Who did Lyndon Johnson visit?

[William Kelly]

Caro confirms 9:24pm departure but says nothing about his arrival time at The Elms. Caro has these tidbits about that night:

• After leaving the copter, Johnson (along with Moyers and "several other men") headed immediately to the White House and then to the Oval Office. At the last minute "he veered to the right, so abruptly that his right shoulder banged into Moyers. 'Don't you want to go in?' someone asked. 'I'll use my office,' he said." This is a minor incident, but interesting that LBJ's instinct is to go to the Oval Office and that the habit of going to his own office is secondary.
  
• Army Lieutenant Richard H. Nelson, as soon as he heard about JFK and LBJ's swearing in, "dragooned" a White House guard and decorated 274 at the EOB with a presidential flag and seals that he found in the basement. He thought it was important to the maintain the look and feel of true continuity of government. Fortunate, I guess, that LBJ didn't use the Oval Office after all.
  
• At 274, LBJ had with him Valenti, Moyers, Carter, Jenkins, Reedy, and "their secretaries." Bundy may have been there too, as well as Colonel Juanita Roberts and a throng of visitors including Fulbright and Harriman.
  
• That night, LBJ penned two letters--one each to JFK's two children (signed "Affectionately, Lyndon B. Johnson"--what a sweetheart!), called Busby ("Buzz") and asked him to meet him at home (The Elms).
  
• LBJ collected Moyers, Valenti, and Carter and headed out at 9:24pm (along with SS, including Youngblood). He asked Valenti to stay at his house that night so they would "have a chance to do some talking."
  
• The scene at the White House and The Elms were pandemonium; news crews, onlookers, police, etc. all wanted to either see or protect the President. Hardly the chance for anything suspicious here.
  
• The evening at The Elms was filled with angst and planning for the road ahead (mostly what you'd expect). A doctor checked LBJ to ensure that his heart was fine (it was), and Busby thought LBJ was in complete control. However, in a low voice, LBJ kept saying over and over, "We really have a big job to do now." Given how competent and "in control LBJ was (always was), this struck me as an odd remark. The presidency was something LBJ always wanted and could easily have managed. His biggest worry that day should have been the Congressional hearings going on. In addition, Oswald was already arrested. What "big job" was he talking about over and over?
  

I think its quite clear that LBJ didn't enter the White House after arriving by helicopter from Andrews and that when the secretaries made calls in the name of LBJ and these men, they said that they were calling from the White House, when in fact the were in the EOB. The phone records for the White House do not reflect the calls to Texas authorities, and someone should see if the phone records of the Vice President's office in the EOB were kept and what they reflect.

It is also interesting that according to Joe Califano, they had bugged both the Oval Office and the Attorney General's office - patched into the Pentagon war room, but they apparently didn't tap the VP office (274) in the EOB, and apparently didn't keep those phone records for posterity.

Juanita Roberts, "an Army professional (Colonel Roberts) we used to call her when some one of the LBJ aides was ready to wring her efficient neck....She had been with him in the Senate and vice-presidential days and she fought incessantly with the male aides to claim her place in the hierarchy. She saved everything. I mean everything, for Johnson archives. In the days when LBJ was vice-president Bill Moyers once sent a package which when she opened it revealed some old chicken bones with a note from Moyers, "The vice-president just ate and i though you might want those for the archives." Juanita was not amused. But with all her insistencies that many of us found damned disagreeable she manged the secretarial office of the president with monumental skill." - Valenti (p. 79)

From what I understand, LBJ ordered a number of telephone conversations destroyed, but Roberts kept them against orders, and I think she may have also done this with other records.

I think its clear that the incident described by JS must have occurred during the missing hour 9:30PM - 10:30PM between EOB and Elms.

If Posner, Bugliosi and Caro aren't going to tell us what happened during that hour, the only thing I can think of is the Secret Service reports.

Youngblood was one of the agents assigned to LBJ, I think - and the official report of the SS Agent who drove the car will have to reflect if they made any stops along the way and where.

Who was the driver and what do the SS reports say?

Also would like to know more about "Colonel" Roberts - was she Army Reserves or regular Army?

BK

Edited February 24, 2013 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

John,

How do you know this? That he visited someone and that the someone wouldn't talk to him?

Also, it did not occur between Andrews and White House because LBJ flew there by helicopter and did not enter a car until after leaving the EOB, so it must have occurred after he left the EOB and not before he got there.

