Scott Tame Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) If you're going to create evidence at Bethesda, you don't need a casket shell game to accomplish it. But you should probably create a head wound that supports a shot from above and behind. And if you're going create evidence at Bethesda, why throw a bullet on some random stretcher in Parkland when you can magically pull one out of the shallow back wound instead. Am I reading you correctly? ...you believe the evidence offered from the autopsy supports a single shot from above and behind? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21028#entry284612 - my post #6 above... I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that. And what were you saying earlier about a soapbox? Edited February 14, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) Sorry Scott... the way you spoke of CE399 - I thought it important that the record be clear on THAT bullet.... so I posted some of the evidence. I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that. Ok - then let's look at what the autopsy results do say... As I disagree with your statement above. "There is edema and ecchymosis diffusely over the right supra-orbital ridge with abnormal mobility of the underlying bone. " Laymans' terms: "There is swelling and "the escape of blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels" over the "bony ridge located above the eye sockets" .... the underlying bone moves freely... From the irregular margins of the above scalp defect tears extend instellate fashion into the more or less intact scalp as follows: a. From the right inferior temporo-parietal margin anterior to the rightear to a point slightly above the tragus. b. From the anterior parietal margin anteriorly on the forehead toapproximately 4 cm. above the right orbital ridge. c. From the left margin of the main defect across the midlineantero-laterally for a distance of approximately 8 cm. (an·ter·o·lat·er·al adj.In front and away from the middle line.) d. From the same starting point as c. 10 cm. postero-laterally. Situated in the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to theright and slightly above the external occipital protuberance is alacerated wound measuring 15 x 6 mm. In the underlying bone is acorresponding wound through the skull which exhibits beveling ofthe margins of the bone when viewed from the inner aspect of theskull. Summary: The fatal missile entered the skull above and to the right of the external occipital protuberance. ... A portion of the projectile made its exit through the parietal bone on the right carrying with it portions of cerebrum, skull and scalp Received as separate specimens from Dallas, Texas are threefragments of skull bone which in aggregate roughly approximate thedimensions of the large defect described above. The words "Frontal Bone" do not appear in the autopsy report in description of any wound or any exit... I've never said any of the medical evidence is consistent with each other, it's not, I've posted Nurse Bowron's comments with an autopsy photo pretending to show no disruption to the back of the head the size of the open wound described by most everyone in Dallas I've posted a very detailed image of what the autopsy and HUMES said and what that meant in physical terms... ALL back to front although running from the base of the skull to the middle and then again at the top (where HUMES took a saw to it) Below is a graphic that represents the autopsy's findings about the skull they saw... (pun intended) and completely supports ONLY a shot from above and behind... with no other options. Scott... which autopsy results and physical evidence offered are you talking about that does not support a single shot from above and behind UNTIL one takes the time to plot it on a skull... and even though the damage is far more extensive than a single bullet could cause... any and all easily understandable evidence that could be related to a frontal shot has been removed... Finally - it is Pat Speer who is trying to convince us that the autopsy evidence is reliable and indicative of what occurred in Dallas... it most obviously is not, while ALL the autopsy evidence tries to suggest that shots were only fired from above and behind.... Soapbox serenade concluded... Edited February 15, 2014 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Sorry Scott... the way you spoke of CE399 - I thought it important that the record be clear on THAT bullet.... so I posted some of the evidence. I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that. Scott... which autopsy results and physical evidence offered are you talking about that does not support a single shot from above and behind UNTIL one takes the time to plot it on a skull... and even though the damage is far more extensive than a single bullet could cause... any and all easily understandable evidence that could be related to a frontal shot has been removed... The autopsy report states that the Bullet entered low on the back of the head. The Clark Panel had to raise this wound to get the trajectory to work for a shot from above and behind. Pat pointed out that the exit (beveling on the skull not missing scalp) wasn't moved to the forehead until the HSCA came along. The only thing we have to base the exit point on from the autopsy is the Rydberg Drawing. That's one hell of an upward angle even with the bogus head angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) "There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions. In this region there is an actual absence of scalp and bone producing a defect which measures approximately 13cm. in greatest diameter. From the irregular margins of the above scalp defect tears extend in stellate fashion into the more or less intact scalp as follows: a. From the right inferior temporo-parietal margin anterior to the right ear to a point slightly above the tragus." Translation: There is an area of missing scalp with irregular edges from which tears radiate. The lower right margin of this defect is in the temporo-parietal region. Tear A begins at this lower right margin and goes forward to the right ear to a point just above the tragus. The only way this tear can go forward to the right ear is if the scalp defect is behind it. Edited February 15, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Sorry