat a glance his sexual nature. A man of rather delicate features, slightlyoverweight, he is extremely nervous, a chain smoker, which may well be explainedby the fact that he is indeed frightened. On the other hand, he is afast-talking, well rehearsed witness, although his testimony is often confusingdue to his penchant for inconsequential gossip. He has a very inflated egoabout his musical talents and his ability to decipher weaknesses of others. Hedescribes himself as a passive homosexual who is really a bisexual, althoughthe latter terminology must be considered doubtful. On observation it must bestated that it seems unlikely that a man of such homosexual tendencies would beemployed by the intelligence agency, but, as he described the nature of hiswork, this was exactly the reason they hired him. He described the reason forgoing to work for the agency as two-fold. One, 'they had something on me,' he says,and two, 'the money was good.'"

Norton saidhe was paid on an assignment-by-assignment basis, received his orders by phonefrom a man who was only identified as "the Captain," and never heardthe term "CIA" by the initials used to describe theagency, and the first reference was the last reference to the company. He wastightly insulated from other CIA operatives and only knowsof a few others who have worked for the agency.

In September,1962, Norton said he was given the assignment of delivering $50,000 to theHotel Yamajel, in Monterray, Mexico. Driving in his own 1956Buick, he registered under his own name.

According tothe NODA investigator's report, "It should be noted here that Norton'sknowledge of Cuban policy of this country is extremely vague. He is able totheorize as if it were some revelation that the United States or CIA was behind the overthrowof Batista, but then when Castro threw out the CIA, it in turn, and the U.S. government turned againstCastro. He does however say that Carlo Media, the CIA-employed Cuban is now ina Castro prison, so he thinks. He says that after the Castro overthrow his onlyassignment involving Cuba was this courier trip toMonterray to turn over $50,000 to Harvey Lee…"

Afterregistering at the Yamajel Hotel, Norton said he was met by "HarveyLee" before he could even get to his room. They went into the bar and hada few beers. Norton described "Harvey Lee" as "a man of slightbuild who dressed casually, who appeared identical to Oswald except for thefact that his hair was not as thin as the hair of the man he saw in picturesidentified as Lee Harvey Oswald."

Norton alsonoted that "Harvey Lee" refused to look him in the eye. When askedwhere he was from, Norton recalled the answer, he thinks, was New Orleans. In return for the caseof money, in return Norton was given a case of documents in manila envelops,"the nature of which he does not know."

FromMonterray, Norton said he then drove to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where he became atelevision personality and played at the bar of the Georgian Terracerestaurant. "There he was met by a man he can only describe as resemblingOral Roberts, the evangelist, and says this man came to him and used the codeidentification 'the weather is very warm in Tulsa," and Norton turned overthe documents to him in the parking lot, where the man was driving aVolkswagon.

Returning tothe United States, Norton was arrested at the behest of Albert Penn of FivePoints, Alabama, who Norton knew as a homosexual, and from whom he receivedsome of his instructions. Penn accused Norton of stealing checks, but he wasacquitted of the charge and released.

In 1965Norton went to Albany, Georgia, where he was contactedby "the Captain," who may be also known as "Del Merton." InAlbany in 1966 he saw a man he now knows to beClay Shaw with James A. Gray, an extreme right-wing political power, talkingtogether at the Double Gate Country Club. Gray then offered to help establishNorton in Albany with a $6,000 loan, which was ostensiblyand surreptitiously repaid by the CIA. Norton described Gary as a dangerous person andmoneyman behind the Continental Room, where Gordon Leonard was the front man.Norton later crossed paths with Clay Shaw once again at the Domino Bar in Atlanta.

In Albany, Norton was told torecruit the services of an ex-Marine police officer, John Stickler, and afriend, Jack C. White, Jr., but failed to follow through on the assignment.

In lateNovember 1966 Norton was instructed to go to Freeport, Grand Bahama Island, where he was to get thenames of the homosexuals working at the missile tracking station on Grand Bahama, his last assignment forthe CIA. After a week he returned to Miami where he called hiscontact, a "Mr. Green," who informed him that "something was brewingin New Orleans and…he should take along, quiet vacation."

