Scott Tame Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Scott... instead of assuming what I think... ANSWER THE QUESTION that I pose above to Pat... 8pm is the official start of the autopsy, the time the MDW carries the casket into the morgue... Well, Dave, I asked you a number of times why you attached special significance to 8:00, You refused to answer. Where your theory completely falls apart is your argument that wounds were altered to hide a shot from the front, and then the head is reconstructed to take photos and x-rays that conflict with the wound alterations just performed. Anybody reading this thread who is curious about the wound alteration theory should read the review of Inside the ARRB at CTKA.net Edited February 21, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Boyers ". . . right side and towards the rear. . ." Ebersole ". . . my recollection is more of a gaping occipital wound . . ." (Please see what FINCK says about Ebersole*... HE was the one who interpreted the autopsy xrays... and yet HE is an occipital wound witness?) Jenkins ". . . middle temporal region back to the occipital." O'Niell drew a wound above and behind the ear for the HSCA. Reed told the HSCA the wound was very large and located in the right hemisphere in the occipital region. Riebe told the HSCA there was one very large wound located around the rear of the head near the top. Siebert ". . . upper back of the head." Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... We see once again you simply cannot address the 6:40-8pm timeframe and how the drawings/witnesses of a 2-3 inch hole in the back of his head becomes the ENTIRE SKULL MISSING from the occipital to the Frontal bone fron the Midline down to the ear... These people didn't up and leave at 8:00, Dave, so that makes them post 8:00 witnesses as well. Edited February 21, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 David, there was no official timekeeper at Kennedy's autopsy, nor is there at other autopsies. A day or a week or a month later someone sits down and says "Hmmm, what time was that again?" And then writes something down. Never in a million years do they dream that some day someone will come along and claim they really performed two autopsies, and that the discrepancies in their recollection when compared to the recollections of others present at the autopsy is the proof. I mean, what time did you have dinner last night? 7:00? Because your wife said you ate at 6:00. Oh, I see, you left for the restaurant at 6, arrived at 6:20, got your table at 6:40, ordered at 6:45, and received your meal at 7:00. Well, then why did your wife say 6:00? Sorry, but I think all the nit-picking regarding the exact time of the autopsy is just nonsense. As far as Ebersole, he was not the first string radiologist at Bethesda. He was pretty much just filling in. More telling, he left radiology a short time after the assassination to become a radiation oncologist--someone who tries to cure cancer with radiation therapy. And here's the kicker, all the radiation he dished out to others--in an effort to save others--killed him. Now, here's the other kicker. In the late 50's, the Federal Government was actively engaged in an effort to downplay people's fears of radiation. The military wanted people to believe we could "win" a nuclear war if need be, and the fear of radiation just wasn't helpful, you see. So they sponsored some studies, and some very prestigious doctors made the rounds telling doctors and radiologists that their fears of radiation were exaggerated. I found an article on one such presentation. Three doctors spoke at a radiology convention, and told those present that the fear of radiation in the workplace was greatly exaggerated. Two of the three doctors were...wait for it...Dr. Russell Morgan of the Clark Panel, and Dr. G.M. McDonnel, the HSCA's chief radiology consultant. Now, ain't that a coinkydink. The radiologists for the Clark Panel and HSCA helped kill the radiologist at Kennedy's autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Davies Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 To clear the perception that radiation oncologists die from radiation, I would point out that patients are left alone in radiation "bunkers" while radiation is provided by mobile, computerized machines. I speak from personal experience of 38 consecutive radiation treatments last May-July. I never met anyone who claimed that an oncologist was present in the room while radiation treatment was provided. One can't become a "medical specialist" by reading medical books. I have read several, yet I would clearly defer to the expertise of doctors who have attended medical school, worked on cadavers, completed residencies, then fellowships, and then entered specialized practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 To clear the perception that radiation oncologists die from radiation, I would point out that patients are left alone in radiation "bunkers" while radiation is provided by mobile, computerized machines. I speak from personal experience of 38 