O'Reilly's Book (on JFK) has been green-lighted to be a movie

[Ray Mitcham]

Egad, Sir, We never involved ourselves in "affrays'. (too busy trying to get a cop off.)

[Ian Kingsbury]

Sorry I never gave a cite for the U.S. violent crime figures but

I used Richard Pryor "live" the big ole Magnum sketch is particularly

Informative!.

[Martin White]

Lee,

I agree with you in as much as you are more likely to survive an encounter with violent crime in this country, even IF Craig is correct that violent crime is statistically more common here (and on that point I make no comment).

As a Special Constable (volunteer police officer) here for 8 years, in a busy town, I saw a handful of stabbing/knife related incidents (with no fatalities), a lot of alcohol-fuelled fights, but NO gun-related crime.

Martin

Martin,

I think that is true of most town's in the U.K. at the moment. The cities, especially up north, are a bit more violent if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and we all know life now is very different from life when we were growing up. There are many social problems that cause the crime in the U.K. the same way there are many social problems that cause the crime in the States. The answer in combatting it is not a simple one.

I made a flippant point yesterday concerning watching the local news over here compared to watching the local news in the United States. Believe me, the experience is markedly different and leaves an impression on you that is hard to let go of. I usually go to the U.S. for a month at a time and to be bombarded with murder after murder after murder, then shooting after shooting after shooting, followed by carjackings and armed robberies and it all becomes a little bit exhausting. The local Chicago news is unbelievable each night. According to the statistics that Lamson is keen on, Afghanistan is a safer place to live than Chicago at the moment.

I'm originally from Croxteth in Liverpool. As you know a young twelve year old boy called Rhys Jones was shot and killed whilst playing football with his friends. Croxteth now has a reputation for it's problems with drugs and the more recent trend of local gang members (very small numbers) gaining possession of illegal firearms. This is what led to Ryhs' death. The whole community rallied together when that awful event happened and the youths who did it were quickly rounded up and went to prison. That single event sent shock waves throughout Liverpool and the whole of the U.K. and the disgust that people felt that we as a society were begining to see children shooting children was voiced by virtually everybody in the entire country. Even the major drug dealers anonymously came out against what happened, that's how big it was.

Everybody who has visited my city over the years has felt incredibly safe walking around and it always leaves a lasting impression of how warm and friendly the people here are. Craig Lamson wants to paint it a some sort of insufferable hell-hole when the closest he's ever been to it is the last time he opened an atlas.

Thanks for supporting what I have had to say and I apologise for jumping down your throat last week.

Regards

Lee

That's ok Lee. It's easy to do online, especially in the heat of an argument.

I had the same impression of local news when I lived near Detroit. Either violent crime of that kind was totally rampant, or the local news network were attempting to create a culture of fear/sensationalism - or both.

I think the best case to prove your point of the last couple of years was the two Brits who took a wrong turn out walking in Florida and ended up getting shot dead, although that may well be an isolated case.

cheers

Martin

Edited January 15, 2013 by Martin White

[Craig Lamson]

Lamson has a propensity for using invalid data to try proving his points. This is just a further example. Now, let’s all pack up and move to the utopian society that is Islamabad.

So Lee, when we remove the crime, you say is not really crime, and use the numbers from your own HOME OFFICE, exactly what to you have left? A still FAR GREATER number of violent crimes for UK compare to the US. Heck cut your violent crime rate in half and you still lose.

Whats invalid now besides you?

Welcome to reality. Oh wait you don't do reality.

BTW, one travels to were one is interested. The UK does not interest me. Heathrow is good enough.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Craig Lamson]

Lamson has a propensity for using invalid data to try proving his points. This is just a further example. Now, let’s all pack up and move to the utopian society that is Islamabad.

So Lee, when we remove the crime, yo say is not really crime, and use the numbers FROM your OWN HOME OFFICE, exactly what to you have left? A still FAR GREATER number of violent crimes for UK compare to the US.

Whats invalid now besides you?

Tell everybody what they are. You need to be more specific.

Excuse me?

[Craig Lamson]

BTW, one travels to were one is interested. The UK does not interest me. Heathrow is good enough.

I don't care what interests you. From the way you articulate yourself on this forum it would probably consists of pain, torture and humiliation. You seem to enjoy that sort of stuff.

A black operation rendition site would probably be your idea of a good vacation.

LOL! Thats the best you have?

[Martin White]

Jim,

You mentioned earlier that the WR mentioned that the Tippit shells showed no signs of being resized, which would appear to me to be the definitive sign of them not being reloads, yet you said (or implied) that the size/cost of the reloading equipment was more significant. Why was this? What did Meagher say that could have been more significant than the evidence on the shells themselves?

