David Josephs Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 On that thread from Nov 2014 you wrote: (1.0) The JFK Killers wanted the American public to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was representing COMMUNISM, and specifically FIDEL CASTRO by killing JFK. (1.1) The person who first came out with the "Lone Shooter" doctrine was therefore CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers. (1.2) My point is -- WHOEVER IT WAS who came up with the "Lone Shooter" theory -- that person was by definition CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers. I am up to my elbows in Mexico City. On the morning of 11/23 the STATE dept has someone in Nuevo Laredo who has the information of "Oswald" crossing the border back to the US by AUTO. This employee conveys that the information does not say which mode of transportation he used, and then later says that "AUTO" was a mistake... Paul, the trip to Mexico was created to incriminate Oswald as working thru Cuba to get to Russia when he didnot have to bother with Cuba at all. The evidence offered up to the end of November about that time was that Oswald did get money from the Cubans and was ushered in and out of Mexico with others - yet the State dept immediately contradicts this info... not the FBI. And then IN&S gets involved. I believe you may wish to rethink Wrone's conclusion until there is some evidence to back it - yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) On that thread from Nov 2014 [Paul Trejo] wrote: (1.0) The JFK Killers wanted the American public to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was representing COMMUNISM, and specifically FIDEL CASTRO by killing JFK. (1.1) The person who first came out with the "Lone Shooter" doctrine was therefore CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers. (1.2) My point is -- WHOEVER IT WAS who came up with the "Lone Shooter" theory -- that person was by definition CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers. I am up to my elbows in Mexico City. On the morning of 11/23 the STATE dept has someone in Nuevo Laredo who has the information of "Oswald" crossing the border back to the US by AUTO. This employee conveys that the information does not say which mode of transportation he used, and then later says that "AUTO" was a mistake... Paul, the trip to Mexico was created to incriminate Oswald as working thru Cuba to get to Russia when he didnot have to bother with Cuba at all. The evidence offered up to the end of November about that time was that Oswald did get money from the Cubans and was ushered in and out of Mexico with others - yet the State dept immediately contradicts this info... not the FBI. And then IN&S gets involved. I believe you may wish to rethink Wrone's conclusion until there is some evidence to back it - yes? <snip> OK, David; by the numbers: (1.0) I'm fine with all the Mexico City evidence you've presented -- yet we don't interpret the same data in the same way. (1.1) The Nuevo Laredo report of OSWALD crossing the border back to the US by automobile, could coincide with the claims of Harry Dean, who says that Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove OSWALD into Mexico, and back to the US again, in their car. (1.2) The reason that the Nuevo Laredo officials were late in their report, and also changed their report, is because the FBI was carefully controlling all JFK case evidence. (1.3) That is, the FBI was literally manipulating evidence in the JFK case, when it might point to any accomplices that OSWALD might have had. (1.4) Plausibly, the FBI told the Nuevo Laredo officials that the report *must* confirm their preferred reports of OSWALD riding the bus to and from Mexico. That's why the AUTO vanished. (2.0) As for incriminating OSWALD, it made (makes) no difference if OSWALD was serving the USSR or Cuba, because the USSR and Cuba had a treaty. In 1959 one could separate the two politically -- but after 1960 that became implausible. (3.0) The idea that OSWALD got money from some Cubans, and was part of a caravan, also harmonizes with the claims of Harry Dean. (3.1) Harry Dean's fuller story is that Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove OSWALD to Mexico City for a variety of purposes, including a meeting with WWII war hero Guy Gabaldon, who was then impersonating a CIA Agent, who would give OSWALD $500 (which amounts to $5,000 in 2015, adjusted for inflation). (3.2) Gabaldon would also give OSWALD two simple instructions: (i) go settle in Dallas; and (ii) wait for further instructions. Oswald did that. (3.3) The stories about the September 1963 "Cuban" cash were still fresh in November (perhaps because Loran Hall was part Cuban). Yet even at the end of November the LBJ Administration was only warming up with the "Lone Shooter" theory they were going to force upon the American public. (3.4) So, the State Department, the FBI and the INS had to dance around a few days to set their ducks in a row with regard to the "Lone Shooter" mandate from J. Edgar Hoover. No big deal. (4.0) With regard to Professor Wrone's assertion that J. Edgar Hoover was the first to pronounce the "Lone Shooter" theory, I will continue to accept it. (4.1) Professor David Wrone is widely recognized as one of America's foremost historians. His opinion, IMHO, is worth ten less qualified opinions. He did the research. (4.2) On the contrary, David, it is up to his detractors to present an alternative. Who was the first to pronounce the "Lone Shooter" theory of Lee Harvey OSWALD? Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 4, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Paul Trejo, Your post #467 -- It cites opinions. You've got me partly convinced: One group wanted to portray Oswald as a communist. Another group wanted to portray him as a lone nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Paul Trejo, Your post #467 -- It cites opinions. You've got me partly convinced: One group wanted to portray Oswald as a communist. Another group wanted to portray him as a lone nut. Yes, Jon, exactly right. IMHO this is the key to understanding Lee Harvey OSWALD and his role in the JFK murder, as well as the mess made of the Warren Report. By carefully and studiously separating the JFK Kill Team (LHO a Communist) from the JFK Cover-up Team (LHO a Lone Nut) we can finally analyze the data of the JFK murder, and make better sense of it. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 4, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Paul Trejo, Your post #467 -- It cites opinions. You've got me partly convinced: One group wanted to portray Oswald as a communist. Another group wanted to portray him as a lone nut. Yes, Jon, exactly right. IMHO this is the key to understanding Lee Harvey OSWALD and his role in the JFK murder, as well as the mess made of the Warren Report. By carefully and studiously separating the JFK Kill Team (LHO a Communist) from the JFK Cover-up Team (LHO a Lone Nut) we can finally analyze the data of the JFK murder, and make better sense of it. Regards, --Paul Trejo Trejo, Why don't you believe in P.D. Scott's theory of pre-planned "phases" in the cover up, phases which were orchestrated, in advance, by a mastermind who could arrange such things, who could plant a "trojan virus" (so to speak) in "the intelligence system," someone like James Jesus Angleton? Too complicated? To subtle? Or because you can't integrate it into your Grand Theory Of The Assassination? --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I do not believe in a pre-planned cover-up. The cover-up occurred naturally. The assassination was planned carefully. Setting up Oswald was planned carefully. If Tippit's murder was part of the assassination plan, it was planned carefully. James Humes's behavior was not pre-planned. It may have been orchestrated, but it was not pre-planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I do not believe in a pre-planned cover-up. The cover-up occurred naturally. The assassination was planned carefully. Setting up Oswald was planned carefully. If Tippit's murder was part of the assassination plan, it was planned carefully. James Humes's behavior was not pre-planned. It may have been orchestrated, but it was not pre-planned. Jon, Have you read Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics and the Death of JFK? How about Oswald and the CIA by John Newman? Just wonderin'... --Tommy Ah ha! Just read your post again. So, the cover up was orchestrated, but it wasn't planned ! Interesting.... Off subject, perhaps: Why in your humble opinion, did the people who impersonated Oswald over the phone in Mexico City seem to make a point of connecting Oswald with Kostikov? And why do you think Angleton went back and forth "on record" as to whether or not Kostikov really was with "Department 13?" And doesn't the timing of Angleton's going back and forth on that critical issue seem kinda interesting to you, Jon? Edited March 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Very interesting POV Paul... Thanks for sharing it. Bundy's call to AF-1 on 11/22 where it is said that Ozzie was the man and there is no conspiracy - you buy into that as fact? I simply do not believe LBJ was that smart to understand what would be necessary at the autopsy. He would be under the control of the same people who just killed his boss and were now putting a target on his back should he not play along. Hoover was not involved with Bethesda. Hoover did not steal the body from Parkland. The Joint Chiefs and their associated "Industrial Congressional Complex" stood head and shoulders above LBJ, JEH and even the CIA. Without the Military, the CIA was toothless (imho) All Hoover and LBJ could do was follow orders and engage the cover-up. FBI to create the necessary evidence, LBJ to create the Commission, CIA to confuse the issue as much as possible and NOBODY - repeat NOBODY bothered the military. Not ONI, not MIA or MID. The CIA runs interference for the Military at every turn. The State Dept, CIA and IN&S were painting Oswald into a Cuban/Russian conspiracy starting on October 8th. And even after proving it was not Oswald in Mexico, the evidence continues to tell us that Oswald was there. Alvarado tells an amazing story of a deep conspiracy while we come to learn that he was a CIA asset. Phillips even gets in on interrogating him... Do you believe that Hoover and/or LBJ could tell LeMay, Anderson, McDonald & Wheeler what to do with their command? Now what about Bundy and Harriman? Who would have told Galloway and Burkley to do what they did? IMO certainly not LBJ or Hoover... At the time Navy reps were Anderson and McDonald yet from 1961-1963 there was quite a bit of shuffling going on. I will most certainly look more deeply into the "Lone Nut" situation per Wrone - thanks for the assist. DJ OK, David, once again by the numbers: (1.0) I have no problem with the fact that McGeorge Bundy called Air Force One on the afternoon that JFK was murdered, while LBJ was on board, to indicate the "Lone Nut" theory. (1.1) That occurred at 2:38pm (slightly before 3pm) CST. That could easily correspond to Dr. Wrone's claim