According tothe NODA report, "Norton claims he had no idea as to the nature of the New Orleans development, and that hehad no idea why he was being told to take this vacation. It worried him a greatdeal, so he went on a long circuitous trip attempting to find out what washappening, shy he had been summarily dismissed, so to speak. He suspected thathe had done something wrong but did not know the nature of the misdeed. Hefirst went to Key West to contact a CIA friend there, but wasunsuccessful. He returned to Miami but was unable to reachGreen again. He then drove to Savannna, and by this time was really frightened.He got in a plane and flew to Dallas and tried to contact aman named Stanley Walsh, who he had known in Houston, a man he describes as aformer trapeze artist, a former paratrooper who had been working for theagency…"

Flying to Honolulu, Norton contacted aretired naval captain, a doctor then in private practice, who told Norton toforget the problem. Another CIA contact, Bill Rusk, camefrom Texas, an alcoholic with Mafia connections whoran a liquor store in the Pioneer Hotel, who told him, "Join the party orget out."

From thereNorton went to Canada to hide out, butinexplicitly talked to a reporter, John Taylor of the British Columbia VancoverSun, requesting that Taylor put him in contact withthe New Orleans District Attorney's office. On August 5, 1967, the headlineread: "AMERICAN, 'NOWHERE ELSE TO GO' COMES HERE TO TELLFANTASTIC TALE LINKS CIA WITH OSWALD, CLAYSHAW."

"A linkbetween Lee Harvey Oswald, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the Central IntelligenceAgency is claimed by a man now in Vancover. Donald P. Norton, 35, told The Sunhe encountered all three while he was on the payroll of the CIA, the U.S. espionageagency."

"Nortonhas been interviewed here and in New Orleans by officials of the New Orleansdistrict attorney Jim Garrision, whose investigation has been questioned bymany sources, alleged a conspiracy between Shaw and Oswald in the assassinationof former U.S. president John F. Kennedy."

"…Nortonfirst came to see The Sun, July 8. Since then many details of Norton's storyhave been confirmed. But the authenticity of his central claims defy verificationby normal newspaper investigation…"

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Bernice Moore quoting William Weston article
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Monterrey, Mexico (September 1962) - Donald P. Norton first told Jim =
Garrison about his contacts with Lee Harvey Oswald in July 1967. Born in =
1932 and educated in Georgia, Norton entered the Air Force in 1949 to be =
a musician in the Air Force Band in Washington, D.C. Personal =
indiscretions led to his being discharged in 1952. In 1957 he got a job =
playing at the officers club at Fort Benning, Georgia.=20

It was at this time that a CIA man recruited Norton to spy on generals =
and other high officials who attended parties at which he played and =
point out any homosexuals among them.=20

In 1958, he was given the assignment to contact a man named Hugh =
Pharris. The meeting took place at the airport in Atlanta, at which time =
Pharris gave Norton a sum of money to transport to Cuba. Pharris was an =
alias for David Ferrie, a man who knew Lee Harvey Oswald, Guy Bannister =
and Clay Shaw. Ferrie was wearing sunglasses and wore a very sloppy wig. =
He gave Norton a sample case of phonograph records, which he wanted =
Norton to take to Carlo Media, a Cuban TV star. Media was also working =
for the CIA at this time against the Batista regime. Ferrie said "it" =
was in the case, meaning $150,000 that he was to deliver to Media. After =
he made the delivery, he returned to Atlanta and reported to his CIA =
contact.=20

In 1960 Norton went to New Orleans and saw Ferrie a second time at a =
club with a reputation of being a homosexual hangout.=20

Another assignment took him to the Hotel Yamajel in Monterrey, Mexico in =
September of 1962. As soon as he registered at the hotel, in his own =
name, he was immediately met by a man named Harvey Lee. They went into =
the bar and had a couple of beers. Harvey Lee was slight in build and =
casually dressed. He refused to look Norton in the eye. He said he came =
from New Orleans. Harvey Lee was identical to Lee Harvey Oswald except =
his hair was not as thin as the Oswald displayed by the Dallas police =
after the assassination of President Kennedy. Norton turned over $50,000 =
to Oswald for revolutionary activities against Castro. In return Oswald =
gave Norton a case of documents contained in manila envelopes, the =
nature of which Norton did not know. Norton then drove from Monterey to =
Calgary, Alberta, where he became a TV personality.=20

Norton also knew Clay Shaw. In 1965, Norton went to Albany, GA, where he =
was contacted by his CIA friend. It was in Albany, that he saw Shaw =
talking with James A. Gray, an extreme right-winger, at a country club =
known as the Double Gate Country Club. After speaking with Shaw, Gray =
spoke with Norton and offered to get Norton established in Albany by =
lending him $6,000. Norton took the loan, which was paid back for him by =
way of a surreptitious payment, presumably the CIA.=20

Evaluation: The only source for establishing the fact that Oswald was in =
Monterrey in September 1962 is Norton, a CIA agent. Since intelligence =
agents of all sorts are notoriously unreliable, this reduces the quality =
of the data of this episode. It does appear that Norton was trying to =
get out of the CIA and by doing so he had to expose himself as a =
homosexual, a hazardous thing to do at that time. This fact would =
justify including him in this catalog. Data rating: 3.