There is a very big gap in the post-assassination LBJ chronology, but it occurs AFTER LBJ leaves the EOB, and not before they got there, as I have detailed in this article:

JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point

I think it is pretty well established from all accounts that LBJ took a helicopter from Andrews to the White House lawn, with Jack Valenti and a few other aides, walked directly to the Executive Office Building (EOB) next to the White House where in his office he received a few visitors. Then, for about an hour, LBJ was secreted behind a closed door with Carter and Jenkins making telephone calls to Texas authorities. The calls were made to get them to file murder charges against Oswald alone, and not as part of a communist conspiracy, as rumor had it - a rumor started by Joseph Goulden and ADA Alexander.

This was when they decided to go with the Lone Nut scenario rather than Cuban Commie, as originally planned.

According to most sources, after they emerged from behind the closed door, they left the EOB at 9:27 PM for LBJ's residence, the Elms, a five minute ride, but don't arrive there until 10:59 PM - both official times, leaving a gap of over an hour.

An unofficial chronological timeline however, indicates:

9:27 PM – LBJ leaves EOB for Elms 4040 52nd St. (per Valenti)

10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived.

10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival.

Where was LBJ from 9:27 PM until 19:58 PM? Who did he visit? Did he pick up anyone?

What does Caro have to say about this time period?

Bill, you asked me about this before since I read Caro's book and took copious notes.

I told you that Caro says that he picked up Valenti, Moyers and and a couple of others. He then brought them back to his house.

Thanks Jim, I forgot.

But he didn't pick up Valenti since Valenti was with him from Dallas and flew in on the second helicopter from Andrews.

I don't think we'll get any key information out of Caro, but I'd like to get an exact quote of what he says happened it that short span of time, as he does go into such minute details for much of the day, he seems to have just skipped over a few key hours here.

Does Caro say they go into the White House? I don't think so.

What does he say happened at the EOB office where we know key phone calls were made to Texas officials?

Who does he call?

And when he leaves, who in the SS is with him - who drives - and what do they report they did for the hour in question - 9:30-10:30PM?

I think I answered some of these questions in my Tipping Point article, but I haven't seen the SS reports.

I think we narrowed down the answer to John Simkin's question can be found in what occurred during that hour.

Hell, they could have went to a bar and got drunk in an hour.

BK

Edited February 24, 2013 by William Kelly

[David Andrews]

Well, we had better figure this one out, because (speaking of maddening things) the last time Mr. Simkin put up one of these blind items, he never gave the answer when nobody could suss it out.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

When LBJ arrived back in Washington after being sworn in as president on Air Force One, he asked his driver to stop off at a friend's home, before going to the White House. It has been claimed that this was a significant visit and reflected something about his state of mind. Does anyone know who he visited? Do you know why the man did not speak to him?

The answer is I don't know.

I think Simkin is asking about LBJ wanting to go visit a friend BEFORE he heads over to the White House and his office #274 in the Executive Office Building.

The other question is: what in the world is LBJ doing from 9:24PM - 9:27PM when he leaves the White House until he arrives at The Elms a tad before 11PM Eastern?

I don't know the question to that either.

[William Kelly]

When LBJ arrived back in Washington after being sworn in as president on Air Force One, he asked his driver to stop off at a friend's home, before going to the White House. It has been claimed that this was a significant visit and reflected something about his state of mind. Does anyone know who he visited? Do you know why the man did not speak to him?

The answer is I don't know.

I think Simkin is asking about LBJ wanting to go visit a friend BEFORE he heads over to the White House and his office #274 in the Executive Office Building.

The other question is: what in the world is LBJ doing from 9:24PM - 9:27PM when he leaves the White House until he arrives at The Elms a tad before 11PM Eastern?

I don't know the question to that either.

We know for a fact that LBJ took one of two helicopters from Andrews to the White House lawn. There's a photo at JFK Library of him getting off the US Marine One. Valenti said he was instructed to get on the second helicopter and arrived a few minutes later. They met together on the White House lawn but didn't go in the White House, walking instead across the street to the EOB, where they stayed until 9:27. Now that's not a round number, its pretty exact and to me that says that when LBJ left the building and got into a car somebody looked at their watch and wrote down the time.

He arrives at Elms (aka Valley) at 10:59PM - and that too is not a round number or an estimate, but an exact number,

If LBJ visited anyone or picked up anyone, it was during that hour.