Scott... the way you spoke of CE399 - I thought it important that the record be clear on THAT bullet.... so I posted some of the evidence. I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that. Scott... which autopsy results and physical evidence offered are you talking about that does not support a single shot from above and behind UNTIL one takes the time to plot it on a skull... and even though the damage is far more extensive than a single bullet could cause... any and all easily understandable evidence that could be related to a frontal shot has been removed... The autopsy report states that the Bullet entered low on the back of the head. The Clark Panel had to raise this wound to get the trajectory to work for a shot from above and behind. Pat pointed out that the exit (beveling on the skull not missing scalp) wasn't moved to the forehead until the HSCA came along. The only thing we have to base the exit point on from the autopsy is the Rydberg Drawing. That's one hell of an upward angle even with the bogus head angle. "The only thing we have to base the exit point on from the autopsy is the Rydberg Drawing. That's one hell of an upward angle even with the bogus head angle." Hey Scott... sorry but I must disagree again, respectfully The lateral xray shows the entire right FRONT gone... The anterior... even more of the right side to the front is gone... which matches none of the Fox images... Small hole in back LARGE hole in front... is what the XRAYS show... A conflicting fragment trail for sure, but the evidence is constructed so there is simply no overt evidence of the blow-out to the occipit. Ryberg is certainly not the only evidence from the autopsy that suggests an exit point... although "point" is a misnomer... "exit area blown out" is more accurate The xrays were going with the SS and imo at that time, Bethesda personnel believed they would never see the light of day.... yes - I think the SS and Military and FBI were that arrogant about the evidence that they were going to make it say just what was needed... and did in most every area of the case... Yet you dont address the 6:40-8pm Bethesda time other than to dismiss the casket changes and work done by HUMES on the body... What do you think was happening while xrays are being developed yet JFK had just arrived out front Without understanding or at least offering a reasonable alternative... the EVIDENCE from those there is pretty illuminating from that time period... and basically proves that the injuries as recorded in Bethesda do not match what they were in Dallas.... a. From the right inferior temporo-parietal margin anterior to the right ear to a point slightly above the tragus." Translation: There is an area of missing scalp with irregular edges from which tears radiate. The lower right margin of this defect is in the temporo-parietal region. Tear A begins at this lower right margin and goes forward to the right ear to a point just above the tragus. The only way this tear can go forward to the right ear is if the scalp defect is behind it. "anterior to the right ear" is the end of that injury's description... isn't anterior TO THE FRONT.. ? So the tear in the skull/scalp from IN FRONT OF THE RIGHT EAR extends to a point ABOVE THE Little bump on the EAR. In the image I posted, the letter a) is just above the tragus with a line extending from the TP-margin,which is even further forward, BACK to the point above the tragus... In F7 this appears as the cracked bone flap in front of the ear.. in F3 it is completely covered up and the scalp is shown as intact... In answer to the thread's topic question... the autopsy DRs KNEW the bullet exited the back of the head... and it was changed between 6:40 and 8pm at Bethesda so no evidence could be offered to support a frontal shot... discussing the autopsy materials as indicative of Dallas is, imo, folly... Redlich to Rankin 4/27/64: How much more plain does it need to be? I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 The lateral xray shows the entire right FRONT gone... The anterior... even more of the right side to the front is gone... which matches none of the Fox images... Based on who's interpretation? That certainly wasn't the interpretation of the HSCA based on the photos and X-rays. Ryberg is certainly not the only evidence from the autopsy that suggests an exit point... although "point" is a misnomer... "exit area blown out" is more accurate I clearly stated above that I wasn't referring to the area of missing scalp (i.e. the area of blow out) but to the beveling on the skull which would indicate the exact point the bullet impacted. Yet you dont address the 6:40-8pm Bethesda time other than to dismiss the casket changes and work done by HUMES on the body... What do you think was happening while xrays are being developed yet JFK had just arrived out front What is your source for the 6:40 time? "anterior to the right ear" is the end of that injury's description... isn't anterior TO THE FRONT.. ? So the tear in the skull/scalp from IN FRONT OF THE RIGHT EAR extends to a point ABOVE THE Little bump on the EAR. In the image I posted, the letter a) is just above the tragus with a line extending from the TP-margin,which is even further forward, BACK to the point above the tragus... It's describing the start point and end point of the scalp tear. It starts at the right inferior (lower) temporo-parietal edge of the area of missing scalp and goes forward to the right ear and ends just above the tragus In F7 this appears as the cracked bone flap in front of the ear.. in F3 it is completely covered up and the scalp is shown as intact... Unfortunately the photos and x-rays disagree with the eye witness accounts at both Bethesda and Parkland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 The lateral xray shows the entire right FRONT gone... The anterior... even more of the right side to the front is gone... which matches none of the Fox images... Based on who's interpretation? That certainly wasn't the interpretation of the HSCA based on the photos and X-rays. Ryberg is certainly not the only evidence from the autopsy that suggests an exit point... although "point" is a misnomer... "exit area blown out" is more accurate I clearly stated above that I wasn't referring to the area of missing