At the time Norton encountered Oswald, records show that Oswald was =
working in Fort Worth for the Leslie Welding Company.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. Parnell I feel compelled to ask this question, " You are a musician, did you play at any military bases ??" THANKS STEVE GAAL

Edited June 12, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Jon G. Tidd]

Jefferson Morley is a journalist. He seeks facts. He interprets what he finds. He analyzes. He does not synthesize.

[Greg Parker]

Jefferson Morley is a journalist. He seeks facts. He interprets what he finds. He analyzes. He does not synthesize.

Q: What "facts" did he seek about Mimi Alford before jumping on her bandwagon?

A: None. Zero. Zilch.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Greg Parker

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Jefferson Morley is a journalist. He seeks facts. He interprets what he finds. He analyzes. He does not synthesize.

Everyone seems to have their opinion on Morley. My point is that I believe if someone came to him with firm evidence of a conspiracy, which Hargrove claims to have, that Morley would be willing to listen. He is already pushing his own theory that Joannides was involved somehow in the JFK conspiracy. So if Hargrove could convince him he would listen IMO.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Steven Gaal wrote:

Mr. Parnell I feel compelled to ask this question, " You are a musician, did you play at any military bases ??"

Only once, back in the eighties at Camp Lejeune, NC and I really enjoyed it. I am semi-retired and I now play at nursing homes etc. I just got back a while ago from a job in a memory care facility.

[Bernie Laverick]

Jim,

They aint gonna learn what they dont wanna know...

Our efforts do allow those not overly familar with the H&L situation to see more than just a bad series of rebuttal arguments offered without corroboration or authentication (and no mention of speculation).

When the argument is that the attendance was counted from March 53 thru the summer to Sept 14th even though no summer school was attended or even mentioned in any of the evidence - all we can do is shake our heads.

When we post the actual testimony of the woman, Odio, and the rebuttal misstates what she said and then builds from there, all anyone can do is shake their heads.

Those who dont want to get it, wont.

Those who do will continue to work at it...

Those who are unsure will not be helped by listening to others... they need to do some of the work themselves... and that scares a lot of them off.

Anna Lewis repeatedly says "I met Lee Oswald in February 1962" at Lafayette park around the corner from 544 Camp when Oswald was in Minsk with Marina while having their first child.

She doesn't seem to be lying about it... but maybe she is, just like Palmer, Kudlaty, Rouse, Felde, Gorsky, Odio, Donovan and witness after witness who met a Lee Oswald who was not the same as the man Ruby killed in some cases, or specifically not the man Ruby killed in others... but it's not likely.

Let's try to put this simply: THEY DON'T CARE ... anything we do after that understanding is for our own edification and for those who do. We've stood up to these bullies and have won... all they have left is to repeat the same tired old arguments about tonsils and bad math and look as foolish as anyone supporting the SBT/Ozzie did it theories ad nauseum.

If this forum has accepted the current situation as the new "normal" then it's just a waiting game again. They come and go.... I will address serious questions from serious people... but no longer from a group which can't seem to add or understand anything about statistics or research. They're just not worth the time.

Take care Jim... you know I will help whenever I can.

Maybe you haven't noticed David...but nobody actually cares! No one needs to ask you anything; they can read the full idiocy right here on these threads.

So how many people have you 'converted' to H&L then David? Six? Seven? Anyone?

If you three keep at it for another twenty years, at this rate you should have nearly 100 followers...

[Jim Hargrove]

Jim,

They aint gonna learn what they dont wanna know...

Our efforts do allow those not overly familar with the H&L situation to see more than just a bad series of rebuttal arguments offered without corroboration or authentication (and no mention of speculation).

When the argument is that the attendance was counted from March 53 thru the summer to Sept 14th even though no summer school was attended or even mentioned in any of the evidence - all we can do is shake our heads.