The official History Channel historian wrote a book The First 12 Hours, made into a documentary film, which is pretty good, and focuses on the first 12 hours of LBJ's presidency.

If you read SS Agent Rufus Youngblood's report and testimony, he mentions that after hearing the first shot he looked up at the roof of the TSBD and saw the clock that said: 12:30. His report however, ends with the swearing in and take off of AF1 and does not mention what he does after that.

From my perspective, if you focus in detail on the first 12 hours, and there's a full hour missing - that missing hour in which there are no official records of what transpired, it must there fore be significant.

From what I recall, and I think Bugliosi says the most about this, they left the EOB in two SS cars, with LBJ and Youngblood, Valenti and Cliff Carter in one and SS agents in the other. Either one car went directly to the Elms and arrived there forty minutes before the other one with LBJ, or they both drove around DC together for an hour.

Either way, there's an hour in which there is a black hole in the official archival record, and the only persons who would know what happened during that time are those in the cars and I think that the drivers of the cars, the SS agent drivers - whoever they were, are the ones who will have written down in their reports what occurred and where they went, like cab drivers do - are required to do. The person or persons they visited or encountered in their nocturnal drive around DC would also know.

And David, I don't think John Simpkin knows the answer either, but is just repeating hearsay he read or heard about, and I think if there's any truth to what he is saying, it happened after they left the EOB and not before they got there.

No sense making this more complicated than it is.

And I think it is a mystery that can be solved.

BK

[John Dolva]

John McCormack?

[John Simkin]

Well, we had better figure this one out, because (speaking of maddening things) the last time Mr. Simkin put up one of these blind items, he never gave the answer when nobody could suss it out.

Please let me know what that was and I will let you know the answer. I will give you the answer to this question later on today.

[David Andrews]

I'll try to find that previous item, though I may not be able to locate it today.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

John McCormack?

On Feb. 4, 1964, Lyndon Johnson sure had a conversation with House Speaker John McCormack!

[Noel Twyman, "Bloody Treason: the Assassination of John F. Kennedy," pp. 807-808.

Illustrating Johnson's fear of revelation of the Bobby Baker scandal, David Scheim wrote:

The hush on Baker may be explained by a conversation between Johnson and House Speaker John McCormack as reported in The Washington Payoff by ex-Washington lobbyist Robert Winter-Berger. On February 4, 1964, Winter-Berger was discussing public relations with McCormack in McCormack's Washington office. President Johnson then barged in and began ranting hysterically, Winter-Berger reported, oblivious to the lobbyist's presence. During his long tirade, [Lyndon] Johnson said:

"John, that son of a bitch [bobby Baker] is going to ruin me. If that ____sucker talks, I'm gonna land in jail....I practically raised that m________r, and now he's gonna make me the first President of the United States to spend the last days of his life behind bars."

When Johnson finally noticed Winter-Berger's presence, McCormack explained that the visiting lobbyist was a close friend of Nat Voloshen, who was a Mob fixer of enormous influence. Johnson then became enthusiastic, exclaiming, "Nat can get to Bobby. They're friends. Have Nat get to Bobby." When Winter-Berger volunteered that he had an appointment with Voloshen the next day, Johnson told Winter-Berger:

"Tell Nat that I want him to get in touch with Bobby Baker as soon as possible- tomorrow if he can. Tell Nat to tell Bobby that I will give him a million dollars if he takes this rap. Bobby must not talk. I'll see to it that he gets a million-dollar settlement."

Given a subsequent scandal involving intercessions for Mobsters from McCormack's office at Voloshen's behest, the recounted tirade would hardly have been exceptional in that office ..."

[Noel Twyman, "Bloody Treason: the Assassination of John F. Kennedy," pp. 807-808. Also Robert N. Winter-Berger, "The Washington Payoff: An Insider's View of Corruption in Government," pp. 61-68]

Edited February 24, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Ian Kingsbury]

Was there any form of communication in the cars?.

A call you would not make down official lines!.

Could there have been a radio set in the car that LBJ thought was "secure"?.