scalp (i.e. the area of blow out) but to the beveling on the skull which would indicate the exact point the bullet impacted. Yet you dont address the 6:40-8pm Bethesda time other than to dismiss the casket changes and work done by HUMES on the body... What do you think was happening while xrays are being developed yet JFK had just arrived out front What is your source for the 6:40 time? "anterior to the right ear" is the end of that injury's description... isn't anterior TO THE FRONT.. ? So the tear in the skull/scalp from IN FRONT OF THE RIGHT EAR extends to a point ABOVE THE Little bump on the EAR. In the image I posted, the letter a) is just above the tragus with a line extending from the TP-margin,which is even further forward, BACK to the point above the tragus... It's describing the start point and end point of the scalp tear. It starts at the right inferior (lower) temporo-parietal edge of the area of missing scalp and goes forward to the right ear and ends just above the tragus In F7 this appears as the cracked bone flap in front of the ear.. in F3 it is completely covered up and the scalp is shown as intact... Unfortunately the photos and x-rays disagree with the eye witness accounts at both Bethesda and Parkland. Scott, I've stayed out of discussions on the medical evidence for a long time now, having gone back and forth with Pat Speer on all these matters long ago. I basically agree with David Josephs and simply ask: if the chain of possession of Kennedy's body is lost, its worth as evidence in the case is non-existent. Therefore, I believe that the only reliable account of the condition of Kennedy's head would be the earliest recollections of those who saw the body in Dallas, and that includes Clilnt Hill, Jackie, and the Dallas doctors and nurses who made contemporaneous notes. A very good reference book would be First on the Scene by Brad Parker, who has collected a number of early affidavits from Parkland on the condition of Kennedy's head. In a similar point of view, I would argue the earliest recorded recollections of personnel at Bethesda (when they were finally allowed to talk) would be the most accurate, before anyone understood the implications of what they saw. Same with the Dealey Plaza witnesses: their testimony gains weight when they are given early, or if it is clear that what they are saying is given before they have knowledge of the "official" story line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Daniel, I agree that an individuals earliest recollections are more reliable since it tends to eliminate the problem of memory conformity. While I agree with Pat that most of the Parkland witnesses describe a wound in the upper back of the head, I was trying to point out to David that this is also where the earliest accounts of the Bethesda witnesses place it. As I was trying to point out above, the description of the scalp tears in the autopsy report also place the area of missing scalp in right rear of the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Daniel, I agree that an individuals earliest recollections are more reliable since it tends to eliminate the problem of memory conformity. While I agree with Pat that most of the Parkland witnesses describe a wound in the upper back of the head, I was trying to point out to David that this is also where the earliest accounts of the Bethesda witnesses place it. As I was trying to point out above, the description of the scalp tears in the autopsy report also place the area of missing scalp in right rear of the head. In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc... If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... The FBI memo from just after 9:18pm on 11/22 of a bullet still behind the POTUS' ear, and that the SS had secured the other bullet on its way from Dallas... - this was DURING the post 8pm autopsy... With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... by 8pm the scalp did already appear as if a crude craniotomy had been performed to remove most of the remaining brain tissue. with Humes simply extending these lacerations and the skull just fell apart in his hands... (The separation of scalp from skull is one of the harder things to accomplish without precision... not knowing what the man looked like in Dallas facilitated hiding the truth... If one was to read the description of the condition of the head at autopsy, freshly unwrapped... - supposedly not a single thing had been done to the skull from the Parkland ER table to this point... nothing.. and those xrays were taken and those photos were taken.... while ARRB testimony illuminates that crowded little room... Looking again at the lateral xray I am hard pressed to 1) understand Hill's & Bowron's statements or 2) attempting life-saving procedures with no skull from the Frontal bone forward, from mid-line at least, to his cheek, and all the way back to the occipit.... as if a wedge was removed... and 3) dismiss "from the front, nothing" being uttered at the devastation... while the back of his head is open... Bethesda remains the line in the sand... the coup happened in that room under strict and direct order of 3 Navy Rear Admirals and a 4 star AF general. What left that hospital WAS the cover-up of the conspiracy to kill JFK and take over the reins of the USA - overtly and directly... .... Scott - some of the questions you ask about Bethesda are curious given your strong convictions and opinions... how can you dismiss what we've said about that time period when the reference for it comes ultimately from Humes... and then the xray techs developing the first set of film seeing Jackie in the lobby... corroborated reports, sightings, and evidence... Direct FBI testimony that at 7:17 HE and his partner brought JFK into the ante-room of the morgue... calls and timing for Finck to arrive and xrays to be ready.... Again... these "early" accounts - if after 8pm... can you show us what you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc... If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... By earliest I mean the first statements given describing their recollections of the wounds. For many of the witnesses at Bethesda this would be the HSCA. You can start with some of the people you name above. With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... Where does