When we post the actual testimony of the woman, Odio, and the rebuttal misstates what she said and then builds from there, all anyone can do is shake their heads.

Yeah, DJ, it's pretty creepy. Parker's taking a poll now, no doubt lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks to drive you and me and Steve out of town. I say let's just keep trying to present the facts until they kill us! They can't do much more than that, even rhetorically.

A few people lurking around might be looking for something other than the usual bs. If I escape Parker's wrath for another day or two, I've got some pretty good posts lined up.

[Paul Brancato]

There may have been a real Oswald project, but if there was it certainly did not go back to LHO' childhood. I'd prefer not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and am not part of some scheme to discredit Harvey and Lee proponents or discourage them from posting here.

[Greg Parker]

Jim,

They aint gonna learn what they dont wanna know...

Our efforts do allow those not overly familar with the H&L situation to see more than just a bad series of rebuttal arguments offered without corroboration or authentication (and no mention of speculation).

When the argument is that the attendance was counted from March 53 thru the summer to Sept 14th even though no summer school was attended or even mentioned in any of the evidence - all we can do is shake our heads.

When we post the actual testimony of the woman, Odio, and the rebuttal misstates what she said and then builds from there, all anyone can do is shake their heads.

Yeah, DJ, it's pretty creepy. Parker's taking a poll now, no doubt lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks to drive you and me and Steve out of town. I say let's just keep trying to present the facts until they kill us! They can't do much more than that, even rhetorically.

A few people lurking around might be looking for something other than the usual bs. If I escape Parker's wrath for another day or two, I've got some pretty good posts lined up.

Thanks, but as my wife will attest to, I'm not God. My "wrath" won't and can't stop you doing anything.

[Jim Hargrove]

Yo, Tracy,

You have a recent article up somewhere on Steven Landesberg, which I mentioned to JA, and he asked me to post the following, which is a write-up he did years ago and felt was too long to be included in the 1000+ pages of Harvey and Lee. So he dusted it off, put in a few updates, and asked me to post it here: Sooo... uh... here 'tis....

Stephen/Steve Harris Landesberg

A number of JFK researchers, including author Carleton W. Sterling, Professor Stan Weeber (UNT, Denton, TX), attorney Carol Hewitt, and myself have written about Stephen Landesberg's real or imagined involvement with LHO in late 1961 or early 1962. (To read Mr. Sterling's article, CLICK HERE. To see Prof. Weeber's essay, USE THIS LINK.) If Landesberg was involved with (LEE) Oswald during this period it is very significant, because during this time (HARVEY) Oswald was living in the Soviet Union with his wife, Marina.

Stephen Landesberg (aka "Rizzuto" and "L'Eandes") was born Stephen Harris Landesberg on Sept., 24, 1940 in Queens, NY. After graduating from Forest Hills High School in 1957, he dropped the German/Jewish "berg" from his surname and thereafter often used the names "Steve, Steven or Stephen Landes." He attended Rutgers University from June, 1957 thru Feb., 1960 (where he was enrolled as Steve Landes and made the Dean's honor roll). According to attorney Carol Hewitt, whose practice is limited to Social Security, Landes/Landesberg received Social Security number 126-30-3500 between 1955 and 1957. This number was subsequently used by former German national Joseph Wiersch, who was born in 1900, lived in NYC, and died in 1985. Landesberg then began using SS number 126-30-3503--only one number ("3") different from his original SS number.

During the first 20 years of his life, there was no indication that Landes/Landesberg had mental issues. In Feb, 1960 he dropped out of college. His mother was concerned and asked him to visit a Park Ave. psychiatrist, Dr. Efhraim, which he did to appease his mother. For the next few months he traveled, and finally returned home on July 13. Four months later, on Nov 12, 1960, Landes/Landesberg joined the marines. Five days after joining he was interviewed by the Provost Marshall after refusing to sign a statement confirming that he had read and understood the Uniform Code of Military Justice. During the interview he continually stammered and stuttered profusely. The Provost Marshall referred him to the Psychiatric Unit where he made very revealing statements during interview. Landes/Landesberg told the psychiatrists, "I don't take stimulants or depressants. I don't believe in drugs, they are not right. You don't have to use me for a guinea pig." Guinea Pig? Landes/Landesberg was observed to be "suspicious of the physician's motivations and extremely apprehensive." They sedated him with Thorazine, diagnosed him with numerous psychiatric issues, and had him committed to the US Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. Seven months later, in June, 1961 he received an honorable discharge (for physical disability, diagnosed as a schizophrenic reaction, paranoid type, chronic) and returned home where he was treated by another Park Ave psychiatrist, Dr. Kalmanoff.