consecutive radiation treatments last May-July. I never met anyone who claimed that an oncologist was present in the room while radiation treatment was provided. One can't become a "medical specialist" by reading medical books. I have read several, yet I would clearly defer to the expertise of doctors who have attended medical school, worked on cadavers, completed residencies, then fellowships, and then entered specialized practice. Ebersole worked with radiation from the 50's to the 90's. When he began, a lot of the safety practices performed today were not performed. So, of course, he was exposed to much more radiation than normal. But you are correct to point out that there's no way of knowing that caused his death. For all we know, he was a heavy smoker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 David, there was no official timekeeper at Kennedy's autopsy, nor is there at other autopsies. A day or a week or a month later someone sits down and says "Hmmm, what time was that again?" And then writes something down. Never in a million years do they dream that some day someone will come along and claim they really performed two autopsies, and that the discrepancies in their recollection when compared to the recollections of others present at the autopsy is the proof. I mean, what time did you have dinner last night? 7:00? Because your wife said you ate at 6:00. Oh, I see, you left for the restaurant at 6, arrived at 6:20, got your table at 6:40, ordered at 6:45, and received your meal at 7:00. Well, then why did your wife say 6:00? Sorry, but I think all the nit-picking regarding the exact time of the autopsy is just nonsense LOL... as if we're talking about when we had dinner last night... good one Pat. After looking thru all the PRE-8pm evidence I posted, you still want to take the position that JFK was not in the morgue having xrays done prior to 7pm? That Humes is wrong about 6:45-7pm That the FBI/Ss agents did NOT bring in an empty casket at 7:17 That the xray techs carrying the films up for developing as the ambulance arrives did NOT see Jackie and Bobby enter while the casket lay in the ambulance That Dennis David and a team of men did NOT carry in a metal shipping casket from a black hearse That HUMES did not call FINCK who arrived at 8:30 to a set of xrays that would take much longer than 15-20 minutes to take and develop, if they had started at 8pm That Lipsey - giving away the "decoy" plan - mistakenly forgets to account fro getting the body out of the first casket and into the other. Let's start with two simple questions then Pat... when did the ambulance arrive at the front of Bethesda in relation to when the autopsy started? and the second... Why is there such a huge conflict in the times of arrival? From Boyijean, to Dennis David, to the xray tech, to the SS/FBI movement of the casket, to the MDW's report... none of them jive... the MDW report - from Bird - http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=694&relPageId=1 states some very interesting info: 1) It either claims to have moved JFK from AF-1 to the ambulance at 6:10 or 7:10 based on how you read it... yet the movement from the ambulance to the morgue occurs at 2000 (8pm) 2) It states that there were two helicopters flown from Andrews related to the MDW, one with Wehle and one with a second casket team, both landing at Bethesda... page 3, section 1 paragraph H... and 3) in Section 2 paragraph A. it says that the helicopters arrived at 6:45 and immediately thereafter the ambulance arrived at the hospital, except while Galloway is talking to McHugh there is considerable confusion as to where the body would be taken (as if that was a trick question?) but the FIRST Joint team finally does find both the ambulance and casket... and records an 8pm entry... ------------------------ This sure makes it appear that EXACT TIME was recorded... somewhere... in a report of something or is he just pulling this out of his ..... ?? Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane? Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14. Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities? Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m. Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas? Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48. Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area? Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir? Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to. Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report. Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours. Then there is the testimony of FBI agent Sibert in MD153 which confirms the arrival and "immediate" loading times.... Are you actually going to take the position that the time Kellerman, Greer and the FBI brings the casket in and what the MDW did are not mutually exclusive? Are you also going to try and convince us that the navy ambulance sits out front for an hour before the MDW finally meets up with it at the back and carries the casket into the morgue? Or are these two facts that every schoolboy should know at this point? And what of Lipsey's statement? which in turn has to mean that the body which entered the plane in the Parkland casket, was somehow changed... which also jives with the 2 Joint Casket teams arriving at Bethesda prior to 7pm. Lipsey's statement: The hearse carrying Kennedy’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital’s rear entrance, a loading dock. Lipsey and Wehle had hopped from Air Force One to the hospital in a helicopter. A “decoy” hearse, accompanied by Jacqueline Kennedy and presidential aides, had arrived at the front of the hospital a few minutes earlier. As expected, it drew a mob of awaiting reporters, photographers and onlookers. Here is the After Action Report of the MDW... pages 2 and 6 are of particular interest as it tells of the SS interference with the casket, the time of arrival, and how only the path from the helipad to the morgue was "guarded" as the instruction to the MDW was that JFK was arriving via helicopter. http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx and finally the WCR itself contradicts the "official" report.... based on Humes' own testimony... The WCR: The hospital received the President's body for autopsy at approximately 7:35 p.m. (277) http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-2.html#return 277: 2 H 349 (Comdr. James J. Humes). http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-18.html#chapter2 Except HUMES tells us earlier and earlier as the years pass.... While I can understand there being some discrepency in times recorded... why do you suppose so much of it includes arrival times well before the "official" 8pm unveiling of the skull that falls apart in Humes' hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 There is no real contradiction between the report and what the witnesses remembered. I would agree with that assessment, Pat. The pictures didn't always reflect what the witnesses remembered, as is expected in all cases where witnesses are grilled on something that happened years and sometimes decades before. Yes, but the pictures and x-rays don't even agree with what is written in the autopsy report which was not written years later. The area of missing scalp is not the only problem: the entrance wound has moved up four inches; the trail of metallic fragments has also moved; now there is beveling indicating bullet direction evident on the skull; and a nice big bullet fragment has suddenly appeared on the outside of the skull just below the new and improved entrance site. We're not talking a few minor discrepancies here. It's a whole new set of wounds. Boyers--Not a CT Ebersole--Not a CT--he even signed documents saying that the evidence was legit Jenkins--probably a CT, but not an alterationist. I spoke with him this past November in Dallas, and his words suggested that he believed that the autopsy photos and x-rays are legit. He was adamant, in fact, that there was NO blow-out wound low on the back of the head.(I've never said low) O'Neill--Not a CT. Saw no evidence for a shot from the front. Reed--Possibly a CT. Along with Custer and Riebe, Reed signed off on the authenticity of the medical evidence when interviewed by the ARRB, and shown the originals. Sibert--Not a CT. Saw no evidence for a shot from the front. Whether they are a CT or not is irrelevant. Siebert & O'Neill aren't CT's and they say the photos don't match what they saw. What is relevant is where they saw the wounds. Some of these witnesses do indeed claim the photos are accurate. But they also believe the hole they saw in the back of the head is being concealed by a flap of scalp being held up. The same hole that the morticians couldn't conceal by stretching, pulling, undermining and suturing the scalp. Here's a few more back of the head witnesses from Bethesda: Roy Kellerman William Greer Clint Hill Thomas Robinson John Van Hoesen So let’s address Clint Hill. I'm glad he later clarified that when he first said right rear of the head TWICE he actually meant above the ear. I'll refer you back to the article you cited in Science Magazine in an earlier thread. Sounds like a bad case of memory conformity. Ditto for Ebersole, and who knows how many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) ...I still have the same questions you seem to avoid - 1) what occurred between 6:40 and 8pm at the Bethesda morgue? 2) If xrays of JFK are being developed - who do Sibert/O'Neill/Greer and Kellerman bring into the ante-room at 7:17... ?? After Galloway delays McHugh at the front of the Hospital... 3) what is the MDW dooing at 8pm with a casket? Addressing these questions will go a long way in our understanding your POV here Scott.... either you get it or you deny it... and if you deny it - an explanation is in order... Thanks DJ Very interested in this set of questions as well as any response. Edited February 22, 2014 by B. A. Copeland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) ...I still have the same questions you seem to avoid - 1) what occurred between 6:40 and 8pm at the Bethesda morgue? 