(Notwithstanding any questions of chain of possession of those shells)

thanks

Martin

Edited January 15, 2013 by Martin White

[Craig Lamson]

BTW, one travels to were one is interested. The UK does not interest me. Heathrow is good enough.

I don't care what interests you. From the way you articulate yourself on this forum it would probably consists of pain, torture and humiliation. You seem to enjoy that sort of stuff.

A black operation rendition site would probably be your idea of a good vacation.

LOL! Thats the best you have?

Come on, Craig. You must know you have a problem? The first step is admitting to it.

A grown man coming onto a forum and telling other members you love creating "fear" in them is psychologically unhinged. Telling other members that you enjoy watching them eat excrement is a sign of a sick mind.

Get some help.

But Lee that's exactly what you do here on a daily basis. You should read some of your posts to people like DVP. A mirror would be a very good tool for you.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Craig Lamson]

Lamson has a propensity for using invalid data to try proving his points. This is just a further example. Now, let’s all pack up and move to the utopian society that is Islamabad.

So Lee, when we remove the crime, yo say is not really crime, and use the numbers FROM your OWN HOME OFFICE, exactly what to you have left? A still FAR GREATER number of violent crimes for UK compare to the US.

Whats invalid now besides you?

Tell everybody what they are. You need to be more specific.

Excuse me?

Give us all a breakdown of the numbers minus the "crimes" you say that I say are not a "crime."BTW: I haven't said that an "affray" is not a crime. I'm merely pointing out to you that it involves no serious violent crime, only the threat of violence. I think it's you that need to learn to read.

Lets start with total crime ( all crimes not just violent crime) from Nationmaster.

US 11,877,218 from a population of 300 million

UK 6,523,706 from a population of 60 million

Strike one UK...

I'm out the door, more later.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Ian Kingsbury]

Ignorance is a dangerous thing in the hands of some people.

More so when they do not realise they have it!

[Ian Kingsbury]

And we are all here discussing a gun crime after all!.

[Craig Lamson]

Lets start with total crime ( all crimes not just violent crime) from Nationmaster.

US 11,877,218 from a population of 300 million

UK 6,523,706 from a population of 60 million

Strike one UK...

I'm out the door, more later.

That isn't what you were talking about. You were talking about Violent Crimes. That 6.5 million will include people fiddling their electricity meters and pensioners shoplifting packs of bacon from Asda.

Quite convenient trip out. Hope you take you Magnum. Can't be too careful.

You are the paranoid. I took my Mom to the doctor. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Now you do also now the overall crime figures include a host of lesser crimes for the US numbers as well That however won't fit well for the false narrative you are trying to portray. I'll be happy to continue you show you the folly of your position. But you said you were done. Which is it, or are you simply blowing more smoke?

But hey I can spot the UK a 50% reduction of the overall crime rate if it makes you feel better....but you still won't do any better in the end....

[Craig Lamson]

I don't know if Lee did this on purpose, but it sure has been effective in:

1.) Hijacking the thread, and

2.) Smoking out just what a RW extremist Craig really is.

The corollary to that of course is how anyone who sees the world through that kind of lens cannot help but filter certain things.

So Lee, thanks for all this. I know it was not a lot of fun.

So how did Lee "smoke out" my views jimbo? Is this yet anther example of your fine investigative and research skills? Oh wait, I've been a member here for many years and I've written extensively on my political views. So Lee "smoked out" what again?

BTW, exactly what extreme RW views have I espoused? Lets see...believing in the words of the US constitution? ERW? Nope. Standing by the first amendment of the constitution? ERW? Nope. Standing by the second amendment of the US constitution? ERW.

It appears you think these are extreme positions to take. So be it. As you said...."The corollary to that of course is how anyone who sees the world through that kind of lens cannot help but filter certain things."

[Craig Lamson]

Okay, for starters I've never even contemplated another human being eating excrement let alone voiced some sort of pleasure from the thought of it. That would be you.

I don't for one second enjoy the thought that other people may be afraid of me or that I generate fear in them. If anybody on here is willing to tell me that they are fearful of what I have to say then I will apologise for it. Like I apologised to Martin less than an hour ago for my behaviour last week. For you, it is the opposite, you continually voice how pleasurable it makes you feel that other people are afraid and the fear you think they have. You continually voice how pleasurable it makes you feel that you are symbolically "destroying" other members. And you continually use terminology that creates the impression that the destruction of people and things arouses you in some perverse way.

Now, again here is a difference between you and I. I enjoy banter. I enjoy getting the odd dig in every now and again. Some people will find them funny and some people won't. David Von Pein gives as good as he gets. I did once tell him to go get a handful of chicken fat and shove his copy of Reclaiming History up his hoop. Obviously I didn't mean literally and it was done in good jest to his very thoughtful and respectful responses to me, both here on the EF and on his own blog that I have no right to reply on. Likewise, I can take a good dig on the chin and some people's insults toward me have been hilariously funny.

