Nick Bartetzko Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I have only a vague recollection of this and could not find anything on the forum via a search. Quite some time ago, I believe Jack White mentioned that Carolyn Arnold was still working in the Dallas area and had a different last name. When she retired, she said she would reveal more details about her seeing LHO in the lunch room between 1215 - 1225pm. IIRC, Arnold has been interviewed a number of times on this subject. Does anybody recall Jack White's comments and does anyone know the whereabouts of Caroyn Arnold...or is my memory off on this? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 This is pure speculation on my part, but if I recall correctly in a David Lifton interview on Night Fright about his long awaited Final Charade book he says that in the book he will have a woman who finally decided to come forward with the fact that at the very time of the assassination she was giving Oswald change for the Coke machine. Or something to that effect. I don't remember enough about Carolyn Arnold's movements after she saw or caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald within 5 to 10 minutes of the shooting, but when I heard this from Lifton her name was the first one that popped into my head as to who this mystery woman could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 (edited) This is a bit off bringing up the double Oswalds. Reasoning that if you were an assassin bent on shooting Kennedy wouldn't you be on the 6th floor waiting to do that? The motorcade was due to pass the depository somewhere around 12:00 or 12:10. Why would Oswald be downstairs at 12:15 to 12:25 when he should be upstairs watching out the window on the sixth floor armed and dangerous? It could be there was one Oswald upstairs and another downstairs providing an alibi for the two. Many researcher believe that there were at least two Oswalds at the TSBD because of the way they left the depository after the assassination. More than two Oswalds? Could be. Chauncey Holt said he took 4 indentities to New Orleans for Oswald. They were Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee Henry Oswald, Leon Osbourne, and Alex Hiddell. Edited March 1, 2021 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Not off at all! I own a copy of John Armstrong's massive investigation into just that aspect Harvey And Lee so you won't find any ridicule from me on that subject, haha. It's funny that you point out the fake ID's because I had just posted not that long ago about all of the confusion surrounding Oswald's name. You were hearing everything from Lee Harold to Lee Henry to Lee Harvey. I even saw an interview where the guy (can't remember which guy it was, I'm thinking David Atlee Phillips) was discussing the supposed Mexico City phone recordings to the Soviet Embassy and he says Lee Henry Oswald to the interviewer. Going back to the original topic, you are spot on that if Oswald were the assassin then he would have been up in that window and ready to fire and the motorcade indeed was running a little late. And if he were just going by the time it said in the papers then he should have been up there well in advance of 10 to 15 minutes till 12:30. You'd think he would have been up there at 12 or earlier waiting if the lone nutters are right, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Cohen Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 hours ago, John Butler said: Chauncey Holt said he took 4 indentities to New Orleans for Oswald Chauncey Holt lied about being one of the tramps in Dealey Plaza, a claim completely undermined by the actual arrest records from 11/22/63. Why then should we believe anything he has to say about providing forged paperwork for Oswald? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamey Flanagan Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Well, not saying I have a strong opinion one way or another on Chauncey Holt or any of his claims but if you believe every document you see coming from our government (which is corrupt) or the Dallas PD (which was unbelievably corrupt back then) then I'm sure you believe Oswald did it all himself with no help and it was just an open and shut case. I, for one, do not believe for a second that the names they all of a sudden came up with DECADES later for these arrested "tramps" are actually the ones arrested that day. And IF by some miracle they actually are the same people then I definitely do not believe for a second that they were really just tramps and that nothing nefarious was going on with them. You don't conceal something unless there is a reason to conceal it. The fact that it took decades for them to provide information on them even after many books and articles suggesting they were involved in the plot is pretty revealing if you ask me. But maybe I'm just a "conspiracy theorist" by nature, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said: Not off at all! I own a copy of John Armstrong's massive investigation into just that aspect Harvey And Lee so you won't find any ridicule from me on that subject, haha. It's funny that you point out the fake ID's because I had just posted not that long ago about all of the confusion surrounding Oswald's name. You were hearing everything from Lee Harold to Lee Henry to Lee Harvey. I even saw an interview where the guy (can't remember which guy it was, I'm thinking David Atlee Phillips) was discussing the supposed Mexico City phone recordings to the Soviet Embassy and he says Lee Henry Oswald to the interviewer. Going back to the original topic, you are spot on that if Oswald were the assassin then he would have been up in that window and ready to fire and the motorcade indeed was running a little late. And if he were just going by the time it said in the papers then he should have been up there well in advance of 10 to 15 minutes till 12:30. You'd think he would have been up there at 12 or earlier waiting if the lone nutters are right, lol! Jamey F, Right. I'm a strong supporter of the Harvey and Lee scenario. I don't want to say theory. It is more than a theory. I have one or two differences with the Harvey and Lee folks. I don't contest it because their version is factual to the point in what they are saying. I'm just going a little further on certain things based on my interpretation of the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said: Chauncey Holt lied about being one of the tramps in Dealey Plaza, a claim completely undermined by the actual arrest records from 11/22/63. Why then should we believe anything he has to say about providing forged paperwork for Oswald? Jonathan C., About being in Dealey