In the fall of 1961 Landes/Landesberg moved into an apartment on East 84th St, with no known employment. He later moved into an apartment at 165 E. 49th St, with roommate Michael Dunn, again with no known employment. It was during this time, according to statements given to the FBI, that he was acting as a paid agitator for the purpose of attending Jewish and liberal rallies in order to create disturbances. One year later, in Sept, 1962, it appears that his days as a paid agitator were over, and he returned to Rutgers. In Sept. 1963 Landes/Landesberg began attending Columbia and may have received an MBA in 1967. In 1978 Steve Landes was living in Florida. Information from the 1991 edition of Standard & Poor's Register of Corporations, Directors and Executives shows that "Stephen Landes," employed as Secretary of Rocky Mountain Undergarment Co., Inc., was living at 1259 N.W. 16th St. in Boco Raton. In 1998 he was living at 9775 Boca Gardens Circle, Boca Raton, and in 2000 he was living at 533 W. Gulf Beach Dr., in Eastpoint, FL. In the early 1990s Landes/Landesberg's parents (George and Edna) were living at 6100 S. Falls Circle in Ft. Lauderdale. A check with the Social Security database showed his SS number in 1993 to be 126 30 3503 (the last digit is now shown as "3," while the original SS number assigned to Landes/Landesberg in 1955-57 was 126 30 3500).

In the early 1960s Barry Gray was an announcer for WMCA radio in NYC. In late 1961 Gray interviewed a man who identified himself as "Steve L'Eandes" on one of his programs, but who was this man? During the radio interview there was no indication of speech impairment or stuttering on the part of L'Eandes. Two years later, within hours of President Kennedy's assassination, a man who identified himself as "Jim Rizzuto" called Barry Gray at WMCA radio. This man told Gray that "Steve L'Eandes" had been seen with Lee Harvey Oswald in Greenwich Village in late 1961 and early 1962. Gray invited Rizzuto to his station for an interview, and then telephoned the FBI at 1:30 AM (11/23/63) to advise the bureau of his conversation with Rizzuto. While Rizzuto was en route to the radio station, FBI agents Leonard McCoy and Wayne Morse were dispatched to WMCA radio. Rizzuto arrived at the station at 3:00 AM and was interviewed by Gray, while the FBI agents listened (Rizutto would soon tell the FBI that his real name was Steven H. Landesberg, aka "L'Eandes" and it was noted that he stuttered profusely during the interview).

It is very possible that the man who identified himself as "L'Eandes" (who had a southern accent and did not stutter) to Barry Gray in late 1961-62 , was NOT the same person who identified himself as "Jim Rizzuto" (aka L'Eandes and Steven Landesberg) two years later on Nov 23, 1963 The fact that Barry Gray did not recognize "Jim Rizzuto" (aka L'Eandes) as the same man he previously interviewed as "L'Eandes," is reason to believe these were two different people. Readers should remember that when interviewed by the FBI on 12/5/63, L'Eandes/Landesberg said the information pertaining to Lee Oswald and Earl Perry was furnished to him by someone else. In other words, the "L'Eandes" interviewed by Barry Gray in 1961-62 could have known and associated with Oswald, but the L'Eandes/Landesberg (aka Rizzuto) was paid to furnish this information during the radio interview with Gray. So, which "L'Eandes" knew and associated with Oswald? Was it the "L'Eandes" interviewed by Barry Gray in 1961 or the "L'Eandes" (aka Rizzuto, Landes, Steven H. Landesberg) who was interviewed by Gray and the FBI in 1963?