that J. Edgar Hoover came up with the "Lone Nut" alibi in Washington D.C. before 3pm CST. (1.2) The matching context is that McGeorge Bundy called from Washington DC -- the location where Hoover was. The theory was Hoover's, and evidently LBJ heard it first through Bundy. (2.0) As for the autopsy issue, I'm confident that LBJ left that mess to the FBI. It was the problem of the FBI to manipulate all evidence in the JFK case that might tend to contradict Hoover's "Lone Nut" scenario. (2.1) The FBI would make it very clear that there could be no evidence of "accomplices" or "conspiracy." Nothing could be allowed to contradict the "Lone Nut" theory. (3.0) LBJ was under the control of nobody. LBJ simply trusted the FBI to do "whatever" to ensure the construction of the "Lone Nut" theory for the American Public. (3.1) Again, David, the "Lone Nut" theory of OSWALD was by the JFK COVER-UP Team, and it was diametrically opposed to the "FPCC Communist" theory OSWALD by the JFK KILL Team. (3.2) By promoting the "Lone Nut" theory along with Hoover and the FBI, President Johnson was opposing the JFK Kill Team, who wanted to (i) invade Cuba by killing Fidel Castro; and (ii) roll-back all Civil Rights laws since 1954. (3.3) As history shows, LBJ did neither of those things. (4.0) Respectfully, David, Hoover had a lot more power over Bethesda and Parkland than you give him credit for. (4.1) But it wasn't on a personal basis -- the FBI, by virtue of its special authority in the USA has a lot of weight and credit with the US Military, with the CIA, with the Federal Government, and so also with all their subordinates. (4.2) The FBI exerted tremendous influence at both Parkland and Bethesda -- probably through the Secret Service and various US Military lieutenants. (4.3) Yet their purpose, IMHO, was to enforce Hoover's (and now LBJ's) mandate that anything that contradicted the "Lone Nut" scenario had to be squashed. (4.4) Naturally this would compromise the medical data more than any other data. (4.5) The JFK X-rays had to be hidden for decades -- because they showed damage from at least six bullets, some of which were Full-metal-jacket, and some of which were Frangible bullets. Proof of "accomplices." (4.6) The JFK brain had to "disappear" -- because it showed fragments of multiple bullets -- both FMJ and Frangible. (4.7) This was not the doing of the JFK Killers -- they wanted OSWALD to look like a part of a Communist Conspiracy. The multiple bullet holes would have been praised by them. (4.8) On the contrary, manipulation of the medical evidence was done by the highest levels of the US Government for purposes of National Security. LBJ himself mandated it. How could they possibly refuse? (5.0) In no way did the JCS or the "military-industrial complex" stand above LBJ, Hoover and CIA. Clearly the US needs the military to enforce its laws and treaties -- however, that does not prove that they ever refused to follow civilian orders according to the Constitution. (5.1) The US Military also cooperated with the FBI and the whole Federal Government in Hoover's "Lone Nut" theory which had now become LBJ's mandate for National Security. (5.2) How could they possibly refuse...according to the Constitution? (5.3) I repeat -- Hoover came up with the "Lone Nut" theory before 3pm CST, and told LBJ (evidently through McGeorge Bundy) and LBJ thought it was a GREAT IDEA. LBJ quickly adopted it and presented it as his own opinion. (5.4) It was not a PLANNED idea. It was entirely UNPLANNED. But it was a matter of National Security. Without it, the USA would probably have burst in to riots in the streets -- at the peak of the Cold War. (5.5.) LBJ gave the order. The whole Federal Government obeyed their Commander in Chief. FBI, SS, CIA, JCS, State Department -- everybody. (5.6) The US Military *always* -- repeat *always* -- takes orders from its funding source -- the US Congress and the Commander-in-Chief. (6.0) By all the evidence I can see, David, it was only Guy Banister and Company in NOLA that painted Oswald as a Cuban/Russian conspirator. (6.1) Nor did this 1963 phenomenon start on October the 8th. Rather, it started on April the 14th. (7.0) Nobody seriously doubts the Mexico City episode anymore -- not after the late CIA release of of The Lopez Report in 2003. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 12, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I do not believe in a pre-planned cover-up. The cover-up occurred naturally. The assassination was planned carefully. Setting up Oswald was planned carefully. If Tippit's murder was part of the assassination plan, it was planned carefully. James Humes's behavior was not pre-planned. It may have been orchestrated, but it was not pre-planned. Jon, Have you read Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics and the Death of JFK? How about Oswald and the CIA by John Newman? Just wonderin'... --Tommy Ah ha! Just read your post again. So, the cover up was orchestrated, but it wasn't planned ! Interesting.... Off subject, perhaps: Why, in your humble opinion, did the people who impersonated Oswald over the phone in Mexico City seem to make a point of connecting Oswald with Kostikov? And why do you think Angleton went back and forth "on record" as to whether or not Kostikov really was with "Department 13?" And doesn't the timing of Angleton's going back and forth on that critical issue seem kinda interesting to you, Jon? Edited (once again NOT "by the numbers") and bumped... Edited March 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I do not believe in a pre-planned cover-up. The cover-up occurred naturally. The assassination was planned carefully. Setting up Oswald was planned carefully. If Tippit's murder was part of the assassination plan, it was planned carefully. James Humes's behavior was not pre-planned. It may have been orchestrated, but it was not pre-planned. Very well put, Jon. We agree 100% on these points. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 5, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Tommy, I've read "Deep Politics". It opened my eyes to the role of drug trading in American politics. I was in Viet Nam and was aware of drug trading there. As an M.I. officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Tommy, I've read "Deep Politics". It opened my eyes to the role of drug trading in American politics. I was in Viet Nam and was aware of drug trading there. As an M.I. officer. Wow! So it's true, huh? In that case you might want to read Strength of the Wolf by Valentine. Not sure how accurate he is in all of his accusations, though. Particularly what he says about a former South Vietnamese military officer or politician who emigrated to the U.S. and whose name of course I forget now... SO, what did you think about what Scott had to say about the Oswald / Kostikov thing? And what about Oswald and the CIA ? Have you had an opportunity to read that yet? And I forgot to ask you in my earlier post: "Have you read Bill Simpich's State Secret yet? --Tommy PS It's interesting that Ruby's brother "Hyman" (sp? LOL) was convicted of being in possession of two ounces of heroin in Chicago back in the day, and if I remember correctly was somehow associated with Paul Roland Jones, the mafia guy who tried to bribe Dallas sheriff Guthrie and set up Ruby as the manager of a proposed restaurant / gambling "den" in Dallas in 1947. But what's really interesting is how the Federal Bureau of Narcotics cooperated with the CIA in MKULTRA ,etc, and how they both protected certain drug traffickers in exchange for "national security" type "insider" information... Edited March 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Agree with you Tommy about the FBN and CIA MKULTRA. Peter Dale Scott opened lots of eyes, including Newman and Simpich. I haven't read Strength of the Wolf yet, though it is downloaded and waiting. I also agree with David when he places the Joint Chiefs and Bundy and Harriman above LBJ and Hoover. It comes down to whether you believe we live in a democracy with civilian rule and elected officials having real power, or in an oligarchy of ruling families and corporate heads for whom the military brass actually work. This part of the forum, peopled by researchers and concerned citizens, knows that JFK himself feared the Joint Chiefs. He took it seriously enough that he convinced John Frankenheimer to make a movie from the book Seven Days in May and film some of it in the White House. The actual exchanges between JFK and his Joint Chiefs, as reported by James Douglass in JFK and the Unspeakable, are frightening and revealing. This is the book that RFK Jr. recommends, I take that very seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Agree with you Tommy about the FBN and CIA MKULTRA. Peter Dale Scott opened lots of eyes, including Newman and Simpich. I haven't read Strength of the Wolf yet, though it is downloaded and waiting. I also agree with David when he places the Joint Chiefs and Bundy and Harriman above LBJ and Hoover. It comes down to whether you believe we live in a democracy with civilian rule and elected officials having real power, or in an oligarchy of ruling families and corporate heads for whom the military brass actually work. This part of the forum, peopled by researchers and concerned citizens, knows that JFK himself feared the Joint Chiefs. He took it seriously enough that he convinced John Frankenheimer to make a movie from the book Seven Days in May and film some of it in the White House. The actual exchanges between JFK and his Joint Chiefs, as reported by James Douglass in JFK and the Unspeakable, are frightening and revealing. This is the book that RFK Jr. recommends, I take that very seriously. Yes, Paul, I like that book very much except for the part where he tries to lend credence to that Air Force sergeant who claimed to have been on a big AF plane that landed and took off again from the banks of the Trinity River in Dallas on 11/22/63... Thanks for the feedback. --Tommy Edited March 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I do not believe in a pre-planned cover-up. The cover-up occurred naturally. The assassination was planned carefully. Setting up Oswald was planned carefully. If Tippit's murder was part of the assassination plan, it was planned carefully. James Humes's behavior was not pre-planned. It may have been orchestrated, but it was not pre-planned. OK, Jon, now look at the implications of this position - if the JFK Cover-up was unplanned, then it wasn't part of the JFK Murder -- which was carefully planned. IMHO, this is a revolution in JFK research -- every source (that I know about) has presumed that the Cover-up of the JFK murder in some way supported the JFK Kill Team. Most JFK conspiracy materials just crumble away into dust when we separate the Cover-up Team from the Kill Team. Lee Harvey OSWALD remains an innocent Patsy -- but now the JFK Killers aren't seen as part of the US Government. This is a paradigm shift. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 5, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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