Did LBJ have reason to suspect the S.S. as he appears to move them

Away from him at times .Lawson on the second plane also the SS agents

In a second car?.the backyard peeing incident?.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Ian Kingsbury

[John Simkin]

The answer is Charles Edward Marsh. He was a multimillionaire newspaper owner who was a strong supporter of the New Deal. Johnson owed the beginning of his political career to Marsh. In 1936 Johnson was a candidate for Austin's Tenth Congressional District. When he was told by Welly Kennon Hopkins that Johnson was a passionate "New Dealer" he ordered the editors of his two newspapers in Austin to back him. Hopkins claimed that Johnson's victory was in "no small part thanks to Marsh's editorial support" and suspected that he helped the young politician "as a way of extending his own influence".

Marsh met Johnson for the first time in May 1937. Marsh's secretary later recalled: "The first thing I noticed about Johnson was his availability. Whenever Marsh would ask Lyndon to come by for a drink, no matter that Lyndon was a busy man, he would always come. He was always available on short notice.... He was very deferential. Very, very deferential. I saw a young man who wanted to be on good terms with an older man, and was absolutely determined to be on good terms with him." Harold Young, one of Johnson's close friends, watched the young politician "play" many an older man. However, he felt that "he had never played one better than he did Charles Marsh".

Marsh was a strong anti-Nazi and he joined forces with Johnson in eventually helping hundreds of Jewish refugees to reach safety in Texas through Cuba, Mexico, and other South American countries.

Texas newspapers were overwhelmingly against President Franklin D. Roosevelt, but Marsh's six Texas newspapers, including the influential Austin American-Statesman in the state capital, supported the New Deal. As a result, Roosevelt agreed to Marsh's request to see him. Edwin M. Watson, his appointment secretary, wrote on 14th July, 1939: "Put Mr. Charles Marsh down for an appointment with the President on Wednesday. Mr. Marsh is the owner of a large string of papers supporting the President in Texas." Marsh decided to take this opportunity to introduce Roosevelt to his new protégé, Lyndon Johnson.

In late 1939 Marsh discovered that Johnson was having an affair with his live-in mistress, Alice Glass. Marsh's eldest daughter by his first marriage, Antoinette Marsh Haskell, said he knew that she had been unfaithful in the past but her relationship with Johnson infuriated him. After loudly berating Johnson, Marsh threw him out. The next morning Johnson returned and apologized. He also promised to end the relationship with Alice and Marsh forgave him. Antoinette commented: "They didn't let her come between them. Men in power like that don't give a damn about women. They were not that important in the end. The were not that important in the end. They treated women like toys. That's just the way it was." Marsh eventually married and divorced Glass. Johnson then resumed his affair with Alice.

In 1948 Marsh backed Johnson against Coke Stevenson. During this election Johnson claimed he was like Marsh on the left of the party. However, once he won the election, he associated himself with the right in the Democratic Party. In 1949 Johnson mounted a smear campaign against Leland Olds, chairman of the Federal Power Commission. Olds had managed to lower the prices of electricity. This upset Johnson's friends in the Texas oil industry. As Robert Bryce, the author of Cronies: Oil, The Bushes, and the Rise of Texas, America's Superstate (2004) pointed out: "Johnson saw that the best way to take care of Olds was to brand him a Communist. In the 1920s, Olds had worked for a wire service, and during that time he'd praised some aspects of the system of government in Russia." Olds was forced to resign. Ronnie Dugger pointed out that by joining in the political crucifixion of Leland Olds - driving in the nails himself - Johnson had used most of the tricks of what would come to be known as McCarthyism, and he nauseated some of his colleagues, but he had achieved his purpose - he had convinced the oilmen back in Texas that he was their man."

Marsh broke with Johnson over this issue. In 1953 Marsh was bitten by a mosquito and contracted a grave form of malaria. As Jennet Conant the author of The Irregulars: Roald Dahl and the British Spy Ring in Wartime Washington (2008), has pointed out: "By the time the doctor arrived, he was near death. Marsh refused to let go. Although he rallied, the high fevers, followed by a series of devastating strokes that damaged his brain. He was never again able to speak more than a few words. To see such a dynamic force struck down broke Dahl's heart."

Philip Kopper, the author of Anonymous Giver: A life of Charles E. Marsh (2000), claims that Johnson called on Marsh after arriving back in Washington. According to Marsh's nurse, Johnson attempted to speak to Marsh: "He got no reply, and as the silence lengthened, he blanched." He turned to Marsh's wife and with tears in his eyes, asked, "Where are Sam (Rayburn) and Charles now, when I need them." Charles Edward Marsh died on 30th December, 1964.