2) If xrays of JFK are being developed - who do Sibert/O'Neill/Greer and Kellerman bring into the ante-room at 7:17... ?? After Galloway delays McHugh at the front of the Hospital... 3) what is the MDW dooing at 8pm with a casket? Addressing these questions will go a long way in our understanding your POV here Scott.... either you get it or you deny it... and if you deny it - an explanation is in order... Thanks DJ Very interested in this set of questions as well as any response. Well, if we are to go by eyewitness accounts: 6:45 a shipping casket comes in according to Dennis David (he doesn't see a body) 7:17 the Dallas casket comes in with JFKs body (O'Neill see's the body removed and unwrapped) 8:00 JFKs body is brought in again in the Dallas casket by the MDW team 8:00 JFKs body is brought in in a shipping casket(source Paul O'Connor) Edited February 23, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Humes claims he sees the body at 6:45-7pm... so again Scott... who was in the casket Greer, Kellerman, O'Neil and Sibert bring in if Humes is already with the body? At 7:17, the casket is brought in... where does the MDW get its casket if its already in the morgue while JFK was already there having xrays taken? Scott... do you not get the situation with O'Connor? He was there prior to 7pm... he was asked to leave between 7-8pm for the "pre-autopsy xrays" and "examination" That's why the stories seem to overlap... btw - you may wish to look a bit more deeply into the FBI's location and "seeing" the body come out of the casket between 7:17 and 8pm... you might be quite surprised how much CYA was done so Hoover didn't find out where they really were for most of the pre 8pm time period... these FBI men do finally admit they too were removed from the ante-room before the casket was opened, and NOT allowed into the morgue prior to 8pm... and there is quite a bit more than "eyewitness accounts" - you're on the right track at least... and maybe when you review ALL of the testimony and correlate it... you will see that the surgeon general of the navy and the commander of Bethesda were in on the movement and alteration of JFK from the moment he arrived.... How again does Humes see a body in the morgue, xrays are taken and processed, all while the FBI/SS brings in the ambulance casket at 6:17 and the MDW does the entire thing again at 8pm? Can you connect the dots for us and show us there was nothing happening to JFK's body at the time.. you know - chain of possession of the BEST EVIDENCE... the body, tells alot about the autopsy and and those involved in the movement of said body... You are of the opinion that if ROSE did the autopsy in Dallas, the autopsy medical record would be the same as what we got from Bethesda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) "Humes claims he sees the body at 6:45-7pm... so again Scott... who was in the casket Greer, Kellerman, O'Neil and Sibert bring in if Humes is already with the body?" Humes WC testimony is 7:35. This is what Daniel and I were talking about before about the earliest recollections being the most accurate. "At 7:17, the casket is brought in... where does the MDW get its casket if its already in the morgue while JFK was already there having xrays taken?" Scott... do you not get the situation with O'Connor? He was there prior to 7pm... he was asked to leave between 7-8pm for the "pre-autopsy xrays" and "examination" That's why the stories seem to overlap..." The thought that it could be due to faulty memory never entered your mind? O'Connor said the "shipping casket" arrived "at eight o'clock on the dot" He can't be right on both accounts. "these FBI men do finally admit they too were removed from the ante-room before the casket was opened," Do you have a source for this? O'Neill told the HSCA he was there when the casket was opened. You still can't explain why they would alter the wounds to show one thing then reconstruct the head to take photos and x-rays that conflict with the alterations they just made and what they eventually describe in their autopsy report. Edited February 24, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) Boyers ". . . right side and towards the rear. . ." Ebersole ". . . my recollection is more of a gaping occipital wound . . ." (Please see what FINCK says about Ebersole*... HE was the one who interpreted the autopsy xrays... and yet HE is an occipital wound witness?) Jenkins ". . . middle temporal region back to the occipital." O'Niell drew a wound above and behind the ear for the HSCA. Reed told the HSCA the wound was very large and located in the right hemisphere in the occipital region. Riebe told the HSCA there was one very large wound located around the rear of the head near the top. Siebert ". . . upper back of the head." Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... WHOA!! Hold on there! It's YOUR position that Siebert and O'Neill brought in an empty casket at 7:17 and the body didn't come in until 8:00 so that makes them both post 8:00 witnesses by YOUR account. The rest didn't just disappear at 8:00. They were still there after as well. (So this witness - Ebersole - is able to look at the lateral xray and claim he sees a massive occipital wound ??? Right!) No "this witness" didn't look at the lateral x-ray and claim he saw a massive occipital wound. This quote is from Ebersole when he is being shown autopsy photo 42 of the back of the head. Edited February 24, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) And what of Lipsey's statement? which in turn has to mean that the body which entered the plane in the Parkland casket, was somehow changed... which also jives with the 2 Joint Casket teams arriving at Bethesda prior to 7pm. Lipsey's statement: The hearse carrying Kennedy’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital’s rear entrance, a loading dock. Lipsey and Wehle had hopped from Air Force One to the hospital in a helicopter. A “decoy” hearse, accompanied by Jacqueline Kennedy and presidential aides, had arrived at the front of the hospital a few minutes earlier. As expected, it drew a mob of awaiting reporters, photographers and onlookers. Sorry, David, but that is not Lipsey's statement. You have it backwards. His words do not suggest Mrs. Kennedy was in the decoy hearse. They suggest she rode with the body and then walked around the front after the body was delivered to the back. www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm LIPSEY: We met the body at Andrews Airforce Base. We had everything organized by that afternoon. We had Marines organized with their little Honor Guard. We had the men from Ft. Meyer, the third old [?] guard, the guys like at Humphry's funeral, the ceremonial guard that watched the casket. The ceremonial troop in Washington had been arranged to meet the body at Andrews. Put it in a hearse. We had a decoy hearse because we knew there was a mob waiting at Bethesda Naval Hospital. So we got in a couple of these helicopters with our honor guard when they left and flew over to the hospital to get there before they did. And when they came in, one of the hearses went right up to the front door. All of the crowd, of course, rushed over there. The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it. We met them in the back and unloaded it right there to avoid the news media and the crowd and everything else. Q: The body was brought in the rear? LIPSEY: The body was brought in the back door, backed right up to the loading ramp right immediately next to the morgue. And we unloaded it there and then Jackie Kennedy and her family and everybody that was, you know, flown to Washington and come back with the body, they came in the hospital the front way and went upstairs to the Presidential Suite at the hospital. Gen. Wehle went up to the suite to start to talk to Mrs. Kennedy to make the funeral arrangements with her, tentative arrangements mind you, because this was still early. Seeing what they wanted done and getting more wheels into motion because we didn't know exactly to do. And Gen Wehle told me, "Don't leave this body!" "You don't leave it," and I didn't except when he came back down and went in and spelled me for a little while. Edited February 24, 2014 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Sorry, David, but that is not Lipsey's statement. You have it backwards. His words do not suggest Mrs. Kennedy was in the decoy hearse. They suggest she rode with the body and then walked around the front after the body was delivered to the back. I never said a word about who was in a decoy hearse or if there was one Pat, Lipsey does... you're so busy justifying your nonsense you don't read the posts... Now you are claiming that the same ambulance that delivered the casket and Jackie, drove to the morgue with them in it, dropped it off and then she WALKED to the front... What planet are you on Pat? Why does Lipsey talk about a decoy HEARSE, not ambulance, and that the body is met at the back by him and Wehle and Bird and the MDW... and if he is correct, JFK had to have been removed from the images below and put into thei OTHER CASKET at some point... Or he is full of it... and there was not body in the casket at the front of the hospital... the body was in the morgue, xrays and alteration in full swing, as Jackie, Bobbie, Pamela et al... are sent to the upper floors... If you have ANY PROOF of what you claim, post it. And when they came in, one of the hearses went right up to the front door. Which one of the "hearses" went to the front door - The AMBULANCE with the casket, Jackie, Bobby etc... or the HEARSE with the decoy? When/where was there a DECOY HEARSE AND CASKET and how did JFK's body get into that one - when we all see him loaded in the big bronze casket into the navy ambulance which parked out fron and let Jackie and Bobby and party off before being lost until 8pm.... ?? All of the crowd, of course, rushed over there. The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it Which "one" (Ambulance or Hearse) is Lipsey here talking about Pat...? Does not appear to be the same as the ambulance the casket was loaded into... there was a HEARSE WITH A DECOY CASKET (a