I know when I am getting out of hand and I know when I am getting too emotionally involved in matters here on this forum. That is usually when I take a sabbatical. If my efforts at humour have seriously hurt anybody's feelings and I am made aware of it then I will apologise. No question.

LOL! I see you still are living in your fantasy world. Again no surprise.

[Craig Lamson]

I apologise to members who have found this all a bit banal but I appreciate your points, Jim.

This is not a "debate" about which society is safer. At the end of the day both countries have their problems and they are major problems that need fixing. This "debate" instead goes to the heart of whether or not individuals can digest different pieces of information and use it in a responsible manner to come to sensible and unbiased conclusions. Contemplating a more thoughtful series of answers.

Craig Lamson has demonstrated that he cannot do this. He does not understand the data he is reading because he does not understand the inner-workings and cultural problems of the United Kingdom and he is using the raw data in an attempt to support the idea that an armed society is a safer society.

And you have shown conclusively that you can't if the answers don;t fit your preconceived narrative.

Again we see that Lee has a real problem reading. I'm quite willing and able to see that some of the UK is nothing but a bunch of raging drunks. No problem at all. I'm quite willing to remove the stats for these raging drunks smack talking each other from the violent crime stats. LEE is the one not willing to deal directly with this because it kills his narrative.

And NOWHERE I have attempted claim an more armed society is safer society. No such stats exist either for or against. My argument is that guns neither increase or decrease violence. PEOPLE are the cause of violence. Guns only effect the OUTCOME of some violent acts. There is no doubt there will be more gun deaths in a society with guns than in a society without guns. And I'm on record that the number of gun deaths in the US are way too high. But Like the drunken Brits, we have a subset of our society here responsible for many of the gun crimes...drug dealers, users and gangs.

Now if we want to use the tortured logic of Lee, we can eliminate this group of gang members and drugies, and watch the US violent crime numbers fall even more.

But I don't. I'll take the numbers from the US, warts and all.

So be it. Nothing is going to change his mind. All of the Brits on this board know which social issues create the vast majority of crime in this country. Binge-drinking is one of them. Lamson cannot understand this, or at least he is unwilling to even want to understand that this has a massive impact each year on the U.K. violent crime figures. According to the same figures, as I've already mentioned, living in Pakistan is like living in an episode of The Waltons.

I have tried to rationally explain to this guy that the figures are skewed. I have not claimed once that they account for all of the violent crime in the U.K. I have simply told him that they amount to a good chunk whether they be violent acts of public disorder or threatened acts of public disorder. In response we all have to contend with the likes of the following:

"Its all the fault of binge drinkers...yea that the ticket. That's the very best you can do?"

When the guy simply has no understanding of what the U.K. is like. He's never been here. He's never experienced it. My information is simply dismissed and he twists what I said to meet his own needs because I never said it was "all the fault of binge drinkers." How can someone be so bloody-minded in their opinions? Is it impossible to say, "You know what? I didn't know that. I'll look into it a bit more."

Again we see just how badly Lee must twist the facts to try and keep his lousy narrative alive. I looked at the facts and say that the UK listed no actual violence crimes at 37% of the total violent crime numbers. I reduced the total number of violent crimes in the UK by 37%. Heck I was even happy to reduced the number by 50% which was Lee's claim ("a majority"). No longer "raw numbers, lacking cultural sensitivity", the violent crime stats for the UK were STILL higher than the full numbers from the US. BTW, the numbers come from here: Home Office 2010/2011 and FBI Uniform Crime report. UK total Violent crime for a population of 62 Million - 2,203,000. US total Violent crime for a population of 312 million - 1,203,564

I'm finished on this now. Lamson has entered the fray on a topic not relating to photography and he has shown us exactly how his manipulative mind works yet again. It is a mind that belongs in the stone-age and he represents everything that is awful about certain cross-sections of the baby-boomer generation who have wanted to have and own everything they possibly can without showing any sort of consideration for the people born further down the line who will be picking up the pieces and paying through the nose for the privilege.

Of course you are finished, insulting and bullying because you lost the argument and have been shown to be shall we say..."less than honest". Pretty typical and quite illuminating.

The baby boomer generation will be considered by future generations to be the most selfish of people (politically and economically) and Craig Lamson, in my opinion, represents what this selfishness and pig-headedness looks and sounds like.

P.S. Best not mention the 2.2 million prisoner currently incarcerated in U.S. prisons, should I? The highest in the developed world working out as 748 per 100,000 of the population.

Perhaps the numbers of bad people behind bars in the US could be an indicator as to why we have a much lower violent crime rate than the UK?

BTW, I see you are writing while looking at yourself in the mirror again.