Johnson continued her sexual relationship with Johnson but according to Robert A. Caro, their relationship finally ended as a result of their bitter disagreement over the Vietnam War, which she passionately opposed.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NDcharles_marsh.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NDalice_glass.htm

[William Kelly]

Thanks John,

I don't have Kopper's book but I don't think that LBJ's attempt to see Marsh after the assassination happened on 11/22/63.

I thought Conant's book had a lot of good tidbits in it but I missed that one.

Jennet Conant – “The Irregulars – Ronald Dahl and the British Spy Ring in Wartime Washington" (Simon & Schuster, 2008) p. 342:

“…On Sunday morning, December 1, 1963, just six days after John F. Kennedy had been laid to rest at Arlington National Cemetery, Lyndon Johnson went to the gravesite to lay a wreath before heading to the Oval Office. On November 23 he had been sworn in as the country’s thirty-sixth president in a hasty proceeding aboard Air Force One, using Kennedy’s own Bible while the body lay in a casket in the back of the plane. On his way to the White House, which he had yet to occupy out of respect for the grieving family, Johnson instructed his driver to make a short, unscheduled stop at Marsh’s home. He bounded up the familiar stairs and, with a quick nod to this hostess at the door, went in search of his old friend. He found the Texas publisher stretched out beneath a sheet, being pummeled by a masseur. Unaware of how far Marsh had slipped, Johnson tried a self-deprecating joke about his ‘new eminence.’ As Antoinette later recounted, when ‘he got no reply, as to the silence lengthened, he blanched. Johnson stared at the long, limp body. Stunned, he descended to the front foot of the stairs where Claudia waited and, with tears in his eyes, asked, ‘Where are Mr. Sam [Rayburn] and Charles now, when I need them?’ Then he turned and left. The next day the Washington Star reported that the mysterious detour help up the new president’s motorcade only ‘three or four minutes.’”

The source: Antoinette Marsh Haskell, is Marsh's oldest daughter (Husband Robert Haskell).

Conant has a few of her basic facts wrong however - including the date - November 23 - and JFK's Catholic missal prayer book was used to swear him in, not a bible, and the book mysteriously disappeared after that event, probably taken by one of the Texans who got off the plane and didn't go to DC.

I think the event occurred on Dec. 1, not Nov. 22, as Conant begins the story on Sunday Dec 1 - when LBJ placed the wreath at the grave and that's when the visit occurred - as LBJ's car led a motorcade to the White House, and not, as Conant implies - between Andrews and the White House on the day of the assassination.

Marsh's home - at 2136 R. Street near Dupont Circle, was on the route he had to take from EOB to Elms and a four minute stop would not account for the hour missing from the LBJ chronology of 11/22/63.

The mystery deepens.

BK

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Excellent contributions by both John Simkin and William Kelly!

Anonymous Giver: A life of Charles E. Marsh (2000) by Philip Kopper - is a book that simply cannot be found. If you want to put it into a PDF file I will share it on my internet sharing account. Or you can mail it to me and I will get it scanned and put into a PDF file. Ditto for any other rare, out of print, far too expensive book that you want to share with others (unless the author objects).

Here is the Amazon link with a picture of Charles Marsh: http://www.amazon.com/Anonymous-giver-life-Charles-Marsh/dp/B0006RMCNU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361770264&sr=8-1&keywords=Anonymous+Giver%3A+A+life+of+Charles+E.+Marsh No available books.

As for LBJ seeing a stricken Charles Marsh on 11/22/63. That did not happen. No time for it; just did not happen.

I can easily seeing an impulsive LBJ stopping by on Sunday, Dec. 1, 1963 though. (Two days later at the JCS Christmas party, LBJ was saying "Get me elected and I will give you your Vietnam War."

Edited February 25, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Pat Speer]

The notes of Johnson's secretary--not an entirely reliable source--claim he met with his assistants at the time some seem to think he was missing.

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/kennedy/LBJ%27s%20Diary/112263-3.htm

[Robert Howard]

I do not have Volume 2 of Caro's book, which would cover the period in question, from a search, it looks like the most specific account outside of what I would imagine is at the LBJ Library, [possibly George Ball's book], are pages 322-23 of Merle Miller's Lyndon: An Oral Biography, although the person who was visited does not seem to be included. The accounts, in chronological order are of George Ball, Liz Carpenter, Bill Moyers and Hale Boggs.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Robert Howard