Lifton describe tears radiating fron a hole above the rt. ear. The only illustration I remember of the tears in his book appears to have the tears radiating from a hole in the top of the head. Edited February 18, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc... If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... By earliest I mean the first statements given describing their recollections of the wounds. For many of the witnesses at Bethesda this would be the HSCA. You can start with some of the people you name above. With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... Where does Lifton describe tear radiating fron a hole above the rt. ear. The only illustration I remember of the tears in his book appears to have the tears radiating from a hole in the top of the head. I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45. YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy... Regarding Lifton... there is a very specific area of the book that goes into detail about the processes and the location of "extended tears" in the scalp... If DSL is around and reading this he can surely point you to the exact pages/sections... but you need to READ it Scott... not everything can be summed up with illustrations... I then went ahead and found and posted the procedures related to that part of the autopsy... to help illustrate the situation for you... I still have the same questions you seem to avoid - 1) what occurred between 6:40 and 8pm at the Bethesda morgue? 2) If xrays of JFK are being developed - who do Sibert/O'Neill/Greer and Kellerman bring into the ante-room at 7:17... ?? After Galloway delays McHugh at the front of the Hospital... 3) what is the MDW dooing at 8pm with a casket? Addressing these questions will go a long way in our understanding your POV here Scott.... either you get it or you deny it... and if you deny it - an explanation is in order... Thanks DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45. YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy... Do you mean the shipping casket O'Connor said "came in at eight o'clock on the dot" buddy? Are you suggesting that the hole seen in Parkland wasn't there after 8:00? Edited February 18, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Regarding Lifton... there is a very specific area of the book that goes into detail about the processes and the location of "extended tears" in the scalp... If DSL is around and reading this he can surely point you to the exact pages/sections... but you need to READ it Scott... not everything can be summed up with illustrations... I then went ahead and found and posted the procedures related to that part of the autopsy... to help illustrate the situation for you... " Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... " Oh I've read it and seen the illustration and there's nothing "in the exact spots" you illustrated. You seem to be saying that there's missing scalp above the right ear. Edited February 18, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45. YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy... Do you mean the shipping casket O'Connor said "came in at eight o'clock on the dot" buddy? Are you suggesting that the hole seen in Parkland wasn't there after 8:00? Scott, if you're going to be cute and witty, post what was written, or what he actually said with a link to the source - as opposed to your paraphasing... k, buddy? MD64: O'Connor said that the casket was a pink shipping casket and it arrived approximately eight o'clock http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=389587 So how accurate is that statement Scott? Given all the other testimony we have about that time period... is it not possible the HSCA written paraphrased time is not right? If you have the source for his exact quote as you posted... please post the link... I simply posted the quote from his HSCA recap written by Jim Kelley and Andy Purdy thanks. In the meantime, if the casket with JFK in it did not arrive until "8:00 on the dot"... how is this testimony possible - and getting earlier and earlier with each investigation? (let alone all the other evidence regarding the pre-8pm time frame WCR Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening HSCA Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening ARRB Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy? A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately. What I am saying - outright without suggestion whatsoever... is that the 2-3 inch hole in the right rear of JFK's head as seen in Dallas was enlarged to cover the entire right side of the head from back to front... and in the process the original wound was obliterated, the brain showing the path of the bullet - obliterated, and that the skull/scalp/brain injuries described as obvious and evidence to those in the morgue after 8pm - and recorded in the autopsy - were ALL created by HUMES to make it impossible to determine what actually happened. I post this graphic yet again in hopes you can see that it shows the complete difference between those in Dallas and those in DC prior to 8pm... Boswell's drawing comes AFTER HUMES performs "surgery to the top of the head".... and as we can see - not a single person who sees JFK prior to 8pm says a different thing... while all those after 8pm and after the damage is done, describes a thoroughly enlarged and completely changed injury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Scott, if you're going to be cute and witty, post what was written, or what he actually said with a link to the source - as opposed to your paraphasing... k, buddy? MD64: O'Connor said that the casket was a pink shipping casket and it arrived approximately eight o'clock http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=389587 So how accurate is that statement Scott? Given all the other testimony we have about that time period... is it not possible the HSCA written paraphrased time is not right? If you have the source for his exact quote as you posted... please post the link... I simply posted the quote from his HSCA recap written by Jim Kelley and Andy Purdy thanks. Best Evidence - David Lifton Pg. 598 Taken from his interview of O'Connor. K Buddy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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