Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Pat Speer]

James,

According to testimony and accompanying exhibit CE-354, YOUNGBLOOD identified the location of the Vice Presidential vehicle at the moment the first rifle shot was heard and that it is a location farther down Elm street than the location of the VP vehicle in Altgens #6.

YOUNGBLOODs testimony and identification supports the fact that the first rifle shot heard occurred after Z-255, it in fact occurred at Z-313.

I don't believe this is accurate, Robert. I looked into this years ago when debunking Bugliosi's nonsense and it was clear to me that Youngblood's A for the VP car was in the approximate location of Kennedy's limousine at Z-180. I took from this that, in Yougblood's estimation, Kennedy's limo was in the approximate location of Z-224 when the first shot rang out. FWIW, Governor Connally's estimation for the moment of the first shot was nearly identical.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Pat Speer

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

The weapon used for your silent shot from the Knoll at z189 is VERY important. A supersonic weapon, compressed air or gunpowder driven and suppressed, will send a bullet that will deliver an unmistakeable sonic boom. A subsonic weapon, compressed air or gunpowder driven and suppressed, will deliver a silent bullet, but will lack the accuracy for this range.

You can't have it both ways, and I don't believe rocket propelled flechettes were used.

[Robert Mady]

James,

According to testimony and accompanying exhibit CE-354, YOUNGBLOOD identified the location of the Vice Presidential vehicle at the moment the first rifle shot was heard and that it is a location farther down Elm street than the location of the VP vehicle in Altgens #6.

YOUNGBLOODs testimony and identification supports the fact that the first rifle shot heard occurred after Z-255, it in fact occurred at Z-313.

I don't believe this is accurate, Robert. I looked into this years ago when debunking Bugliosi's nonsense and it was clear to me that Youngblood's A for the VP car was in the approximate location of Kennedy's limousine at Z-180. I took from this that, in Yougblood's estimation, Kennedy's limo was in the approximate location of Z-224 when the first shot rang out. FWIW, Governor Connally's estimation for the moment of the first shot was nearly identical.

Pat, I believe what you are suggesting is revisionism.

YOUNGBLOOD located the position of the VP car at the time he heard the first shot, it was made very clear in testimony, actually the location was conservative the car was likely a little further down elm as depicted in Bronson film at time of shot at Z-313. Posted is evidence from over thirty witnesses that corroborate the first shot heard occurring at Z-313, I probably could post 10 or 20 more. The problem is in comprehending what YOUNGBLOOD claim means and that it is corroborated by the majority of testimony. It is the failure to understand the assassination that creates the confusion.

JC's testimony is of no use to bolster your case, he also supports the first shot occurring at Z-313

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Robert, there was no "unmistakable sonic boom" that is my point, there is no compelling evidence that anyone that heard the first noise heard anything other than a 'firecracker' like sound.

This is why I am resistant to a weapon equipped with a silencer.

This is why the weapon did not drive a missile at a ultra high speed, the missile did not go thru KENNEDYS body but lodged in his neck, it could not have been moving enough momentum that it would have gone thru. It was meant to deliver a dose of toxin to kill KENNEDY.

Look at the Z-film, Clint Hill turns at the sound, McIntyre standing next to Hill is oblivious and his attention is not redirected.

LANDIS, READY and HICKEY become aware of it and redirect their attention, but are not alarmed by this sound.

NEWMANS think it is a 'firecracker' or a 'noise' and think nothing more about it other than noticing the President jumped slightly at hearing the sound.

JACKIE never reacted to it, likely never heard it, but reacted to CONNALLY yelling.

JACKIE was not even aware that KENNEDY was wounded, she was aware that KENNEDY was having some problem evidenced by his hands to his throat, but her attention until almost Z-300 was on CONNALLY not KENNEDY.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sonic boom = "firecracker"

Bullets are not jet planes, and the sonic boom made by a suppressed bullet is not going to rattle windows.

So, you think someone is going to be on the Grassy Knoll and take a shot at JFK at z189 with a weapon possessing such a low muzzle velocity, the projectile barely makes it into his throat. Are you aware of the inherent inaccuracy of such a weapon?

And what is the point of introducing a paralyzing toxin into JFK before shooting him? What if this "dart" or whatever it is you have dreamed up missed JFK and landed on the grass on the South side of Elm or, worse, stuck itself in a tree. You don't think that might not look a bit suspicious?