Plaza as one of the Tramps, I agree with you, but for different reasons. Chauncy Holt was a career criminal and a long time CIA agent. Anything he says has to be looked at very carefully. Chauncy Holt was in New Orleans and was in contact with and close proximity to Oswald in a film in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart. This was a dying man at the end of his life in the interview in the video Spooks, Hoods, and JFK. Perhaps, he wanted to be truthful for once. He died 8 days later. On the other hand, Chauncy Holt was a very loyal person. Perhaps, he wanted to spread one last bit of disinformation as a last act for the CIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Chauncy Holt: Assassin, or alternative Patsy, or both? Holt said in a video interview with Wm Dankmar (sp) that he was in the boxcar he was instructed to hide out in if there was trouble. He was in the boxcar by 12:31 or 12:32. What if he was in that boxcar before 12:30. What if that boxcar was on the Triple Underpass and he was a member of one of the shooting teams in the assassination. Holt was a weapons expert and an expert marksman. According to his stories be was a lookout for the killing of Bugsy Siegel, a member of a 5 man assassination team sent to Guatemala in 1953 or 1954. He stated he was involved with the assassination of Trujillo in the Domincan Republic. He didn't say he was an assassin, but hinted at it. With that kind of background he could very well have been in a boxcar shooting from the Triple Underpass up Elm Street. Chauncy Holt, Bill Shelley, Lee Harvey Oswald I believe were being set up as patsies for the assassination of JFK. All 3 are seen in a New Orleans photo/frame near the Trade Mart. Holt said there was ammunitiion and explosives in the boxcar. He also mentioned he was nervous about being blown up and made into a patsy. This has went way off the thread's original. I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Cohen Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 On 3/1/2021 at 12:47 PM, John Butler said: They were Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee Henry Oswald, Leon Osbourne, and Alex Hiddell. Not to take this topic further off into a tangent, but at the 11:40 mark of this presentation, John Newman makes a very credible case for the use of "Lee Henry Oswald" in conjunction with the Mexico City episode being an innocent error on the part of John Whitten, and not part of some larger obfuscation. It's all the more reason not to believe anything Chauncy Holt said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Bojczuk Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) John Butler writes: Quote It could be there was one Oswald upstairs and another downstairs providing an alibi for the two. Many researcher believe that there were at least two Oswalds at the TSBD because of the way they left the depository after the assassination. More than two Oswalds? Could be. Chauncey Holt said he took 4 indentities to New Orleans for Oswald. They were Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee Henry Oswald, Leon Osbourne, and Alex Hiddell. I'm a strong supporter of the Harvey and Lee scenario. I don't want to say theory. It is more than a theory. Sorry to disappoint Mr Butler, but the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense was finally put out of its misery last year. Although 2020 wasn't a very good year in many ways, it was good for rational critics of the lone-gunman fantasy: there is now one less piece of ammunition available for those who want to depict all of us as tin-foil hat-wearing crazies. We discovered that the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense cannot be true, because every aspect of it that has been examined in detail has been shown to have a perfectly plausible alternative explanation. For example: (a) The 'Oswald doppelganger' arrested in the Texas Theater wasn't a doppelganger, and he wasn't even arrested: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=407170 (b) The notion that an 'Oswald doppelganger' attended Stripling school, which was touted as the definitive proof of the dastardly plot, was thoroughly dismantled by Mark Stevens and others: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26639-the-stripling-episode-harvey-lee-a-critical-review/ (c) The 'Oswald doppelganger' who had a tooth knocked out ("game, set and match for the Harvey and Lee theory", according to Jim Hargrove before he went into hiding) turned out to have not one but two plausible alternative explanations: https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t227-armstrong-s-magic-tooth-and-the-facts-about-harvey-at-beauregard and https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26512-arguments-against-the-harvey-lee-theory-the-missing-tooth/ (d) The 'Oswald doppelganger' who had a 13-inch head turned out, unsurprisingly, not to have had a 13-inch head: https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1412-the-13-inch-head-explained-for-sandy Not only do we know that the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense cannot be true, but we also know why it cannot be true. The purpose of the elaborate double-doppelganger scheme was, apparently, to produce an American who could understand spoken Russian to a reasonable level. I pointed out the fatal problem with this idea last September (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/page/86/ ) : Quote Whether the doppelganger was a native or non-native speaker of Russian, the problem is the same. The scheme was unnecessarily complex, expensive and inefficient. The possibility of setting it up would surely not even have occurred to the masterminds. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory's preposterous long-term double-doppelganger scheme could never have been implemented. The masterminds had a much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient way to achieve their goal: find an American with a knack for languages, get him up to speed in Russian, then send him off to Moscow. Here's the question the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful have been unable to answer: Why did the masterminds not do this? If Mr Butler has an answer to this question, he should feel free to continue the conversation on that thread: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/page/86/ Incidentally, there's a plausible explanation of Oswald's acquisition of Russian here: http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language No doppelgangers required! Edited March 8, 2021 by Jeremy Bojczuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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