During the Nov. 23, 1963 radio interview with Barry Gray, "Rizzuto" said that he met Steve L'Eandes and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp LeJeune in the summer of 1956 (L'Eandes/Landesberg was only 15 year sold in the summer of 1956--too young to join the Marines). After his Marine Corps service he kept in touch with L'Eandes, Oswald, and a man named Earl Perry. In 1961 "Rizzuto" saw L'Eandes at the Hotel Tamiana, in Florida, and said that Oswald had gone back to Texas. In the fall (1961) a man who identified himself as "L'Eandes" appeared on the Barry Gray radio program in NYC. In December he ("Rizzuto") and L'Eandes attended a political rally for Mark Lane. In January, 1962 he (Rizzuto), L'Eandes, and Earl Perry attended a rally of the American Jewish Congress. Posing as right-wing activists these people created a disturbance while Oswald took photos, one of which was allegedly published in "Thunderbolt" magazine. Their disruptive behavior at liberal rallies was reported by the Village Voice, who reported that L'Eandes was connected to Pro-Facist and anti-Semitic groups. But these same reporters could not understand why L'Eandes/Landesberg, who they believed was Jewish, would want to create havoc among Jews in NYC while posing as a southern bigot from Mississippi. L'Eandes was quoted as describing himself as "a former US Marine who is trying to be heard on vital American issues." On March 7, 1962 L'Eandes attended a Democratic Party rally in the Village where he heckled Hubert Humphrey. A few weeks later L'Eandes attended a meeting of the NAACP in Greenwich Village, where he made anti-segregation remarks and a fight ensued. During the interview with Gray, "Rizzuto" described L'Eandes as a close personal friend of Oswald and said they were both professional agitators who attended meetings of the American Jewish Congress and other organizations and tried to disrupt meetings. Rizzuto said that he last saw L'Eandes on Tuesday, November 19, 1963 at a bar on west 10th St., and was told that Oswald and Perry were together in Texas.

From information provided during the radio interview the FBI launched a manhunt in NYC for Steve L'Eandes and also searched for Earl Perry. From a photograph taken at one of the rallies, the FBI soon learned that "L'Eandes" was actually Steven Harris Landesberg, who lived at 66 W. 10th in NYC. On Dec. 5 Landesberg was interviewed at the NYC office of the FBI, and spoke with a severe stutter and became incoherent. He admitted that he was the "Rizzuto" interviewed by Barry Gray, and also used the name "Steven Yves L'Eandes." He told the Bureau agents that the activities he had attributed to L' Eandes were actually his own activities. Landesberg's use of the name "L'Eandes" was a cleverly disguised version of the name "Landes," which he had adopted (dropping the "berg" from Landesberg) in 1957. However, Steven Harris Landesberg told the FBI that the information pertaining to Lee Oswald and Earl Perry was furnished to him by someone else. He also told the FBI that he was a "paid agitator" (NY Times, 12/6/63), but declined to say who was paying him.

It is worth remembering that somehow, within hours of the assassination, Steven Harris Landesberg (aka L'Eandes) said that he was given detailed knowledge about Oswald's life and background. And, within hours of Oswald's arrest, Landesberg (aka L'Eandes) was disseminating this information thru a NYC radio station--but this was long before information related to Oswald's background began to appear in newspapers and the media. The unanswered question is, Who provided information about Oswald's background to Landesberg (aka L'Eandes) and why?

In the weeks following the assassination reporters at the Village Voice could not understand why the information provided by L'Eandes/Steven Harris Landesberg showed Oswald to be a rightist, denouncing liberal causes, and a member of the "States Rights Party" when the government and media were proclaiming Oswald to be a Communist. This author cannot understand how anyone could have known much of anything about Oswald's background within hours of the assassination, unless they had previous contact with Oswald or were provided information about his background. Regarding Earl Sheldon Perry, the Bureau was advised that in order for his records to be released they would have to receive permission from TAG, the Pentagon. On Nov 26 those records were released to the FBI, and showed that Perry actively served in the Marines from April 24, 1954 to January 23, 1956 and then served in the US Army reserve until Jan 23, 1962. His military occupation while in the Marine Corps was listed as "chaplain's assistant."

Steven Harris Landesberg (aka L'Eandes) was charged with providing false information to the FBI and was committed by Federal Judge John Cannella to 10 days at Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric observation. Being locked up for providing false information to the FBI is understandable. But what is not understandable is the FBI's apparent reluctance to question Steven Harris Landesberg about any involvement he or his associates may have had with Oswald, especially in late 1961 or 1962, and who paid him to support right-wing causes.