If you had a clear shot, a bullet would be far simpler.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Pat Speer]

James,

According to testimony and accompanying exhibit CE-354, YOUNGBLOOD identified the location of the Vice Presidential vehicle at the moment the first rifle shot was heard and that it is a location farther down Elm street than the location of the VP vehicle in Altgens #6.

YOUNGBLOODs testimony and identification supports the fact that the first rifle shot heard occurred after Z-255, it in fact occurred at Z-313.

I don't believe this is accurate, Robert. I looked into this years ago when debunking Bugliosi's nonsense and it was clear to me that Youngblood's A for the VP car was in the approximate location of Kennedy's limousine at Z-180. I took from this that, in Yougblood's estimation, Kennedy's limo was in the approximate location of Z-224 when the first shot rang out. FWIW, Governor Connally's estimation for the moment of the first shot was nearly identical.

Pat, I believe what you are suggesting is revisionism.

YOUNGBLOOD located the position of the VP car at the time he heard the first shot, it was made very clear in testimony, actually the location was conservative the car was likely a little further down elm as depicted in Bronson film at time of shot at Z-313. Posted is evidence from over thirty witnesses that corroborate the first shot heard occurring at Z-313, I probably could post 10 or 20 more. The problem is in comprehending what YOUNGBLOOD claim means and that it is corroborated by the majority of testimony. It is the failure to understand the assassination that creates the confusion.

JC's testimony is of no use to bolster your case, he also supports the first shot occurring at Z-313

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot.

Okay, now I get it, you're JOKING. Connally spoke about the shooting many times, and ALWAYS--EVERY SINGLE TIME--made it crystal clear that he heard a shot, started to turn around, got hit by a second shot, and then and only then heard the fatal shot at 313's impact, and saw debris cover the car.

He also marked an exhibit showing where he thought Kennedy was when the first shot rang out, It's where the limo was around 224.

And he wasn't the only one to mark such an exhibit.

Notations on CE 347:

• Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, who rode in the front seat of the Presidential limo, marked the motorcade route, marked an X to reflect his appraisal of the limo's location at the moment of the first shot, and marked a Y to reflect his appraisal of the limo's location at the time of the second and third shots. (The version of CE 347 reprinted in the Warren Commission's volumes was nearly unreadable. After playing with the contrast of this image, however, I was able to discern Kellerman's X on the road near the limo's location around frame 190 of the Zapruder film. I was unable to ascertain the precise location of his Y.)
• Secret Service agent William Greer, the driver of Kennedy's limo, marked his appraisal of the limo's location at the time of the first shot with an A, the second shot with a B, and a third shot with a C. (I was able to discern Greer's A at a location around frame 220 of the Zapruder film, but was unable to ascertain the locations of his B and his C.)

Notations on CE 354:

• Secret Service agent Clint Hill, who ran from the back-up car and climbed onto the trunk during the shooting, marked his appraisal of the location for the first shot with an X, and his appraisal for the second shot he heard-which was the fatal head shot--with a Y. (His X is at around the limo's location at frame 175 of the Zapruder film. His Y is around the location of the limo at frame 220. As the head shot clearly occurred when the limo was much further down the street, it seems likely he placed the first shot too close to the corner as well.)
• Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood, riding in the Vice-Presidential limo two cars back from the President, marked the location of this limo at the time of the first shot with an A. (Youngblood's A is on Elm Street around the President's location at frame 180 of the Zapruder film. As the VP limo was 40-50 feet behind the President's limousine, this places the first shot somewhere between frames 220-230 of the film.)

[Robert Mady]

Pat I would doubt that any of the witnesses I posted were joking :

Mr. RANKIN - Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?
Mr. CURRY - To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN - Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?
Mr. CURRY - Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.
Mr. RANKIN - How many feet do you mean?
Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps, and this is Just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.
Mr. RANKIN - Then at the time of the third shot?
Mr. CURRY - A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.
Mr. RANKIN - Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?
Mr. CURRY - This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.
Mr. RANKIN - Did you hear any more than three shots?

CURRY places limo when first rifle shot is heard at Z-313, followed by 2 more shots in rapid succession where the limo only moves another 15-20-30 feet further during the shooting.

Same testimony as

BREHM

J NEWMAN

J HILL

EMMETT HUDSON

But it is peculiar that you know better, it is not a surprise that you needed to use all government witnesses to promote your perspective. You do realize that JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy and that this treason'es act was covered-up?