metal shipping casket ) in the motorcade from Andrews to Bethesda now that is driven to the morgue and met by helicopters in the back? So now you are saying that the FBI/SS KNEW they were carrying in an empty casket at 7:17? Okay... Since JFK had arrived with the motorcade, in a BLACK HEARSE in a DIFFERENT CASKET... how did he get there? So Pat... is JFK in THIS Casket at THIS time? I see Jackie at the bottom of the stairs.... GREER: .....I boarded USAF Plane #26000 and returned to Andrews AFB, Wash. D.C. From Andrews AFB, I drove the U.S. Navy ambulance with the President's Body, accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General to the U.S. Naval Medical Center. I assisted Mr. Kellerman while the autopsy was being performed and then drove the ambulance with the President's body to the White House and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up. Senator COOPER. The President? Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face. (you've SEEN the anterior xray, right Pat... where the bone is gone on the right side down to his cheek and back to his ear?) ....Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh. In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. Kellerman's Report: While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found. Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present. O'NEILL: A: Every single moment. Every single moment. There was no possibility that the vehicle stopped-or the ambulance stopped; that anybody took a casket out, switched any bodies, as some ”authors”- because they’re not authors-some people have said. No way at all. Nothing. So, now we’re out at Andrews- excuse me. We’re out at Bethesda Naval Station. We come in through the main gate. Now we have naval personnel on either sides. Now we have other individuals. there are people watching it, looking at it. The ambulance moved in front. Mrs. - Q: The front of the hospital? A: The front of the hospital. Now, bear in mind, I’m familiar with the hospital there, and so is Jim, because we our physical examinations there every year. So, we were familiar with a good portion of the hospital itself. Mrs. Kennedy got out. Bobby Kennedy got out. And people from the - from the hospital itself - I believe that Admiral Holloway (sic) chatted and talked. In the first car, which was in front of us, was Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell, Godfrey McHugh-General McHugh was the - I think, maybe Admiral Burkley or somebody. But there was a group of people there. After some small talk, evidently, in in front, Kellerman went into the hospital. Bobby Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and probably Burkley, went in and went up to either the 17th or 19th floor. And now WC have Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell and McHugh chatting in front of the Place. They were there for a period of time. And Jim and I are looking at each other - Oh, Pamela Turnure, by the way, got out, too. She went with Mrs. Kennedy. The valet went in also, I guess. There was a period of time nothing happened. Jim and I looked at each other, and we decided to find out what the story was. We went up to Larry O’Brien and said, “What’s the delay?” And as best I recall, he said, ‘Well, they don’t know”- Greer was the driver of the ambulance – “where the autopsy room is” Q: Did you see-other than the Navy gray ambulance that the casket was in, did you see any other ambulances out at Bethesda? A: Not- well, there were other ambulance’s there. But I-but not, to the best of my recollection, that any took off, or any had the body in it, or anything like that. Q: Did you see any hearses at Andrews-I’m sorry. A: Hearse? No. Q: At Bethesda? A: No, sir. Q: okay. We can continue with his ARRB testimony if you like... but the information you pass off as FACT is severely wanting in every aspect... Jackie did NOT walk from the morgue to the front, Lipsey does not say this - in fact not a soul does... your INFERENCES notwithstanding... can you please stick to presenting FACTS with SOURCES... and not what you THINK Lipsey means.... So far every piece of evidence I have posted has been corroborated by numerous sources... you going to address my questions or does your shell game continue? DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) If you take the middle of this wound of exit, the general direction of this missile path, p-a-t-h, is from the rear to the front going downward (CE388 (AUTOPSY "evidence" and reality) Very good, David! You've shown what I've been saying all along. There are serious conflicts with the autopsy evidence. The x-rays show a downward trajectory and the autopsy report describes an upward trajectory. According to you Humes made alterations showing an upward one then reconstructed the head showing a downward one all in a matter of hours. Why would anyone do that? Who creates evidence that seriously conflicts with alterations they allegedly just made of the wounds? Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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