In an attempt to learn more about Steven Harris Landesberg's possible involvement with Oswald the author travelled to the US District Court House for the Southern District of NY at 40 Foley Square in NYC. After locating an index card titled "USA vs. Stephen Harris Landesberg" I requested the court file from Rosemarie Fugnetti, supervisor of the Records Control Division. Ms. Fugnetti soon discovered that the microfilm file record had disappeared, and said that she would request the original "paper" file from their archives/warehouse. After learning that the paper file had also disappeared, she told the author that this was the first and only time she knew of a microfilm case record, and the original "paper copy," disappearing from US District Court files. If Landesberg was questioned by the FBI about his knowledge or involvement with Oswald in 1961-62, or about those who paid him to be an "agitator" at liberal rallies, those records disappeared. All federal records relating to his arrest and incarceration have disappeared. It is worth remembering that FBI official William Sullivan said, "If Hoover decided there were documents that he didn’t want to come to the light of the public, then those documents would be destroyed and the truth would never be known." The disappearance of all the court records covering the Landesberg/Oswald affair may be the most significant smoking gun in the Landesberg story.

Steven Harris Landesberg's 10 day commitment to Bellevue makes it appear as though he was mentally unstable, just as the FBI tried to do with numerous troublesome JFK witnesses. When confronted with witness testimony that conflicted with the government's "official story," the bureau would often claim the witness was "incoherent, mentally unstable, delirious, confused, etc." This became the FBI's cover for leads the Bureau did not want to pursue. But Steven Harris Landesberg (aka Landes) was an honor role student, attended Rutgers, received an MBA from Columbia, and became a successful businessman in Florida--very different from the troublesome witness the FBI had committed to Bellevue in an apparent attempt to suppress his statements about Oswald or identify the people who paid him to make those statements or identify the people who paid him to cause disturbances at liberal political rallies.

The FBI successfully avoided Steven Harris Landesberg and any connection he may have had with (LEE) Oswald in 1961-62. Throughout their investigation of JFK's assassination the Bureau repeatedly avoided numerous "inconvenient" eyewitnesses to the double lives of LEE and HARVEY, including Sylvia Odio, Marita Lorenz, and Ralph Leon Yates. Odio met one Oswald, who visited her home in Dallas at a time when the other Oswald was allegedly boarding a bus to Mexico City. Lorenz knew LEE Oswald in Florida at a time when HARVEY Oswald was residing in the Soviet Union. Yates gave LEE Oswald (who was carrying a package that he said contained curtain rods) a ride to the TSBD at 10:00 AM, two days before the assassination, while HARVEY had been working in the same building since 8:00 AM. Desperate attempts were made to discredit these witnesses and expunge the documentary record. These people were treated with utter contempt by the Warren Commission and the HSCA, and their stories were nearly lost to history. Our national security network, including the FBI, CIA, and the Warren Commission, selectively drew upon eyewitnesses and documents that suited their purposes in order to craft the biography of one "Lee Harvey Oswald."

There is a distinct possibility that Steven Harris Landesberg (aka L'Eandes/Rizzuto/Landes) was a paid informant in 1961-62. This possibility is enhanced when we consider:

* Both Oswald and Landesberg were interviewed by radio stations concerning their political views-Oswald in New Orleans, and Landesberg in NYC.

* Both Oswald and Landesberg were involved with radical organizations-Oswald with the "FPCC" and Landesberg with the "Magnolia Rifles"

* Both Oswald and Landesberg had created "staged" confrontations in both New Orleans and NYC, designed to attract media attention

* Both Oswald and Landesberg used aliases.

* Both Oswald and Landesberg appear to have been used to take blame for the actions of others.

* Both Oswald and Landesberg had a second person who was using their name, in the same city, and at the same times.

* Both Oswald and Landesberg were discharged early from the Marines.

* Both Oswald and Landesberg's actions were so similar that one must consider the possibility that both were government agents.

Stephen Richard Landesberg

In the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s there was another "Steve Landesberg" living in NYC. This was Stephen Richard Landesberg, the actor ("Barney Miller" TV show). He was born Nov. 23, 1936, grew up in the Bronx, and graduated from high school in 1954. According to Social Security attorney Carol Hewitt he received his Social Security number between 1952 and 1955. But from 1954 thru 1969 Landesberg provided virtually no information about his life to the press, including his correct birth year and middle name. It was not until 1989 that Landesberg finally provided his correct year of birth. And his middle name (Richard) appears only on property records.