Please stop playing games and get serious about evaluating this evidence, I have posted testimony from around 40 witnesses that support the first shot occurring at Z-313, I know that is significantly more than can be put forward to bolster any other scenario /// and I can post many more if need be.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Does anyone, besides me, receive PM's from Gary Mack?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

I, for one, am very interested in seeing statements and testimony from other witnesses that would place the first audible shot further down Elm St. I have long maintained there is something wrong with the official story.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, I just posted around 40 witnesses that placed the first shot at Z-313

How many more postings do you need until you know the first rifle shot heard was at Z-313?

[Mark Knight]

I USED to get PM's from Gary Mack...until I said I wouldn't be his "sock puppet" and share his posts that he won't make for himself here. He actually helped put me in touch with a source of information early in my tenure here. But I believe in every man posting for himself.

[Chris Davidson]

Pat I would doubt that any of the witnesses I posted were joking :

Mr. RANKIN - Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. CURRY - To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN - Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. CURRY - Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. RANKIN - How many feet do you mean?

Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps, and this is Just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. RANKIN - Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. CURRY - A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.

Mr. RANKIN - Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. CURRY - This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. RANKIN - Did you hear any more than three shots?

CURRY places limo when first rifle shot is heard at Z-313, followed by 2 more shots in rapid succession where the limo only moves another 15-20-30 feet further during the shooting.

Same testimony as

BREHM

J NEWMAN

J HILL

EMMETT HUDSON

But it is peculiar that you know better, it is not a surprise that you needed to use all government witnesses to promote your perspective. You do realize that JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy and that this treason'es act was covered-up?

Please stop playing games and get serious about evaluating this evidence, I have posted testimony from around 40 witnesses that support the first shot occurring at Z-313, I know that is significantly more than can be put forward to bolster any other scenario /// and I can post many more if need be.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Station C is on a line drawn along the west curb line of Houston Street in a direct line, and station C is at a point along that line that is in line with where the car would have turned coming around that corner. It is on a line which is an extension of the west curb line of Houston Street.

Station C = 2+34.5

Why don't we use that as the corner of Elm And Houston.

Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY - Then we heard this report.

Mr. RANKIN - Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?

Mr. CURRY - I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.

Mr. RANKIN - How fast were you going then?

Mr. CURRY - I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. RANKIN - Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY - We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.

Mr. RANKIN - Yes.

Mr. DULLES - What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?

Mr. CURRY - Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.

Mr. DULLES - Between your car and the President's car?

Mr. CURRY - Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.

Station# 2+34.5 + 200ft = 4+34.5 = Curry position, reporting first shot

Limo approx 100ft behind at Station# 3+34.5

Z313 head shot @ Station# 4+65.3

Distance from Limo to Z313 at first described shot = 130ft, via Curry's testimony.

chris

Edited December 21, 2014 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Davidson]

Pat I would doubt that any of the witnesses I posted were joking :

Mr. RANKIN - Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. CURRY - To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN - Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. CURRY - Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. RANKIN - How many feet do you mean?

Mr. CURRY - I would say perhaps, and this is Just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. RANKIN - Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. CURRY - A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.

Mr. RANKIN - Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. CURRY - This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. RANKIN - Did you hear any more than three shots?

CURRY places limo when first rifle shot is heard at Z-313, followed by 2 more shots in rapid succession where the limo only moves another 15-20-30 feet further during the shooting.

Same testimony as

BREHM

J NEWMAN

J HILL

EMMETT HUDSON

But it is peculiar that you know better, it is not a surprise that you needed to use all government witnesses to promote your perspective. You do realize that JFK was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy and that this treason'es act was covered-up?

Please stop playing games and get serious about evaluating this evidence, I have posted testimony from around 40 witnesses that support the first shot occurring at Z-313, I know that is significantly more than can be put forward to bolster any other scenario /// and I can post many more if need be.

Or,

If you would like to apply this to the Curry testimony you have supplied, by all means, do so.

30.2ft/5.5 seconds = 5.49ft per sec = 3.74mph

chris

P.S.

Might keep in mind, which shots Mary Woodward on TMWKK described as being the "exploding head shot".

Altgen's for that matter, also.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Chris Davidson

[Robert Mady]

SSA LAWSON : REPORT :" As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. "

Watch the BRONSON Film and you can get glimpses of the lead car thru the tree, the lead car is almost to the underpass.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Robert Mady

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

In post 164 you claim the image shows the lead car is almost at the underpass.

Elm street is just under 500 feet long. The point you indicate is "almost" at the underpass is actually just over 100 feet from the underpass.

James.