Landesberg's acting career began in 1969 at age 33, with the NY Stickball Comedy Team, and continued throughout his adult life (Barney Miller TV show). But throughout most of his forty-year acting career he provided virtually no information to the press about his life prior to 1969. In 1997 he told the Detroit Free Press, "Before getting into show business I worked in a lot of hotels, as an assistant credit manager." In 2003 Landesberg told the Alameda (Calif.) Times-Star newspaper that he had served in the military. He said, "When I was in the service I was quiet, but in the barracks I'd get crazy." The branch of service, his length of service, his rank, his locations during military service and the dates of his service were not mentioned. The most likely dates of service would have been after graduation from high school (1954) and prior to the early 1960s. Was he in the Marines in Camp LeJuene and Barstow, CA during the summer of 1956? Was this the "L'Eandes" described by Stephen Harris Landesberg to radio announcer Barry Gray on Nov 23, 1963?

After Landesberg's (the actor) death in 2010 a former acquaintance "Marty Z," posted the following on the Hollywoodland web site (12/21/2010): "Steve and I served in the same NY National Guard Reserve Unit in the early 60’s. At the Kingsbridge Armory in the Bronx, NY. It was the 742 Ord Battn."

At first glance it seems as though the actor, Stephen Richard Landesberg, had no connection with Stephen Harris Landesberg/L'Eandes, the paid agitator who was paid to report that "L'Eandes and Oswald were together in 1961-62. But the future actor provided very, very little biographical information from age 17 thru 33. He continually refused to provide his correct date of birth and continually refusal to acknowledge or use his middle name. But during a television interview, witnessed by Dallas reporter Earl Golz, Landesberg made a comment that could explain his reluctance to provide information about his past. During the television interview Landesberg said, "he was sorry he ever got mixed up with Oswald."

It remains unknown if the actor, Stephen Richard Landesberg (using the name "L'Eandes"), was the individual interviewed by radio announcer Barry Gray in 1961. And it remains unknown if Stephen Harris Landesberg, when interviewed by Barry Gray on 11/23/63, knew the identity of the man who he said associated with Oswald in 1961-62. We may never know the extent of Landesbeg's (the actor) involvement with Oswald, if any. But if Landesberg (the actor) and Oswald were "mixed up" together, then this could explain the actor's reluctance to provide information about his life from 1954-1969. Following the assassination, any prior association with Oswald could have quickly ended an acting career, or worse.

In 1993 I wrote to the actor (address obtained thru voter registration in Calif), identified myself and my interests, and asked him for a response. I (and fellow researcher Jack White) soon received phone calls from a man who identified himself as Tom Walker, and said that he was head of security for Mr. Landesberg. Mr. Walker, or whoever made the call (could have been the actor Landesberg), told me and fellow researcher Jack White to stop researching Landesberg "or else." "OR Else?" Something about Steve Landesberg's past was important enough to threaten JFK researchers to stop investigating the actor's background.

Whatever connection there may have been between Stephen Harris Landesberg the agitator, Stephen Richard Landesberg the actor, and LEE Oswald in 1961-62 (while HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union) remains unknown. But the similarities in character and appearance between Landesberg the agitator and Landesberg the actor are worth remembering:

* Both Steve L'Eandes/Landesberg and Steve Landesberg (the actor) were close to the same age

* Both Steve L'Eandes/Landesberg and Steve Landesberg (the actor) had very similar physical characteristics (height, weight, hair color, etc.)

* Both Steve L'Eandes/Landesberg and Steve Landesberg (the actor) had the ability to speak with a convincing southern dialect.

* Both Steve L'Eandes/Landesberg and Steve Landesberg (the actor) were born, grew up, and lived in the NYC area.

* Both Steve L'Eandes/Landesberg and Steve Landesberg (the actor) made comments relating to involvement and/or knowledge of Oswald.

* But there are very distinct differences between these men. L'Eandes/Landesberg (the agitator) had a life-long speech impediment, while Steve Landesberg the actor did not. L'Eandes/Landesberg's (the agitator) biographical history is well known and documented, while Steve Landesberg's (the actor) biographical history from age 17 thru age 33 is entirely and completely missing. L'Eandes/Landesberg (the agitator) always gave his correct birth date, while Steve Landesberg the actor gave multiple birth dates throughout his life.

Clearly the story of the two "Steve Landesbergs" and their relationship with Oswald, whether real or imagined, raises more questions than it answers. But the intriguing questions it raises are not easily forgotten, and perhaps some day these questions may be answered by further research. We may never fully understand the identities and activities of Stephen Harris Landesberg/Stephen Richard Landesberg/Landes/L'Eandes/Rizzuto. But if either or both of these men were involved with Oswald in NYC in late 1961 and/or early 1962 (while the other Oswald was in Russia), it would once again demonstrate the existence of the two Oswalds.